Oral History Program Todd Oberndorfer Interviewed by HallieKate Briggs 31 January 2022 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Todd Oberndorfer Interviewed by HallieKate Briggs 31 January 2022 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Oberndorfer, Todd, an oral history by HallieKate Briggs, 31 January 2022, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Todd Oberndorfer conducted over Zoom by HallieKate Briggs on January 31, 2022. Todd discusses his involvement with arts in Ogden, including podcasting and the creation of the Nine Rails Creative District. Note: Active listening, transitions in dialogue (such as “um,” “so,” “you know,” etc.), and false starts in conversations are not included in transcription for ease of reading. All additions to transcript noted with brackets. HKB: It is 3:12 p.m. on Monday, January 31, 2022, and this integral interview is being conducted over Zoom. My name is HallieKate Briggs, and I will be conducting this interview on the history and impact of contemporary art in Ogden as part of my Bachelor's of Integrated Studies capstone project. This project will be housed in the Stewart Library Special Collections at Weber State University. My interviewee is Todd Oberndorfer, whom I've heard referred to as a man who wears many caps, only some of which include the arts outreach manager and academic advisor for Weber State University. You're a host of the Nine Rails Arts Podcast, you're vice chair of the Ogden City Arts Advisory Committee, and you're a board member of the Weber Arts Council, is that all correct? TO: Yeah, we might even add a few things, but that's a good start [laughs]. HKB: More than a few [laughs]. Thank you so much, Todd, again, for both your time and your willingness to participate. We were just discussing your history here with Weber State, so go ahead and continue with that. TO: Perfect, that sounds like a good place to start. I have been fortunate my entire life to be working in the arts in some capacity. I graduated high school in the Midwest 1 in the early 90s, and I started my education at a small junior college in Kansas City called Johnson County Community College in fine art, drawing, painting, that sort of thing. I moved out to Utah in the mid-90s, and I rather quickly went back to school again. I think I went to Weber for a semester, and then I went to the University of Utah for another few semesters. For the most part, it was in fine art drawing, more foundational type things. Then I got a job in graphic design, so I took what ended up being about a 14-year break from school. I ended up working in the arts in some capacity for about 14 years, moved around a lot, went on all sorts of adventures. I ended up back in Ogden with what was gonna be a visit, and a visit turned into finishing my undergrad. For the first time in 15 years at least—14, 15 years—I was focusing on my art and what that meant. I worked in graphic design for probably about 10 years professionally, so I assumed that I would be finishing up in the graphic design program, right? I took one printmaking class. It was a 2D class that was required. As a graphic designer, I was art director for screen printing companies, so it was massproduced, production work. I never thought of it as truly an artistic job, which it was, but it was just rapid production work. When I had the chance to take a printmaking class, I just connected. It was a way for me to work with 2D work, but then also use my graphic design skills. My focus is sort of activist-driven art. I absolutely adore living in Utah, but there's certain things I have to get out, and that was the way for to express 2 myself. That ended up being the theme; my thesis work was in relation to these late-1960s French protest posters and that type of thing. I think it was during that time that I started waking up a little bit to Ogden and potential there, as far as the art scene goes. I was fortunate when I was in school to have a really good circle around me. [We] became really good friends. One of my really good friends that I graduated with was a woman named Lorie Buckley, who you've spoken with. I don't know her full title now, but she essentially runs Ogden City Arts. HKB: [She does] a lot. TO: Yeah, exactly. She also wears a lot of hats. The two of us really helped each other get through that program. Some time passed, and she started working for Ogden City probably about a year before I got a job at Weber State as the arts outreach manager and academic advisor for the Department of Visual Art and Design. I really do thank her, to some degree, as inspiration to really start digging in and start making an impact in the arts in Ogden. I had already started that in some capacity. In 2010, I started podcasting. The very first podcast that I did was called Ogden Outdoor Adventure with a friend of mine. It was a live radio show at Weber State University, when their radio station was a live radio station and not a digital station. We did that for probably a year or so before we started releasing our episodes as podcasts. A little bit of time passed and we started a company called The Banyan Collective, and our mission, we had sort of big plans as far as being a resource for arts adventure and a place to go for that information. 3 We saw in 2010, 2012, a lot of crossover, because what I brought to the picture was a little bit more on the art side, and my podcasting partner, R. Brandon Long, was more of your outdoor resource. He is a general manager for a company called Gear:30, and he started that company at some point. It's a high-end outdoor retail company. We found that there was a lot of crossover between arts and adventure, and that way we could each bring our own loves into this format. Time passed, and we started a podcast called the Van Sessions, and that's essentially where we threw musicians into a 1987 van and we had them play and then we got to know them between songs. That's celebrating about six years now. Around that same time, Brandon actually beat me to Ogden City Arts Advisory Committee, works for Lorie's department, Ogden City's arts and humanities—I think Arts and Culture is their full title over there. He was on as a board member, and then he became chair, and then I think I came on around that same time. I was representing the chair for arts and education because of my crossover working, essentially arts outreach for Weber State University. I just wrapped up my term as the chair last year, like right now I am called the past chair, so I represent in sort of an executive capacity, but I just offer advice. We had a very busy year last year, so we just wanted to keep that momentum going. To tell you the truth—and we've already established all these things, right? —I think what really got me interested was the buzz about this creative district that was being created. I had an opportunity to join a steering committee, and it was just a small number of people from the community that was offering 4 essentially their two cents when they were putting together this plan for this district. I wanted to know more information, and my way of learning more information was to start joining committees and panels. It started taking up a little bit more of my time, and that's when I became close friends with a certain group of people that you've chatted with already. There was a gentleman named Jake McIntire, who runs a company called Union Creative Agency. That was around the time I started working with him as sort of a consultant representative, to some degree. He was highly, highly involved. I started attending more of those meetings. If you're following dates, you can probably track those down, or maybe you can refresh me on the dates when that started. Sara Meess was obviously one of the people that spearheaded that. Jake was part of that as well, but that has been years in the making. HKB: Years. Dates for what exactly? I am in the middle of crafting a timeline, so I think I can help with this. TO: Okay, good. Those first conversations about the creative district before it was named, before we had a name for it. HKB: Jake originally approached Ogden City about his Union project and his thesis work back in 2015. TO: That sounds about right. HKB: So, we're like, seven years in the making now. TO: Yeah. He definitely had a head start on me by a few years. That was when I was wrapping up my undergrad, but I was still doing the podcasting at that time. I'd love to sort of jump forward just a little bit to the next step that The Banyan 5 Collective, my podcasting company, jumped to, and that was this Van Sessions was going to be a resource for... Ogden City has a First Friday Art Stroll every first Friday of the month. We wanted to draw more foot traffic to the west end, so to Union Station. Because we had the ability to podcast, we've been doing it for quite some time, we had this van, and we were gonna MC, make comments that people could hear as they're walking up and down the street. I think it was Brandon that came up with the musicians. We set up shop in front of Union Station and opened a little roundabout for the first half, at least, of our adventure. About the first three years of our life, we'd just set up, and for the most part, it was year-round, so we were cold and in the snow. We were set up on the ice over there. Then a woman, Brandy Shay, was good friends with Thaine Fischer. She recommended our name to Thaine, so Brandon and I sat down Thaine about collaborating with this big, janky building that was in really, really bad shape. I mean, big, beautiful building, but it was... HKB: [Laughs] It took a process to get there. TO: It took a process, yeah. It was something else. About a year before the building was even, you know, he gave tours originally. He had special permission, and hard hat tours, 'cause you still had to wear hard hats 'cause it was a work site, there was no question. We set up just east of what's now The Monarch building. There's a parking lot, and we set up the van, and we started doing our Van Sessions in that parking lot. For me, it was to obviously start driving some interest into that space. Also, where we wanted to get some more foot traffic to the west, we wanted to also 6 start bringing some foot traffic further East. In that area at that time, you weren't doing a lot of walking, especially at night, in that stretch. If you remember, this is when the motel was still there, well before they tore it down for the Plaza, and this is before— HKB: Also a mess in its own right. TO: Yeah. I didn't feel particularly safe all the time; it wasn't super well lit. It was before The Argo House was built, you know, another art-based building and everything. It was one of these where Thaine had a vision and he was very good about relaying that vision, so a lot of people got on board, including myself, as far as how he saw things coming. While that was happening, Ogden City was having a similar vision as well. I just happened to be in a good place at a good time, and then had my own ideas for where we might go. Our way of contributing was to have the van in this space. We set up some little pop-ups and we started getting some audience members. We did that for quite some time before we were even able to pull the van into the building itself. Once we were able to do that, then it sort of took on its own identity. At this point, we do have a recording studio/little lounge hangout spot inside The Monarch. It's the equivalent of two studio spaces. We have this 1960 RV trailer, it's very retrolooking, iconic RV trailer, and we set that up as our recording studio for our podcasts, and we built out a deck and the whole thing. For our board meetings, we set up podcasts sometimes, it's like a six-, eight-foot picnic table that's just set out outside of it. 7 I think around that time, as far as offering more, as far as my contributions to this project, I had the opportunity when I was working, as I still am, with the arts outreach manager. I had a really good friend that was doing a now-defunct artist residency program at Summit, Powder Mountain. He was bringing in an artist named Jane Kim to do a residency, and she was working on a piece. We brought her down to give a talk to the students on campus. It just so happened that in that meeting was, if I'm not mistaken, Thaine was there, Scott Springer was there, the ex-dean of the college. Scott Patria, I believe, was there. He was the gentleman that ran a company called Ogden First, which is now Ogden Contemporary Arts. Let's just say all the all the right people were in the right room at the right time. Jane Kim ended up doing three massive projects in town, if you're familiar with her work. She did the Monarch in Moda, the big butterfly mural on The Monarch, that ended up in a capacity, I guess, renaming that building because of that. Did Thaine tell you that story? HKB: He's not told me about the story, but I can connect the dots. I was, again, working with Lydia at the time that Jane Kim was working on that piece inside of the arts building on campus. TO: Yeah. I think that Thaine had a different name in mind for that building, but when he realized that there was gonna be this large iconic butterfly, this monarch, that people would start calling it that. You know, the butterfly building, or the monarch building, so he sort of redirected the conversation and it became The Monarch. HKB: I think that was the right call. 8 TO: I think it was the right call, and it's such an iconic name as well. Jane was able to come into town. It turned into a really inspirational city-wide arts project. It was significant to me in so many ways. She worked for a month downtown doing this beautiful one in the space by The Monarch, and then she designed some banners for along the street at the Ogden Nature Center. Then she was the resident artist on campus, which is when you were over there, so she did the atrium at the Kimball Arts space, which involved—she brought out a few artists from San Francisco, and then I believe three students helped, and then another local artist. It really started bringing in local artists with national visiting artists as well, so that was incredibly satisfying for me to see that. I was able to help on that one; I was one of the artists that assisted in the atrium. As an artist, that was also inspiring to me. The scale of those pieces really inspired me as far as moving forward with Ogden City's public art. When the time came years later, and perhaps this is something that Lorie Buckley talked about as far as advancing our own public art, there was a gentleman named Don Rimx that did these massive murals down on Grant. Have you been over to Grant downtown? HKB: Yes. TO: The big murals across from—? HKB: I've been through Grant. TO: Yeah. There's five massive murals down there. Essentially, put a call out, and we chose this artist that's from Miami, a Puerto Rican artist from Miami. The scale was very large, super iconic, worked with locals and the community itself to really 9 source the subject matter. I can't wait for you to see these pieces. You're gonna absolutely love them. They're massive. He moved here with his wife and his kids for—I wanna get the time right, 'cause he was so fast—probably about a month and a half, so he became a local while he was working and really became part of the Ogden community. For me, this was just an ideal way to inspire local artists. He gave at least a couple of art talks. You mentioned earlier one of my podcasts that came after Van Sessions, it's called the Nine Rails Arts Podcast. Again, we're just looking to discuss art in 2022 to some degree, right? I wanna tell the story of the Nine Rails Creative District itself and give me a chance to chat with my friends. I did have a chance to sit down with Don and his team. I've had multiple opportunities to sit down and talk to the design team for the Dumke Arts Plaza, which was another project that— HKB: Just finished listening to that episode. TO: Yeah. Jake McIntire sourced out myself and another gentleman named Cam McLeod to help him out on the engagement team for that project, and that was really satisfying for me too. Basically, when Ogden City sourced out that design team, they also had to work with local creatives. They worked with Io Land architect, Shalae Larsen has a company, and then they also worked with Jake and his company, Union Creative. Union Creative's piece of that puzzle was really the community engagement campaign, so we worked for quite some time. We had open houses, and we had a website, and we honestly did everything we 10 could to get feedback with what people wanted in that space, and then to also share some of ideas that we had. That was really, really satisfying. Going back even further, at some point in the process, well before... So, the Nine Rails Creative District, that name has been established, and we got a contract, Jake and Cam and myself, to come up with ideas for public projects for the Nine Rails Creative District. The one that we really sort of clicked with, we all agreed on, was developing that corner just west of The Monarch. There used to be a motel there that was… Let's just say it was in disrepair. There's all sorts of words that have been used. It wasn't in the best shape, and the clientele wasn't necessarily inviting for a lot of people to walk through in that area. Once the city did their part, bought the property and leveled it out, then Jake and Cam and I pitched this idea of developing it as like an arts-based park or plaza or something. So yeah, being able to follow things through from a seed of an idea to an opening of, you know, a multimillion-dollar arts-based public plaza has been very, very satisfying. I think the biggest thing for me through all of these years is the idea of keeping this momentum going, right? Even in the case where you were working at the Shaw Art Gallery space and we had a visiting artist come through, well, that was a part of that momentum that helped us gain traction and a little bit of attention, and honestly getting the public involved as well. Any time you're presenting something new, it's not something you can do overnight, right? So, kind of slowly, but surely, we start introducing some new ideas. 11 The Monarch turned out to be this crazy experiment that, in all practical purposes, as far as I'm concerned, has been a success. I think that the gallery spaces themselves are phenomenal. The building is incredibly inspiring, it has so much history to it, and it turned into the heart of that entire district, was this beautiful 1920s parking garage, right? So, you know, Thaine was a—we've had a really good team from the very beginning that have been really, really passionate about putting in the time and the effort and the ideas. Then the one thing that none of this could have been done without is just the public input as well. I think slowly but surely everybody's getting on board. Anybody that does work in the arts may very well embrace the idea of contemporary art in their community and essentially in their life, but the idea contemporary art is not, you know, something that everybody is comfortable with. It's sort of taken some baby steps to introduce this idea of, you know, we're creating these spaces that are destination travel spots for people now. If you're coming out to go skiing, you also could come check out art at Ogden Contemporary Arts or the Shaw Gallery space. 25th street, you know, they've done an incredible job on 25th Street, essentially maintaining all of those buildings from the turn of the century, making it comfortable to walk from, at this point, Union Station all the way up to... We're now probably made it up to the library, and then you're gonna probably see us going even further up into Lester Park once we, knock on wood, get some projects going in that direction. That's definitely the direction I would love to see things going next as far as the Nine 12 Rails Creative District goes, is just pushing the boundary that direction that much more. All right, what questions you got for me? What do we need to touch on to sort of round things out? HKB: Well, I just wanted to ask a couple of questions. You talked about how you originally like, your eyes were opened to the possibilities of art here in Ogden. What do you think is the unique atmosphere that Ogden provides creators and Utah in general? What makes Ogden special in this regard? TO: I think that obviously the environment itself, as an outdoorsy person, you can't beat that. You're nestled up against the mountain. For me, I have to constantly be inspired as an artist, and otherwise it's not... It's like the good and the bad of it. Sometimes it's really frustrating that I need that inspiration, and you'll probably see me get like more withdrawn and a little bit crustier when I don't have it. Being able to step outside—in my case, I love to go snowshoeing—or whatever activity it is that you like to do, right? Go hiking or something. That's the reason why things like artist residency programs work so well, is because we are so fortunate to have the mountains as this backdrop. That makes us so special, as far as location goes, that we're already a destination location because of that. For me, having worked in podcasting and focusing on the outdoor adventure as long as I had, we already have that. I think that adding the arts element into that, there has already been some crossover, but being inspired as an artist is everything, and it's an inspirational location. That really worked for me. 13 I also, on a personal note, you know, I had plenty of subject matter because of, like I said before, sort of this activist-related art that I do. For me, having that also worked as well. I am a big proponent of clean air. We struggle with our air quality here in Utah, so spreading the message on that was something that I really connected to. I think art has really helped further that conversation, right? For me, that was another satisfying way to express what I have to say. As far as moving things forward, starting anything from the ground floor is an incredible opportunity. Even after all of this time that we've all collectively put into starting this sort of new movement in art, we're still at that ground level, so it's a super exciting time for artists. I think that those that aren't on board are just simply not aware of what's going on. So, projects like what you're doing, the podcasting that we do, anything we can do to help get that message out. Obviously, the Twilight Concert Series is another one that has brought loads of people from outside of Ogden. All they need is one night downtown and they're on board. Like, that's all it took. HKB: They're sold. TO: Yeah, they're sold. They can take the train up, enjoy the show, grab some good food, and also just make a night of it as far as visiting some of these art spaces. It's just a matter of getting that word out. I think that any of these small little mountain towns like what we have, we see 'em as these little hidden gems, and so we wanna protect it. You're always keeping that in mind, where you just wanna keep this little secret to ourselves. 14 But I'm in the mindset, and I've been fortunate/no choice, like I've moved around a lot growing up, and I want to invite other people into this beautiful little space that we have. To tell you the truth, more fresh perspectives that come in is gonna develop a little bit different point of view when it comes to art and introducing new art ideas. I think it's important to keep that movement going, as far as fresh perspectives go. A lot of these things are just simply lining up really well. I think that there's still a lot of questions that people have. There's a lot of mystery that's still out there as far as Ogden goes, but the words that are starting to get out as far as contemporary art and just an art destination, as well as this beautiful mountain backdrop we have, it's not just selling points, it's just really interesting. Like, it's truly interesting. The more that gets out, the more we can kind of control the conversation to some degree, you know. It's just a really good timing. Everything's sort of working out. If you can come up with a really good idea, you've a really good chance of making something happen, and what city can you do that in? HKB: You've got an audience, with the city council in particular, that is willing to engage and listen to artists in a way that I think a lot of other cities lack. TO: Yeah, I think I would agree with that. I think it's a time where these decisions simply need to be made now. Development is happening whether we all like it or not, right? Out of necessity, and then just a side effect of interest in a community is, you know, development comes into the picture. With the development also comes—I mean, it can be the good and the bad of developing a city and a 15 location. The more that we can all collectively stand up and say, "Well, with this new development, with this new apartment complex, we also want a small percentage to be devoted to public art pieces," that type of thing. I think it's just increasingly important that this is—and I keep saying the good and the bad of it, 'cause I'm not a huge fan of a lot of development, but it's happening whether we like it or not. Right now, it's really important that those of us that do have—and we all have voices, but those of that, you know, I'm lucky enough to have, in my case, a little podcast production group that can get the word out and influence to some degree the percentage of, in our case, public art, contemporary art that's coming into town. There's a little bit of urgency as well. Right now, it's opportunity, but there's also some urgency to save all of the buildings that we have left. Thaine's doing a good job of that. You go down to Salt Lake, which I definitely appreciate the community down there, but Ogden still has these amazing brick buildings from the turn of the century, and we still have them, right? Fewer and fewer of these cities have these amazing historical spots, and as an artist, there's nothing more inspiring than a little bit of history, you know? The space like The Monarch building and the Bigelow that's next to it is an incredible opportunity, but it's something that we all have to fight for, like now, before it turns into something else entirely. That's a lot of it too, is I think that a lot us realize that, that urgency, and I really hadn't thought about that fully until we're just talking right now, that there is some urgency to protect that and to guide that conversation. 16 HKB: I agree. It's like you said, the development is happening whether we like it or not. That's just the state of things, is this constant change. TO: The state of things, exactly. HKB: Ogden has things to protect, and we have individuals who are dedicated to ensuring that those pieces of history and of art and of community are something that are held close. If things are going to change, we need to continuously speak now and make sure that our voices are heard. TO: I appreciate you saying that. We're very fortunate to have people that are representing us well, right? In this case, some of the people that you've been fortunate to chat with, some of people that I'm fortunate to work with. Not only they're well-spoken and able to express themselves and some of these ideas they have, is that they're all, including myself, humble enough to know that we're not doing any of this by ourself. The more feedback and the more community that we can get on board—these projects are relatively slow in the making, so the more community we have on board, it does speed things up, right? I think that with the Arts Plaza that was definitely a success story. If it wasn't for the Dumke Foundation stepping up, and just there was so many people that came into that conversation at the right time, and there was enough urgency, as far as the Foundation goes, to have this done essentially at the end of last year. Then of course, when Lydia Gravis comes in with Shaw Art Gallery and she books this world-renowned sculptor named Chakaia Booker to come into Ogden, well, I mean, that's almost the capstone to what could be the Ogden art 17 story like 10 years from now. Well, we're just doing that now. We just jump right into it. She works in the most amazing places, and the fact that we're now adding Ogden to all of these big city locations, and not only that. I had the opportunity, when she came out, to do some of the prep for setting up her pieces, and we all went out to dinner a few times, and what an opportunity to meet these artists. She loved Ogden so much. Jane Kim loved it, and her team that had an opportunity to come out. Anyway, I'm a big fan of different perspectives, and it's always nice to introduce what we have to other artists. Hopefully that inspires local artists, but then it also sort of continues the conversation outside of the state, and that's really beneficial too, I think. It's just a balance. You're just trying to find that balance. HKB: There was something that Jake said in our interview that really struck me, and as we talk about— TO: He's so good about that! HKB: He's really good about that! There were a couple things he said; I just felt the world shift beneath me. TO: I don't know what we would do without Jake McIntire, honestly. He got nominated—we do a mayor's award for the arts, and he was arts advocate last year—I believe it was last year—and, you know, couldn't be any more deserving. HKB: Yeah, he absolutely earned it. TO: I hope that everyone knows how much he does. Yeah, anyway, sorry to interrupt you. 18 HKB: No, you're good. There was something that he said, and as we talk about how this whole process of basically growing is something slow and something that's been constantly snowballing. He said that he thinks about it as the development of Ogden isn't necessarily going to see its full potential now, even as it continues to grow, that it's something that we are preparing for future generations. Do you hold with that sentiment? TO: I do, and I'll tell you the truth, once you started saying that, I'm like, "Yep, that was Jake, and he said that." I've learned so much from him, because he does have a lot of experience working with different sizes of cities. I know he's worked with Logan and Salt Lake and Park City and all of these and their arts programs. HKB: Of course he has. TO: Of course, yeah. I have a tendency when I'm working to want to see results in real time, like as they're happening. I feel like I need that somewhat, to keep my own momentum going, but some of the projects that we're working on, and as far as the big sort of capital-A arts in Ogden, this is definitely just kind of setting the foundation, right? We're setting up a foundation. Thaine Fischer said one time that he's not an artist himself, but he wants to set up artists to succeed in Ogden and in his space. He wants provide the tools, he wants to provide the marketing to get the word out about the artists, he wants to provide that. To some degree, that's probably what Jake is saying as well, that these are, to some degree, legacy projects, but we have to set things in motion. We have to protect certain things so that, say for instance in 10 years, there's a local artist or there's an artist that moves to town that changes everything. Somebody 19 we haven't met yet, somebody who may be still in school now, who knows? But if they don't have certain things set in place for them to provide that, then we don't know what that's gonna look like. So, I fully support that statement, and it really is completely true. These are the ideas that they're definitely bigger than—I'm gonna mute for one second so I can cough. HKB: There you go. TO: These are the certain things that we have to set in place for others down the line, or for—I don't have kids, but let's say for instance, Jake does. These are projects that maybe his kids are gonna enjoy, or kind of be in place for them. It does change your thinking, because I naturally want to keep certain momentum, but also to see a certain amount of results every year, right? We can do that, but there's always gonna be certain things that we have to look bigger than that. You have to longer term than that. HKB: Jake has a special skill for saying things in a larger picture. TO: He absolutely does, yeah. That started with some of the decisions that were made. Think about when Roosters went into place on 25th Street, and it was not a place anyone wanted to spend their time was down on 25th Street. It was a pretty frightening place to go. They had the foresight to start protecting those buildings that... I heard somebody say at some point, and it really kind of left an impact on me, that in the 70s in particular, like the 70s and 80s where Ogden was quite poor, we couldn't afford to tear down those buildings on 25th to build new buildings. That's the only reason, to some degree, that a lot of those buildings are 20 still around, is because we just simply didn't have the funds to tear them down, which entirely would have happened to build something new down there. Can you even imagine Ogden without these historic buildings, particularly the ones that are based around 25th Street? It would be a whole different story. Hopefully we continue to do the same thing as far as protecting the space to thrive and to create. Then also, I want artists to come visit and hang out and I want to be inspired by them. I would love to set enough programs up and give local artists enough opportunities so that they're able to do residencies elsewhere, that they can also spread outside of just Ogden. So, it kind of goes both directions. I think what Ogden Contemporary Arts is doing across the board is fantastic. Their contemporary art space is really unique. It's kind of along the lines of the Shaw Gallery space on campus, but as far as being a destination for contemporary art, and hopefully we continue that conversation. Then also introducing—I think that you made some point as far as contemporary is a loaded word for a lot of people, the idea of contemporary art. HKB: It is a uniquely charged term for a lot of people who aren't in the art scene and who don't—and even those who are in the arts scene, they kind of shy away from it, but I think that there's a lot of potential for it. Honestly, I'm a big fan of contemporary art, but I can understand where some of that hesitance comes from, that uncertainty. TO: Yeah, and I think anybody like myself that went through some kind of art education programming of some sort, or maybe you go to workshops, or however 21 you get your art education, that's really what it comes down to. There's a big handful of us, those that are drafting mission statements for the arts plazas and trying to work on art master plans and that type of thing, that we really feel that contemporary art is art that is being created today. That's kind of what it comes down to. It's not really anything beyond that. But I do know that it's all about educating community members about new ideas and new artists and new art forms and maybe something new that they haven't seen before, right? I would even bring it back to, again, that Twilight Concert Series. Something we were somewhat familiar with as far as Salt Lake, their concert series goes, but Ogden hadn't really seen to that level of curation of artists, that type of thing. They were able to introduce that to a new bunch of people up here, and the response has been incredible. Like, that's not just Salt Lake coming up to Ogden. That's a lot of Ogdenites getting out and enjoying that. These bands that I've heard of maybe a third of them sometimes, or half of them, so I'm being introduced to new artists that are coming through town. It's not necessarily frightening. It can be. It can also be exciting and adventurous, the whole process of catching all of this. I think a little bit of slow and steady is good. We will always have community engagement. There's always feedback. We meet every second Tuesday—I want to get that right—I believe second Tuesday of the month for our Ogden City Arts Advisory Committee meetings, and that's open to the public every time. HKB: I may have to drop in. 22 TO: Yeah, we don't have a lot of people that pop in, but the invitation is always there. We have a handful that always comes and says hi, but just know that there is an effort being made to reach out as much as we possibly can, right? These aren't decisions that are being made in some room that's private away from the community. It's not happening like that. There just happens to be a lot of crossover between so many different constituencies. There's so much collaboration in the town. Everything from developers— the fact that there's a developer that is doing these incredible things for the arts in town, like that's pretty great. That's not something you see all the time. You know, the developer is the enemy sometimes. He's not the enemy. Many of our developers in town are doing absolutely incredible things to protect the space and set aside space for use in the arts. That being said, it's still a constant battle for new ideas, and like I said, to keep the momentum going, and to decide what the next focus will be, and to raise money, and to constantly raise money, and to represent the locals. I mean, it really does keep going and it just keeps going. I think that the more of an impact that we can make, like a visual impact that we can make—I'm a visual person. The fact that we had an opening for this Dumke Arts Plaza meant a lot to a lot of us, because it happened. Like, they're doing some landscaping for the spring, but that space is open. It's hard right now, I know there's construction on 25th Street, but it's happening right now. Has anybody talked about—I know it's a little bit early—did anybody talk about the BRT project, that art project for all those bus stops? 23 HKB: No one's talked about it. It's something that I've been kind of reading only vague mentions of as I reviewed the master plan, but no. TO: That's another thing you'll be seeing here pretty soon. Obviously, the BRT is shaping bus rapid transit. It's a dedicated bus line from the train station to Weber State and then over to McKay Dee. It'll be electric busses, and there, like I said, special sort of dedicated lanes between the two, but these bus stops—and there's about a half a dozen of these bus stops and they're kind of on opposite sides of the roads. What Ogden Arts pitched—and those of us in the public arts subcommittee of the arts committee met. We had a call for artists, and we chose some artists, so there's going to be art sandwiched between glass at each of these stops. It's sort of gonna be a nice little art stroll from the station up over to McKay Dee. We know the artists that we've chosen, and I know what they're capable of, but I don't know what the results are going to be. That's another big project that you're gonna be seeing here pretty soon. Public art does so much. They're also working with UTA for that, so some of the funding is coming through UTA, and then some is coming through, you know, Weber State and Ogden City and Weber County, and you kind of name it sort of across the board. One other thing that I want to touch on, as far as having me right here, is one of the summer outreach programs that I do; it's called Arts in the Parks. HKB: I was going to bring that up. TO: Oh, good. It feels a little strange right now off of this last two years being, you know, non-existent. I had to cancel the Arts in the Parks part, because what we 24 do is we gather in six area Ogden City Parks, and I work with Ogden School District, their sack lunch and their nutrition services program, essentially. They pass out food for the kids during the summertime. We set up, and it's a program that was developed about 12 years ago, 11 or 12 years ago, with Science in the Parks. Man named Adam Johnson put that together, and then Kathryn MacKay started—he started Science in the Parks, and Kathryn MacKay started Arts in the Parks where the kids could grab some food, and then they have an opportunity to make art in the park right next door. So, you get some food and you get some art. You get to hang out in the park for an hour and a half, for about two hours, something like that. I inherited that program, like I said, about five years ago, and I cannot wait to get back in the park again. I'm really fortunate. Weber State, big sponsor for that, and then Weber County Ramp Grant has been supporting that program essentially since the beginning. Fingers crossed we're back in the parks again, but every single day of the week is a different activity. You know, we set up in a park for one week and then we go to another park. We do that six weeks in a row. I can't wait to make that happen. I think over the last two years we've had to just roll with things and be as, I don't know, what's the word, pivot. You know, just two years of pivoting. What I did for this last summer was I designed a bilingual Arts in the Parks coloring and activity book. I think it's 26 pages, and I also had little boxes of colored pencils. I was able to pass out I think 5,000 of those last summer. HKB: Wow! 25 TO: So, instead of passing out food in the parks, the nutrition services, through the school district, passed them out at schools, at just building locations. When they picked up food, they also picked up this bilingual coloring book. We did a form of—we did the arts, but maybe not so much the parks. Hopefully we're back to that this next summer. So, talk about a community-based event, that's one thing I look forward to every single year. Fingers crossed. I'm moving forward as if that's happening. HKB: I can't wait to see that. TO: Yeah, it's a program I think that the kids in the parks look forward to. Massive groups of people, which tell you the truth, is also like, I'm apprehensive to get 150 kids together sharing a space. We might have to set things up a little further apart, just for my own anxiety. But at some point we'll get back to sharing long tables and crayons and activities and that sort of thing again. I just don't know what that'll look like. But that's what artists do best, is we pivot and we adapt and we keep moving forward, so whatever it ends up looking like, we know that there's gonna be an Arts in the Parks in Ogden. All right, what else you got? HKB: It was just something that I wanted—we're almost out of time for me, too. I would go on forever, but... TO: I think we could, but we can sort of wrap things up. HKB: I've been given a specific time limit for most of these for transcription payment purposes. But I wanted to talk about contemporary art once again, that it's all about pushing boundaries and challenging new ideas, and that's why people are 26 so hesitant about it. But the amount of open communication that both the city and yourself have shared through your podcasting, through your open committee councils, all of it, it's really done a lot to bridging that gap to our residents. I can't thank you enough for all that you've done for this program and for art and all of the development in Ogden. I'm incredibly grateful. I haven't been here that long, but just in the four years that I've been here at this college, the amount of change that I've seen is just mind-blowing at times. TO: Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I also appreciate that you've been following that as well. That's also inspiring. Whatever we can collectively do to get the word out, because I know that there's certain events that will always bring the people out, but there's so many small events and there's only smaller activities that are equally special. HKB: We just have to do our best. I think it's only a matter of time before we continue to grow and develop. All the time, I'm constantly thinking about that [slogan] that inspired the Nine Rails name, of "You can't get anywhere without coming to Ogden." In a way, I want to see that as kind of a Midwest central point, but this time for outdoor recreation and art and all of these unique activities and atmospheres that Ogden alone offers, and I want to see that same draw. TO: Well, obviously I agree with you 110%. Thank you for putting these interviews together, these chats together. I also love the fact that you'll be wrapping up your program. I can't help but look at things a little bit differently as your advisor, to some degree, I guess. At least your department advisor. I couldn't be prouder of 27 this topic that you're focusing on and whatever we can collectively do to archive this information. I know that's my goal. HKB: I am doing my best, but I really can't downplay the amount of time and effort that everyone else has already put into putting that. It's just a matter of gathering a whole bunch of that information into one place. TO: Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. HKB: I appreciate your time for coming to meet with me today. TO: Oh, that's a nice thing to say. HKB: I've learned so much, and I can't wait to see how Ogden continues to develop. TO: Keep listening to the Nine Rails Arts Podcast. We have some good ones coming up. HKB: I'm so excited. I've been kind of binging those. TO: Good, good. I appreciate that. 28