Oral History Program Frank Lucas Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 27 June 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Frank Lucas Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 27 June 2013 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial houses flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and businesses related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other smaller operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Lucas, Frank, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 27 June 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Frank Lucas June 27, 2013 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Frank Lucas. The interview was conducted on June 27, 2013, by Lorrie Rands. Lucas discusses his memories of him and his mother’s involvement in World War II and the Ogden canteen. LR: Today is June 27, 2013 and we are in the home of Mr. Frank Lucas. We are conducting and oral history interview about his memories of his mother’s and his own involvement with the Ogden canteen during World War II. Mr. Lucas, thank you so much for allowing us to be in your home. To start off, when were you born? FL: I was born July 26, 1930. LR: Were you born here in Ogden? FL: No, I was born in Salt Lake City. My mother had to have a certain woman doctor who practiced in Salt Lake. I was the fourth of four brothers and the family was living in Ogden at the time. LR: So you’re an Ogden native then? FL: Yes. LR: What do you remember about the Union Station canteen in Ogden and your mother’s involvement with it? FL: Well, as I looked at the DVD, “Ogden-The War Years,” it quickly came to my attention that there was more that needed to be told and the first thing that came to my mind was the Union Station and the Red Cross canteen where my mother worked many hours as a volunteer. The war years were an exciting period of 1 time for me. I was a teenager and I was just excited about a bunch of things. I like trains, so I was down at that station every opportunity I had. With Mother volunteering there, I had additional opportunities to be in the station and see the volume of servicemen, and other passengers. Most of the servicemen were on troop trains with just a few on the regular passenger trains. So many trains came through Ogden that most of the stations ten tracks were usually occupied. Because all the trains were powered by steam engines, which require periodic service maintenance, the layover was long enough for the passengers to visit the station and possibly spend some time on 25th Street. 25th Street was a pretty famous place and I’m sure a number of them wanted to get out and see just what 25th Street was about. When I discovered the records at the Red Cross and the details they had of the women that worked there and what went on, it just blew my mind even though I grew up right there. Being a young teenager, I didn’t realize the impact of it. The documents indicate the number of loaves of bread used to make sandwiches and so many dozen cinnamon rolls and cookies, but there were donations as well. People from Box Elder County would bring a bushel of apples or a bushel of peaches and then I thought, “You know, they document all those things, but I don’t think they documented the amount of coffee my mother made.” And I remember. She smelled like she had jumped into the coffee when she came home. She made a volume of coffee and my mother was very proud of the quality that she could put into the coffee making. That was really interesting. 2 As I looked through the roster of the ladies, there were over 200 of them. I ran across a number of names that I was familiar with growing up like Mrs. Cross from the Cross Western Store, she lived down by us. She was just one of the Crosses, they were a big family. Then, I discovered the name of Laura Blanche whose son is my back door neighbor. He was telling me how upset he was one year when he was around 9 or 10-years-old and his mother had to work at the canteen on Christmas Day. He thought that wasn’t very good to ruin his Christmas while she worked at the canteen. The canteen was a marvelous thing. As the servicemen came up the stairs from the underground tunnel, there was the canteen right at the top of the stairs, just before you went into the door at the main station right out on the platform. It was just part of our lives for a number of years and Mother worked there and that’s what she enjoyed. She started her work in the First World War at the Red Cross and wore a Red Cross uniform. At that time, they made bandages and she was in with a bunch of girls that liked to entertain the servicemen. Of course, my father was one of them. My mother was very patriotic. I had three older brothers in the service and what gets to me is that the spirit that was in the community at that time was something we don’t see today. Our whole lives were affected by the war effort every day. It wasn’t just one or two neighbors being in the service, it was whole families. The Holt Brothers were three brothers in the service and in my family there were three brothers in the service. Every family in Ogden that had sons, those sons and some fathers were in the service. So most every family had someone in the military service, the 3 canteen was like a little touch of home for all the service men traveling through Ogden on the trains because they had good things to eat and good coffee to drink. LR: You mentioned that the canteen was located at the top of the stairs, was it in the station? FL: No. It was just outside the southwest doors of the main station lobby on the covered platform at the top of the stairs. LR: Did you ever get to watch you’re your mom working in the canteen? FL: Occasionally, I’m sure. I was her buddy and I was around most likely. I don’t really have anything to tell, but I could make myself visible. LR: You’re mother also worked at the USO. Do you remember some of that work that she did there? FL: Yes, she was a hostess. During this time, she was probably about 50 or maybe a little older. They had some young ladies that were also hostesses. The USO was located in an old church on the north side of 24th Street just below Adams Avenue. It had been renovated for the American Legion. They moved to another church on the south east corner of the 24th and Adams making their old building available for the USO. It was just an open place that had programs, entertainment, dancing and they had places where you could just sit. There was no television. They had to do their own entertainment. They could probably read and there was a little refreshment area. The thing that made it special for us is that we had a large 30-foot long living room and my mother would bring home a half a dozen or more servicemen plus some waitresses and they would roll up 4 our carpet and dance on our hardwood floor to our 78 RPM records. Every so often that was something that happened in our house. These servicemen would come into our home and just have a place to relax. LR: Did you enjoy those moments? FL: Oh yes. I’ve always been the type to talk to everybody. LR: So you interacted with some of the soldiers she brought home? Do you have any stories about some of those? FL: No, not that I know of, I just was part of it and probably helped roll the carpet up and what have you. LR: Your mother was a busy woman. She also worked in the bond house. Can you describe what that was? FL: You talk about her being a busy woman; she was also the bookkeeper for our family business. The bond house was a cinder block building they built right on the sidewalk on the west side of Washington Boulevard just south of 25th Street. It faced east and it took up the whole sidewalk. It was a colonial motif building, with a wood front porch built out over the gutter and into the street. Those needing to use the sidewalk had to use the front porch to get past the Bond House. The government had quite an active program to finance the war by selling bonds. The smallest denomination of bond was $25.00 which cost $18.75. This bond house was the center of the thing and I’m not sure just who was fully in charge of it. My mother worked there one day a week and I was there quite a few times and I became very proficient in rolling coins into the tubes. I spent many 5 hours doing that. In fact, I built a little tray to put the coins in so I could roll them easy and faster. In addition to that, my mother was a coordinator for the schools where the government wanted every penny you had to spare, so the kids at school wouldn’t have enough money to buy bonds, so they sold stamps and I don’t remember what the denomination of the stamps were, but you pasted them in a book and when it was filled it could be converted into a regular war bond. They had a day at school where they collected money and gave you the stamps for your stamp book. One other thing I remember taking all our mashed soup and vegetable cans to school to be recycled for the war effort. Something of interesting note, all of the soda pop was in glass bottles, so there was no aluminum cans. Another thing about this bond business is they did everything they could to promote bonds. I’m sure every family had a few bonds, because the first day of a new show the price to get in the show was buying a bond. People would line up on the sidewalk in summer or winter to get into these shows. I believe there are pictures that show the people lined up at the movie house to get into the movies. LR: What are some of your memories of 25th Street? FL: Well, 25th Street, that’s very interesting. My memories of 25th Street, when I was 16-years-old and just got my driver’s license, the activity of the day was to go down on 25th Street and people watch because every other place on 25th Street was a bar and of course, the most famous place on 25th Street, the porters and waiters club is one of outstanding places. It was really a professional place and it served its purpose because all of the trains that came through had the porters 6 and waiters and this was their place. There was also the notorious red light district. When it came time to restore 25 Street, the question in my mind was, “What are they going to restore it to?” They did a good job I think. It’s too bad that they ripped out the Broom Hotel and the other hotel on the other end by the railroad station that had several different names like the Earl Hotel and the Heely Hotel. They tore down those buildings and then decided to restore 25th Street. I could give you a quick rundown of what was on 25th Street in that block from Washington to Grant. There was the Broom Hotel and in it was a barber shop and out in front was this wooden Indian thing that was quite famous around that period of time. Just west of the hotel was a very famous restaurant called Ross and Jacks and that had something very interesting happen. They evidently had a falling out, so they came in and just cut the restaurant in half and it was no longer Ross and Jacks. Ross had his café and Jack had his café. In Ogden, I only remember two types of restaurants—American and Chinese. The Chinese restaurant that was there was very popular. There were also two clothing stores and I don’t know how to describe them because they were different than the clothing stores along Washington. They had a different type of clothes and served a different type of person. Those were some of the things that filled up that space where they now have a bank and the federal building. LR: Are there any other memories you have of your mother during that time period that you’d like to share? 7 FL: One of my brothers was six years older than I am and another was eight years older and the other was nine years older, so I was mother’s baby even until I was over 16-years-old. We did a lot of things together. She and I went on a trip to Yellowstone and at that time you could stop and a bear would come up to your car and knock on the window hoping to get a handout. You wouldn’t dare leave your car open, especially if there was any food in it because the bear would just climb right in and that happened fairly often. In 1939, my mother, her younger sister, my 15 year old brother and myself went to California to see the San Francisco World’s Far. For a nine-year-old, this was one real exciting time. We were traveling in a 1934 Chevrolet. There was no trunk, so my father built a rack that he bolted to the rear bumper. We covered the suitcases with a canvas and tied it all down with a rope. My mother and brother did all the work. I got the impression from the service station attendants that two women with two kids driving across desolate Nevada was something you seldom saw and quite risky. My mother was not afraid and would drive most anywhere. She was quite a competent traveler. For me, the fair was the most awesome experience of my young life. LR: Well, Mr. Lucas, I am so grateful that you have taken a few moments to share with us your memories of your mom, World War II and the canteen. Thank you very much. SL: You mentioned your mom made a lot of coffee, did she make anything else that you remember? Did she make it at home? FL: Oh no, it was all done there. We’re not really coffee drinkers. 8 LR: That is quite interesting that she was so proud of her coffee. FL: The soldiers loved it. LR: Do you remember the coffee pots? Were they just the old percolators? FL: No, the coffee urns were of about three to five gallon stainless steel pots. They had a spigot (faucet) at the bottom to fill the coffee cups. There was a glass tube running up the front above the spigot which showed the level of coffee inside. Just how the water was heated and circulated to drip through the coffee grounds at the top, I do not know. I do believe it was a chore to clean out at the end of the day. LR: Did she use some of her rationings like sugar or flour or anything for the canteen? FL: No, not any of our private rations. They had means of getting whatever they needed. This was not a hide in the midst thing, it was a big operation. You could tell by the fact that they served 1,644,798 servicemen. If you lined that number of people up two or three at the window at a time, you can figure how long it would take to get that many people through there. It was a massive undertaking. It was something else that was really enjoyed. You would enjoy it too if you could get off the train and have a nice snack. It would be nice, especially if you were bored and didn’t know what was going to happen to you. LR: How many hours did your mom work? FL: That’s very interesting because on the records they have all of that documented and while my mother didn’t work the most hours, she worked 777 hours. Mrs. Lowenstein worked 1600 hours. That’s a lot of time. With 200 hundred ladies 9 making up the three shifts seven days a week, they worked mostly five hours a day, but I know my mother also worked seven or nine hours sometimes. It was supported by the community. I don’t think they had trouble finding ladies to do it. They didn’t have to go out and beg people to do it. People wanted to do it. LR: Did she work a specific day at the canteen or did it rotate? FL: I noticed that she worked on Thursdays and Garth Blanche said his mother worked on Monday mornings. It could have been other days, but I don’t know. I was just amazed at the records that they kept. On last thought. All the auto manufacturers stopped making new cars and retooled to make tanks, etc. for the war. We went four or five years without any new cars. 10