Oral History Program Andres Ramos Interviewed by Ruby Licona 5 August 2002 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Andres Ramos Interviewed by Ruby Licona 5 August 2002 Copyright © 2024 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Community Oral History Collection includes interviews conducted by Weber State University faculty, staff and students, and other members of the community. The interviews cover various topics including city government, diversity, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management Special Collections All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Andres Ramos, an oral history by Ruby Licona, 5 August 2002, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Andres (Andy) Ramos conducted on August 5, 2002 by Ruby Licona. Mr. Ramos, a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, speaks about his recollections of the Hispanic community in Utah and the United States and his experiences with the FBI. RL: Today is August 5, 2002. I’m meeting today with Andres Ramos, who is a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Andy—and I will refer to you as Andy because when I call your office that’s what they call you, and maybe you can explain a little bit later about how you came to be Andy instead of Andres. Could you tell me a little bit please about your place of birth, maybe your parents, their names and their place of birth, and a little bit about your family background, where you grew up? AR: Okay. I was born on January 1 of 1959 in a little place called Ameca, Jalisco, Mexico. It’s a little town that’s northeast of Guadalajara in Mexico. When I was about four years of age, my parents began to trek to the north. We stopped in Tijuana, Mexico for about a year, and then relocated to Logandale, Nevada. My father’s name is Ramon Ramos, and my mother’s name is Aurora Ramos. They also were born in the Ameca, Jalisco area. My father was a farmworker; his parents before him worked on the farm in Mexico. Education-wise, my dad did not go through too many years of formal education there in Mexico. My mother was educated a little bit; her father was a schoolteacher in the area where she lived, so she had some education in Mexico. Not much, but some. RL: What about the rest of your family? Do you have siblings? 1 AR: Yes. I am the second of my parents’ children. I have an older sister, Griselda, who is a year older than me, and another sister who is three years younger than I am. In total I have four brothers and four sisters. When I mentioned the name of the first two, that’s only the first two that I mentioned. There were three of us that were born in Mexico, and the rest were born in the United States. RL: You said you moved to Logandale, Nevada. Did you grow up there, then? AR: Yes. I consider Logandale, Nevada, the place where I had my early childhood. I did kindergarten through the first part of seventh grade in the school system there in Moapa Valley, Nevada. RL: After Logandale, where did you end up? AR: After Logandale, my parents moved to California for maybe two years, and then they stopped in various places. We ended up in Southern Utah in a farming community around Enterprise, Utah. RL: So when you were in California, were you following the crops? AR: Yes. We worked in the migrant stream, picking broccoli, cauliflower, lettuce; worked in the grape vineyards. A lot of migrant-type work there. RL: So you made it all the way up to like the Napa Valley, or vineyards in Southern California? AR: Basically, vineyards in the Southern California area. We stayed around the Santa Maria area of California; did grape vineyards there and all the agriculture work there. My parents were not some to be following the migrant stream completely. They worked in the migrant type of labor, but they were geographically centered in one area. We stayed in Santa Maria. 2 RL: So you got to go to school, then? AR: Yes, we got to go to school. RL: Did you also get to work in the fields? AR: Yes, starting in California I worked in the fields quite a bit. Back in Logandale, Nevada, when my parents got there, there were onion plantations, tomato fields, and things like that. I started around eight years of age, going out with my parents to work in the fields. In fact, even earlier than that; I remember we had just arrived in the Logandale area—I was five, six years old at the most—and I remember going with my parents to pick cotton. They had cotton fields there in the Logandale area. The thing that drew my family to the Logandale area was the fact that my father had other relatives that had made it to the Logandale area to work in the agricultural community there. However, my father loved horses, and worked with horses in Mexico. Soon after we got into Logandale, a person who owned the Tropicana hotel out of Las Vegas, a guy by the name of J.K. Howsell, had a thoroughbred horse farm in Logandale, and my father ended up working for him—training, running horses, working with horses. In fact, that ranch later on was bought by Wayne Newton, who converted it to an Arabian horse farm. But before, it was a thoroughbred farm, and my dad loved horses. He worked with horses there. RL: So did your dad work for Wayne Newton too? AR: No. When the farm got converted from a racing horse farm to an Arabian horse farm, Wayne invited his own people that knew that type of horse better than the thoroughbred racing horse. My father was out of a job. 3 RL: And that’s when you went to California? AR: That’s when we went to California. RL: Getting back to working in the migrant fields, when the children work with the parents like that, do you get the feeling that it helps to build more sense of family with everyone working towards the same goal? I mean, obviously they’re working towards survival, but does it help the children understand a little better what’s going on? AR: I think it adds unity because you’re all united in working towards a common goal, as you mentioned. I think the other thing that it adds is mutual respect. You get out in the farm fields and the goal is to clean, to weed a row—you’ve got yourself, your father, your mother, and your brothers and sisters doing the same type of work, and when you see that you can do as good of a job as your father or your mother—and sometimes even better and quicker and faster because you’re younger and stronger—you’re maybe more motivated or not smart enough to slow down. Then it adds to the feeling of equality, maybe? RL: And accomplishment. AR: Yes, and accomplishment. You’re all pulling your weight the same way. At the end of the day, depending on how much you’ve worked, your labor is worth as much as those adults around you, and that adds a sense of accomplishment to you in a way. RL: Makes you feel like you’re contributing. Following the migrant road and so forth, even when you were settled, you went to school during the school year. Did you work in the fields during the summer? 4 AR: Yes, it was mostly during the summer. Weekends during the school year, weekends during those times of the year that you could work out in the fields, and California was most of the year round. If Dad had a job, there were things that we could do on the weekends, or sometimes late in the evenings we’d go out and help, but most of the farm labor that I did was around the vacation times of the year. RL: What were the schools like? AR: I enjoyed the schools. I enjoyed the schools in Southern Nevada. I have very fond memories of my experiences with school in Moapa Valley. The school district in Moapa Valley was located in a town called Overton, which is neighboring Logandale. I remember a lot of beautiful things about that school. I think the teachers at that time had a hard time trying to deal with Spanishspeaking students. However, when I was in fourth grade, a teacher that took extra attention noticed that I was lagging a little behind the other regular Anglo students. He took a little bit of time with me, and I remember that attention he gave me because I think it helped me break out of a shell: out of a world where I thought that I couldn’t do as well as others. RL: Now, did you know any English when you started kindergarten? AR: When I started kindergarten, I didn’t know any English. In fact, I didn’t even know how to ask for the bathroom. There were some experiences and memories related to that particular situation. But yes, I could not speak English at all, nor could my sisters around me. We did have some distant cousins that were 5 attending that school, but they were all older than I was. They helped kind of ease us into the school and the Moapa Valley area. RL: You’ve obviously got a mastery of the English language. Was that just through the years, or did someone take an effort with that? Were there any programs at that time to teach students English? AR: There were some programs—I remember in Moapa Valley, Southern Nevada, there were. I had troubles in school. I remember in the fourth grade, a teacher by the name of George Turner developed interest in me and started actively, in the classroom, asking me opinions and involving me in some of the student work and even took some interest in the after-school hours. I think there was something that was created inside of me: a desire to be as good as the other students around me in some of the things that I was doing. I think by the end of the sixth grade, I remember bringing home to my parents some reports from the teachers in which I had excelled in some of the areas in comparison to the Anglo and more native students of the area. RL: So once you got the mastery of English, then your natural intelligence started to show itself, and people started to recognize it. You weren’t a dummy just because you spoke Spanish. AR: That’s right. I remember even when we moved into Southern California—the school that we attended there was Dana Junior High in Nipomo, California. I remember receiving some awards from the mathematics department, where through testing and other ways I was recognized as a gifted student. I remember they were handing out uncirculated silver dollars to the student that 6 accomplished the best in certain exams or in mathematics, and I remember getting that award. It enhanced my confidence in myself and my abilities to compete. RL: Did you save that uncirculated coin? AR: I still have it. The plastic kind of broke on me at one time, but it’s still not circulated. RL: You need to put it on velvet and frame it. AR: That’s right. I do have that. RL: You went to Enterprise, Utah at what age? AR: I was in the latter part of the eighth grade when I made it to Enterprise, Utah. RL: So you did all of your high school years there? AR: All of my high school years were in Enterprise. RL: I’m not familiar with Enterprise. It’s in the Cedar City area? AR: Enterprise is north of St. George and west of Cedar City in Southern Utah. It’s located in the northern boundaries of Washington County. My family lived in Iron County, but the school district permitted students from Iron County to attend Washington County schools. RL: Otherwise, you would have had to go 50 miles the other way. AR: Otherwise, I would have belonged to the high school in Cedar City. RL: What can you tell me about school in Enterprise, Utah? AR: Again, when we got into Enterprise, Utah, as far as non-Anglo-American students went, we were the only non-Anglo students in that school. RL: So you were a minority-minority. 7 AR: We were an extreme minority. There were a few Native American students that had been placed with some of the local Anglo families in the area through whatever system was being used at that time to bring students out of the reservation. Those students would come in and sometimes they’d be there a month, two months, three months—maybe the school year, but then they’d be gone, whereas our family moved permanently into the area. We were the only non-Anglo family. RL: The token minority. How were you treated? AR: We were accepted, actually, fairly well. My older sister had troubles in school. She wasn’t as motivated, because I think mentally, she was equal to me, but the motivation to do well in school was different for her than for me. She dropped out after the 11th grade year of school. Myself, I was as motivated in Enterprise as I was in California, so I was performing well academically, and that led to me being treated well by the teachers. I had no disciplinary type of problems with the teachers. I was always motivated to try to do as well as I could academically, and that leads to a very pleasant relationship with the teachers. I don’t think I went out of my way to become a teacher's pet or anything else like that, but just the fact that I was motivated about school and I was concerned about grades. I was concerned about doing the best that I could inside myself. I had no problems in Enterprise. I remember good things. I was active in sports; I played basketball with the school teams. Couldn’t play baseball or other sports that involved early spring or later fall type of activities because during my years in the Enterprise area, my father, who was working on a farm in that 8 Enterprise area, also used me. I was one of the farmworkers there, so when the irrigation season came around in April or May, depending on the year, I was one of the principal irrigators. I had a 12-hour shift that I had to cover one way or the other, and so I couldn’t play baseball or track or things like that because they involved after-school hours, and those hours were hours that I was supposed to spend on the farm. So I worked all summer. During the summers, I carried a 12hour shift watering for that farm. RL: If your water turn comes at three in the morning, you’d go at three in the morning. AR: When your water shift comes at three o’clock—it was one of those situations where we irrigated with pumps, so the water supply was constant. As long as the electricity was working, the pumps were running 24 hours a day. My dad was managing the farm basically, but the owners of the farm would always hire some irrigators, and principally there were two irrigators. My dad ran the machinery and the equipment and cut the hay and did a lot of those types of things, and kind of coordinated the watering cycles and whatnot, but usually during the summer there were two primary irrigators. They usually hired a person, and those people that were working on the irrigation shifts with me during those years that I was in school were primarily persons out of Mexico. They’d come in during the year, they’d work for the season, and they’d go back. Sometimes we did see those same men come back to work in the summers. I wasn’t constant, but I got to know those fields really well. RL: Now, did your parents become citizens? 9 AR: My parents to this day are not citizens of the United States. They are legal residents. Again, it was while Dad was working on that horse ranch in Moapa Valley that he did all the paperwork and all the certifications to become a legal resident of the United States. RL: You and your two sisters that were born in Mexico, did you ever become citizens? AR: We all became citizens. My older sister married a local boy from Enterprise and stayed there. The sister that follows me married also, and she lives in the area, but they all married into the Anglo community. RL: When you got out of high school, were you in the military, or did you go straight to college? What happened after you left Enterprise? AR: After I left Enterprise, being of the LDS faith, I did a two-year mission for the LDS Church in Wisconsin and Illinois. RL: Spanish-speaking mission? AR: No. Surprising, I was called to an English-speaking mission, and I got to know Wisconsin. RL: Were you in Milwaukee? AR: I spent at least a year in Milwaukee. I spent the other year divided between northern Chicago, the suburbs, Rockford, Illinois, and northern Wisconsin—the Appleton/Green Bay areas of Wisconsin. RL: So they sent you all over the place up there. AR: Yes. In fact, I spent some time around the University of Wisconsin–Madison, too. I spent about six months there. 10 RL: It’s cold up there. AR: It is cold in Wisconsin, yes. RL: I spent two years there, and about froze my hoo-ha. AR: That’s right, it is cold. RL: Okay, so you did a mission, and then you would have been, what, 21 when you finished that? AR: I went out at the standard 19 years of age, and I came back at 21 years of age. In fact, before the mission, I had been working on the farm to raise some of the money required for the mission. Then my senior year of high school, that ranch changed its watering system. They went to the modern, circular type of system. They took my job away from me, those electric circles. RL: Automation did you in, huh? AR: I went and started working for a gentleman that owned one of the few convenience-types of stores in a little town called Newcastle. I learned how to deal with the public. I changed oil in cars, did basic maintenance on cars; I ran the little gas station that was there, and I ran the cash register at the convenience store. RL: Became a jack-of-all-trades. AR: Yes, a Juan-of-all-trades. It was a lot of fun, especially during the summer, because you have all that tourist industry that goes through that part of the world, the color country and what-not. I spent the summer of my senior year working there. Also, that area has an awful lot of potato farms. In fact, at potato harvest, that time of the year there are an awful lot of jobs. Most of the years that I was 11 there, in the fall of the year I would help with the potato harvest. I’d be running some of the machinery to harvest the crops in my later high school years. My earlier high school years, however, I would work some of those lines where you’re sitting, and the potatoes are harvested and brought to a central pit in the storage, and you’re pulling out clods. I guess the machine picks up certain size objects; some of those are potatoes, some of them are rocks or clods, so you’re trying to pull clods and rocks out of the conveyor belt that’s shipping the potatoes into a big pile. I worked that system just about every fall when I was in that area. You earn money one way or the other. RL: What got you out of the convenience store and into the FBI? I know that’s a big leap, but what happened in between? AR: When I finished the mission, I worked at the Union Pacific Railroad for about two or three months. I came back from my mission; I started in January, so I finished the latter part of January, and I worked for a month and a half at the UnionPacific Railroad. All this time, I’d been gone two years away from the Southern Utah area, and having been in an area where you’re talking to people and whatnot, and having worked in the migrant fields, and knowing how hard it is to be out in the hot sun all day, my mind had been made up that I was going to go to school. I came back from the mission and worked at Union Pacific and found out that I could enroll at Southern Utah State College in March of that year, 1980. RL: For the spring quarter? AR: For the spring quarter, and I made up my mind that I wanted to do it without really much money. I had only enough money to pay for my tuition and get myself 12 enrolled. I moved to Cedar City and went to Southern Utah State College, at that time. It’s now changed to Southern Utah University. But I went there thinking that I was going to be a pre-medicine type of person. Then while I was enrolled at Southern Utah, my folks developed some legal and economic problems that were just harassing the family, so at that time I started getting more involved in law, and I changed my major from pre-med to pre-law. In fact, I decided to get a business degree from Southern Utah, so I spent most of my time in the Business College. I graduated from Southern Utah. I started in March, and I graduated in March of 1983, three years later. I was, again, trying to get out, but still motivated about grades. I graduated with a 3.99-something. Anyway, when I graduated, I was the top of the Business College down there, and that’s a record at Southern Utah. They gave me a lot of different types of awards, and that enhanced my confidence in myself. I had a lot of help and support at Southern Utah; I enjoyed it immensely. With that, towards the end of my college experience at Southern Utah, I took the law school entrance exam, the LSAT, and made applications to different law schools. In fact, I applied to four law schools: the University of Utah, BYU, the University of Arizona, and Arizona State, and was accepted by all four of those. After making decisions and analyzing my life, I decided to attend the University of Utah law school, and I graduated there. Let’s see, I started in the fall of ‘83 and graduated in December of 1985. I took the Utah Bar in February of 1986, and during the course of my last year at law school, the FBI was recruiting. I talked to the FBI recruiter, Lou Bertram at that time, and I was motivated to put 13 in an application to the FBI. My wife, who is also of Hispanic background—I mentioned that before… RL: So you didn’t go into the Anglo community for your mate? AR: I didn’t, no. My wife, her family is from Chihuahua, the central Chihuahua area of Mexico. Her family had come to the United States much like my family, but had settled. Instead of settling in a rural area, they settled in the Salt Lake City area, and her life story then became much different. I’m more the rural type of Hispanic, whereas her family’s more urban. RL: More cosmopolitan and urban. AR: Urban, but also demonstrates some of the weaknesses, whereas being rural and in a small town, there are some things that keep you away from some of the ills that have befallen some of our Hispanic-urban type of people. It’s an interesting story in itself, but anyway, my wife is also of LDS faith and had served a mission in Monterrey, Mexico, northern Mexico, and one of the persons leading the mission that she served in was a person who was an FBI agent. One of those FBI agents abroad, having the office of the Legal Attaché in the US Consulate in Monterrey Mexico… My wife got to know him and his family and what he did. When I told her the FBI was recruiting at the law school… Again, I forgot to mention: after I got into law school at the University of Utah—I got there in August—in December I met my wife at a Christmas party. We got married at the end of my first year of law school. So during that time, I was thinking about career choices for the future. When the FBI came recruiting to the law school, I mentioned to her that they were there. Then she started talking to me about 14 some of the things that she had seen and known from this friend of hers that she had met in the Mormon mission. She thought it was exciting, too; she thought it was interesting. I guess she was impressed by the fact that this guy could cross the border between the United States and Mexico with immunity and not have paperwork. RL: He didn’t have to swim across the river. AR: He didn’t have to swim across; the Mexicans didn’t inspect his vehicle nor did the Americans, and she thought that was pretty cool. This gentleman’s name was John Waltzer, who talked to her about the FBI and let her see the first peek. So anyway, I went through the process of application with the FBI and was hired on with the FBI in 1986. I started on June 16 of 1986. I went to the Academy, which is a four-month process you go through to learn a bunch of different things. By that time, I had my bar membership in the State of Utah and I had finished law school, so I felt fairly comfortable with the FBI. Went through, and the Academy was a breeze. From there I was assigned to the Dallas division of the FBI, assigned to work cases, reactive-type of cases: violent crimes, bank robberies, kidnappings, extortions, fugitives; a squad that was dedicated to that type of stuff. I worked on that squad for about a year; thereafter the FBI recruited me to work in one of the drug squads, investigating predominantly Hispanic-type of drug organizations in the Texas area, and I did that for a number of years. Then in 1992, the FBI transferred me to San Angelo, Texas, which is in west Texas, just northwest of San Antonio. There they asked me to work everything. In fact, they asked me to open up the office there in San Angelo. 15 There had not been an FBI office in San Angelo at least for 10 or 15 years, the office had been closed. I was asked to re-open the office there with another agent, an older white agent who had been transferred into the Dallas division from Los Angeles. So it was he and I who were asked to work in that area. Again, it was a very successful type of experience for me, because while there, a lot of cases came together. We were able to prosecute a few different types of cases for the FBI, and it was a very enjoyable experience for me. My partner—and this is just anecdotal—my partner had not a very successful experience. Sometimes working as agents, some places are good for you and some places are not good for you. My partner ended up being transferred back to the Dallas division headquarters and I received another partner. My experience was very positive, very successful. The FBI was pleased with my work, and I was pleased with my experience with the FBI there. RL: That was in the early ‘90s? AR: That was 1992 through 1995. In 1995, the reason I mentioned Mr. Waltzer, who was in Monterrey before, is because in 1995 that position became available. Where you’re the lone FBI agent in northern Mexico, representing the FBI at the U.S. Consulate in northern Mexico… I applied for that position and received it, so I took my wife right back to the area where she had served her mission, but also where she had come across the FBI to the point where we could cross the border with immunity. RL: So you really impressed her. 16 AR: Impressed the heck out of her. It was kind of a circle. I have to also mention the fact that back when I was about 11 or 12 years old, I can’t remember—again, it’s a record—when the family became legal resident aliens of the United States, we had to take a trip down to Guadalajara, where my family was from in Mexico, to go through some of those consular lines to get your resident alien. RL: Get those papers stamped. AR: Papers stamped. So what’s interesting is that back in my younger days, we had to wait in the line at the consular, and then here later on, you don’t. RL: You could walk in and out and go to the head of the line. AR: Later on, I was actually sitting behind the window. On a few occasions, we reflected on the change of status that a few years and a few decisions made in my life. RL: How your life can change, how one little decision can lead you on a totally different road. AR: Yes, how your life can change, that’s right. Because I’d look at the lines of those people at the consular lines in Monterrey, and sometimes I’d reflect and think on the fact that I was waiting in one of those lines many years prior. It was an interesting experience there in Monterrey. We represented the FBI in all types of investigations that the FBI got involved in. In the early part of 1999, we received a transfer from the Monterrey area to Los Angeles, where I was asked by the FBI to supervise a gang squad. So I handled some agents: I had about 10 to 12 agents at different times that were out investigating gangs that I was responsible for in the Los Angeles area. 17 RL: Was it your choice to leave Mexico? AR: It was my choice. In fact, the way the government handles some of those positions abroad, you’re only allowed to be out of the country for a certain number of years. Though I could have done one more year in Mexico, we chose to cut short our stay at four years instead of five years. We started getting some phone calls at our house of a threatening nature, and we, along with the FBI, decided that it was time for us to leave Mexico and to transfer. The Bureau transferred us to Los Angeles; we stayed there for about… I was there 1999. In 2001, I accepted a transfer with the Bureau to Salt Lake City. The Salt Lake City office of the FBI was looking for transfers because of the Olympics and received some. Even though budgets were really tight in the FBI, Salt Lake City merited a few transfers in, and I opted to step out of management with the FBI to be eligible to have a transfer home. We call them ‘office of preference transfers’. I got one of those here to Salt Lake City and was assigned to the Ogden office of the FBI. I worked during the Olympics with the FBI. RL: Now, you were in Los Angeles doing gang work and drug enforcement kind of thing. Were there any incidents that you can tell us about there, any particular memories, or was it pretty non-eventful? AR: There’s an awful lot of things, obviously, that you can’t talk about investigations, but we had a successful experience in Los Angeles. The squad was very active in investigating the Bloods and the Crips in South-Central Los Angeles, which was the primary focus of my squad. We had some interesting experiences 18 wherein we helped supervise some of the investigations that the agents were conducting there with successful completions to those investigations. RL: Then you came to the Ogden area for the Olympics. Was that setting up security for the Olympics? Just doing a little bit of everything? AR: When I came here, I was—like all transfers into a new division—subject to the management initiatives and concerns. So when I came here to the Ogden area, I was involved in all types of Olympic preparations, like all the other agents were. When the Olympics came upon us, I was assigned to become a liaison officer for the FBI at Snowbasin and the Ice Sheet. So I spent a bunch of time here in Northern Utah. They did not suck me into Salt Lake City to work general duties; I was assigned to be the FBI agent liaison at the Ice Sheet here with Weber State Police, and up at Snowbasin. RL: So you got to see the Olympics from behind the scenes? AR: Yes. RL: Anything in particular with that? AR: No, it was an enjoyable experience. It was different than some of the other assignments that I’d received in the Bureau, but it was an enjoyable experience. RL: So you weren’t in on any of this investigation of the people trying to fix the—what was it, the figure skating? AR: The skating? No, I wasn’t. That was not my assignment. RL: Are you now a fan of curling? AR: Yes, I am. It’s one of those few sports in the Olympics, spectator-type sports, that would last a few hours. 19 RL: Several hours, from what I understand. I have friends from Canada who are really into curling. I have to admit, I never understood sweeping the ice in front of that little thing and making it move and stuff. AR: It was fun. Once you got the dynamics down on that sport, I became more interested. In fact, I became more interested in learning exactly what the rules and goals are in the sport. I enjoyed it. RL: Were you able to involve your family in any of the Olympic events? AR: No, my kids got involved in the Olympic events mainly through the trips at the schools and whatnot. On a couple of occasions where I did want to take some of my kids, their preference was to stay away from some of the big crowds. Other times when they were more amenable to going up to some of the events, I was having to work, not able to accompany them. The way my family works, we’re pretty tight-knit. If Dad can go, we go; if Dad can’t go, we’ll opt not to. RL: How many children do you have? AR: I have five children. RL: What are their ages? AR: The oldest, Alicia, is 17 years already; my next one is Jessica, who is 15, in the process of trying to get ready to learn how to drive; my next one is 14. Then my next one is 12 years old, and the youngest, who would be—let’s see, I’ve got Alicia, Jessica, Adina is in the middle. Cassandra, my youngest daughter, is 12 years old, and my son will be 11 in August of this year. In fact, in a couple of weeks he’ll be 11 years old, and he’s the youngest. They’re spaced about a year and a half or so apart from each other, a little ladder. That little ladder has been 20 with me since San Angelo. My oldest daughter was born in Utah, while I was going through law school. Then the other kids, the four, were born in the Dallas, Texas area. Two of them in Irvine, Texas, the city of the cowboys; one of them in Fort Worth, and the other in Dallas. Four of my kids are from Texas. RL: From your perspective, Andy, why don’t you tell me a little bit of your observations coming to Ogden and to Weber County. Imagine you have some interaction with the Latino community. What is your observation of the acceptance, or the way that the Latino community interacts with the Anglo community in Ogden? AR: I think when you look at the Hispanic community, and again, I’m speaking from my limited point of view… RL: But you have a very special point of view, so. AR: It’s a law enforcement type of view. We’ve been in the community now for just about two years here in this area. We have points of reference; we have lived in areas where there’s been an awful lot of Hispanic, in Texas. Texas, Southern California, Los Angeles—and we lived in the limits of Los Angeles, California while we lived there. We saw some of the similar types of problems. The Hispanics, especially the youth, are still trying to figure out how to fit in. Sometimes we notice that especially the Hispanic male youth have even a tougher time than Hispanic female youth, and I can say that because I’m watching my daughters and some of the stuff that’s going on in their lives, and I see that some of the decisions in school and things like that are different for them 21 than the decisions and problems facing the young Hispanic men. Seems like there’s more pressure to fit in… RL: To live down a stereotype. AR: Yes, to live down a stereotype by the young men. My daughters are at the stage where they have a lot of friends of the female variety, but they’re beginning to attract some of the attention of some of the young men. RL: And if your hair was not already gray, it would go gray? AR: It would go gray. But it’s interesting to see some of the challenges facing them. I see also that in the Hispanic community, there are some that have obviously excelled in the community that we live in, but those points of example for young people are not that awfully great. So I think as a Hispanic community, we’re still trying to reach a point where we can be more well-accepted. RL: You mentioned earlier, when you first talked about your wife, the difference between the urban Hispanic experience and the rural experience. Then you also mentioned working with the Bloods and the Crips in LA. Is there some of that same gang activity going on in Utah? AR: I think there’s an awful lot of feeling here in the Ogden area amongst the youth. There’s an awful lot of looking towards some of those gang type of activities in the Los Angeles area, and I think there’s some of the youth that are trying to follow that type of lifestyle, whether it’s an expression against the local community here or whatnot, but there’s a lot of leaning towards those gang type of things. RL: Or maybe just trying to find someplace where they feel they belong? 22 AR: That’s right, I think you’re right. RL: Where they’re accepted. Well, you’ve got the urban perspective that your wife had, and your rural perspective. Can you tell me a little bit about how you see the difference between when you were growing up and what the kids now are facing? AR: I think that my wife and I, because of my profession, have had to be more in the urban type of setting. Never had my kids in a rural area. Even San Angelo was a city of 95,000 people. Still, for me it’s still a big city compared to Enterprise with maybe 1,000 inhabitants now. But I see that there’s some changes in my kids, as opposed to how I was raised in a rural environment. There’s many more pressures for them to conform. My wife grew up in the city; she was an urban Hispanic. She came here and her family lived in the Salt Lake area. RL: West Valley? AR: No, she grew up in the Salt Lake area, the downtown area. In fact, she graduated from South High School in Salt Lake. The pressures for her: she came across different Hispanic urban-type of movements, like the Chicano movement and things like that, much earlier than I did. When I was in Enterprise, things like that just didn’t hit us at all. We were the only ones there. Whatever Hispanic movement was there was right in our own home. We didn’t have gang types of affiliation problems, nor did we have to deal with other Hispanics for the most part when I was growing up, except for the migrant stream that had come to the Southern Utah area also. So I was focused on one thing and one thing only: 23 education and trying to get out, whereas my wife’s family were bombarded by some of the movements that were out there. RL: Some of the political issues. AR: Also, being in the urban area, as Hispanics, the line between white and Hispanic was very bright. RL: Very distinct. AR: It was brighter than it was in Southern Utah, where I grew up. We were the only Hispanics, and when people looked at me, they didn’t look at me as a Hispanic group, it was just another person. Yes, of different skin color and things like that, but by the same token, I don’t think I came across that extreme prejudice that could be existent where there’s more numbers involved. Then you have group dynamics going on. I wasn’t faced with that, whereas my wife’s family were, and consequently, the family didn’t have too much success trying to break out of that system and go to school. My wife, with her brothers and sisters, was the only one that went to university. I met her while she was attending the University of Utah. RL: Did she get to graduate? AR: She didn’t, and the reason she didn’t was because my oldest daughter came around, Alicia, and then the Bureau transferred us before she could finish. Having a child during college years, and then me getting a job and us leaving the area made it difficult for her to finish her degree. Otherwise she would have finished. RL: In her growing up in Salt Lake, you say there was a line of distinction between Anglos and the Hispanics. I think in Salt Lake there’s also a distinction between 24 the different flavors of Hispanic. You get Mexicans and Chicanos, but then you also get your South Americans and Central Americans—everybody’s their own little distinct group. I wonder if the kids now are running into the same type of things. With the Bureau, you are not too much involved with any kinds of political issues in the city. You have to kind of keep yourself apart from that. But as far as the community, church activities, that kind of thing—well, you said you’re LDS, so you’re probably involved. But are you in just a regular ward, or do you go to a Spanish ward? AR: Me and my family—speaking about religious experiences, when I was in Dallas, San Angelo, and in Monterrey, Mexico, the LDS Church asked me to preside over some of their congregations. So I’ve been congregation head, a bishop or a branch president, three different times for the Church. In Southern California, I was also asked to be a member of the Bishopric, so I was one of three that presided over one of the wards in Southern California, mostly dealing with Hispanic or mixed-cultural types of situations. When we came here to Ogden, we attended a regular geographic ward, which includes whichever type of race is there, but mostly here in this area, predominantly Anglo. Ninety-nine point nine percent Anglo. We, after getting to Ogden, decided to attend a Spanish-speaking ward that meets on 27th and Jefferson, and again, it brings in people from all Hispanic communities, all Spanish-speaking communities. We’ve seen, through that experience, another aspect of how Hispanics are mixing. RL: I would think that would bring some unity. AR: Yes. 25 RL: Now just two things, Andy. Talk to me a little bit about what you feel that newly arrived Latinos can contribute to the community, and those of you who are already here, what you can do to help make that transition a little bit easier? AR: I think as people come into the community, the first thing is to figure out how to obey the laws and rules in the community as a really good way to fit in. From my perspective, there are a lot of times when you see people that come in, and they come in without respect for rules. No matter if you’re white or Hispanic, you’re always affected negatively by those who cannot live by the community rules and norms. The other thing is, as individuals, to act the best as possible. I mean, we move into a home, we keep it clean, we keep up with some of the basic types of things; we just kind of improve as people, as normal citizens. You look at the norms of the community and try to fit in with those norms. I think most of us that have been here a while, it depends, I guess, what we want for our kids. Me, I want to raise kids who are able to fit in with any type of community. I want them, however, to still love themselves from the inside out. I want them to be able to look at the Mexican Indian—I am a Mestizo by background, which means I have Mexican Indian blood in me as well as Spanish blood— I want them to be able to look at what they are in their bloodlines and be proud of what they are. However, I also want them to be able to look at the American community they live in and be able to be successful American citizens, but I also want them to have that love that comes not of country, but of the racial stock that we are. RL: The roots. 26 AR: While we lived in Mexico, we respected the Mexican flag. However, the day that we came to the United States and became U.S. Citizens, in my heart, I waved the American flag. I want my kids to be able to be successful in that American situation and add to and improve the opinion that others might have of us as Hispanics. When I look at my kids and the contributions I want them to make in the future, I want them to make it so that the American mainstream is just a little more Hispanic too, that we are there also. RL: Have more of a voice and a face. AR: Have more of a voice and a face without rejecting the different roots. I don’t think that they need to abandon or denigrate their Mexican Indian background in order to fit into the American mainstream. RL: Be true to yourself. AR: That’s it, be true to yourself. RL: Now, what about from your perspective, what can the city and other agencies do to help people fit in a little better? AR: I think just to continue some of the community awareness types of programs that have been and are ongoing. I’ve seen some very positive things in the city of Ogden. I mean, you have people in development leadership that are aware of some of these cultural differences, and I feel comfortable. I love being here. I live in the Riverdale area; however, Ogden still flavors everything around it and I like what I see. We walked the city fair here a few weeks ago in the downtown Ogden area, and I liked to see that some of the music playing at the little amphitheater 27 has a different variety. That’s always nice. We feel really comfortable here in this area. As far as we Hispanics, if we individually all decide just to be better people—whatever we do, just to do it a little better, then we’ll begin to change some of the stereotypes that are out there. As we become better people, I’ve always found even in my professional job that if I’m good at what I do, then it really doesn’t matter the skin color that I have. Some people will look at the outside, and will stop at the outside and not try to see the substance that is within me. Then all of a sudden there’s a little bit of respect that goes both ways. I’m patient. Race issues have been around for many, many years, and I’m a patient man. I just want to help educate my kids to the point where they can be part of that melting process. I’m the type of person that feels that we can be mainstream, but still be, like you say, true to yourself. You can still be mainstream, but we don’t all have to look the same. We can all be good shining examples of whatever it is that we need to do. RL: Do you have any last observations or thoughts that you want to share with us, or anything special to wrap this up? AR: No; basically, I haven’t finished my career yet. I’m still an FBI agent. I’m here in the place that I want to be, and I just hope that I can continue to enjoy each aspect of my life as I have in the past. They’ve all been successful experiences. None of us are perfect; we all make mistakes here, there, and the other. However, I’ve enjoyed my travels in Texas, I’ve enjoyed my travels in Mexico; I’ve learned a lot. That comment that Edward James almost makes in Selena 28 where he says, “As Mexican Americans, you’ve got to be more American than the Anglos, and…” RL: “...and in Mexico, you have to be more Mexican than the Mexicans.” Yeah. AR: He finishes off saying, “Man, it’s tough being a Mexican-American.” RL: I loved that comment in that movie, because you can really relate to it right now. AR: You do, you’re stuck, and we saw that going to Mexico for a week as MexicanAmericans. I was in that Monterrey community, and there’s differences. We don’t fit in Mexico, and we don’t completely fit in the United States. We've got to do something, and that something is to take more charge of our future. That’s what I’m trying to talk to my children about. Whatever you do, do the best. RL: Don’t let someone else set your direction. AR: Yes. Set your direction. However, accept the best of the American mainstream values, and get to the point where you can succeed in that American mainstream however, bringing whatever it is you are, your ethnicity, with you, so that enhances what you are and never turning your face against what it is that you are. RL: Don’t hate any part of yourself. AR: Yes. I know there’s movements out there in the Hispanic community that are progoing back to the Mexican Indian or the Mexican-American community and whatnot. Well, I think there’s some value in some of those things because they help us love ourselves. I don’t push for any of the activism or things like that, but there’s ways where we can all love ourselves more integrally and still become a 29 very successful, competitive, productive part of the mainstream American society that we live in. RL: Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us today. I really appreciate your taking the time to come talk to us. AR: Well, thank you, Ruby, and I wish you the best in your next venture. RL: Thank you. 30