Oral History Program Brother Boniface Interviewed by Randee Minoch 07 May 1972 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Brother Boniface Interviewed by Randee Minoch 07 May 1972 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Boniface, Brother, an oral history by Randee Minnoch, 07 May 1972, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Brother Boniface. The interview was conducted on May 7, 1972, by Randee Minnoch, in the Abbey of the Holy Trinity, Huntsville, Utah. Brother Boniface talks about his background and involvement in the monastery. RM: Brother Boniface, would you tell me where you were born and where you were raised; some of your background and environment. BB: I was born in New York City, in the Bronx, under the shadow of Yankee Stadium. This was in 1918; so it puts us back about 53 years. I was surprised to find myself out here in these canyons of the Rocky Mountains when I lived in the canyons of New York City with tall buildings. It is quite a contrast when I consider the inner city and the isolation of the Rocky Mountains. RM: Why did you decide to join the Monastery? BB: After I graduated from college in 1941, it was the time of the Second World War. Spending four years in the Army, there was plenty of opportunity for travel and seeing life in all of its aspects. I always had an inclination for work and prayer; and then, being thrown into the Army and going over-seas--France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg and Germany itself. So, when the time for discharge came, it was very easy to make your choice. Of course, you had to leave the service. There was civilian life; there was marriage; there was further schooling; there was commerce; there was industry or this deep call in my heart of work and prayer. So, I looked the field over; and I says, "God, it seems that I follow this inclination of work and prayer." To fulfill this 1 desire, monasticism had the answer because it is geared and set up of work and prayer. The Benedictine Rule helps in areas very well. With this, I entered the Monastery exactly 27 years ago. RM: Was it this Monastery that you entered? BB: No. We had our large Monastery in Kentucky. Immediately after the Second World War, so many servicemen came into the Monastery we were bulging; and we had to expand. So, we looked around the United States to find a suitable spot to come to. We wanted solitude as one of the pre-requisites for monastic life. So, that's the nucleus-- that's the beginning of our Monastery here in Utah. RM: And they just simply selected it because they wanted seclusion? BB: Yes. All monasteries are out of cities and towns; and there must be a degree of separation from the world--where you can have seclusion and a good degree of silence. Mountain districts are very conducive for this. The valleys are very good, too, and remote country areas. The Rocky Mountains are ideal for the situation. And, again, we followed the lead which God was giving us; and we came to Huntsville. RM: Are you aware, at this time today, how much acreage was purchased or even… BB: I think when we first came here, we had 1,840 acres--1,820 acres. Since then, we have purchased probably about another 150 acres. We have a little under 2,000 acres at the moment. I always tell people one acre is approximately a football field--a little less than a football field. So, figure 2,000 football fields. That's a lot of playground we have here. And then, I tell the kids we can take a walk on our property--around the perimeter, the 2 outskirts (it was about a 16 to 18 mile walk) -- and we are still on the Monastery grounds. So, you could see it is a vast area--almost 2,000 acres. RM: Can I question you on your selection, as far as here in Huntsville and the valley, when there was already a similar—well, we can't really say similar--but a religious community already in existence. Has that ever posed any problems? BB: No. On the contrary. Coming here, we knew we would own a large farm; and our neighbors would be farmers, too. And, we were well aware that they were not of the Catholic faith as such. But, we said that God is of the truth; and as long as we live in our own truth and as long as our neighbors live the truth also, there will be a compatibility. There will be a relationship. There will be a kinship where you can work and you can produce, where you can be sincere and pray and be open, not hidden, not esoteric-being childlike and being simple. So, the people will see that there is a reality there and we know we won't have to teach or preach or lecture to the people--just be ourselves, be genuine. So, it took a few years before we could show our true face, show ourselves as we are—simple kids from different parts of the states and many environing experiences. We welcomed everyone with this attitude; and it was easy to form friendships, and some very close friendships, with our neighbors. RM: Can you look back and see any problems from the two different. BB: Yes. Normally there always would be. In fact, it is said where two people are together any place on earth, there will be differences; because no two people are the same approach, no two people have the same background and no two people have the same education. Even in the family where there are twins, you could see already the differences as they blossom into life. There would be differences; but you have to be 3 mature and prudent and to know that these differences will be there these tensions will be there. It is a normal part of growth. When you plant the seed in the ground, you don't expect a three hour rain immediately after that, and three beautiful days of sunshine and another two hours of rain. There won't be any wind or anything like that. You are realistic. You plant the seed, and you watch. There will be a little draught, but then there'll be rain. There will be winds. There'll be storms. But the plant will hold its own and grow and grow and grow until you have the tree and, then, finally the fruit after years. So, being realistic, we accept the situation as it is. And, with our own shortcomings, with our own hang-ups, with our own deficiencies; but with our good points, with our openness to life. Being realistic, you meet the situation existentially, realistically--not with any Utopian ideals. You fit right into the situation; and there is peace enjoyed by being a realist. RM: If we go back when you first settled here in Huntsville, what were your goals and objectives at that time? BB: One of the first things, there should be a degree of autonomy in a monastery. We should be self-sufficient, self-supporting and make things productive and have the farm productive enough so we can earn our daily bread. Water was the very first problem here in Utah. We had to get to work in building irrigation ditches and building pipelines to supply more water into the house. The very first challenge was from the agricultural angle--to eradicate much of the weeds in the fields and the sagebrush. Much of the soil was virginal; so, we had to baptize it with a horse and plow. And, at that time, we did have a horse and a plow, you know. Twenty-five years ago, that was still the fashion; but eventually, we did become very modernized. You could see it was a slow go, a slow 4 movement; but the goal was there to support yourself as any family, any married couple meeting life. There'll be children. There'll be the necessity to have your daily bread and butter and to live a degree of social life, to have a degree of leisure, to have a degree of constant growth—spiritually and materially. So, with that, we opened up to the situation. RM: Let's be quite specific. What year did you come to the Monastery? BB: In 1947, we came here on July 10. This July 10th is going to be our 25th Anniversary. RM: Who does “we” include? BB: Pioneers. There was a little over 30 of us who came here. So, when I say we, it’s our present monastic family of about 35 members. That is the family group here at the moment. RM: You have your present members here right now? BB: No. I’d say 15 of the original have left to different occupations. Several have died. As you know, in our cemetery we have six crosses. The rest of us are here. As pioneers, after 25 years, you can expect casualties and deaths and comings and goings—as is normal. RM: In the 25 years that you have been here, would you like to try and evaluate some of what you would consider your successes, as well as some of the failures? BB: Yes. Coming here at the beginning, financially we had to be helped. Our mother House in Kentucky, they did help us quite a bit financially. RM: Let me interrupt there and ask who else would help you? Are there others? 5 BB: Yes. Very many friends. We have our families; and we have friends who have been coming here for many years. Especially people from California who have good jobs and do command good positions in the world. They have been visiting us and seeing that we have something here. We did live poorly and very simply. We did work hard; and we had many hours of prayers in church. We didn’t go into town. We lived our vows here. They saw that there was a degree of sincerity and truth. They began giving us financial help—in the thousands—and many a time, too. When our present Reverend Father came here—Father Emanuel Skelaine—he was a Parish Priest in California; and he had very many friends. When they saw him coming here, they helped him, too. That was natural. And then again, people leave us legacies when they die. They give us their stocks and bonds, a little inheritance. With that, we were not pressed financially. We were blessed. And then slowly, we did begin earning our own bread and butter. At the moment, I understand that our farm is averaging over $100,000.00 a year on different industries. The bees—we have a large industry in the bees. There are the milk cows. We milk about 80 a day. We have 10,000 chickens; and we run a couple hundred head of beef. Then, we have a large farm, probably 600 acres under cultivation and pasture, plus 1,200 acres of range land. It is a good source of income. The past few years, we have been self-supporting, self-sustaining. And, besides that, we have been giving charitable donations around the world, as people have been asking us. In India, Africa, Europe and other parts, even here in America. RM: In other words, if the family itself, here at the Monastery—if they were to have any financial or monetary gain, you would give it to charitable organizations? 6 BB: We have been giving to charitable organizations; and, occasionally, we would have a dialogue to see where and how much we shall give to these different countries, different institutes, different societies. RM: Did you have a desire within yourself (like the concept on the outside) to be monetary? To strive for material things? BB: Yes. Definitely to support yourself. I mean, Saint Paul said specifically that he labored by the work of his own hands; and he didn’t want to be a burden to the community where he was. He was a tent maker. Wherever Saint Paul went on his missions, he always worked. He earned his bread and butter. And, yet, he says, “An apostle and a man of prayer, I could ask you for support because I am giving you of the spiritual substance; and in return, you can give me something of material substance; and this is a fair exchange.” But, even he went beyond this. He says, “I’ll labor by the work of my own hands—so, not to be a burden upon you.” You have your own outlets to charity, your own difficulties to earn your bread and butter. With this attitude, we do work and we do try to put an honest day’s labor each day. And, if a man does take the Vow of Poverty, he should try to imitate the poor who are in the neighborhood, who are in the country. The average farmer must work for his living. He doesn’t say to the government, “You give it to me.” The city, “I need this sup-port.” Or my relatives and friends, “Support me and I’ll be a gentleman of leisure.” No. It is work; and, with that work, is our recreation. We have no recreational things, as such. No sports, no going out. Then, when you come to church to pray, you know you didn’t come to anything but a prayer hour for spiritual growth. Seven times a day we are in church. This, too, is a big part of 7 our life. It is probably the bigger part of our lives, the accent on prayer. This work area, this development area, that’s secondary—that’s a by-product. RM: If you are evaluating—saying that your self-sufficiency is a success—do you have anything that you would call a failure since you have been here? BB: I’d say just the normal failures. In the sense of undertaking things and then dropping them. We were in the bread industry; but we did drop that. We had cheese; and we did drop that. There were a few other incidental things we did try and fell away from them. For one, a labor problem—the more irons you have in the fire, the more hands you need to handle them. In a modern economy, you can’t be too diversified. Like we used to be in gardening and had an extensive garden. But, for gardening you need special tractors, special equipment that goes with it—seeders, planters and different cultivators. It takes a special personnel. It’s a special type of a work. It is easier to be concentrated in a few areas than being diversified. Therefore, with what we get from the milk cows, it is just as easy to buy your food products, instead of having them all—instead of having this Utopian set-up where you have your own vegetables in your back yard. You have good cattle, good pasture; and you’ll make enough money to buy your vegetables cheaper than to… RM: How long did it take you to realize that you couldn’t have this exact Utopian society that you hoped in the beginning? BB: Any farmer can tell within a few years—any farmer. A man buys a farm, he’s been reading farm journals. And, usually they the journals publish all the success stories. Success after success in different parts of the country. Then, he gets the high ideal to 8 go out and get this farm and things will ride smoothly. But, then, when he comes into it, he finds out that the very first thing he has to contend with is the weather—early springs, late springs, frosts, draughts and heavy rains. Sometimes fires are normal, too. With all these blows, he begins realizing that there are other things to contend with, let alone the unstable market. How things fluctuate—the price rises. All that does make the man stop and see that there is a reality of life which he must face. With success, there will be failures. But, not to fear, to try. It’s only he who tries who’ll succeed. And as one Priest beautifully put it, he says, “He never makes a mistake who never tries anything.” I don’t think I would like to be in that category. I’d be immaculate, no mistakes; but at the same time, I’d just be sitting doing nothing. RM: Do you think you have faced the reality of life? That those who join a monastic organization are facing the realities of living? BB: Probably more so than you would in the world. I could be very frank with you, very open, as I have been with many—speaking with many college groups, high school groups, with many church groups. I came into the Monastery, I was 27, after the Second World War; and I told you my ambition was to work and to pray. I thought I was a good boy— giving something to God. I am a man. I am mature; and I know what I am doing. So naturally, I came into the Monastery. There was a two or three year training period which we call a novitiate. You have plenty of time for silence, and solitude, and prayer, and reading, and meditation. In this, you begin seeing yourself as you are—very normal. You have normal inclinations. You have normal desires. You have left the world; but you bring much of the world with you. Your whole life background is part of you. Anything you did is there in you. Slowly I began to see I had some hang-ups and deficiencies and 9 weaknesses. It wasn’t a pleasant revelation. We like to see our good points; but not the weak points. But, to be realistic again, you face these things; and you have many to whom you can talk in dialogue about all you have experienced. And, you open yourself up to them; and you tell them about yourself. And, they advise you, they guide you— sort of a psychological counseling and encouragement. One of my hang-ups was—I wasn’t aware of it; and yet, it was there all my life. When I was a kid (probably I was in the 6th Grade), it was my turn to read. I was reading; and I came across the word “comfortable”. And I read it, and I read it “com-for-table”. The kids in the class laughed; and the teacher said, “Son, you read that again.” So, I said, “Com-for-table.” The teacher took me by the ear; and she says, “Come. I’ll take you to your sister’s class;” and that was the 8th Grade. I got up there as a cocky kid; and I said, “Com-for-table.” The class laughed and roared. That punch hit me—that humiliation of being ostracized publicly and taken by the ear. I didn’t know what happened; but I just buried that shame, that humiliation. All during my life, I kept it buried. I didn’t know what was in me; but I was sort of retiring and afraid that if I come on the scene, I’d be ostracized. In fact, when I graduated from college, I had a commission in the Army; but I didn’t take it. Again subconsciously, that as an officer, I would have to meet my squadron, my platoon. I’d have to command. That frightened me. So, I went into the Army as an enlisted man. And, I wasn’t too aware specifically where the trouble was as yet. But, you could see, underlying, how that hang-up was there. I could live a normal, steady life and do everything else; yet that hang-up was there. But, on a monastic set-up, it would open up. And in silence, I can’t run away. I can’t hide it any more. Now I began facing it; and I says, “Let’s look at it yourself, Brother. You thought that you were coming to give God 10 glory, and here you find yourself—you’re just a stinker.” With this, I faced the tension that I am weak. I have this hang-up; and I admitted it and I faced the pulpit. My former first speeches I had to give in Gethsemane, at the Monastery, was at an anniversary. The Master asked two or three men before me, “Would you give this speech?” The first one said no. The second was an Army officer; and he said no, too. He didn’t want to. And, he came to me, I said, “Here’s your chance, kid.” So, I said, “Master, you know I won’t refuse you anything. I’ll give that speech.” A trepidation; and I’ll have to meet myself in public. But, when I went out, the very first thing I said, “I come to you in a degree of fear and trembling; but as I am, I’ll present what I have to say.” I spoke about ten minutes. With that, I took the initial step. I was baptized now. I opened up this area. So, from now on, I could—it’s there, but it’s open. Now I could meet everyone face-toface. As I meet people, we all have this deep area of shame and of hiding something. Sometimes it is the drug situation. Sometimes it is the sex situation. Sometimes it is an alcoholic problem. Sometimes it is a family problem. Sometimes it is a youth growing-up problem. We all have them. It is a normal thing. I met quite a few psychiatrists and psychologists here from the University. I spoke to them with this freeness and openness. And, they marveled at the peace and joy that there is. I simply tell them it’s this openness to life—openness to people. I tell them it’s a great benefit to have faced this; because, now anyone you meet you can have compassion. You can understand them. You can give him a kind word; and he could see how human and loving you are. You can relate to them very easily. Especially, working here at the bookstore, I meet very many; and this openness, it’s a great help. 11 RM: Didn’t you ever want to express this peace and joy to the entire outside world? If it was possible? BB: Yes. And, that is probably one of my great pains in my heart. We express it in prayer; and we ask Christ—we ask God to, to do what we cannot do. As you meet people, you die a lot. You find how poor words can be. As good as they are, as good as the consolation, as good as the help you can give them, it takes a little more than that. Ultimately, it does take the grace of God to give sanity, to give peace, to give joy. That’s where prayer comes in. That’s what we do seven times a day, I ask God to do what my weak words cannot do. As I tell people, it’s now 13 years, I have almost non-interrupted peace and joy—almost non-interrupted peace and joy. Yet, each day, I give God a tear, of the eye or of the heart, to be true in what I was telling you. To face myself as I am, to see how human, how loving I am. Yet, remembering I have the Vow of Poverty, of Chastity, of Obedience, of Stability which I made to God. So, now, being human and having the Vow of Chastity. You must grow, you must mature, even in this angle. Yet, there isn’t a woman in our life. Modern psychiatry is saying there should be a relationship, how normal marriage is, and how maturity goes with this. But, now we take these very desires, these very inclinations, and even these very temptations. We open ourselves up to God; and if you have the faith, He will give you the peace. He will give you the fulfillment, if I may use the word, far surpassing what the world can give you. “My peace I give to you; My peace I leave to you. Not as the world do I give unto you.” With this openness to God, there is this constant peace. It is not so much answering the problems of life; but rather living life—living the reality. Living a very normal life. Accepting tensions, accepting one’s weaknesses, accepting one’s humanity, accepting 12 the joys of life, accepting the challenges of life. So, in all this acceptance, we know that God is at work. He is not with us; and, yet, He is loving us. It is a spiritual love. It is an understanding. It is a compassion. It is a mercy. It is—it is all in the value system that’s not seen; and, yet, how real they are—how real. And, as I tell people: peace and joy is the answer. God gives it to you when He gives you this touch of Himself. You know, that there is a God. You know you don’t believe so much in God because you see Him. The peace is this touch. The joy is His constant touch with you—that He is with you. So, therefore, having this peace, having this fulfillment, and you could say, maturity, you won’t have to seek these other values which are good in themselves, which are normal, which are maturing. But, you will possess it on a different plane. That is our Vow of Chastity, as I am explaining. You know, many are leaving religious life, the Priesthood and things like that. Many couples are being divorced because they haven’t come into this reality of God’s presence. That’s precisely what monasticism is. Our founder, Saint Benedict, in the 6th Century, he was already telling that you come to the Monastery to listen. There will be silence and solitude. There will be work and prayer. “You listen, my child; and you will obey because you know that obedience is a normal part of living.” And, as you obey, in this faith, you will see yourself and you will need help in many areas. So, what you can’t do by nature; you ask God. He will give you the grace, the help. As you persevere in God’s grace and help, one day He will come to you and tell you that He is present. “Behold, I am present,” quoting Isaiah. After this, whatever was difficult, now becomes easy. Whatever was hard, now you do with grace, with ease, with joy, with peace because you know God is with you. So, you see this value system—I see not, but I believe. The Vow of Obedience I make to the Abbott—to obey 13 him as my lawful superior, as my father. And, what he tells me, I take it as Christ says, “As they tell you, you do. He who hears you, hears Me.” So, now I approach Him in faith that it’s the obedience of the Father’s will. The prayer being, “Our Father, Father thy will be done,” So, each day, you and I would have a will to fulfill. In direct proportion, as we fulfilled that will, we would have this peace, this peace which is Christ, this peace which is God. That’s the flower of monasticism—to come into the presence of God and to live with this presence. It’s an experience. The world is seeking, many are looking. I encourage people to continue—as long as you truly are seeking that touch will come. I do meet people whom have come face-to-face with God. Pope Paul VI put it, “A Monk is looking at God alone, desires God alone, is devoted to God alone.” The presence of God again. He calls this—he says it’s a mystical illumination of contemplation. You see how God is at work in today’s world; and you share this experience with the world in prayer. Now, you ask, “Father, give us this day our daily bread.” The material bread and the spiritual bread, too. We have wheat out in the field. We have alfalfa, and we have water. God, we’ll plant and we’ll water; but you give the growth. We have many prayers to answer. Many people send us letters, telephone calls, visits—asking for prayers. So, in this mystical illumination, we see how God is working. Now we ask for our daily bread, peace, joy, compassion, love, understanding. To feed the hungry, to console the weak, to strengthen those in temptation. Now you see how this flowering of silence and solitude comes into the presence of God; then, from the presence of God into the world. So, now, I can consider myself universal. Yet, I have nothing directly to do with the world. Yet, my influence is universal. You notice Christ never left His little area, His Jerusalem, His Galilee. Yet, universal repercussions of His life and His teachings and 14 His Gospel. Two thousand years later, this influence is with us. As we become united to Him, His spirit lives on today. That’s monasticism—to carry on the spirit of Christ. RM: I have one final question. Do you have any regrets? BB: No. To answer that, just a few weeks ago, I was speaking with Brother Edward; and I said, “So many have been leaving and the worlds in such turmoil, how do you feel about our vocation, Brother?” And, Brother Edward said, “Each day there is a growth. It’s like a magnet. You’re getting closer to it. It’s drawing you closer and closer and stronger and stronger. The pull is becoming irresistible. And, when it’s going and how, I know not; but I leave myself free to the magnetism of God’s love.” 15