Oral History Program Sara Meess Interviewed by HallieKate Briggs 21 & 28 January 2022 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Sara Meess Interviewed by HallieKate Briggs 21 & 28 January 2022 Copyright © 2025 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Meess, Sara, an oral history by HallieKate Briggs, 21 & 28 January 2022, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Sara Meess conducted over Zoom by HallieKate Briggs on January 21 and 28, 2022. Sarah discusses the development of Ogden’s Nine Rails Creative District and related projects, as well as her part in them through her work in Ogden City’s business development department. Note: Active listening, transitions in dialogue (such as “um,” “so,” “you know,” etc.), and false starts in conversations are not included in transcription for ease of reading. All additions to transcript noted with brackets. HKB: All right. Can I ask what title I should use for you? SM: I'm the business development manager for Ogden City. The business development division is one part of the community and economic development department. The broader department is over, you know, planning, community development, arts and events. It's a pretty broad scope, but then we have our smaller divisions within the department. I'm in the business development division, so we do a lot of work as far as recruiting businesses to Ogden. We work with our existing businesses that are already here to try and make sure they can stay and grow in Ogden. Then we have some programs that are more geared towards entrepreneurs and small businesses, trying to make sure they're connected with the resources they need to launch and grow a business here. We also work on some of the redevelopment and revitalization projects around Ogden. Some cities, like Salt Lake City, bigger cities like that, they typically have a whole staff for their redevelopment agency, but we are not that big. Our team and 1 community development as well get to work on a number of the redevelopment projects that are happening here. HKB: Okay, thank you. I'm going to make the little intro for my thing I've got to do. It is 11:40 a.m. on Friday, January 21, 2022. This digital interview is being conducted over Zoom. My name is HallieKate Briggs, and I will be conducting this interview on the history and impact of contemporary art in Ogden as part of my Bachelor's of Integrated Studies capstone project. This project will be housed in the Stewart Library Special Collections at Weber State University. My interviewee is Sara Meess, business development manager here in Ogden. Thank you again so much for your time and your willingness to participate in this project. Let's jump right in, start from the beginning. Would you mind sharing with me when and where you were born? SM: Sure. I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in 1984. HKB: What was it like going up there? SM: Well, we lived in Pittsburgh until I was about in fourth grade and then we moved to New Hampshire, so I don't have as many memories of Pittsburgh, but I remember just enjoying living in the neighborhood. There are great parks there, lots of good restaurants. There were places we could walk to easily from where we lived. I really enjoyed that, what I remember of it. Then New Hampshire was quite a bit more rural. Where I grew up is a pretty small town, so very different, but pros and cons to both. New Hampshire is also great access to the outdoors and lots of woods to play in, lots of great ponds and lakes to swim in. 2 HKB: Did that love of the outdoors affect your relationship with Ogden and our heavy focus on outdoor recreation? SM: Yeah, definitely. Ogden is just amazing access to the outdoors here. Even when you're not like recreating, even when you're just walking around the neighborhood or visiting downtown, the mountains just feel like they're so close to our city here. It's something I love about Ogden for sure. HKB: Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? SM: Yeah, sure thing. I got a bachelor's in anthropology with a focus on archeology. I worked in archeology for, I guess, five or six years after I graduated from college. There is actually a surprising number of jobs in archeology. Whenever a project is on federal lands or involves federal dollars, a lot of times they'll do an assessment of what cultural resources are there before they start the project. That was a really fun job that took me to all kinds of places within the state that I might not have ever gotten to visit otherwise. Also as part of that work we were documenting historic buildings and putting together national register nominations for historic neighborhoods in Salt Lake City, and I loved that. I loved learning about architectural history of different neighborhoods and seeing what could be done to help preserve those neighborhoods. That kind of led me into a broader interest in historic preservation and urban planning. I wound up going back to school at the U, and I got a master's in city and metropolitan planning. In the meantime, I'd moved from Salt Lake up to Ogden. I was looking for opportunities to work in urban planning or related fields, and I reached out to the 3 city to see if they had any internship opportunities. I started at the city as an intern in the business development division while I was back in school, I think in 2012, 2013. Then when I graduated, I was fortunate because there was a fulltime position that had opened up in the division, and I have been here ever since. HKB: Where did you earn this bachelor's in anthropology? SM: I did my undergrad at UC Berkeley, and then my master's degree is from the University of Utah. HKB: What brought you out to Utah? SM: I came here for a summer job with the forest service doing archeology. I was just looking for ways to start working in archeology and thought I'd come to Utah for a summer and check it out. Then I just--it's an amazing place. I wound up looking for a full-time job here and staying afterwards. HKB: Wonderful. How did this concept of the Nine Rails Creative District first begin? Where did you get involved? How did this get started? SM: So, actually, I was working in the business development division, and because one of the things we do is help businesses that are looking to open here in Ogden, I was first contacted by Jake McIntire when he was looking to start a makerspace facility here in Ogden. He'd reached out to the city to see if our division had any resources that could help support that business venture. We were really excited by the concept of a makerspace and what that could do to contribute to a creative environment here in Ogden, what it could do to support people that are creative professionals that need access to that type of space and facility. 4 So, we looked at a couple of different grant opportunities that might help launch that type facility. We got plugged in with Sara Toliver from Visit Ogden and Diane Stern, who was with the Weber Arts Council at the time, and they were also looking at grant opportunities that would support developing this kind of creative environment here in Ogden. We wound up collaborating and putting in a grant application to develop what had kind of evolved from the makerspace concepts to this idea of a creative campus that would have the makerspace, but also other live-work space for creatives. That concept just kind of grew more from there. I think, if I remember right, we went from looking at a creative campus to looking at a creative corridor kind of connecting downtown and Historic 25th Street up into the East Central neighborhood, and how we could use creative and arts-driven facilities, public art, and other things like that to make a more vibrant corridor. That's what wound up turning into the creative district. We were lucky; early on we had an Our Town grant from the NEA. That grant was intended to help us do some visioning and planning for the creative quarter, which then became the creative district. We used that grant to put together a master plan for the Nine Rails Creative District that outlined, you know, what are we trying to accomplish in this area? What are our goals and objectives? What are some of the key projects that we think will help advance our goals? HKB: What does this master plan look like? What is a master plan, for those who aren't aware? 5 SM: So, it's a little bit different. The city has all different types of plans. The city's general plan is for the whole community, and it sets up generally how we want our community to function, how we want it to look, how we want it to serve the needs of the community. Within that general plan, there are community-specific plans. For example, we have a community plan for our central business district, we have a community plan for East Central, and those are more specific to the community that they address. The Nine Rails master plan I would say is kind of similar to a community plan, but a little bit different at the same time. Like I said, we worked with the steering committee to really set out our goals and objectives for the Nine Rails Creative District. We wanted to make sure that we were using art basically to activate the public realm and create a stronger and more vibrant connection between downtown and the East Central neighborhood. We also wanted to see what we could do to support an environment where creative professionals could live, work, flourish, share their work with the community. We wound up looking at a range of things that we thought would help achieve those goals, and they kind of range from physical improvements or investments, like what can we do to create a physical environment that really supports the arts and uses the arts to activate our spaces. It ranged from that all the way over to programming. So, what types of events and activities and programs do we think would help us achieve that creative environment? HKB: Feel free to stop me as soon as you need to go. 6 SM: Yeah, I probably should. I'm so sorry to do that, but my meeting is in a different building, so I need a little time to get over there. Day Two: 28 January 2022 HKB: All right, it is 1:01 p.m. on Friday, January 28, 2022, and we are with Sarah Meess for the second section of her interview. Thank you so much again for meeting with me a second time. I'm sorry we got cut short. We were last discussing the master plan, I believe. How do you see this creative district impacting other areas of the economy and development in Ogden? SM: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I've thought about this a fair bit, because a lot of times I'll get asked, you know, why is economic development working on a planning process and projects for a creative district? Like, where did we kind of jump in on arts-based projects like that? I think a lot about how Ogden's early revitalization was really driven by a focus on our access to the outdoors and how many amazing opportunities there are here for outdoor recreation, and working to develop those outdoor assets and communicating with people in the community and outside the community about why those make Ogden such a great place to live and work. I think that really did a lot to kind of drive some of the revitalization of downtown Ogden, and I think that arts and culture can do the same thing, because not everybody cares about outdoor recreation. Some people are more interested in, you know, a great food scene, or a fun art scene, other things that maybe aren't as tied to outdoor recreation. 7 So, I think it's important as we continue to try to develop our community to make sure we're focusing on all the aspects that make a community a good place to live and work, and I think having an exciting arts scene can certainly do that. I think it can help us to retain some of the talent that's already here in Ogden, and then also help us attract talent from outside of Ogden that see what's going on here with our arts and culture scene and wanna come be part of that, or just decide that that's an important part of what makes Ogden an attractive place to start a business or to move to for a job. That's kind of how I think about the economic impact of arts and the creative industries in our community. HKB: That was something that I noticed was mentioned by Jake in his own interview about retaining some of the talent that's already here in Ogden. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? What talent are you specifically looking at, and what do you think that Ogden has that you're trying to retain even as we move forward in development? SM: Yeah. I think about like a student at Weber State or the tech college that is pursuing an interest in the arts or other forms of creative expression, and when they graduate, we don't want them to feel like they have to move to Salt Lake or another city outside of Utah to be able to really make their interests part of their livelihood or what they do for their job. We would hope that a student in that situation would have just as great an opportunity to stay here in Ogden and either find a job that builds on their creative talents or maybe launch their own creative enterprise or their own business venture that allows them to put their creative talents to work here in the community. 8 It's kind of about trying to build an environment and opportunities for people in the creative fields to be able to stay here in Ogden and pursue those creative fields, whether it be for their profession or just something that they're interested in as like a hobby or an individual pursuit. We definitely want to make sure we're developing that type of environment here, and that people with interest in those fields don't feel like, "Oh, I have to move to Salt Lake or a bigger city in order to be able to really do that and be successful at it." HKB: I really appreciate that. Especially as an artist. SM: Yeah. So, how have you found that? In terms of being able to pursue your art here in the community? HKB: Already, there's been such a change. I came to Weber State for college back in 2018 and just in--well, COVID impacted everything. Just in those--we're going on four years now--the amount of development and opportunity that I've had to see how we've grown, the impact of the murals, I got to see Inked Well up at the university. I did a short internship with the gallery space at the university, and I got to connect with a whole bunch of different creatives. I've been taking trips down to The Monarch to see what they've had on display, and already it's gone from something where I never would have heard about any sort of art scene in Ogden previously. In just four years, it's an active thriving community. While it's always been here, it's more publicly accessible than it once was. SM: Yeah. More visible for sure. HKB: Definitely more visible. SM: Well, that's good. I'm so glad to hear that that's been your experience with it. 9 HKB: It's been amazing. It's why I'm doing this project. What about Ogden makes it unique space for creatives, do you think? SM: There seems to be such a tight knit community here. Again, I'm kind of like an outsider looking in some ways, because I'm not an artist myself; I don't necessarily know a lot about art. But just as kind of an observer, it seems like there's such a strong sense of community here in Ogden generally, but then that really carries over to the arts and creative scene as well. It seems like the artists that are working here do a lot to try to support and promote each other. I see a lot of like sharing of resources. "Hey, did you hear about this? Have you looked at that opportunity?" I think, to me, that's something that feels special about Ogden. I've noticed that within the community generally, but it seems like that's probably even stronger within the community of artists and creatives that live and work here. Really trying to have that sense of community and build each other up. HKB: At what point did this project become something that you were passionate about and emotionally invested in? SM: Oh, man. I would say pretty much going back to when we first got some NEA grant funding for the project, because the possibilities were just so open at that point. Like, okay, we have some funding. We can put some resources towards developing a vision and plan for how to bring more art out into the public realm and make it part of the everyday experience, and how we could use public art to like better connect different neighborhoods and enliven different areas of the city. I think, really, right from the get-go, that was just so exciting, and I guess my attachment to that work has continued to grow. 10 You know, I guess it's been seven years now since we first received that NEA grant. I think it came through in 2015. So, just being able to be involved in the project from its inception with that early grant funding through the planning process. Now that we have a plan that's been adopted by city council, to be able to see some of the projects that were identified as goals in the plan actually come to life has been just amazing, to not just have a of plan of "This is where we're trying to go," but to see of those things really start to take shape. I think the other thing too that makes me really invested in the work that we're doing is how much is happening organically from people in the community, from business owners, from property owners. A lot of what's happened in the arts and culture scene here has happened completely independent of any involvement from the city, and I think that's really the way it should be. Like, we wanna invest in kind of get things moving forward, but to see how much the community has just taken this idea and vision and just run with it is super exciting. That, to me, is what makes it feel like this is something that will be sustainable for a long time to come, is the fact that the community is so engaged and that there are so many things happening just from within the community that are building up that art scene here. HKB: That NEA funding, is that the Our Town grant that you're referring to? SM: Yep. HKB: You said that was about seven years ago? Can you give me a rough estimate of that? SM: Yeah, I think we received that grant award in 2015. 11 HKB: Oh my gosh, that feels like just a couple of years ago. SM: Hard to think that that's seven years ago. HKB: Wow. You were talking about how you think that this is going to be a thriving community for a long time to come. I'm sorry to keep bringing Jake into this, but that's something that he mentioned is that he thinks about this not in terms of necessarily seeing it in his own lifetime, but just how much it's going to improve for the generations coming. Do you share that sentiment? Do you think the city shares that sentiment? SM: I think in terms of the longevity, yes. But I also do feel like we're seeing the changes now, kind of like you were saying. I feel like we're seeing this concept kind of come to life already in different ways. I do think it's something that will continue to have impact for years to come. We hope that Nine Rails kind of blossoms even further into a thriving creative district in the coming years, but also more generally that Ogden's arts and culture scene continues to evolve and expand. I think that it will, but I also enjoy the fact that we're seeing some of that already in motion. HKB: I would agree with that. I think there's already been some really groundbreaking changes. How do you decide what business partnerships and collaborations you pursue in order to, as you say, support this endeavor from a city's point? SM: Some of what we do is kind of guided by the policies that we have for contracting and procurement. For example, when we knew we wanted to hire a design firm to help us develop a design for the Dumke Arts Plaza, we needed to go out to do a request for proposals for that, so we knew were gonna be advertising the 12 opportunity and selecting a partner that would help us create a vision and design for the Dumke Arts Plaza. When we were getting ready to do that RFP, we had some really great feedback at a Nine Rails district association meeting. The feedback that we got was like, "Hey, this is great, but what can we do to make sure that design firms and artists that are based here in Ogden have an opportunity to be involved with the project?" Because a lot of times, like if there's newer or smaller businesses here in Ogden, in some ways it might be harder for them to compete on a big RFP for a project of that size. Not because they don't have the capabilities, but just because a lot of times, when you do an RFP, you're looking for experience. "Tell us about three projects your firm has worked on that are comparable in scale," or whatever it might be. So, for some of the newer or smaller firms, it can be a challenge to compete when RFPs are written in a way that is focused on your past experience. That feedback, I think, was really impactful for us, so we wrote the RFP in a way where we were basically awarding some preference points towards firms that were either based here locally or partnering with local firms, and looking at that as a way to kind of like build capacity within the community. If one of our Ogden-based firms hasn't been able to compete on this type of project because they don't have the experience, how can we use this as a way to help them gain that experience and then build their business moving forward into the future beyond that project? I'm incredibly grateful that we got that feedback before we 13 did the RFP process, because it allowed us to include that consideration as something to award preference points for in the RFP. [We] wound up with a really amazing project team that includes Sasaki Associates, which is a global architecture firm, but they partnered with Union Creative Agency and Io Landscape Architecture, which are both fantastic design firms based here in Ogden. Io Landscape Architecture had done the master plan for us, so it was really great to have their continued involvement to kind of bring that continuity from the master plan into one of the first projects we implemented from the master plan. Then Union Creative Agency, which is Jake McIntire's firm, did just an incredible job with the community engagement process on the project. I think we would have really missed out if we didn't have that local involvement in the project. I would hope that being involved on that project is also a benefit to those two Ogden-based businesses in terms of building capacity, building experience, and being able to demonstrate that on future projects. That was kind of long-winded, but just one example of how we've kind of worked through that process to try to figure out what design partners to work with on a recent project. HKB: Wonderful. Can you, for those who aren't aware, give me a quick breakdown of what an RFP is? SM: Yeah, an RFP is a request for proposals. Now that we're talking about that, I think the version that we did for the Nine Rails design work we did as a request for qualifications. But either of those, RFP or RFQ, it's basically when we know we have a project, we need professional services to complete it, and we ask for 14 either a firm to submit their qualifications--why are they qualified to work on the project and provide the services that the city needs?--or an RFP, sometimes a little bit more specific in terms of asking firms to submit a proposal about, you know, how would you approach the project? How would you provide the services we're looking for? A lot of times an RFP will include a fee proposal, whereas an RFQ, which is what we did for the Arts Plaza, is more based on qualifications, and then you negotiate a contract price once you've selected who you want to work with. HKB: How can artists continue to be involved now that the Dumke Art Plaza is finished and The Monarch is finished and we're moving towards a different scale of projects? SM: You may have talked about this with Lorie Buckley as well, but I think the city does have a pretty fantastic public art program where, working with the Arts Advisory Committee, we look at projects where we think public art would be very impactful. Once those are funded, we go out and we do a call for artists. That's how the Don Rimx murals on Grant Avenue were funded. Those calls for artists I think are a really great way for artists to get involved. That's kind of at the large-scale end of things. The city also has its arts grants programs, which it runs every year, and those can support arts organizations, or they can support specific arts projects or programs. Those are a little bit smaller scale, but they're a great way--like for example, if a theater company or a music group wanted to do a performance at the Dumke Arts Plaza, 15 they could apply for an arts grant to request funding to help them put on that performance. We're really excited about those opportunities. You know, now that the Plaza is open, we really need to make sure that there is a lot of programming, a lot events happening there. In addition to just having the Plaza itself and the large-scale sculpture installations, we wanna make sure that there's community-driven arts programming happening there. Whether that be a film festival that uses the LED screen, whether that be a dance performance that happens kind of in and around the sculptures that are there currently, we really wanna see a lot more of that. Artists or arts organizations are welcome to contact the arts division anytime if they're interested in using the Plaza for that kind of arts-based event, then the arts grants are a good way to request some funding to help support that type of activity. HKB: Can you tell me a little bit more about the Dumke Arts Plaza? Let me know if I'm correct: I believe that it used to be a motel that was torn down and the property was bought by the city. SM: Yep. HKB: Did you all have a vision in mind when that property was purchased? SM: The city's redevelopment agency purchased that motel, and the primary purpose at that time was kind of like a health and safety concern. The motel was in pretty bad shape, there were lots of police calls coming from that property. The negative activity that was happening at and around the motel seemed like it would be an impediment to the development that was happening in that area, or 16 that had the potential to happen in that area, so the RDA purchased the property and demolished the motel. I think I'm remembering the timing correctly. I think that happened around the same time that we were developing the Nine Rails Creative District master plan. We'd kind of talked about that site as, "Wouldn't that be an amazing opportunity to take something that had been such a problem spot and turn it into a very welcoming public space?" When we were working on the master plan, even early on, kind of had that idea of like, "Oh, that property may be acquired, and if it is, what could we turn it in to? How could we help transform it with the arts?" Through that process, we did develop this idea of having a public plaza that incorporated a lot of arts elements there at that site. Having identified that as a project and having developed a few concept ideas for what that plaza could look like, we were really fortunate to just have an amazing set of partners step forward and say they wanted to get involved with that. Ogden Contemporary Arts, they actually applied for a ramp grant from the county to help develop that site as a plaza. They also got engaged with a private foundation, the Dr. Ezekiel R. and Edna Wattis Dumke Foundation. Between OCA and Thaine Fischer, they introduced the Dr. Dumke foundation to this idea of having an arts-based plaza at that site, and the foundation's been very generous and came forward with a major financial gift to help make that a reality. So, we had the foundation funding, we had the ramp grant funding that Ogden Contemporary Arts had received. Weber State University got connected with the project as well, 'cause we wanted there to be really innovative, 17 contemporary art as part of the plaza and just felt like Weber State would be the best partner to be able to be a long-term partner on the space and to curate art that our particular community can get engaged with, so Weber State joined us as a partner as well. Between the city, Weber State, the Dr. Dumke Foundation, and OCA, we set out to take this idea and go through the design process and construction process. HKB: Now that we've seen some of the progress with Union and the Argo House, The Monarch, the Dumke Arts Plaza, what projects are currently happening or are upcoming? SM: From the city's side, we are planning on building some improvements to Ogden Avenue where it runs between the Dumke Arts Plaza and The Monarch. We had kind of envisioned that as some additional event space that is needed in the Nine Rails Creative District. Being able to close the north end of Ogden Ave and use that space for events and festivals is something that we've been very interested in doing. We do have funding for that currently. We've got a design, so we will be starting construction on that probably this April. We're super excited to have that as kind of a connective tissue between the Plaza and the Monarch, and as kind an extension of the Plaza space we can use for events and festivals. So, that one is underway. We are also working on a project down at The Corner. At the actual corner of 25th Street and Washington, there's a kiosk called The Corner that provides information about everything that's going on in Ogden. We're gonna be building a small plaza kind of adjacent to that that's gonna feature a new art piece that was 18 funded through the city's public art program. That art piece will be installed this coming year, and the plaza improvements will be built there this coming year. We're really excited about creating all of these different places where art's happening out in the public realm that are kind of like breadcrumbs leading you up 25th Street into the East Central neighborhood. Those are a couple of the big ones that are underway. There's also some private development that's probably gonna be happening in Nine Rails. There's a plan for some new housing to be built at the corner of 25th Street and Adams where there's a vacant lot right now. There've also been a few plans under development for another housing project up at 25th and Porter, so kind of just east of The Argo House, and we're excited about that. We hope that those create more opportunities for creatives to live in the Nine Rails District. The project at 25th and Porter I believe is supposed to have some good workspace, so maybe another opportunity for artists to live in Nine Rails and then either have studio space or have some little retail space if they are producing things for sale. A couple of those things are happening as well that the city's not necessarily involved with but are just happening on the development side of things. HKB: Do you connect with cities other than Ogden, out of curiosity, to get feedback? Like Salt Lake or any of the other nearby cities, are any of them interested in the project as well? SM: Yeah, we've had some conversations with Park City. I think the connection point there has been Jake McIntire, because he's done some consulting for Park City 19 and Summit County, I believe. He's gotten us connected with them, and we've shared ideas about what they're doing and what we've seen here in Ogden. Then I think my colleague, Lorie Buckley, works quite a bit with the arts divisions of other cities, you know, Salt Lake and other cities on the Wasatch Front. I haven't as much on the art side of things, but definitely it's something that we've enjoyed sharing. As I talk with colleagues in planning or economic development, it's been really fun to share the story of what's happened with the Nine Rails District and hear about what they're working on too. South Salt Lake is another city here that's done a ton of work. They have--I think it's called the Creative Industry Zone. It's in South Salt Lake, and they've tried to really support like, craft industry. For example, I think they have a bunch of craft breweries and craft distilleries down there. They've done some really amazing public art projects, like they have their mural fest there. It's always kind of inspiring to look at what's going on in places like South Salt Lake and see how they're approaching it and just kind of share ideas that way. HKB: Wonderful. In your own words, what is the function of the Nine Rails Creative District? SM: I think it's really about building that creative environment. Building an environment where our community can come engage with the art and where creative professionals can live and work. I think those are kind of the two primary prongs in my mind, is having a place that creates new opportunities for the community to engage with art and to do that in different ways. So, not necessarily having to go to a museum or a gallery, but just walking down 25th Street to go 20 see a twilight concert or go to the farmer's market. What are the opportunities for them to experience and engage with art along the way, just as part of the daily experience? Then the second prong is having that environment where creative professionals can live and work, so having a place like Monarch that offers creative studio space, having housing. One of the things that's really great about Nine Rails is there's already quite a bit of affordable housing in the Imagine Jefferson project. We're glad to have that. There's already housing that's attainable for artists available within the Nine Rails District. I think something that we're interested in seeing more of would be what opportunities are there for artists or creatives to have longer-term equity in the Nine Rails District? So, programs that might support home ownership or help people acquire and renovate commercial space for creative pursuits, just to kind of build that equity and long-term stability, making sure that the district stays a place for artists and creatives for a long time to come and that they don't get priced out, as happens sometimes with art districts. I think those are the two main prongs in my mind. HKB: I've heard the Imagine Jefferson project mentioned several times by multiple individuals. Can you explain to me what it is and what its goal is? SM: Yeah. Imagine Jefferson predates the Nine Rails Creative District, but there are a couple of different apartment buildings that are part of the Imagine Jefferson project, and they're basically mixed income housing. The projects were funded in part by what's called the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit, which provides tax 21 credits to development projects that include some significant portion of lowincome housing. The apartments there, some portion of the apartments are restricted to households that are below a certain income threshold, and the rents are priced accordingly. That housing is specifically available to households with certain income levels, and the lease rates kind of reflect those income levels. There's also some apartments there that are what's called market rate, so just what you might expect to pay for any other nice apartment in Ogden, so it's kind of a mix. But there's quite a few housing units there. I can't remember how many total apartments are there as part of the Imagine Jefferson project, but it's quite few, and it's just really great project, really high-quality apartments that are available to families at a whole range of incomes. HKB: Thank you for clarifying that for me. Now that we're several years into the development and realization of this massive project, what areas do you think have been done really well, and what areas would you hope to see improvement? SM: I think where we've done best is at building physical improve--and this is from the city standpoint, not necessarily what's going on outside of our wheelhouse. But for us, I think what's gone best are the actual physical development and public art pieces. For example, the Plaza, that's a project that we designed, that we built, that we're gonna be maintaining. That's something that's very much within our capabilities, is to build and maintain projects like that. Then I also think about the public art pieces, like the Don Rimx murals or the art piece that's coming to the 22 Corner plaza, I think those are just gonna be super impactful. It's something that the city does a good job at. I think where I would like to see more is kind of more on the programming side and the networking side. Like, what could we be doing to develop programs that support artists and creatives in the Nine Rails District? Like I was just mentioning with the ownership opportunities, are there programs that we or one of our partners could develop to help support artists and creatives that wanna buy a home or wanna buy a commercial building in the Nine Rails District? What could we be doing to make sure that artists and creative professionals are connected with the right resources to be successful? You know, is there a need for financing for those that are starting businesses? Is there a need for just business resources, like business counseling, support developing business plans, things like that? Networking, I don't know that there's much the city can do on this front that's not already happening, but just making sure that artists and creatives have the opportunity to connect with each other and learn from each other. I think a lot of that's already happening. I don't know that that's necessarily something the city needs to do more of, but we just wanna make sure that that continues to happen. I think that's something that we'll be looking at now that we're wrapped up with the Plaza project. I'd like to look a little bit more to like the programming and resource side and see what we could do there or work with partners to provide. Some of those things are already available to other businesses in the community. It's just a 23 matter of communicating them and making sure that creative businesses in the Nine Rails know that those resources are there and know how to access them. But then I think other areas may be things where we don't already have programs or resources developed and could use a little bit more work on that front. HKB: Wonderful. All right, I've got one more final question for you. But before that, is there any areas that you think could stand to be talked about a little more or anything you want to turn more attention to that you would like to tell me about or further discuss? SM: [All] I would mention is a big, big part of what is making Nine Rails work right now are, kind of like I mentioned earlier, their businesses, their artists, their organizations that are taking the initiative on their own to get engaged. For example, The Argo House, that building was renovated and turned into creative studio space by two creatives that wanted to invest in the area and had that vision for developing creative workspace. Or like, I think about how Indie Ogden organized the bazaar market that was held at The Monarch for most of 2020 into 2021, and how that type of event really created a community of makers and artists. I think a lot of what's important for Nine Rails is those efforts, not necessarily what the city is doing. I just think that's super important to acknowledge that. That's a lot of what's driving the development of the Nine Rails Creative District, and it's really super fun to see that happen. HKB: That is amazing. Thank you. Finally, if Nine Rails Creative District, this whole collection of artistic revitalization projects, were to be fully realized, what would 24 that look like to you? Whether that be two years down the line or 20 or 200 years down line. SM: I think if I were a visitor to Nine Rails in like 10 years, say, one, I would want to find a lot of great information available about like, what is the Nine Rails? Where do I go to experience that? Who are the artists and creatives that are working there? How do I find out more about their art? I think first off, there would be a lot of really great information available about what the Nine Rails is and why it's worth coming to visit. Then like, if I was staying in a downtown hotel, I think it would be amazing to just kind of wander through the Nine Rails District and experience the different public art that's happening all throughout the district. I could see like, going to see the new public art piece that's coming to The Corner, going to see whatever new installation is at the Dumke Arts Plaza. Hopefully we'll have new murals that are coming throughout the District in 10 years. So, I think just walking through the District, I would hope that a visitor would just be experiencing art everywhere all around them. I would also want them to be able to engage with the artists and creatives that are working in the Nine Rails District in 10 years, whether that be dropping in to The Monarch and visiting the creative studios and seeing the amazing work that's being produced there, or whether that be going into OCA's gallery and seeing a great new show that's on display there. I think that'll be such an important part of the Nine Rails experience, and hopefully we'll just see more and more of that. If some of these live-work projects come to bear, then a visitor 25 would not just be able to go check out The Monarch, but maybe there's another development where there's townhomes that are owned by artists that have studio space on the ground floor that have open studio days that a visitor could come in and talk with the artists and see what they're producing. Hopefully there will be more of that throughout the District. Then I think ideally there would also be some great arts-based events happening while that visitor is there. Maybe there's a dance performance, maybe there's a small, intimate concert somewhere in the district that that visitor would get to enjoy while they're in the Nine Rails Creative District. I think the other thing too is that in 10 years, this future day, the artists and creatives that are working in any of those spaces feel like they have all the tools that they need to be successful, whether that be a community of other artists that supports them, whether that be access to financing that they mean to make their business successful, access to customers. I think that's another big part of what a successful Nine Rails would look like 10 years down the road, is that those who are working or pursuing creative endeavors within Nine Rails have all the tools available that they need to be successful. HKB: Thank you so much. I appreciate that last question was a lot to ask, more bigger picture, but I appreciate you both taking the time to meet with me today and for all of your work and your passion going into this project. As it continues to develop, I'm so excited to see where it goes. SM: Me too. 26 HKB: I continue [to be surprised] all the time by what amazing people we have behind it who are willing to just throw themselves in wholeheartedly. Thank you again. 27