Oral History Program Fred Zampedri Interviewed by David Bingham 14 March 2003 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Fred Zampedri Interviewed by David Bingham 14 March 2003 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed Kelley Evans, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Zampedri, Fred, an oral history by David Bingham, 14 March 2003, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Fred Zampedri. The interview was conducted on March 14, 2003, by David Bingham, in Ogden, Utah. Zampedri talks about 25th Street and the experiences he had while working in different jobs on 25th Street. Also present for this interview are Michael Mitchell and Kathryn Burnside. DB: Mr. Zampedri, thank you for allowing us here to talk about this. We'd like to begin by asking some basic biographical information about you. Can you tell us your full name, when and where you were born, and tell us about your parents and some of your earliest recollections of 25th Street? FZ: I was born in Salt Lake City. I was three years old when I came to Ogden. My mother died when I was three, leaving five of us children. My aunt took us and raised us. Consequently she had a hotel on 25th Street so she took us all in as a group and raised us. My father worked the mines. They both came from the old country, the year I wouldn't know. KB: When you say old country, Italy? FZ: Italy, Northern Italy, so anyway, they came to the mines in Superior, Wyoming and when the mines closed, they were out of work, they had to do what they had to do. So he did have a farm, he had enough money to buy a farm in Sandy, Utah, or somewhere in that area, but that was before me. He got into a little trouble with the law (bootlegging -making moonshine) him and two other guys. The two other guys had to go to priso. But my father, they took the farm away so he left us. He rented a hotel in Salt Lake City and that's when I was born. They had a hotel there to be able to rave, you know, be 1 able to have their name count. So I don't know how they proceeded there, whether they bought the hotel or whether they were just renting. Anyway, after my mother died, I was three years old, I had two brothers and two sisters and we all moved in to the hotel on 25th Street, which was named Montana Hotel at the time. It was 160½ 25th Street - the address. Through the time I recall there, my brothers were somewhat older than I was and were able to work and they were schooling and whatever. My sister, one of my sisters had to go live with one of my cousins because it was a little too much. Anyway, through the time that I recall as growing up there on the street in the early, early years, three years old, maybe six, I won't recall much through that time. KB: May I stop you for a moment? Would you please tell us your birth date, so we know what year you're talking about? FZ: December 15, 1933. KB: So we're talking about 1936. FZ: And so from that time as a child, I don't remember much. Up to six, maybe, or seven, I started school. My aunt put us in a parochial school, St. Joseph's Catholic School, both my sisters and myself. My two older brothers, I couldn't count for them at this time; they were just working and trying to help my aunt with expenses. So as time went by, I was shining shoes on the street with a homemade shoeshine box, up and down the street, and sold papers as I got a little older, that's when you had to fight for a corner to sell papers. There was a lot of competition there. KB: Tell us what your papers cost. 2 FZ: You know that's something I don't recall. I remember going over to the Standard Examiner in an alley way, and we'd buy our papers off a fellow there to go and sell; and all I remember is being on the street, "Get your Ogden Standard Examiner," especially headliners coming out during the war. So during that, I don't have too much for dates, but anyway I worked like I say, shining shoes, selling newspapers. I'd give my aunt what I'd make because you know, things were tough for her. KB: Tell us her name. FZ: Mary B. Zampedri. DB: What are the names of your brothers and sisters? FZ: Mario Zampedri, Joe Zampedri, Ruby Zampedri, and Emma. Two of them are deceased now. Anyway, so I roamed up and the down the street trying to earn a buck here and there and finally I landed a job. Anyway, 160 ½ 25th Street, we lived there for I don't know how long. I'm jumping around now. So anyway, after that, I took a job in a barbershop - Joe Salimeno, he was the barber, I set up the stand - the regular sit down shine. I shined shoes in there. For my keep or my rent for there, I just cleaned up the shop. I swept, mopped, cleaned the sinks and what have you. So I did that and in fact, he was like a father to me. The guy was really, really, really good to me. He took me places that I would never have gone, up skiing, I didn't ski, but he took me up there when he had his kids skiing, took me to wrestling matches, he took me everywhere. I used to get mad at him every now and then I'd quit and I'd move up to Nick, the Greek. Nick, he had a shoe shine parlor, so I'd shine shoes there. He was an ornery bugger so I didn't stay with him too long. He was a bookie, he'd bet on the horses, he took bets for 3 the horses and everything else. I don't really know Nick's last name, as long as I worked shining shoes for him. KB: Was his shop on 25th Street? FZ: Yeah, but it was up a block. So going back to that, I'd go back, work through Joe and shine because I always had that stand set up. During the war, which we had so many troop trains coming in and out, in and out – 25th Street was like a mob, you know. You'd never seen so many people walking up and down 25th Street. I mean, there was a huge amount of people; I don't know where they thought they were going - whether they were going to work, I know they weren't working around there. Course on the other hand, you had hotels there, big hotels; you had little description here taken from Wall Avenue up you had the, I don't recall if it was the Earl Hotel right on the corner of 25th Street and Wall. KB: Was it the Healy Hotel? FZ: Maybe it was the Healy Hotel — nope, the Healy was over on 24th. That's a good point, I remember the Healy. Now, that could have been the Healy on 25th and a Wall. Okay, then coming up you had a, part of that hotel had a nice restaurant on the long side. You'd come up and there was a drug store, then you'd come up and as my memory serves me right, The Club, and The Club took in oh, several different spaces. They had The Club Bar, and then upstairs was a hotel, and then along there was all different spaces that they'd rent out for different things. I think there was a barbershop down in there too. And then you went up a little farther and then you had probably another bar and another bar, and then you had a big vacant spot there. Then from that vacant spot you had another hotel. That hotel was straight up though and you had all the rooms 4 going up, kind of square off up and then you had all these places. Then came the Montana, where I lived. And under that Montana, you see my aunt just leased that, she didn't own it at all, she just leased it. From the Montana down, that took in a bunch of shops; there was a bar, I think it was the Utah Bar, and then you had all different shops and sorts. Then our hotel, the one I lived in, was as you could see right now, there was no top of that, it's that bar now that has a marquee that goes out like this that says, Historic 25th Street, well, that was a bar. So our hotel had a lobby and partition rooms going back - that was our portion, we had a kitchen and bathroom. We'd go upstairs, and I don't recall how many rooms were available to rent there, but the majority; but most of the people were not just overnighters. They were regular long-term people that paid, you know, weekly and monthly. I don't know whether to throw this in or not, but I will. My aunt bootlegged down there for damn near forty years, she had these turn-arounds, these railroad guys that stay overnight. We had quite a few of those guys, and my aunt would have a kitchen table like this and these guys would come in there and pour 'em a drink - two bits, two bits, two bits, two bits - they'd be in a shot glass with water backs and so she made somewhat of a living doing that. She was also from the old country and when she came, she went to Wyoming, which was wide-open, and she ran a boarding house up there, where she was normal to do things. Well, anyway, she thought it was alright, she thought she could do it and she did. KB: Do you know what she made her moonshine with? FZ: No, no - she bought the liquor. But my uncle made the shine. Anyway, she would go to the liquor stores and buy these half-pints and sell these half-pints for half the price or 5 more than the price that she bought ‘em for. Anyway, talking about making - my uncle, not in that hotel, but we moved to a different hotel. No, in fact, we moved all the time on the street. My aunt got off 25th - she bought a house up here - 1450 25th Street - still on 25th Street - she bought a big house there so we all moved up there, and finally she got to where she couldn't afford the payment, so she had to move back - so she got the what they called the Helena Hotel, which is still established down there. Okay, so we moved in there and that was 211 25th Street. Anyway, that motel was the same, we had a big lobby and we had two spare, two flights there - we had a big hall with the rooms there, and then you'd go around and up another flight - what am I trying to say? KB: You mean another story? FZ: Yeah, another story. KB: You mean that it was a three-storied building in the end? FZ: Right. KB: Did it have a basement too? FZ: Oh yes, this I should tell you. They had a great big basement, so in that basement my uncle used to get these concord grapes by the truckloads, take ‘em down there in that basement and put' em - I don't know how he processed them, but anyway, I used to stomp on those grapes... KB: Did you? FZ: In a washtub. KB: In your bare feet? 6 FZ: In my bare feet. And then he would - I don't know the process, him making all this because I didn't want to get into that, but anyway, he would make as much as probably five to eight 55-gallon drums. He would make that and then take the vats to another apartment over around Lincoln and my aunt was renting or buying, I don't remember. But in that basement he'd take this all down there and it was dirt, all dirt - ideal for curing wine - the humidity - so he made good Dago Red - that's what we used to call it - Dago Red. If I'm boring you, just tell me. KB: No, not at all. FZ: Then on the settlings of that wine, he would have what you called "grapa" and all the settlings would come out pure white and it would be about 180 proof alcohol - you'd drink that down too. KB: Do you remember about how old you were then? FZ: Do you know? I don't. KB: Were you a teenager by then? FZ: Oh yes - I was living at the Montana up til the tenth grade, cause I quit St. Joseph's against my aunt's wishes. I quit there and went to Central to play - so I could play some sports. So, that would have been tenth grade, so a fourteen, thirteen - thirteen when I went to Central and I was still living on 160, or I don't know if I moved back, or anyway. Going back to 25th Street - so we had all the people, an enormous amount of people walk up and down that street, then at night you had all of these people from up here going down to park and watch everybody on 25th Street. It was diagonal parking and they'd sit there, they’d go down there and just watch the people on 25th Street. When I went to Central, I had quite a complex, because I was living below the belt, and so you 7 know, that gave me a real problem. But anyway, when I went to Ogden High School, I had that problem. But anyway, back to 25th Street, okay - during the war times too, I might add, when I was shining shoes at the barbershop for Joe Salimeno, there was this Bushnell Hospital, which was in Brigham City, and it was for all of these amputees from the war. It was a hospital and, there was an awful lot of these guys who knew Joe, or for some reason knew the barber. A lot of them from Colorado, where Joe was raised, and all that - so a lot of these guys came down to get their haircuts from Joe. I'd shine their shoes - one leg - they'd throw me a buck, you know. A lot of these guys, so I thought I'd throw that in, ‘cause that was interesting, the amount of these amputees coming into town. They had buses take them in, on 25th Street. During the war, across from the barbershop, they had an Army First Aid Station set up there and all of the service people could go there for anything they needed. You had our hotel and then you had some kind of space there, I think it was a hardware place. Then you had another hotel - the Windsor Hotel, and you kind of had - well - then you'd come in to the Utah Cigar Store, which is the Cutrubus - you know Cutrubus? KB: The Cutrubus Family owned it? FZ: Yes, it was Gus Cutrubus, he had a cigar store which it just took in not too much of a portion. There was the Shamrock Club, and then you had Joe Salimeno's barbershop, you had the Alexander Cafe, which was, let me tell you, that was a fine cafe, you had a lot of people coming from up above to eat in that place. You had old Bill something, I can't remember - I used to work for him, cleaning his windows, done a lot of things there. 8 And then next, you had the Marion Bar, Frank Coney run that bar and then you had the Marion Hotel and then facing Lincoln, you would go into the Marion Hotel, a big lobby then you had like a Japanese shirt laundry - okay, then next you had some other kind of store and then you had a family of Chinese people - Yee - I guess, and there was oh, let's see, one, two, three boys and about four girls and they were all Chinese - and he was what you'd call a father - he was, kind of like a pharmacist, but it was all due to the Chinese herbs and all that - I'd walk in there and the smell of that stuff would knock me out. I can remember that. So that was that portion of 25th. Many heard all these rumors of these tunnels. I suppose you heard that. I can tell you a good portion - you got that Marion Hotel and you had all those little complexes and underneath the basement part of it, were all these - the basement went to all of these places that would go clear down to the Utah Cigar Store, and that was quite a portion and it was a big basement. Now if they got these portions that they call tunnels it would really take in a quarter of the block, not a quarter, but an eighth of a block and same from the other end where you've got the big hotel and The Club and all that, cause you add them and all that - it was the basement with doors going into all these other - maybe that's where they get this tunnel system. KB: How did they access those basements? We hear about out on the sidewalks where there were elevators. FZ: Oh yeah, they had these grates that would open up and they'd put their garbage or what, bring them up. They had those. KB: That was how they'd access those basements? 9 FZ: You know, I know they had them, but I don't, I'm trying to see where they were placed, but I can't recall where. So from there on you would go - that would cover that block pretty well - across the street on the other side there was a curio shop on there and then you came up - you'd have a couple of shops there and then you had the White Front, was a hotel. Ah, I could name them, but I'd better not name the names because - that guy bootlegged there too - and then you had the Porters and Waiters downstairs, and as far as the blacks, the Porters and Waiters was probably the only part of that block at the time that was black. KB: Really? Could you tell us about Porters and Waiters? Was it a restaurant or was it a hotel or was it a combination? FZ: It was a hotel, it was Weakley, was the old boy that run it and AnnaBelle, he married AnnaBelle, I don't know if you've heard of AnnaBelle - she was a very well known black lady around town, but anyway, they had a bar in the basement, they had a restaurant and they also had a hotel there. It was all for porters and waiters, it was like a private club to them, when they'd get off the trains and everything. Basically, I guess it was built for that. So you had that and you'd go up - can't remember what would be beyond that one and then a little farther up you had Burnetti, it was a mercantile - a great big mercantile place. Andrew Burnetti was the president - his dad was the one who had the mercantile, but Andrew was the president of First Federal, Ogden First Federal or something. He was a 25th Street bum too. But anyway, his dad owned that mercantile, but they didn't live there. 10 Then the Denver Hotel and right below the Denver Hotel they had what everybody called the Holy Rollers Church - you know, one of those evangelist churches, and they'd kind of get emotional and then you had the Denver Hotel and then you had a bar and then from there that First Aid Station that I was telling you about, and then a gas station. KB: Sure. FZ: So then across from that there was - I'm on the right-hand side of the road now. KB: If you're going east? FZ: If I'm going east, okay, so on that side of the corner there was the Rose Rooms, which was a prostitute place. KB: Can you tell us what you remember about her? FZ: Well, I knew Rosie and I knew Gertie; Gertie was her sister. I knew Rosie and I knew the guy that they called their pimp. You know, he took care of all the records and everything. DB: Did you remember his name? FZ: Yes, but I really don't.... KB: Can you describe Rosie, what she was like? FZ: Tall, thin, very dark, dyed her hair real dark. Attractive, very attractive and I don't - in that business you don't see the girls, I mean they're secluded, and they're just allowed out - you know. So I really could never tell you about them. See, I lived right next door, I mean their hotel was there and the Helena Hotel was right there. Then you had the Barracho - you had a bar right below those people, and it was a wild bar. But anyway, anything you want to ask. KB: Well, let's see, just some descriptions maybe. Was Rosie nice to you? 11 FZ: Very nice. She drove around in a fuchsia colored Cadillac. One of the stories I've heard was that she owned a black panther, but I never did see it. But the story is that she did have a black panther. The fellow was a very colorful man, I mean, I think he was a mulatto - but he was very colorful, he had a thin mustache, black hair that combed out, dressed like a million bucks. For every coat he had on, he had a pair of shoes to match. I mean, I looked at him more than I did her because of the way he dressed. KB: You worked in some of those shops, but did you go to like a candy store? When you were a kid, did you go into some of those shops and spend very much time, like a candy store? FZ: Well, to think about it, getting back to the Marion Hotel, right around the corner was a soda fountain. They also had magazines - they had a soda jerk; I was in there all the time buying milk shakes. The money I get from shining shoes, I’d make some and then I'd run up there and get a milk shake. I can't remember the name, but they sold Bamberger tickets there also. The Bamberger that ran to Salt Lake, that was one of the stops because they'd sold tickets there. People would load and away they'd go. KB: Did you ever ride the Bamberger? FZ: Oh, certainly, to Lagoon - my aunt always managed to take us on Italian Day at Lagoon they'd have maybe once a year. We'd go to Lagoon, and we'd go on the Bamberger, so that was a treat. That took care of the ice cream and all of that, I did spend a lot of time in there. They had all kinds of magazines and cigar-store like- it was actually a cigar store. They sold cigars, tickets for the Bamberger, "my old pop" I used to call him, his name was Fred and he was one of the owners, and the other guy I used to call Hershey, he was an owner. And anyway, now I'll bounce back to our side of the street. 12 So now we come to our Hotel, she just rented that too, she didn't own it. But it was a very nice hotel; it isn't these hotels now. The rooms were adequate and they all had maybe a sink in them, but the restrooms were separate. You had to leave your room to go to the restrooms. They all had sinks in them. KB: Were they communal restrooms, in other words, shared them with the rest of the guests? FZ: Yes, exactly. Also, that was another deal where most of her business there were people who stayed for a length of time - you know, we had people that probably died there, I mean that stayed there and had regular rooms and everything. There my uncle made the booze down in the basement. Made wine, that is. Then going up from there, the next place was the 7-UP Bottling Works, right next to us. They made 7-UP, they made it all there, you could see them going around, how they'd do the bottles and everything. They always had an orange drink - they made one of the best orange drinks. It wasn't carbonated, it was very good. From there you went up and there was a jewelry store and you'd go upstairs and there was another hotel. Rosette's, a lot of Italian people, they were all bootleggers, and the Greeks - the Greeks and the Italians were all bootleggers. KB: Did you all stick together or were you just friends across ethnicity? FZ: Well, it depends, you know sometimes they'd fight about one another, tell 'em well, I'm going to turn you in, or you know, there was a little animosity there but you know, any more on that question? KB: Well, but you were friends, it sounded like, with some of the Greek families? 13 FZ: Well, actually I don't recall any of the Greeks actually living down there except you had the club owned by the Pappas', but they lived up there, they were "beau-coup", they were high rollers them dudes - they had gambling and everything else - they were protected. KB: So most of the people you knew on 25th Street, that you were friends with - were they more Italian or were they a little bit of everything? FZ: No, I had a black guy, that I wouldn't say I was too friendly with him, I was scared of him. He was a tough little guy, I called him Little Joe Lewis until I confronted him and then that was over, see. Then there were a lot of Spanish-Mexicans, lots of Mexicans were there. There was another Italian kid there, Joe, we were real good friends. Their dad was the biggest gangster that Ogden ever did see. He had a prostitute house up on Grant Avenue, and he owned the Canyon Club...you know, where the Thiokol Training, that big fancy place up on the canyon (Idlewild)... as their big, fancy training place up Ogden Canyon. He owned that and inside that he had gambling, he had twenty-one tables, he had roulette wheels, he had card games, he had women there, he had everything. Anyway, he got in trouble with the IRS. KB: That's okay, if you want to move on, that's all right. It sounds like you were aware of a lot of interesting people on 25th Street when you were a kid. FZ: Oh, yes. DB: Where did you play as a kid? Did you play baseball, or any other sports? FZ: Yeah, when I went to Central I played football and made first string in football, played baseball and all that. DB: Did you play with the kids around your neighborhood? 14 FZ: Not too much. There used to be a group that used to go up to the fire station - you know, which was on 26th and Grant - we had a park up there, and I'd just go up there and see these guys playing tackle football as a matter of fact and I'd just in with them guys and play. No, I didn't what have real close friends to play with down there. Anyway, going up from there you had the old theatre there - do you know where the Star Noodle is now? Right there, that was a theater, and then there was a hotel up above that. KB: Do you remember going to the movies? FZ: No, I think that one was closed. Then you had the Labor Temple, which was a lively place ‘cause they had a bar downstairs, they had gambling down there and everything, and they called it the Labor Temple. Then up above there you had a ringside gym, training boxers. KB: Do you remember going there? FZ: Oh yes. I fought in there a few times. KB: You did? You trained too? FZ: Lamar Pierce owned it. I knew him and I ran around with his brother Dick a little bit, and we used to get in the ring together. They had a time there, such fighters as Keith Nettle was quite prominent, and Buddy Washington, black fellow - they were very good fighters. He had - I knew his manager, Ed Poppleton - ah, Burke was his name, and he fought for the middle-weight championship of the world, some Armstrong black guy, but anyway that's sports. So the Labor Temple, then up a little farther you had another theatre and then eventually they made a liquor store in there, and then you had the bus depot which is there now. 15 KB: Can you tell us what you remember about the bus depot? FZ: No, other than a bus depot is a bus depot. At the time there was a lot of bus traveling, the place used to be pretty packed like the train station. KB: Could you eat in there? FZ: Yes, they had a restaurant; in fact I'm sure I ate in it. Coming back down on Washington, you had the old Broom Hotel right on the corner. Below that you had all these shops. You had the Rodeo Grill, and then you had Ross and Jacks, which had the best hot hamburger sandwiches you could ever imagine, and it was a big place, Ross and Jacks - they did very good, they did a real good business. KB: Was it expensive? FZ: No, I don't think so. It was probably comparable to the times, I guess. And then next you had the Senate Cafe, which was Chinese... I loved to go in there. After church on Sundays, my aunt used to take us in there for lunch. We'd have a bowl of soup with those little oyster crackers, oh, I loved that. Anyway, that was a real nice place and they did real good and then you had the clothing store, a Jewish fella had that. Then you had a pool hall, you had a bar on the corner and we're on Kiesel. Across Kiesel and then right on the corner there was a hot dog stand that made the best hot dogs you can ever imagine. They were foot-long hot dogs and they had that chili kind of sauce over it; not actually chili, but a sauce with onions and the pickle relish. I'd die for a hot dog like that. You had that and you had Mecca - they had something downstairs in that place, but I don't recall. The Mecca was a big bar - old guys used to go there and sit and play cards - not that they were gambling. They were just friendly games of cards. Next to that was another clothing store, I think, and then you had The 16 Mint, and that was another bar, and they had pool tables; they had a good bar there, and that did very good. Fact I used to borrow from them guys when I needed money. They were good to me in there. Upstairs you had another hotel up there, a place they did horse betting - they'd bet on ponies and all that...it was kind of a private deal to get up there. As much as I was around there, I never tried ever. Then you had an Ogden Distributing Company that distributed beer; I knew them people real well, and then you had another bar, Kersell's Bar, and then up above them was the other hotel I lived in. We moved, we moved back and my aunt called that the Montana Hotel, so I lived there until I got married. From there, let's see, we had the distributor and then there was another bar, and Armstrong Sporting Goods, which was a big store...that was always a big store in Ogden, Armstrong Sporting. Then you had on the corner another bar, yeah, another bar. Then you crossed the street, and across the street you had another hotel and for the life of me I can't remember the name of that place. Next to that hotel, you had the Friendly Bar...bars, bars, bars...the Friendly Bar and then down a little ways you had little shops and then you had another hotel. KB: You were telling us about Nick, the Greek. FZ: Okay. He had a shine parlor there that I worked in, and then you had another cafe that was run by some Japanese people;.Then you go down a little ways and you had a place called Lucia's and in there they had these kind of machines that you put in, they had an arm come out and you pick up a, you know, you've seen them around. KB: A toy, yes. 17 FZ: And they had different kinds of amusement machines...but in the back, in the back they had gambling and anyway, that was Lucky's. I remember the guy that run that real well. Then you go down and you had another...oh, the Eagle Clothing Store which was owned by some Jewish people - Sam and his wife. Then up above that was another prostitute house, there was more than I'm naming probably, but anyway, that was one. Then below that you had another bar and then a restaurant. Then you had that vacant lot there and then you had this one bar - that Pioneer Bar was a great bar - all kind of cedar like, it was real fancy - well, Harm Perry, the Mayor, owned that bar. Up there at the mouth of the canyon, Harm Perry owned a curio... KB: Like Rainbow Gardens? FZ: Rainbow Gardens; I'm trying to think what they called it before...I guess the Rainbow Gardens. But anyway, he owned that and then he owned the Old Mill where all them condos are on 12th Street. Well, Harm Perry owned all that and he was the Mayor and the 24th of July Parade used to go right down 25th Street because Harm Perry was always the leader of that, being the mayor. He'd ride his horse right into that Pioneer Bar, parading around in there with his horse and all that - that was something. You had a little lady, Japanese lady as a barber, she ran barber, fact her son was Wak Misaka, he was on one of them winning teams at the University of Utah when they took the championship one year. KB: Baseball? FZ: No, a basketball. It wasn't an NCAA one, it was the other one, but they took it, they won the whole thing. DB: National Invitational Tournament? 18 FZ: Yeah, yeah, ok. So anyway, he was on that team. Then you had Gomer Nicholas' Grocery Store. KB: Is that where your aunt would shop? FZ: Yeah, uh huh - she did a lot. Old man Gomer, I remember them. KB: Do you remember going in there and what it looked like? FZ: Well it was just rows of grocery. Nothing fancy. My aunt really didn't do a lot there; she used to go over on 24th Street to the Dinner Horn. You leave there, you'd go upstairs and you had another - this was the Key Club, they called it. You had to belong to it, it was a private club, right below the El Burracho, a Mexican restaurant. KB: Did you see very many policemen? FZ: Oh yes, Shanks, he was a patrolman. Jack Bedoff, he was a patrolman. Shanks, as I remember, was the main - there was other detectives and all that, but old Shanks probably the one guy who walked the streets. Oh, during the war, I might add, with all the amount of military that was in around here, we had the Air Police (APs), we had Shore Patrol (SP), Naval Shore Patrol, in fact - I remember this guy was running away from an SP officer and the officer ran after him. He ran through this alley and the Shore Patrol yelled, "Stop or I'll shoot," and the guy kept going and he shot. But he didn't hit him. DB: Were the police, with all this bootlegging and illegal stuff going on, were the police pretty corrupt? FZ: The Mayor was as corrupt as corrupt can be. He was running all these thugs and things, up that canyon, up farther, you've got Perry Estates, that's still there. I don't know who still owns them all now, but there's a portion up there, right up through Ogden Canyon - 19 old Harm - he was pretty open about everything. My aunt never actually got caught until she had to move out of the hotel and they tore it down for the Federal Building to go in. That's when they picked her up, they hit her just before that. KB: But otherwise, do you think the policemen maybe turned a blind eye? FZ: I would have to say you'd never hear about too many arrests there, so turning a blind eye might be the thing. I don't ever remember any payola's that they would be, to my knowledge, and I know my aunt was never, you know - maybe these bigger gambling places and stuff like that. KB: Someone else we spoke with remembered fights, just seeing fights and things like that. Do you remember that? FZ: Lots of times. I know my brother - I think it was right in front of Goldman's Necklace this guy called my aunt a foreigner. My brother knocked him right through a big bay window. As I gather, there were an awful lot of fights. DB: Was there any place that you weren't allowed to go because you were a foreigner? Was there any place that said "No Italians" or something like that? FZ: Oh, no. DB: I know there were signs that said, "No Blacks, No Mexicans," FZ: No, I never remember...my aunt used to talk Italian to me and I'm sorry I never learned...because I was ashamed...because we were born in Italy...you know. But, no, I don't remember any kind of treatment of that sort. That's a good point though - I might have to look back and think about that, ‘cause I don't ever remember being chastised or anything. KB: Tell us about the train station. Do you remember that? Did you spend time in there? 20 FZ: Very beautiful station I mean, they had all these wooden benches in there. The place used to be packed. One thing I can remember is when my brother, being in the service, when he was coming in, we'd all run down to meet him at the train station. It went underneath...you'd go down and you'd walk down to this track and you'd walk down to that track, up to this track, down to that tracks. My recollection is mainly that. It was always crowded there...it did a lot of business too, I mean the shops in there with all different things, they employed a lot of people there. That's about all I can say about that. KB: Did you watch trains come in or out? Did you spend much time down that way? FZ: No, I didn't - when I was shining shoes I'd go down through there, trying to catch someone for a shine. Then the troop trains were - that was pretty profitable because them guys...they didn't care that they was throwing their money away and same with the papers. A lot of times I'd say, “Paper?” They'd say, “I can't read, but here's a buck.” They'd not take the paper, but they'd give me money. DB: Would you explain just a little bit about AnnaBelle, a little more about her? FZ: Well, she was all business. She was a real business lady. She was shady, she had to be. But she was a very respected black lady. My brother worked for Gateway Distribution when they sold all kinds of restaurant things. She'd come in there to get her stuff and I'd always talk to her in there. Right to this day, it wasn't very long ago that I ran into her, it was maybe three years, maybe four or five that I ran into her over in Wendover. Boy, right away we were old buddies. She had some pretty shiny guys. There was this Lyle, Japanese guy now, that she was sportin’ with - I don't know the connection - he was a shady character. Then she was known to be affiliated with this 21 Freight Train, they called him. He was a robber; he robbed a bank here in Ogden. I think she got all of his money because they did catch him but they never did get the money. No, she was a very, very nice lady. KB: She ran Porters and Waiters? FZ: Her husband originally owned and ran Porters and Waiters. He was quite older than she was. She took it on and did a real good job. I used to go down there...she used to serve some of the best Mexican food there ever was. KB: Is that right? FZ: Yeah, she had a great Mexican dinner and she always had good music - oh, the music down there was great. DB: Was there a lot of organized crime or was the bootlegging more individual? FZ: Just individuals. I don't recall any kind of organized affiliations at all. All the people I knew that was, probably they were all individuals. KB: How did you get around? Did you ride a bike, or did you walk to most places? FZ: I did have a bicycle, but mostly just walked. In fact, when I walked to school from there to Ogden Central - there was a group of guys that I ran with from 21st Street, they'd come right up to my hotel and I'd go with them and we'd walk to school. Then going to Ogden High, I used to catch a bus up on Washington Boulevard and then take it to Ogden High. KB: Did you ever ride the train? FZ: One time when I went to California, but that was it. That was it. KB: Were you a grown up by then? 22 FZ: No, I went with my cousin and her two boys. They were going there and they felt sorry for me, so they took me. KB: Was it quite a trip? FZ: Yeah - went to Torrance, California. It was real fun. You know, I don't know if I covered everything that I wanted to try to tell you these exact places and everything. I could give you the names of the people, but I'd rather not. I might have said too much about AnnaBelle, but AnnaBelle was a lovely lady. DB: What would you like to see happen to 25th Street? FZ: I think they're doing a marvelous job down there except they still got these panhandlers roaming down around there. With the exception of that, I think they're doing a wonderful job. I go down there and kind of go over my memory and places and I can't do it because so many things have changed there. That's been a long time ago. Why don't you tell me some of the things some of the other people have touched on. KB: There was a fellow that we talked to yesterday who remembered he didn't see a lot of panhandlers on 25th Street when he was a kid. What about you? Not really...maybe more alcoholics? FZ: Yes, there were a few of those guys. DB: What about hobos? FZ: Yes, you always had those, course they would probably go through the alleys more than go up through the streets. KB: This fellow also said that not necessarily things were going on in the front of the stores on 25th Street but maybe in the back, or back in the alleys. 23 FZ: True. As far as fights, as far as crap games going on, there was a lot of live crap games that I'd see a bunch of guys out there shooting dice, out in the alleys there. KB: What did you do for fun when you were a kid on the streets? You worked a lot. FZ: Oh, you know, I was working in the hotel. You know, my aunt made us work. I had chores to do. I had to scrub stairs, scrub floors, or whatever. I told you about how I felt, about the inferior complex. I wasn't affected as much as my sister, because you know, a girl living down there, it's different. She just couldn't cope with a lot of it. KB: Even during the war era was it thought of as more below the... FZ: Oh yes, I told you these people up here came down there and parked just to see the people on 25th Street. DB: Kind of like an animal? FZ: Like we were strange people. But then again, they were looking for these drunks to come out of the bars. You couldn't get a parking place down there, believe me. They would fill those parking places in and all along 25th Street. Not so much the next street, but all through that...it was like a circus, I guess they thought. Some of those places attracted them people. Like the Alexander Cafe, it was a real prominent cafe - that guy had a lot of prominent people come down there and eat. And then you had – well, other than that you had these little shirt places, the laundry... a lot of people had their things there, that Chinese pharmacist, I knew that family well, but I could never figure out what he was doing. Other than making that stinking stuff or whatever he was making. KB: When the war broke out, did it change 25th Street a lot or just make it busier? FZ: Well, naturally it added - boomed the town - because all the troop trains were coming through and they had layovers here and stuff like that. And when a troop train stopped, 24 ah man, there was these soldiers just flooding the streets. So it had a boomer, it really did. Prior to that, I mean, there was still people coming down there and parking, even before the war. KB: Let’s see. Tell us about that Montana Hotel - what were the colors, and how big would the parlor be, and so on? FZ: Well, the lobby wasn't very big, it had a little counter right in the corner where they had to enter their name and address and all that so you had that portion of it. Then whatever you're charging, you know...I don't recall making a receipt or anything. KB: Did you work at the desk? FZ: Occasionally. My aunt would tell me what rooms were available for rent and so I'd have to take them and show them and whatever. But it wasn't very fancy, it was just a room. Like I say, these guys were usually older guys that lived there almost permanent. Then you'd have so much walk-in business. We had the lobby and that desk and then we had another room. It was all opened, it was just boxed clear up to the ceiling, you know. You could see in there and the rooms were just partitioned. So my aunt had a living room there - a sofa, I don't think a TV was going then, I'm sure it wasn't. She'd do her ironing, she had a mangle, she did all her own laundry, she'd wash the sheets for the rooms. She had a mangle – a mangle is an iron, it rolls and turns it in there...anyway, she had one of those - she did all her own laundry and everything. I mean, these people came from nothing...I mean, that's why they lived where they lived, because they were practically starving. My aunt was, more so then my uncle - my uncle was the one that I was related to, he was my dad's brother - but my aunt, oh, she was a genius. 25 KB: An innovative woman knew how to get by? FZ: Very, very, and she wasn't afraid of nobody. She used to go up to City Hall; if she didn't like something, she'd let them know...the mayor, the Chief of Police or whatever, she’d go. She'd go up and talk real broken and she let them know, she wasn't afraid of nobody. I've seen her throw a few guys down the steps. She was some lady and I just wish some of that had rubbed off on me, because she wasn't afraid to do nothing. She made pretty good money too. She was the only one who became an American citizen. My uncle, my parents - neither one were American citizens, as far as taking the pledge and all of that - my aunt did. I have to, bless her heart...boy, every election day that she could go vote - whether she was sick or not, she'd be right down there voting. And after voting, she'd go get a few drinks. She was proud, she was very proud to be an American. Near the hotel there was a big Pacific Fruit building, and they had a big dock going down, and there was a ball park. KB: Did you play in there? FZ: Oh yeah, I played there. There was a big long dock that we'd roller skate down there, or ride the bicycle down the ramp. They used to load off that dock. Then there was the big lumber company on Wall Avenue, they stored a lot of lumber around there. There were parks around there that we could go to that were not very far, and I remember I wanted to play and there was this one fellow he was pegged-leg - he had one leg and he lived with us there, periodically he'd leave and then come back - anyway, he would pitch to me. I mean, he was good. He taught me a lot of things, that old boy, and I remember 26 having him show me a lot about baseball...he had a pegged leg, but the way he threw and kicked that leg out, you know, the wooden one, it was something to see. KB: And where would you be? FZ: That was in the back - we had an alley way that run through there with space, you know, and between that alley row, ‘cause you know you had all the backs to those places, deliveries - a lot of deliveries were made right through the alley in the back. Probably all the way up to Washington Boulevard, and those alley ways could provide goods to be delivered, beer to be delivered; they used to have chutes for this beer, that thing you were talking about. KB: The elevator chutes. FZ: Yeah, I remember that there was one that could open up and they had like a trap goin’ down - they'd put kegs of beer on it and just shoot ‘em down. Then they had a rubber mat when they hit the mat. I remember that kind of deal. Miss Burnside, has anybody come up with the tunnels there now? You know, you read in the papers - I've read a hundred times - like I say, if there is, I don't know - I've been in the Montana there where we had a great big basement, but there was no tunnels goin here or there. With the Montana, we had - not a big basement, but we had a basement there. It was all coal too - you had coal chutes there, to throw all the coal down, and they were all coal. They had these coal chutes, you know, and they had steam heat, and they had to deliver the coal through them chutes. I worked as a waiter at Riggo's Restaurant - I worked at Swifts and Company - and in time I took a part time job and worked as a waiter at Riggo's Restaurant. It was on 28th Street and Washington Boulevard. It was one of the best, started out as a submarine 27 sandwich. He had pizzas, he was the first one to have pizzas here in Ogden; then he gradually grew into a big nice steak place. I mean, it was top of the town, boy, it was. Anyway, I waited tables in there. This guy, Fred DePico was his name. Anyway, this guy, his wife worked in there during the day as a waitress and they were in the process of getting divorced, or in a divorce, or whatever; I don't know. Anyway, she was pulling her own with it. Well, he got upset, so he went in and dragged her out, shot her, and then he shot himself, right in front of Riggo's. I mean dead, both of ‘em dead. DB: Do you know what year? FZ: No, I was older; anyway, I went to the viewing, and coming out of the viewing, this guy, I'm telling you, is the biggest gangster - he looked at me and said, “Who's that in there?” He thought it was me - Fred DePico and Fred Zampedri - so he was there. KB: To come see you. FZ: So I gotta say, I knew once who was going to be at my viewing; ‘course he's dead, now. But I thought that was kind of amusing. KB: Yeah. So you kind of rubbed shoulders with a few of those guys? FZ: Oh yeah, well I tell you - when this guy - he had the Canyon Club up there. He'd never let us in it, but we took care of the lawns up there, ‘cause I ran around with his stepson and he'd never let us inside, but we always did the grounds up there. When we were done, we'd have to sit in his car and wait for him to go back; somebody would take us back, but he was that private. DB: What did couples do - where would you go to find a date for like a singles bar? Were there singles bars? 28 FZ: Well basically we used to always go to the Rainbow Gardens. They called it the Injun Village, downstairs. They had a dance place up there, and man, that was a hot spot for us, ‘cause the guy, Bill Bockas, he had a band that played there, and we were like in high school or right after high school. That was the place. DB: Where did you meet your wife? FZ: She was a carhop at Ritchies. Do you know where Ritchies is? Did you ever hear of Ritchies? DB: No. FZ: That was a big drive-in on Riverdale Road which is Hoppi's Night Life private club but that was a drive-in then. That was our hang-out; everybody used to hang out there, and that's where I met her at. KB: Did you hang out at any other places? DB: Just basically on 25th Street? FZ: No, I never frequented any place on 25th Street. DB: Was there anything for dating? KB: Not for kids, other than the Malt Shop, it sounds like. FZ: Yeah, yeah KB: So did you have a favorite malt? How did they mix them? FZ: With real ice cream. Man, I haven't touched a scoop that big of ice cream in years. I'd have ice sundaes, root beer floats - my aunt used to get mad at me ‘cause I was spending all my money there on malts and that. Although I got to say one thing, my aunt took care of us. I mean, in order to keep five of us together; this was another thing that just used to bother me. 29 I used to hear my uncle say sometimes, “Well, we can't afford them - we're going to have to farm them out.” Always remembered that, so that was a very unpleasant thing to me, as being a kid, you know, growing up. But she was a generous lady. She had four kids of her own, but they were mostly grown and on their own. But to have four of ‘em and take five, you know, you had to do everything you could to make a buck. DB: Did she cook dinner for all of you? Did you sit down and eat together? FZ: My uncle did. My uncle cooked, and he had like a three-course dinner. You always had a bowl of soup, you had some pasta. Sometimes I couldn't eat that soup, but I had to eat it. KB: What kind was it? FZ: Vegetable, and right now I'd kill for that I would, for a fact. But at the time, you know, I had to eat it in order to get any of the other goodies, I had to eat that. KB: And then what else? FZ: Palenta corn meal cake with a nice sauce, like a brown gravy made with garlic and bay leaves and all that. He did that well. My wife makes it pretty good now too. This is what I had for breakfast, would be either corn flakes or milk and then he had a pan what he'd make - he used to chop it all up in little pieces and you take a bowl of that and put in your coffee - samortan he called it, it was real good, I liked it. Then we had a lot of spaghetti, oh, lots of spaghetti. KB: Home-made noodles? FZ: No, nope by golly no, we used to buy em. KB: By then you could buy them? DB: Was it homemade sauce though? 30 FZ: Yep, but you know, the way he made it he didn't use a lot of sauce. But he used to buy this parmesan cheese in a great big brick and grate it and that cheese was so good - he grated it on that hot spaghetti and melt all through there and then he'd make just enough sauce to color, you know, not smother, but just to color that spaghetti. Ah man, it was the cheese and some other something he'd put in that - I don't know, but boy that was good spaghetti. No, he hardly used any sauce. They used a lot of butter and garlic, you know, make butter and garlic and he'd use a lot of that. He'd cook all this broth with all these vegetables in it, and make a nice broth; then he'd drain all the vegetables out and then he'd take cut up meat - little pieces of meat - chopped them all up and then he'd take ham, put all the ham and then take salami, good salami; put it all together. Then he'd make a dumpling, he'd put it in that broth, cook it. That dumpling would get that big. Then you'd put it in that broth and have one of those dumplings with that parmesan cheese on it. He made a lot meat, but not in the form of big thick steaks or anything, just always salad. I didn't know there was any other kind of dressing but oil and vinegar. When I ever went out to a date or something you'd order – “What kind of dressing?” “What else is there?” But we did eat well yeah my uncle did all the cooking and did pretty good. Another thing that my aunt was very good about was holidays. She enjoyed holidays. Turkey day we'd have a room full of relatives. I mean everybody, and always end up in a fight, that's Italians for you, always end up in a fight. Christmas would be the same thing, big kind of parties and that, and end up in a fight. But you know, I look back on the whole situation as far as my childhood now, and hey I could have learned Italian, could have done this. I'm not ashamed now, but at the time I 31 was very ashamed; I was afraid, I didn't want to tell people that I lived down on 25th Street. I used to double date with my friends, they always had a car. He'd take my girl home first, and I'd say just drop me off on 25th and Washington Boulevard. KB: Do you think it was an era when people, if they were ethnic people, they were trying to anglicize to fit into American Society? FZ: No, I don't think that way. KB: Or, just you know, there was a lot clearer line back then about what was proper and wasn't, maybe? FZ: Right, that's true, that's very true. KB: So if 25th Street wasn't across the line, it was just on the line. FZ: Right, and that's one thing that really got me. When I went to Ogden High School they didn't have the tenth grade then they only had the eleventh and twelfth grade so I went into the eleventh grade but all the clubs they had all-boys clubs, and the girls had their clubs too, but I was rushed to Sauce, Sigma, 4-0. I was rushed to all the clubs, so I felt somewhat that I was wanted and accepted to be rushed to all those clubs. KB: And now because you lived on 25th Street you're famous to us. FZ: Yeah, but boy, let me tell you, I look back now and I just wish that I would have learned more about - would have paid more attention to my heritage instead of being ashamed of it, and especially the language. I went over to Italy - I've been over there twice now - I went over there and visited with my aunt, and if you don't talk, you do everything motion-wise, or try this or try that. We did that for a month over there. My aunt is very humble, very humble living at the time. They lived a lot better now because I was over 32 there four years ago, I went back over there, but boy, they were living pretty. My aunt since, she's died, but I've got a lot of cousins left over there. KB: Thank you for letting us come and talk with you today. 33