Community Oral History Stephen Dirks Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 18 September 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Dirks, Stephen, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 18 September 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview September 18, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewee: Stephen Dirks Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with Stephen Dirks, conducted September 18, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, Stephen Dirks recalls his time as Mayor of Ogden (1973-1983) and his efforts to save the Union Station and help it transform into a museum and community center. He speaks of important national contributions of Ogdenites and how the railroad often made such contributions possible. AK: Today is September 18th, 2023. I am in the Union Station, speaking with Stephen Dirks, for the Ogden Union Station Centennial Exhibit. My name is Alyssa Kammerman, and I'll be conducting the interview. So starting out, I wanted to learn a little bit about your background. What was your career like before you became mayor of Ogden City? SD: So at the time that I became mayor of Ogden City, I was working for the Bank of Utah, in the marketing department. And prior to that, I had been drafted in the military and spent time with the military. And prior to that, I'd been in college. So at the time that I was elected, I was actually the youngest mayor elected in Ogden at the time. So that's kind of what I was doing at the time that I was elected. 1 of 34 But how I got involved in the politics in Ogden: my dad worked for the federal government, and so he was subject to the Hatch Act, and so he couldn't participate directly in politics. But it was something that he and my mom were always interested in, and it was a subject that was talked about at our dinner table as I was growing up. So it was something that I was kind of interested in. And at the time, 1973, was the time that Watergate was going on, and the Watergate hearings. And Gordon Strawn, who was one of the attorneys for Nixon in the White House, testified before the committee and Senator Eastman asked him what his advice to other young people concerning politics was. And he said, "Well, they should stay out of it," because he had really gotten into a good deal of trouble by his involvement in the White House. And I thought, "You know, that's really kind of the wrong answer. If you're going to improve the situation, improve politics, you need to be more involved and not less involved.” So, that thought occurred to me, and I was, one evening, sitting with a bunch of friends in a local establishment and talking about this and that, and I had seen in the paper that the mayor, his position was up for election. And so I just, you know, as much just as conversation, rather than a real consideration, I said, "Mayor's job is open," and, you know, "I'm thinking maybe I'm going to run for it." And, you know, everybody thought it was a terrific idea, and, you know, one thing led to another, and I woke up the next morning, I thought, "Gee, I really kind of am serious about wanting to, you know, see what happens to do that." And so I went and talked to my parents and they were quite enthusiastic. But towards the end of the conversation, my mom says, "This is a really good 2 of 34 idea, but you're not going to be too disappointed when you lose, are ya?" "No, Mom." You know, wanting to protect her kid. Anyway, so that's kind of the genesis of my running for mayor and where I was at the time that I ran for mayor, working at the Bank of Utah, single man, and, you know, enjoyed the community, skiing and all of those kinds of things. AK: How old were you? SD: I was 30 at the time. AK: Do you think that was a pretty big obstacle, that you were still so young; did people look down on you for that? SD: I never felt like it really was, you know, in running for the office. People were generally pretty supportive, and the folks I talked to it... You know, that's the interesting thing about politics; I never won an election unanimously, but I never have spoken to a person who didn't say they voted for me, you know. So, anyway, but yeah, overall it was a good experience and I didn't think age was - in my mind, at least - not that much of a problem. The thing that was interesting around that, also being single: I'd gone to the Standard-Examiner and had a little press release that I handed out in the city. Editor Flora Ogan was there, and then Cliff Thompson, who covered the city for the Standard-Examiner. And so she introduced me to him and said, "This is Steve Dirks. He's running for office." And he looked at me and kind of laughed because I was so young. But, you know, so anyway, we went through the campaign, morning after the election, he called up and he said, "Let me get a little bit more background in facts, you know, Ogden. Now, what is your wife's 3 of 34 name?" And I said, "I'm not married." You know, it had never come up as an issue, so, at that point maybe age became an issue, because I was now going to hold the position and nobody that young ever held the position before. I know there was a mayor in the late ‘40s, his name was Bramwell, and he was, I think, in about his mid-thirties. Anyway, he kind of got involved in some underhanded sort of things, partly as I understand it, because of his inexperience and he got in legal trouble for what he did. So there were a few folks who, “You've got to be very careful, you know, remembering Bramwell's experience.” But anyway, that was... AK: That's so interesting. Was the fact that you were unmarried any kind of a stigma against you? SD: It became a topic of conversation. I don't know that it was ever an issue in terms of the office and holding the office and interacting with the city and, you know, the council and all of those kinds of things. So, no, it wasn't, but it was a top topic of conversation. And I did get married while I was still mayor. In fact, after we had our wedding here at Union Station, and the reception line was in the grand lobby and then the theater annex here was where the reception was. And at the time, there was an Amtrak train that went from east to west; from here, it went to San Francisco. And that's where Barbara and I went on our honeymoon and got on the Amtrak train, and rode down to San Francisco. So there's that additional connection to the Station. AK: So when you were running for office, was the preservation of Union Station even on your radar at all during that time? 4 of 34 SD: No, it wasn't. You know, the railroad had been very much an important part of, of course, the development of Ogden and the commerce and all the way through. By 1973, the only passenger service in the country was Amtrak. Like I said, we just had the one train that went east to west that came through the Station. At the height, as I understand it, during the Second World War, there was maybe as many as 250 trains a day that came through Ogden. Passenger trains, you know, so the Station was here. It was still owned by the Union Depot Company, and it was still operational, so. And they had that Amtrak train in it. I'm thinking they still had a few officers, people who were dispatchers and that kind of thing that worked out of the buildings. So when I was first elected, it was a feature of Ogden. It was there, but it wasn't anything, I think, on any kind of radar or anything like that. It was just, you know, part of the community. AK: So it wasn't in danger of being closed down at that time? SD: No, there wasn't any issue about it being closed down or any concerns that it would be at all, when I was first elected. At that time the overall concern was, as far as redevelopment in downtown Ogden is, Ogden had been a pretty vibrant downtown and kind of a regional shopping facility. There were JCPenney's and ZCMI, Castleton's and Farr’s Jewelry, you know, pretty vibrant downtown community, although it had begun to decline, the downtown had. And so there were vacant buildings along Washington Boulevard. So that was one of the issues in that first election, is the fact that there was vacant buildings along Washington Boulevard. 5 of 34 One of the other issues was that there was a developer that wanted to build the mall, and at the time, the retail landscape was changing and going from the downtown areas to suburban malls. So that was kind of one of the issues: the developers wanted to build a mall out on 12th Street in the city, and he never could get it together. So that situation was of concern to some in the community, and that was one of the things that I talked about in the campaign, was the need to bring new retail vibrancy to Ogden. And at that point, there wasn't any specific plan in mind, but in that overall general context. And you had, of course, 25th Street, which perhaps was distinct from the downtown area that they were concerned about. 25th Street, of course, had had a historical reputation for all kinds of not-nice activities, not above board. And of course, it had been a very vibrant place, but at that point, 25th Street had also deteriorated to a great degree. A lot of empty buildings, and what was left was mostly bars. There were some restaurants: the Utah Noodle Parlor on 25th Street; wonderful Chinese food. Excellent Chinese food. And then on Lower 25th Street, just about a quarter block from Union Station was the Porters and Waiters Club. And the Porters and Waiters were originally set up as people that worked on the railroad. They worked on the rail as porters and waiters, and then when they had late layovers and things here, the Porters and Waiters Club would be where they stayed, but they also had a restaurant there that served really great Mexican food. So that was one of the places that we hung out when I was in college. 6 of 34 But so anyway, the downtown was kind of in a state of flux, and some of the city wanted to do something about it. 25th Street as a separate issue: a lot of the “good folks” or whatever [chuckles] were not proud of 25th Street or its history, and would have just as soon torn it all down as anything else. So that's kind of where we were with that. AK: What were your feelings on that? Were you wanting to preserve the history or were you more wanting to start over fresh? SD: Well, as far as 25th Street was concerned, I thought it was worth preserving, you know, and make a destination. And I guess at about that same time where all of those things were kind of happening was when the city was approached about having the Union Station donated to the city. So then that became a logical element of wanting to develop 25th Street. So this could be a major anchor to whatever activities was going on 25th Street, and a vibrant 25th Street would also help Union Station live up to its potential, so. AK: It's fascinating that they're connected in a way. Is that correct? SD: Yes. Yeah. Oh, very definitely. I mean, people would come through and describe walking up 25th Street and looking at the mountains and, you know, the... It was a magnificent sight. You know, the whole thing, when the railroad was really going. I mean, 25th Street was really quite something. And so, it had been connected. It should be connected. AK: Just out of curiosity, did you grow up here? SD: No, I did not. I was born in Salt Lake. My dad worked for the federal government and he was at Fort Douglas during the Second World War. And then after the 7 of 34 war, like 1948, he was transferred to the Presidio in San Francisco. And so we moved, took the railroad down. I recall that trip as a very young child – down to San Francisco, and that's where I grew up. Went to grade school and high school and then graduated from high school. My dad was transferred then to the Defense Depot Ogden, and so that's how the family moved back here. So about 1962, I guess maybe '63, that's when we moved here and have been here ever since. So this is home. AK: I was curious, because I was wondering if you had memories of the Union Station as the bustling hub that it used to be. SD: No, I mean, not really as a young child. Like I said, by the time I was, say, in high school, the passenger service had gone down. There were still some, I think, postal facilities and some railroad workers that worked in the building. But it was not the vibrant anchor in the community that it had been in years earlier. AK: Do you know... I mean, you may not have been around to know, but I'm curious if there was some fear as people watched the passenger service diminish here. Was there a fear for the economy of Ogden? Do you happen to remember? I don't know if you were too young, but… SD: You mean the downturn in passengers coming through the Station as part of the economy? AK: Yeah. Just because people talk about how Ogden was built because of the railroad. And I wondered if, as passenger service on the rails started to diminish, if people saw that and were alarmed? Or if it was just such a slow transition that it was not really on anyone's radar? 8 of 34 SD: No. Yeah. Ogden was actually... a compromise in terms of being a railroad center. When the railroad was built, the gentiles wanted the major interchange, major city to be Corrinne in Box Elder County, and the members of the LDS Church wanted to be in Salt Lake City, you know, so there was that tension. But then eventually, Ogden became the compromise in terms of the major railroad intersection and the Union Station and all of that. So Ogden had been important in the development of the railroad, but at the same time the railroad was developing, there was a lot of commerce that took place in Ogden. So First Security Bank, which was the largest bank in the state, and its chairman was Marriner Eccles, and he was appointed by President Roosevelt to be chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank. So during the 1930s, in that kind of re-imagining of what the Federal Reserve Bank could do in terms of the economy, the guy that headed that up was a citizen of Ogden, you know, came from here. So there was that commerce. In addition, E. A. Wattis headed Utah Construction at the time, which later on became Utah International. And, as I understand it, the five companies that went on to build Hoover Dam came to the agreement in a meeting that they had at Wattis' home on Eccles Avenue in Ogden, and so... Conoco later was bought by Phillips most recently, but anyway Conoco was started here in Ogden. So while the railroad was important, there was a whole lot of other important commerce that was going on too at the same time, because the natural location of Ogden, you know, kind of being equidistant from Seattle and San Francisco and Los Angeles, it was a natural distribution center. 9 of 34 But one whole area of commerce and the other area of commerce was, again, because of our location, the Defense Depot Ogden and then the Hill Air Force Base during the Second World War. They were the major employers. So while the railroad was important to the development of Ogden and during the 1940s during the war, when it was so busy…as impactful on the community as it was, after the war, and the railroad started to decline from its peaks, you had these other commercial activities, the government employment. So you had Defense Department Ogden, you had the Forest Service has a regional headquarters here in Ogden, you have Hill Air Force Base. And they were the major employers in the area. And while passenger service had declined, there was still a pretty good community of people that were conductors and engineers on the railroad, so that was pretty broad, and that continued for a good long period of time. So it wasn't like losing our major industry. It was just kind of the change and the mix of the whole thing. AK: Yeah, no, that's helpful. Those were very good points because, in my mind, I was thinking, “Okay, the railroads petered out, and therefore, that's why there was urban decay.” But it sounds like that's not completely true; There were a lot of other things keeping Ogden afloat during that time. SD: Yeah. You know, there were a whole lot of other things. Like I say, at the time, in the early 1970s, Washington Boulevard, between about 26th to 22nd Street. And then, you know, also on either side of that was some really nice stores, nice department stores for, you know, Boyle Furniture Company and Madsen Furniture Company, you know, were really pretty high-end retailers, as well as 10 of 34 some of the clothing stores. At Christmas time, it was like you see in the movies when they depict Christmas: the whole crowds of people downtown shopping and looking at the windows. It was that, you know. So it was pretty vibrant, although it was, like I say, changing. The whole retail environment was changing. AK: I'm curious. I feel like for people who haven't lived in Ogden, the reputation of 25th Street almost became Ogden's reputation. But do you feel like the state of 25th Street and Union Station had a big impact on Ogden as a whole in reality, if that makes sense? SD: Yeah, that's interesting that to a lot of people outside of Ogden, 25th Street was something to be feared. Why in the world would you ever go to Ogden? You know, because of all the different things that supposedly went on. But the thing that's interesting is when people did come to Ogden, they found a very engaging, vibrant community. And 25th Street, while it had been and was a part of Ogden, it wasn't Ogden. You know, it was an element, but it wasn't all of it. So, yeah, you're right; Ogden did have a reputation because of 25th Street, but the community itself: 25th Street was just a thing that was there. But the community went on about its business in spite of it. And it wasn't like a major focus of everybody that concerned about it. AK: Makes sense. So I'm a little curious to learn more about... You said at the time when you were elected, in 1973, so the economy was kind of changing from downtown shopping to malls. And so I was wondering if, before Ogden had a mall, do you feel like a lot of the commerce was going outside of Ogden, to malls 11 of 34 in Salt Lake or other places like that? Like, how important was that to bring a mall to Ogden? SD: Well. Ogden... In terms of shopping, before we got the mall downtown, it was still a regional shopping center. So folks from Pocatello would come down and Logan and, you know, anywhere from Centerville, north, this was kind of the shopping center. You know, sort of regional commerce center, if you will. But that was changing. So we went about... Well, the suburban shopping center was the thing that had happened. And then kind of suddenly it was changing among some of the developers that, rather than go to the expense of having the infrastructure and stuff built in the suburban areas, the idea of bringing mall experience into downtown areas started to become a thing. So that's what happened with Ogden. We went out and found a developer who was considering wanting to come to an urban center, and he became interested in Ogden. So we went through a whole thing to get the mall developed. Ogden City built the parking structure for the use of the mall. We issued tax increment financing, which hadn't been used before, and we became the first entity to use it in the state of Utah, but had to go through the legislative process to get the whole tax increment thing through the legislature. And anyway, so that came together. We got the mall in downtown. And so it was a pretty big deal that that happened. And we got ZCMI, and we had Nordstrom, and we had... At the time it was Weinstock's, I guess, JC Penney, ZCMI were all major tenants in the mall. You 12 of 34 know, it's a pretty significant number of major tenants. It truly was. So, you know, it was a very nice, big deal. But the thing that happened at about the same time: so there had been no regional shopping center in Northern Utah up to that point. And within a couple of years of the downtown mall opening, then Woodbury and Sears built the Newgate Mall, which was out of the downtown area, and then the Layton Hills mall was developed. So you went from from nothing to over 100,000 square feet of this retail stuff, so. You know, that just describes that when the Ogden City Mall was started with a lot of promise, suddenly we're in an environment that was vastly different than when they began developing it and ran into some headwinds. So that sort of contributed to the overall, what happened with the downtown and Ogden City Mall. AK: And you mentioned that the buildings were... did you say tax-funded? Was that correct? SD: There was the tax increment financing, and what what the notion there is, if you have a piece of property, and say the current taxes on the the property is $1,000 because of what the use is, but you come in and make a new development on that piece of property, and suddenly the tax revenue from that piece of property is not $1,000, but it's $10,000. So then that increment between what it was and what it now is, is something that has been created. And so you can use that or use a portion of it to pay for the development, that's what you needed to do, so. So it wasn't taxing current property owners or the community broadly to do the development. The development itself was actually creating the tax base that 13 of 34 helped to develop it. But you had to be cautious because not only did the city, but Weber County had an interest, Ogden City Schools had an interest, you know, there were details in who got what. But the tax increment was a real thing in creating, you know, generated revenue to do the development. AK: That's cool. I was just curious because you said that you guys were the first ones to do that, so. SD: Yeah. AK: Were you guys the ones you came up with the idea for it, then? SD: No, it was something that was started in California. And it was actually fairly new there at the time, too. But like I said, the developer who was interested in doing the mall in Ogden was familiar with the tax-increment financing, and was helpful in our learning about it and in bringing about to Utah. And of course, since then, it's been used all over the state of Utah for all kinds of different development projects. AK: That's super interesting. So, tell me a little bit about the story behind Union Station. How did it come across your notice that the city needed to become involved with preserving the Union Station building? SD: Oh, well, the Ogden Union Railroad Depot Company, which was controlled by the two rivals that met here. Like I said, the passenger service had gone down, the building was severely underutilized, and so the railroad kind of wanted to get rid [laughs], I guess, of the thing. But it was a building of historic significance, you know, so the railroad was not necessarily of the mold to just to tear their building down to get rid of it. So they approached the city to see if we would be interested 14 of 34 in receiving the building as a donation, and at that time we had begun to stir around and do things with 25th Street. You know, we formed a special improvement district, we planted the trees along the street, you know, the sidewalks and stuff like that. And so it became logical, “Yeah, we would very much be interested in receiving the building and doing something with it.” Interesting kind of historical thing about that is the railroad didn't donate the land that the railroad stations sat on, because at the time the Station was originally developed was in the early days, of course, and Brigham Young deeded the property for the Union Station and Railroad and all of that, and he signed the deed as Brigham Young. And so it wasn't clear whether he was signing it, Brigham Young, an individual, or if he was signing it as Brigham Young, president of the church, trustee, and trust of the property. And if it was the latter, then the church could claim whatever interest they might have had in the property, and that wouldn’t have been good. But the argument could be just as easily made that he was signing it as an individual, in which case his heirs would have an interest in the property. So that's one of the kind of probably unknown quirks about the donation of the property to the city. So we were interested in the building and formed the Union Station Board of Directors, and there were a lot of really very community-minded people and people interested in the history of Ogden and with an appreciation of what was going on that came to that board. Teddy Griffiths was the first executive director of the of the board; Tom Moore; Carolyn Rasmussen, now, (she was Carolyn Nebeker at the time), was another person that was very much interested on the board and kind of trying to think 15 of 34 about it. There were certainly others, but those three in particular come to mind as being perhaps a particular driving force behind what happened within the Station. So now you have this building, and what are you going to do with it? And so the first question, or one of the early things was, okay, Browning Arms had a large collection of guns that they had manufactured and kept. And so that the notion became, if we could get that in Union Station, that would be of significant importance to a lot of people historically, and those that are interested in guns and firearms and all of that development. So that became the thing that the board was interested in pursuing. And then Matt Browning and his automobile collection, you know, it was another one, kind of... Well, a little bit different branch of the family than the firearms family, although he was part of that. So anyway, we have the automobile collection and then the gallery upstairs. Part of this community that was interested in Union Station was also interested in the development of the arts and things like that, and so, I think, as I recall, the Myra Powell Gallery was probably the first thing that came on, that... you know, that worked. So we had this board that took it over. Scott Matheson was the attorney for the railroads, and he was the one that we negotiated with. He went on to become elected governor in the state of Utah and served two terms in the governorship as a Democrat [chuckles]. Utah was not as one-way as it was then, but that's a different set of stories, yeah. AK: Just out of curiosity, how did you guys solve the issue with Brigham Young's signature and everything? 16 of 34 SD: Well, as far as that was, like I say, the railroad leased, on a long-term lease, the property. So then the whole issue of ownership just, you know, wasn't an issue. So. AK: So you were paying the railroad for the actual land. SD: Yeah. The building itself was donated, it was just the land that was handled through that lease, so. AK: That's cool that they donated the building. Do you know why they didn't sell it to you? SD: Well, like I say, it had been an important part of the railroad, but by the time they donated to the city, it was much more of a liability than it was an asset for them. And, you know, they had an interest in preserving and built the building, and so the best way to accomplish the goal of perhaps not tearing down the building, but getting rid of an asset would be to donate it to the city, if the city was interested in receiving the donation. AK: Was Scott Matheson one of the people involved in that specifically? The donation of the building? SD: Yes. Yes. Like I say, he was the attorney that handled it for the railroads. AK: That's interesting. So what, what was the state of the Union Station when you guys first got it? Was it pretty rundown? SD: Yes, yes. The Myra Powell Gallery was, if you went up there, it was sort of like a raceway for pigeons [laughs]. There were quite a lot of pigeons there. And what is now the car museum, as I recall, they had a wooden floor. It was a very interesting wooden floor. The wood was stacked end-wide, so it was like a whole 17 of 34 bunch of bricks on the floor, and water had gotten into it and so the wood had swelled. So the floor was just, you know, kind of up and buckling, and so it was, you know, there were parts of it that were in... It needed help, you know. But, structurally, as far as I…I don't know that they've done anything major with it structurally since, you know, that wasn't an issue then. AK: We actually interviewed David Griffiths last week, who was Teddy Griffiths' son, and he was mentioning some of their efforts to preserve the Union Station and stuff. I'm curious, though, did the city develop the Union Station Foundation, or was that a preexisting group? SD: No, it was something that was created when we got the Union Station; as I recall, there probably was a group of people that were interested in wanting to be involved in the development of it. But the Union Station Board was not created until the city had the property. AK: But Teddy Griffiths was hired specifically to handle it? SD: Yeah, you know, kind of manage the Station and figure out what could happen and work with the Board of Directors and, you know, bringing about... Well, first of all, I guess bringing about a vision of what it could be and then implementing that vision. She was marvelous. Just, I mean, to take something that was vacant, unused, ill-used and, you know, create the museums, create activities, get grants... You know, all of the things that she did is just, you know, just terrific. She was just absolutely magnificent at it. And like I say, the board was also really very instrumental in going out and reaching out to people who could make donations, both monetarily and otherwise towards the Station, and were very willing and 18 of 34 anxious to do that. The board was very anxious. And like I say, in my mind, the whole board was just marvelous. But two of the people on the board that really stand out to me are Carolyn Rasmussen and Tom Moore. And they really had a vision and connection that was just superb. AK: That's cool. Were you involved at all in their planning sessions of turning this into a museum and a cultural center? SD: Yes, I was a member of the board in all the time that I was the mayor. So I was on that board, you know, when we did all that. And of course, interfacing with the city. Some of the city folks took on some of the maintenance kind of things that needed to happen here, and so kind of involved that way. AK: Okay. I didn't realize you were part of the board. Why did you guys feel it was important to make the Station into a community center as well as a museum? SD: Well, I think, I mean, that was really interesting. As I recall, more, in my mind, at least, more of the focus was on making Union Station a destination rather than just a community center, you know. So, I mean, that's why the Browning Arms were important, because that was something that was of interest beyond Ogden. I mean, the Browning Collection is kind of a major international thing, to people who do that. Likewise, the car museum. So in 1969 was the centennial of driving the golden spike. Just as an aside for the driving of the golden spike, Stanford University is the one that owned the golden spike, as well as the Silver Spike from Nevada. You know, maybe some other. Anyway, there were a couple of years when I was mayor, they lent the golden spike back to Ogden to show it off. So I had the privilege of, I 19 of 34 flew down, but one of the requirements in transporting the golden spike is it had to be transported on railroad. So I got to ride the railroad from San Francisco back with the golden spike in custody. So that was kind of a fun, interesting part of the whole development, and we had it on display here at the Station and took it around Ogden High and other places. Like this was kind of a fun thing, so. But anyway, so, you know, talking about using the Station as the destination and the driving of the golden spike, that's how I got off on that. Nate Mazer had been hired to be the executive director of the Centennial Celebration of the driving of the golden spike. Nate Mazer was a retired colonel from the Air Force. Interesting, energetic, funny, great guy. Anyway, he was interested in the railroad, and he had copywritten the National Railway Hall of Fame and Museum, and his vision was to turn this property then into that, the National Railway Hall of Fame and Museum, which would have been very interesting. I don't know exactly why, but that never did eventuate. I think the board, like you're saying, kind of had other visions and kind of focused on other stuff, and so that didn't happen. So anyway, that was one of those both things that in my mind had that happened, there was a possibility that, you know, this might be entirely different than what it is today, where it's, you know, kind of trying to cast around and, again, find a purpose. The Union Station: if I had unlimited money and was king of the world, what I would do with it is, I would would buy rolling stock and recreate the historic line from Corinne out to Promontory Summit, and would have trains running on a regular basis out to the Promontory back – steam trains, you know, running out 20 of 34 with with passengers out to the to the Promontory Point. And, you know, they've got some interesting rolling stock here. I would restore those. In 1976, there was the Freedom Trains, what they call the train that traveled the country, which had exhibits for the bicentennial of the United States. You know, a lot of different things. The engine was a steam engine, but they had had some troubles with the engine and so they brought it out to the Defense Department to fix whatever the problem was with the engine. And so the Freedom train was coming from the north, and I believe there was some group of the community that went up to... It might have just been Brigham City. Anyway, up that way, got on the train and were going to ride the train into Ogden. And so we were riding the train in Ogden. It was a cold winter morning kind of thing, and the steam engine was coming out of the fog. And you've just never seen a more magnificent sight than that. It's spewing steam in a grand halo as it came chugging out of the thing and so, you know, the rumble, you know, it's just... So if I was creating a vision for Union Station, I would get more back to actual railroad kind of stuff. I would restore steam engines, I would have them running and, you know, there's been a few times that they've had steam engines come into Ogden and to stand by and hear the roar of the fire, and, you know, in my mind, that's the thing we're seeing. AK: It sounds like during your time as mayor, you became quite a railroad history enthusiast, or at least grew to love it even more. SD: Yeah, yeah, very definitely. And like I say, as a young child, I rode on the railroad and that sort of thing is a memory that sticks. It was really quite something. When 21 of 34 I was in college, a group of my friends and I, we went down to San Francisco on the train. And you know, what a neat... And like I said, our honeymoon, we did on the train. You leave Ogden at night and travel across Nevada and wake up in the morning. And there you are in the Sierra Nevada mountains, having breakfast in the dorm car. I mean, gosh, you know, what a great trip. AK: Have you always been interested in railroad history then? Or at least had a fondness for trains? SD: Well, I don't know that. Like, it's been a major part of my life, but it's something that, you know, was there, and I've enjoyed. I mean, I don't know that I can really say I'm an enthusiast, but just somebody who values and is interested. AK: I'm curious to hear more about the centennial celebration of the Golden Spike. It sounds like you guys were able to bring the golden spike here. What else did the Union Station do to celebrate? SD: Well, of course, the major celebration was out at Promontory. You know, the day they did the reenactment out there. But we did have the Station here, and there were some dinners and those kind of things that went on here, with the senators and whatever. But it was, of course, that was in '69. That was before my involvement. But like I said, the major celebration was out at Promontory and, you know, setting the groundwork for that. Eventually they built recreations of the Jupiter and the 119, which were the engines that touched noses at Promontory when they completed the railroad. AK: So did the railroad museum here achieve its State Railroad Museum status during your time as well? 22 of 34 SD: No, I think that was something that happened subsequently to my involvement. AK: And were you able to stay involved with the Union Station after your time as mayor ended? SD: No, I, you know, there were numerous other things like that, but... So, you know, other than talking to folks on the board and being as far as any active participation, no, I didn't have any. AK: Do you have any other stories of your time on the board that would be important to document? SD: Well, one of the interesting things was the murals on either end of the building. That was a big deal. The National Endowment for the Arts had this grant, and I think it was specifically for Edward Laning, and he was one of the nation's great muralists and... Apparently the post office in Brooklyn, New York, and there's a bunch of his murals there, you know, that he painted. So he was very well-known. And so it involved a lot of folks. We were able to have the National Endowment for the Arts have Laning paint the murals that are now here on either end of the lobby there. And I got to go back to New York once, to his studio there where he was painting them. And there's actually three panels in each of the murals, and they kind of overlap, I mean. Where the edges were, if you look, there's one area there on one of them that there's some trees that go from top to bottom. Anyway, that's kind of where the seam is, between the panels of the murals. And anyway, so when they were putting them up, they, of course, cut part of the overlap off. So there was a piece of that canvas that was lying there, and I picked it up and I had Laning autograph 23 of 34 it, and then I've got that framed at home. So the part of that tree that I have hanging in my house. And then the other thing is Lloyd Lozes Goff was his assistant in painting those pictures, and he was also quite well-known. There's a picture of balloons taking off over Albuquerque that's kind of pretty well-known that they've got posters of. Anyway, Lloyd Lozes Goff was the one that painted that picture. And he was kind enough, good enough, he painted my portrait. So I have that. And it was up in the boardroom, and then when I left office, they gave it to me. And so now that's hanging in my home's hall. It's really kind of... AK: That's really cool! Sorry, I'm trying to be quiet here because of the recording, but that's amazing! That is such a cool story. So were you a part of the process of choosing Edward Laning specifically? I'm just curious if there was, like, a significance between he and the Station. SD: No, the grant was specifically for him to paint murals, and then we were selected. This site was selected to get to have him paint murals for this, for this particular thing here. And Tom Moore – I understand that you're going to be speaking with him – he'll know more about that because he was really quite involved. AK: Okay, I'll ask him about that. So are you saying that they approached you and said, "Hey, we'd love to have this mural up in Union Station?" Or... I was curious whose idea it was and how that came to be? SD: Well, I think it was that, like I say, somebody knew that that opportunity was out there with this money, with that attached to the specific artist, and went out and got that, you know, and brought it to Union Station. So the National Endowment 24 of 34 for Humanities had created it, and then they, I guess they were looking for a place to put murals, you know, painted by him. AK: Any other stories that we haven't covered yet or anything that you think would be important to record? SD: Really not. You know, I think that that pretty much... Just an interesting thing: Bernard DeVoto, and he's not all that well-known. He's an author and a critic and he was born in in Ogden, but he went to New York, and that's where he, I think, he wrote poetry and essays and was a critique of some sort or another, you know, pretty well-known fellow. Anyway, he was asked one time about Ogden and about the place he came from, and he says that he left from Union Station in Ogden, which was 'the ugliest building ever conceived by man'. Obviously, he wasn't that good of a critic [chuckling]. AK: Was it this building? SD: This building, yes. This very. He didn't know what he was talking about, as far as that goes, but. AK: That's really funny. That is interesting. And yet, you know, it still is so important to the community. SD: Yeah, it is. It is still important, you know? And like I say, reading the articles in the paper, you know what they're questioning about doing with the Union Station in the future. I guess if I could put my imprint on it, I would not have anybody do anything on the side if they were requesting from the city any kind of support. In my mind, it's got to be important enough to them that they would, because it is a limited and valuable resource. And so it ought not to be, in my mind, you know, 25 of 34 some developer coming in and saying, "I want to build a 100-unit apartment building, and in order for me to do that, I'm going to need you to put in the sewer, in the gutter." And, you know, whatever I would, that kind of development, I'd say, "No, thank you very much. You know, if you want to, if it's important enough to you, if it's economically viable enough to you to put your money in and not require us to finance it, then we'll consider it seriously, but as a threshold item." And the other thing about the development, the plan and... you know, I don't know how realistic it really would be, but if they could think about, "Okay, what could we make Union Station that would really be of national importance?" You know, and of course, the story of the railroad, there's a whole lot of romance and interest and things like that. So if that could become a part of what they tell here, like I say, I think it would be important if if they – rather than just have a bunch of very large paperweights sitting on the south end of the building, if they could become actual rolling stock that you could turn on in here and and experience the sound, I think that would be something that would really attract a lot of people. You know, Union Station and 25th Street have really done well. They really, really have. I mean, when you drive by most any evening and there's people about on 25th Street of a Saturday in the summertime, to see all the folks that come down on a regular basis, you know, 25th Street and Union Station, for its part is really... has been a success. You know, those two together, what's been accomplished with the community. Folks that have carried this whole thing forward have just been tremendous, just absolutely magnificent. 26 of 34 I think I can recall one time when I was first elected mayor, I guess it was about the time that we were considering accepting the Station, and I drove down 25th Street just to kind of kind of look, and there was a lady of evening standing out at the curb, and she was beckoning because I drove past, you know, and empty and boarded-up buildings. You know, there's that image, and then there's the image of it today. And isn't it terrific? I mean, isn't it just... AK: Quick turnaround. SD: Yeah. Yeah, it truly is. Because there was really a significant part of the community that thought you ought to bulldoze all of 25th Street down. AK: And was that something that you got a lot of people telling you as mayor? Like, just bulldoze it down? SD: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, because from that point of view, 25th Street was a bad part of our history. And if you could obliterate it, then you would have improved the history of Ogden. I don't know that that would have happened, but we'd have lost something. AK: And that's interesting because I feel like now, I mean, Ogden City's motto is, "Still untamed." It's something that people celebrate as interesting, right? What was the image that people wanted to project of Ogden City back then, and why? SD: I think maybe what some of the community would have liked to project is something on the order of Salt Lake, just a little bit north. You know, that kind of thing, rather than, Ogden: the center of railroading. AK: And did you have a lot of people who were trying to tell you to just, like, bulldoze the Station as well? 27 of 34 SD: Oh, yeah. They would have gotten rid of the whole thing. You know, it was one of the things that happened during that time is, you know, industrial development was important in addition to the commerce development. So a short while before I was elected mayor of Ogden, the Weber County Industrial Development Corporation was formed, which had a bunch of community leaders, and they developed the Weber Industrial Park up north. And the notion there was that they wanted to bring in heavy manufacturing industry into the Weber Industrial Park and they did that. You know, they formed the park and now you've got... Uh oh. I can't think of the name now, but they make airplane parts, you know, very big manufacturer out there. And then also, while I was mayor, the Ogden Industrial Park, that whole scheme was put together and developed. So there was a whole bunch of people that were interested in developing Ogden in terms of commerce and industry that had some success and a deal of success in doing that. AK: Why was it important to you to preserve Ogden's history as mayor? SD: Because it was interesting, you know? And it was part of Ogden. And that's who we were. That's really not who we are right now; We've kind of changed this community. But this was certainly part of the background. And, you know, it relates back to the Wild West and all kinds of stuff that was interesting about Western America and the United States. And the notion that we were the compromise between the Gentiles and the Mormons, you know, and that's the other element of Ogden I don't think everybody really appreciates, is the impact through some of these individuals that Ogden had nationally. Robert Hinkley got Hinkley Dodge, which we don't have anymore, but it was the Dodge dealership in 28 of 34 downtown Ogden, was the first Dodge dealership. Anyway, the importance of that: he went on, he was the chairman of the FAA during Franklin Roosevelt's administration. So, you know, we had a couple of pretty high-powered folks that had a good deal of impact on the country, from little Ogden, you know. So it's always been a kind of a diverse and interesting community. AK: So it was the first Dodge dealership ever, or just in Utah? SD: I think ever was here. And JCPenney store number one was in Kemmerer, Wyoming. That was where John Cash was from. Store number two was Ogden, so we were the second store in that. AK: Where was that store located? SD: It was on Washington Boulevard. I think it was between 23rd and 24th, and then ZCMI had a building on the corner of 24th and Washington Boulevard that they moved out of, and JCPenney took over that building. When the mall was developed, they tore down that building on 24th and Washington, and up on the top, because it had originally been a ZCMI building, as part of the architecture development, they had these beehives made out of... well, not tin, whatever, you know, whatever it was. So in tearing down the building, there were a couple of them lying around. And I was mayor at the time, so I asked the contractor if I could have have one or two of them, and he said, "Sure, go ahead. We're just going to junk 'em." So I, in my front front yard by my porch, I've got two of those beehives, you know, sitting there. It's part of the landscape, so. 29 of 34 AK: That is really cool. So we've talked a little bit about how the Union Station greatly impacted the community as a train station. Do you feel like it continues to have an impact today as a museum and as a community center? SD: Um... You know, I don't know. Because I observe what's happening on 25th Street, you know, kind of from a distance. I'm not really actively involved in that sort of thing. And as far as the Union Station itself, my impression is that over time, perhaps through different administrations in the city, perhaps Union Station hasn't been viewed as an asset and a good thing to have. It's become more of a, "Oh my gosh, we've got to put another half a million dollars into this thing." You know? So I have the impression based upon kind of what I read in the papers, not necessarily anything in particular, but my own conclusions that the city, over time, has kind of viewed it not as an asset, but again, a liability. And that's what needs to change, you know, because it is an asset. It is something that is important that you look at what has been done since the mid 1970s, today with 25th Street and Union Station. I mean, it's a world of difference. And I'm convinced that with imagination and creativity and investment, the Union can stay, Union Station in the next period of time, can live up to that promise to be not just important to this community, but be important to the country. You know, let's imagine big. Because people of Ogden, over time, have imagined big. They really have. I mean, imagine that somebody from Ogden was one of the driving forces behind the building Hoover Dam. I mean, that's just something, you know, imagine somebody from Ogden was chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank 30 of 34 when it was such a name. You know, it changed. It became important in the development of the nation. And that was an Ogden kid that grew up and did that. Or somebody with a connection to Ogden was one that really, you know, created the modern FAA, you know, and so many other folks over time that have made significant contributions. Companies that were started here: JCPenney, we’re important in their development. Conoco Oil, we’re important in their development. And we've attracted folks. I mean, you think of the Autoliv Plant, you know, and that's something that's changed over time. It was originally built by Thiokol for part of their manufacturing of rockets, the Minuteman rockets and rockets that went to the moon. And we were a piece of that. And Williams International out by the airport, they came here from Walled Lake, Wisconsin and built a facility here. And you look at that, so. There was nothing in all of those places that kind of was nothing, and then with imagination and effort and creativity, look what happened. Made some great stuff. So I think Union Station, at this particular point in time, it's not living up to its potential, but with management and creativity and realizing that it's an important asset so that we, as you look at this 19 acres, I think it is, and in their master plan, you know... think of it as pure gold, you know, and not, "Let's put up something there so it's not rare raw ground." I've got nothing against apartment buildings, but I don't think we need them here on this particular site, you know. Whatever we do should complement and add on to the history. 31 of 34 AK: During your time as mayor, what did you feel like the Station's impact on the community was at that time – 1970s, 1980s? SD: Well, it was beginning to be recognized again. It was beginning to be used. People started to... Oktoberfest, you know, all of a sudden there's this thing here at Union Station every year that was Oktoberfest. And again, that was one of the things that brought lots of folks down here, and interacting, and, you know, people held weddings and receptions and dinners and, you know, the Chamber of Commerce held some of their annual banquets here at Union Station. So, I mean, it's just a really interesting thing of all that, you know. You have, for example, the Egyptian Theater, and what's connected with that, the convention facility that was developed around the Egyptian Theater, and that's just terrific. But maybe at some point, that whole convention facility could have been here. Well, I'm glad that that's there. But again, that was a building that not everybody loved, as great as it is, you know. And so Union Station is what's in a period of transition, and we can control that transition. I mean, those that are involved now can do great things with it. AK: That goes with the other question I have, which is: what can we do to keep Union Station relevant for future generations? SD: What can you do? AK: Yeah. What can the community do? SD: Well, I... [Chuckles]. Use it more. You know, like I say, there was a time where there would be banquets here at Union Station and things like that. I think you 32 of 34 could bring some of that stuff back down to the Union Station, you know. Festivals, you know. AK: In the exhibit that we're going to have, the text talks about how Union Station's future was Ogden's future, referring to its time as a train station, as well as its time as a community center. Do you feel that that's true? And if so, why? SD: Well, yeah, I think you could make that point, but again, it's, ‘what is that vision?’ And so the wise folks that sit around, and look at that vision, I think I would focus them on, what could be done to make this place and our place in history important nationally? You know, whether it is a tourist destination, or because we have interesting things to see, or we were an interesting part of history and we have made, can make, will make big contributions, to the development of the country. And that sounds grandiose, doesn't it really? But again, you look at what has come from here and, you know, it's not like it's a big recognized thing as a whole. Ogden, Utah is a commerce and creative center. But in fact, we had an important part to play in the development of that, and so we have an important part to play in the future. And Union Station can be a basis for moving forward with that kind of stuff. AK: Well, thank you. Is there anything else that you would like to say or talk about before we turn off the camera? SD: No, I just appreciate the opportunity, and I hope I haven't nattered on too much. AK: No, no, no. It's perfect. Thank you. There were so many interesting things, and part of me wishes that this interview wasn't just about the Union Station, because 33 of 34 I would be so curious to hear more of your stories in office, because it's such an interesting time to be mayor, so. SD: Yeah. It was. It was. AK: Yeah. Especially with, I mean, it sounds like there was a lot of urban decay and stuff going on with Ogden at the time. SD: Yeah. There were a lot of transitions and possibilities and, you know, the community can really be proud of... And of course, there's ups and downs, successes and failures now. For example, the Business Depot Ogden was Defense Depot Ogden, and when I was married and employed, probably around 10,000 or 12,000 people were employed up there. And they supplied military worldwide with goods and services, so it was very important to the community. It was important to the military. And one of the things that was important at that time was preserving the Defense Depot Ogden here in Ogden, you know, and there were some of the defensive players that wanted to close it down and move the mission to other places. And, you know, a couple times, it seems like, we did a delegation and went back and testified before Congress about the importance and the contribution of the Defense Depot Ogden, and that was an important thing. What will happen? You know, time passes. Those people that saw that it was more efficient for the military to move the mission from Defense Depot Ogden elsewhere. And they did, you know, in a significant, perhaps, economic blow. But from that, we have now Business Depot Ogden, which employs more people in more diverse work than what was there. 34 of 34 And so at the time, you know, what my vision was – to preserve the Defense Depot Ogden – wasn't realized and probably shouldn't have been, because now what has developed is better than what it was. So it's kind of that way with Union Station and this whole development, you know. Perhaps this housing development is actually, as I envisioned it, it's not where it can be, but I'm confident that it can go somewhere great. Just think big enough. AK: Hindsight is always 20/20. But I like that: “If you think big enough, you can go places.” Well, thank you very much, again. I really appreciate it. SD: Okay. Thank you. 35 of 34