Oral History Program Dr. Clyde Winslow Fields Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Dr. Clyde Winslow Fields Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master’s Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Fields, Dr. Clyde Winslow, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Clyde Winslow Fields. Dr. Winslow discusses the difficulties of setting up a dental practice during the Depression, including working in the Eccles (First Security Bank) building, caring for some of the Eccles family, and the closure of the Ogden State Bank. He recalls dealing with bootleggers and sexual harassment, and professional jealousy within the medical, dental, and law professions. He also talks about vice on 25th Street including prostitution. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: What were you doing during the Depression years? Were you a dentist then? CF: I started in August 1929. I opened my office on the 14th of August, and the crash hit in October. I was here in Ogden in the First Security Bank building. I hadn’t got started, and I had a wife and twin babies. We’d come from Portland, where I had been going to school. When we got here, we knew that she was going to have twins and were completely financially broke. We had no money, and we had borrowed money from my sister to open an office and take the state board, for that matter. I took the state board at that time, then I had three days at the Capitol Building and one day at the University of Utah and at the penitentiary, where I worked. That was in Sugar House at that time. I have often said that every young man ought to have the opportunity of being in the penitentiary for one day to teach him a lesson to stay out of trouble because it was one of the hardest tests I ever went through in my life. The strain I went through because I had a wife and twin babies that were born in July. Even though in that summer it was a boom time, I started in the middle of August and had all expenses and no income. I think that I collected 2 $550 gross between August and January. But of course my expenses were much more. It looked pretty good starting out in Ogden and then, of course, the crash came, and they kept saying, “It won’t last, it won’t last.” But it went on and on and on. I didn’t get any start before the crash came. I was in the First Security Bank building, and I was there eleven months. Then I moved over in the Eccles Building and joined offices with my father-in-law, Dr. Dwight Hardy, and we were... But I was in debt, and it was really a struggle because money was very hard to get after the crash came, and people were having a heck of a time trying to get any money. Of course they couldn’t pay us at all, and it was a struggle for me. I had to keep going down to the bank renewing the notes that I had there because they were having a hard time, and the bank made me renew my notes every three months instead of every six months, as we started out. Of course people themselves were having a hard time. They finally came out with script. I think that was partially paid for by the federal government, and they’d buy vegetables with the script. Well, it was supposed to be really illegal to spend the script for dental or medical work, but then they needed help and they couldn’t get it through the script, as they called it. So we traded them dental work for the script, and we would go buy vegetables with the script. This was common among the dentists and the physicians and all. Of course if got to be kind of a struggle for survival, and lots of things were done that maybe shouldn’t have been done. Maybe I shouldn’t mention this, though, but the county physicians were taking pay. They were being paid by the county, and they were also being paid by the patients. They found it out and caused a lot 3 of ruckus in the medical society, and almost split the society wide open because they were all having a hard time. When they tried to do it this way, it caused a lot of feelings. Of course the county commissioners felt bad because it was a bad mark on their record; and Mr. Stratford, who was a senior member of the county commission, asked my father-in-law if we couldn’t squelch this thing in the medical society so that it wouldn’t get out to the public too much because it looked so bad for him politically. MT: What kind of care did people take of their teeth during the Depression years? CF: Well, that was one of the hardest things that we had to put up with because there weren’t very many that felt they were very essential. In fact, they let them go until they ached, and oft times there was a loss of teeth that ordinarily would not have been if they had the sense to get at them. But they didn’t have the money, and we didn’t have the money, and it was a very difficult situation. Of course some things were very bad situations because of the lack of care. It was the days of Prohibition, too, and this added another facet that most people don’t stop to realize because we had a number of people who were doing bootlegging work who were out to get money. It later had a reflection that was very bad. Now among both the medical and dental and legal professions, if we found he was a bootlegger, we would charge him a more excessive price. We had two or three reasons for that. In the first place, we figured he made his money illegally. The second reason was that we never knew if we were going to have him the next day or not because he might be in jail. And the third reason was that they had the money when nobody else did. And this was a common 4 practice when we realized they were bootleggers and were in the business. Those were the ones we tried to make our money on because lots of times we had a hard time making it on the others. They did neglect their work – bridge work, anything that way, just the bare essentials. Sometimes not even that. Back in the phase of bootlegging, just to give you an example of what would happen, I had a man come into my office who was on what was known as the WPA at that time. He brought his wife in with a terrible toothache, and I didn’t know them. They were strangers to me, but they had been referred to me. She was about seventh months pregnant, and she had a terrific toothache and they wanted something done. He was sort of a gruff fellow and said, “I can’t afford to pay you, but,” he said, “you can take the tooth out, and you don’t have to deaden it. I know that’s a cost to you and you’ve got to pay it, but,” he said, “I can’t afford to pay you, and I don’t know when I can. She’s got to go to the hospital and have a baby.” I couldn’t take the woman’s tooth out without deadening it, so I deadened it. I said, “Well, if you get to where you can pay me, let me know.” Because I was having a hard time buying milk for my twin babies. I couldn’t tell hardly which tooth it was because they were all so bad, and I didn’t know which tooth was aching. I couldn’t afford to go very far myself, so I took the tooth out that she said was aching, and looking at the rest of those, I thought that she would soon be back for more. I didn’t know, and within another month, she was back again with another toothache and the same story: “Oh, I can’t afford to pay you.” I couldn’t see the woman suffer that way, so I went ahead and took it out. The next month 5 he came in, and he had a toothache. She was in the hospital. He couldn’t stand a toothache, so he had gone down and bought him a fifth of whiskey from the bootleggers. Well, that made me furious. He could buy the whiskey, but he couldn’t pay for his wife’s teeth to be pulled. So I made him pay then. I made him pay it all, and I told him I wouldn’t do his teeth unless he did. But these were the sad parts of it because she was a good woman, and he was just a weakling. We saw a lot of this in the Depression because people would often fake some of their injuries in order to get care, both medical and dental. Those were the people that I might say were more of a dishonest type that made it hard for us because if we tried to be honest, we never knew, as in a case like this one, it made it very difficult to get it. We used to do all kinds of things. We used to trade dental care for services, for groceries, and things this way. This was often very unsatisfactory because either on the dentist’s side or on the patient’s side, oft times one or the other would take advantage of the other. It did its service all right. It had a service, but it still was not satisfactory because one felt the other was taking advantage of them, and in some cases it may have been the dentist taking advantage of the patient. I know one dentist whose patient had apples to sell and couldn’t sell them. He made him give him an exorbitant number of apples just to have his tooth pulled. The patient felt that it was very unfair, but they were desperate and needed help. Now, as far as the patient was concerned, they would take advantage of the dentist, declare hardship when they didn’t have it. I had a case where welfare was supposed to be being done, and they were 6 dividing up some of these cases that were so bad, and some of the service clubs were having some done, and they wanted to know if the dentists would help out, and we did – we wanted to help out. But one day, one patient had so much work that they divided up among several of the dentists. I got part and Dr. Clark got the other part. Dr. Clark was a Mason, and belonged to the Masonic Lodge. One day he called me up and he said, “Hey, sucker, what are you doing?” He said, “This patient that we’re doing work for, you and I, has no reason to be on charity.” He said, “I found that out through the Masonic Lodge. His father is a railroad engineer, and they would be able to pay.” He said, “They’ve gone on charity, and they’re not supposed to be.” Well, I said this was not fair to us because we were having a hard time, too. So we had all these kinds of problems to put up with because people were taking advantage. It got progressively worse as time went on because they figured, “Everybody else is getting it done, why shouldn’t I?” So it was really not a satisfactory thing of trading services for dental. It was far more satisfactory where the cash was handled. Even though we may trade with the individual, grocers would come to us and want work done, and we would do it in trade for groceries. Well, sometimes I found that in some of the cases, not all, there were exceptions, but when the groceries were delivered, they were mediocre, poor fresh vegetables, fresh groceries, and they’d come that way to the home. I’d ask my wife to call them up and trade the bill off, and they’d bring that stuff that was really unsatisfactory, not fit to use sometimes. This was a common thing. Of course, it made the dentist want to slough his work. Yet we were held 7 by a law if we did slough it that would come at us in a lawsuit. This was a tough proposition. However, there were those who were perfectly straight and honest in all their dealings. But we were still always suspicious, and they were too. I know that I had patients come in. One patient came in and wanted to trade that way, and I did some work for him the first sitting. He said, “When are you going o finish the job?” I said, “You are finished.” He said, “But when are you going to put the permanent fillings in?” I said, “They are in.” He said, “But they can’t be.” He said, “The dentist I’ve been going to would just cut them open a little bit and put in a temporary filling, and have me come back, and keep charging me each time.” I said, “I can’t do that.” Well, the dentist was protecting himself from the same proposition – the lack of honesty and fairness in trade. This was a continual problem with us. Now, in my own cases, I went up and picked peaches in payment for dental work I did. He let me have the peaches, but he charged me twice what I could pay for the peaches elsewhere. And I didn’t know the price of peaches at the time, and my father-in-law found it out. It was one of his patients, and he sent me there to do that, to trade it. He was pretty angry about it, and called the man and called him down about it. People who were working for the WPA would do the same thing. I know they brought a man into me for a physical examination. He was supposed to have hurt his back while working for the WPA. The doctors couldn’t find anything specific that was causing the pain in his back, and he was continually complaining. They had to pay him his wages. He was supposed to have been on the road grader when he was injured, and they had to pay him his 8 wages. I’d tried to examine him for his teeth, and the WPA was giving him the money, and he was supposed to pay his bills with the WPA check. But they gave him double money for the medical condition. I did get some money, but they asked us to keep the price down because they couldn’t afford to carry too much. I walked out of the office one day and saw a man walking in front of me. I thought he looked familiar and, all of a sudden, I realized that it was this patient who was supposed to be injured and couldn’t walk. But he was walking as normal as anyone I ever saw. I followed him for about two blocks. Then he turned around and saw me and recognized me, and started in with the best limp you ever saw. He went limping from then on. So these were the common things that we had to put up with, and yet we were having a struggle making our payments and paying our rent. Our rent was not held down, and so we had a meeting with the owners of the building and told them that we just couldn’t afford to keep going on this way, and they couldn’t afford to lower the rent. They were running the building in debt, and now they had a heavy debt to pay off, and they couldn’t afford to cut the rent. So then the Eccles, the owners, said they would try to divide their medical and dental work up amongst the tenants of the building. Well, that created problems because Royal Eccles was one of the tenants, and he had been going to Dr. Tribe for his dental work. He was a good dentist, but then suddenly he brought part of his family to me and part of them to Lee Tribe. To try to be fair to Lee Tribe, I went in to him, and I said, “How do you charge because some of the family is coming to me?” Well, then Lee got mad, 9 and there was professional jealousy, which crept in because of these conditions. I know this was typical among dental, medical, and legal people because I saw it. A lot of them would not admit it but finally I said to Lee, “Now look, I’m trying to be fair with you and not undercut you. I just don’t know how to handle this situation with him because he’s hard to handle.” And Lee said, “Well, he can afford to make a trip around the world, so he can afford to pay his dental bills. You have to charge him not by the job, but by the hour because he’ll take more hours of your time than any of your other patients.” I said, “Well, that’s all I wanted to know.” This was a problem. Now, in due time, Royal left me and went to another dentist in the building. He didn’t come to me and ask how to handle him, and in due time he was complaining because he couldn’t make any money on him because he took too much of his time. So I said, “Well, I went and asked Lee. He came from Lee to me, and Lee told me what was happening.” I said, “You come to me and you could have found out, too.” He said, “Yes, but I didn’t want you to know that I had him.” This was professional jealousy, you see. Patients were needed, wanted, and where there was any possibility of getting money, naturally you struggled to get it. Well, it’s human nature. You just have to recognize that it’s human nature. Some dentists would even make passes at the elevator girls to send them patients. People would come in and want a dentist, and they would want the elevator girl to send them to him, and they would give the elevator girls service and not charge them, or do it for a very cut rate. So then we had to go to the building manager, and the elevator girls had to receive strict instructions that they 10 would refer nobody to no one anywhere. Another thing that often happened, the patients wanted their work, especially young ladies, especially with young dentists, made some passes, and it made it very difficult. We had some moral problems came from that. This also happened in the medical and legal offices, and this I know because I know some of the girls that were involved, and I know the dentists that were involved. I know what happened to them, and how things went along. Sometimes it created a condition that was not very satisfactory. For instance, I had a girl come into me and wanted a tooth extracted, and I had reason to believe that she was from a bootlegging family. So I ordinarily charged $2 for an extraction, I believe, and my father-in-law came in, and I thought he recognized her from the bootlegging family. When he walked out, he put up his hand – $4 like that – so I charged $4. Well, she said that she didn’t have the money with her, so there was nothing I could do but put it on the books. About two weeks later, she came in paid me 50 cents. Well, we were glad to have the 50 cents. Well, about two weeks later, she came in with another 50 cents. She said, “I could pay you all at once, but I kind of like you. It’s too bad we only have dental appointments, isn’t it?” So they were constantly... Now other girls did the same thing. I was a young dentist, new because I started out in August of 1929, and this was common amongst many of them. They were willing practically to sell themselves for dental services, and in some cases successfully so. But of course others of us had a little different standards. We didn’t go for it, but this was a frequent problem. MT: What do you remember about the Ogden State Bank? 11 CF: Well, I remember quite a bit about the Ogden State Bank because they had certain involvements with me in an indirect way. It was a bank which everyone liked, and the friendship and the friendliness in there was very good. But then suddenly it crashed. It was a severe blow because many people had what little they had in there. This was true of both farmers and professional men, and it really hit them hard. The laws were not strict like they are now, and the legal professions went in there and helped straighten it out, and they really took advantage. They took a lot of money, and the depositors got it in the ear, and they didn’t have a strict law as to what could be taken and what couldn’t be taken. So the lawyers that were in there, it was common knowledge that they really took a great advantage of the people. It caused a lot of feelings. There was a lot said among the other professions about those lawyers really taking advantage of it and hurting the people alike. Now one of the Barkers was a cashier, and a lot of his friends had money in there. They were kind of teed off because he didn’t inform them that the bank was going to close so they could get their money out. But he really didn’t know himself, and the result was that he cracked up, and they had to take him to Provo for treatment for a while. It was said there was insanity in the family, but there was not. It was just the stress and strain on him from his friends accusing him that he didn’t inform them that the bank was going to close. MT: Now, was that located on 24th Street? CF: Right where the Ben Lomond Hotel is now, that building right on the corner there. It was really a hard blow because sheep were running wild up here, and the bank 12 had money on them. The law was trying to foreclose on them, and the sheep owners couldn’t pay it. So they had to send men out to try and take care of them, and some of them just running rampant because there was nobody to take care of the sheep. It finally began to resolve itself, but people lost heavily and it caused a lot of feelings. Of course it caused repercussions in my wife’s family because this Barker that had the breakdown had a brother that was going with my wife’s cousin, and this caused fear. They said that she couldn’t marry him because of the insanity in the family. I believe that there wasn’t because I knew the boy that she was going with. They said it was insanity, and they broke her relationship with him. Of course I lost my wife, Beth, and they didn’t like the new fellow she was going with, so they tried to get me to go with her. When I first came here, I was like everyone else, and I liked to go hunting, and I couldn’t afford to go. I had to stay here for every dime I could get. But during the second year, I went up with this cousin’s father into Cache Valley to hunt, and so it was really hard to leave the office. So I was only able to spend one day up there. At that time, there was no minimum wage paid girls. I had girls come in my office and work for me – the first one came in and offered to work just for the experience so that she could get a job. They didn’t ask any pay, and finally because of the stress and, I think, moral conditions was such that they took advantage of it. We found out that problems occurred more in the business than in the medical and dental profession. They took advantage of some of these girls because they needed help, and they needed work, and they had to almost sell themselves in order to get a job. It was not so prevalent here as it 13 was in some other areas. We got the reports all right, but there was some here. There were too many here with a higher moral standard, but we still had plenty that were not. Now, I had some here that I would get the money from, and I said to one of them, “How come you can afford to buy gas stations for your boys and give them jobs?” I had an idea that he was connected with the bootlegging, but when I started asking him questions he frankly told me where he got it. I realized that bootlegging was just a side issue. There was more money in the prostitution, and this was where he got a lot of money, and he frankly told me so. MT: What’s your opinion of the repeal of the 18th Amendment? Was it a good move, or what do you feel about that? CF: I would say it was a good move under the conditions because it was being violated so much. If it had been enforced, I could see it. But it was not being enforced, and it was causing so much law violation and so much trouble, they were making money at it. But as far as paying taxes, they were not, and it was causing such a moral burden. I personally would be for the Prohibition, but the way it was handled, and the way it was turning out, the administration of it was a failure. MT: What was your opinion of Hoover and Roosevelt at that time? CF: Well, Hoover was a strait-laced Quaker, and my feeling was that he was handicapped because he didn’t have the freedom to operate that was later given to Roosevelt. When the crash came, you could see that he tried to get the Federal Reserve Bank to give more credits to get business back on its feet. When he lost the election because of it, they blamed him for it. I don’t think he 14 was any more to blame than anyone else. And he tried to get Roosevelt to send someone else to the White House – they didn’t want to close the banks. He didn’t want to, and he could see what was going to happen. He asked Roosevelt to send a representative to help him, and see if they couldn’t get the Federal Reserve to cooperate. Roosevelt refused to cooperate. So by the time Roosevelt got in, things had deteriorated so bad that he had to close the banks. I personally think that it would never have had to be done if he had sent someone there in the first place to carry it on. But Hoover was a strict disciplinarian, and he wanted to carry it on to live the law. He wanted to do what was right. Roosevelt got in and immediately they gave him a blank check, and the whole phase of it changed. The Republicans were swept out, and the Democrats went in. Of course they’d been out for quite a while and they were glad to promise the people anything. The people were so desperate that they grabbed on to any promises that came up. He was a shrewd and clever politician, and he tried to soothe the people with the fireside chats. But basically, I think if he had gone in there as he had been asked by Hoover, he could have stopped the closing of the banks and forestalled a lot of the problems that came later – of killing little pigs and trying to curtail production because there was a limited market. But he had done this. The Federal Reserve Bank tried later, but it had gone so far by that time that it really caused still further deterioration until the war started in Europe, which started the upturn in business on war basis, not on an internal reconstruction. They were having too 15 many problems with pouring money in too many directions, and people were taking advantage of it. MT: The war, then, was actually the thing which ended the Depression? CF: It was, definitely. When the war came, then we started selling. When it began in Europe, a trend because they were buying, and then we got more and more and more on to a war basis. Of course, we became more involved in it ourselves. It became a war of prosperity. It was not prosperity itself. This was very evident to me and many others. We had expected and expected because the government had been priming the pump. But it didn’t prime. Then the war came along, and from then on things started picking up. Of course then they started putting boys into the service and heretofore fellows trying to get into the dental profession were trying to get into the service because they were guaranteed an income according to their commission. They had their medical services taken care of – their dental services, hospital services, all that. A lot of the fellows in Ogden were trying to get in there. They joined the reserves trying to get into regular full-time employment in the service. There their business was assured, and their pay was assured. But as these fellows went into the service, that was when our business began to pick up. More industry was picking up because of it, and they started these installations out here. Then, of course, it started to rush. But I got out of the reserves because after my wife died, I’d been two years in succession, and I went down to Fort Douglas and spent two weeks as a dentist. I was glad to do it. The pay was good, and it wasn’t the hard work of 16 private practice. But I went two years in succession, and that gave me promotion to a major. But as we got up to where we had a higher rank and higher pay, the government cut us off. I was one who got cut off. Then as the war started in earnest, they started drafting some of the dentists who hadn’t been in at all, and then the business started picking up for all of us. MT: What about 25th Street there? Did it boom more during the Depression time than at other times, or what was the condition? CF: I would say yes because I know a number of the people. Some of them lived up in this area that worked down there. They were among the prosperous people, and bootlegging was doing a lot. Some of the people who owned buildings down there were getting good rental off the buildings. They claimed they didn’t know what was going on down there, and this was brought out in investigations later on when they finally tried to close up a lot of this stuff on 25th Street. It was brought out because the Rose Rooms down there, she said that she didn’t know what was going on down there. She didn’t realize it, but she did all the time because she was really prospering. They were doing good down there, and a lot of that. One of the auto courts in Ogden that is now operating was built entirely on bootleg money. They did well enough and got enough money that he quit the bootlegging and was able to hire Native Americans here to do all the dirty work. They would get arrested, and he’d bail them out. When the war came on, they had jail records and couldn’t get in it. His family could. But he was one of the instigators. I did his dental work when money was hard to get, and he was sent to me 17 by another doctor. He had been going to another dentist, and he had a good-looking girl, but her teeth were very crooked. Another dentist had tried to fool with them, and I knew nothing about that particular work at that particular time. They weren’t very successful. They only had one orthodontist in Salt Lake, and he brought her in to me. He was very rough, very crude, and crudely wanted to know what I was going to do about the girl. I said personally that I wasn’t going to do anything. I said, “Just calm down, and I’ll send you to a person who can.” He said, “I don’t care about the money. I don’t care about the money. Whatever it costs, I’ll pay it.” And I knew he was a bootlegger. So I called up the dentist in Salt Lake, and I told him what I had. I said, “He can afford to pay for it, and you see that he does pay plenty for it.” He was standing right by my side when I told him. This other fellow that I did work for, another farmer, they came from Rock Springs. While he was sitting in my chair, he said, “I have all the money I need. I don’t need to work.” And he didn’t need to work. He had plenty of money, and he bought gas stations to get his boys jobs. I had a man come in, and he had gotten in a fight there and had broken his front teeth. The more I talked to him, I assumed he was a bootlegger. I didn’t want to soak him if he wasn’t, if he was an honest man. I knew they were having their problems. But if he was a bootlegger, I wanted my money. So I kind of fished around but I couldn’t get out of him what he really did. He was manager of one of the clubs down on 25th Street. Well, that gave me a clue. I told him what a new bridge would cost him. It was about three times what I would have normally charged. He said, “Well, you just as well get started on it.” 18 I told him that it was a cash job because we had learned that if we didn’t get cash from them at the time you did the job, they would be in jail, and you couldn’t get it. So I went to work on him, and I got my money all right, and I finished the job. Two days later, he was picked up for owning a house of prostitution and was banished from the state. He went down to Las Vegas and practiced down there. One night, he came back here and got into another scrap and broke a tooth. He came into Ogden, and it was a hot summer evening. I was ready to quit, and he wanted me to fix his teeth. He said, “You’ll get your money.” He wouldn’t leave the office until I got done. In between sessions, while I was working in the lab, he was calling his friends. I had to work until midnight. He said, “Doc, you’re a fool working this way.” He said, “I’m a welder by trade, but,” he said, “I made $100,000 this year down in Las Vegas running the business I run.” He said, “What do you want to work like this for?” But these were the temptations these fellows put before us. But of course my standards would not go along with this kind of thing. I did his work, and he paid me cash, and I charged him plenty. MT: What do you think it was more difficult for yourself or the average person to secure, food or clothing? CF: Well, I would say clothing may have been harder, but I don’t think they put so much stress on clothing. After all, people will try to take care of the pangs of hunger first and clothing second. People liked to dress neatly, perhaps more respectably, maybe, than they do now. But nevertheless, they would make the 19 most of little, more so, I would say, than they do now. Because their attitude was, there was still a semblance of pride among the people, more so than there has been during the last few years. MT: Were there people in your acquaintance who did their own shoe repair and things along this line? CF: Yes, a lot of people did. They would do anything and try to fix anything up that they could. You could go into Woolworth’s and stores like that, and you could buy rubber patches that you could glue on your shoes, and people did it. It was hard for them to do it, and they didn’t do as good a job. But they did a service. People wore cheaper clothing, bit by bit. Sometimes they would look quite nice and try hard to keep it nice. It wouldn’t last long because they were buying everything cheaper. Of course anybody that came out with anything cheaper, people tried it. Lots of times they got bit on it because they got things that were too cheap for the money they put into it. This was caused by these fellows who travel through the country selling clothing and things that way, and they would write and say they were coming through with clothes from Hong Kong, and they would sell it for half what it would cost in the store. The people would order, and when they got it, well, they really got taken. I got taken once that way, but not like a lot of them. I was on the seventh floor of the Eccles Building, and there were a whole bunch on the floor that got taken on some suits because they were no good. I’d paid $5 down. Well, the other guys, when they came, they paid the balance. Then when they saw what they got, they saw they were really taken. Well, I lost my $5, but I didn’t get them, 20 and I was still money ahead. And this was a problem. Deception was a common problem. Fellows came through selling gowns, and they would take your measurements and your order and give you a receipt. They had stolen the order books, and the company didn’t have any connection with it, and they took the deposits. MT: What about patent medicine during that time? Was there much of that? CF: Yes, there was quite a lot of patent medicine sold. One of the most common things at that time was Crazy Crystals, but that was pushed from down in Texas. There were a lot of things just like that. I can’t remember the names of a lot of them. They sent samples to you, and they tried to get you to prescribe them and push them. Crazy Crystals were really the rage, and people would come in to me and tell me how much better they felt from Crazy Crystals. It cut out their constipation and they felt better. I quizzed them, and I told them, “You can do the same by drinking water.” I said, “They’ve given you enough to give you a mild laxative, but, “I said, “Then they prescribe for you to drink so much water a day with it.” I said, “If you’d just drink the water, you’d get the same result.” Some of them didn’t believe it, and to this day, I have patients come in and say, “How do I take care of this situation.” I tell them, “You don’t drink enough water.” MT: What were some of the good things that came out of the Depression? CF: I would say at that time that people learned a little more self reliance. They learned to work. They learned to be more dependable in the things they did, and they tried to do more for themselves. I think also they learned to be more cooperative and helpful toward one another. There was more of a spirit of 21 cooperation. We were all in this boat together. People were more willing to cooperate because they couldn’t do it otherwise. There was more of a spirit of friendliness. Of course, as I say, there were exceptions of those who tried to be greedy, but there was more of a spirit of friendliness and cooperation. MT: What did the wards do for entertainment then? Did they do a better job than they do now? CF: Yes, I would say they did because there had to be more of that kind of cooperation, and the wards tried every way they could to bring the people together because otherwise it was very depressing. It was a Depression both in spirit and in finance because people were hurt. People did more, and got together, and tried to help them out. It was a period of trying to organize. I think that the wards in the [LDS] church soon found out what they had to do because, heretofore, they had been depending upon commercialism, business to do these things. But now the people couldn’t afford the commercial, and they had to cooperate or they’d die. There was more of it done. You’d find people more willing to do things. Of course, they stumbled along and struggled along trying to do some of these things. Of course when the church welfare program first came out, it was a blundering program. I criticized it a lot because when they started it out, they wanted the people in the wards who had fruit and those things to give every so many bottles to the ward to give to the needy. Well, my criticism came this way – the needy, all right. But let the needy help put it up. But if they want to come into the ward, let’s get together and we’ll furnish the fruit, not us do all the labor for 22 them. So that’s a few criticisms that way started to bring the spirit of cooperation out of it, and they began to do things. But my wife was busy with three little children, and I didn’t feel like loading her down with work to give to the others without them working in payment for it. So I said I would be glad to furnish the fruit and help with the bottles and a few things that way, but let them help to put it up. Finally it did begin to change, and soon it got to be a kind of cooperative thing within the ward. But it was a development process. MT: Did you have any innovative method of developing your clientele? CF: Yes, it was a matter of trying to work through clubs and others to try to develop educational programs through the PTA to show people that if they would regularly take care of their dental work that it would be much cheaper than if they had to get a lot done at once. We did a lot of educational work that way through clubs and PTA, and lecturing at the schools and organizations.