Oral History Program Holly Hirst Interviewed by Michael Thompson 24 June 2021 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Holly Hirst Interviewed by Michael Thompson 24 June 2021 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State University Oral History Project began conducting interviews with key Weber State University faculty, administrators, staff and students, in Fall 2007. The program focuses primarily on obtaining a historical record of the school along with important developments since the school gained university status in 1990. The interviews explore the process of achieving university status, as well as major issues including accreditation, diversity, faculty governance, changes in leadership, curricular developments, etc. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Hirst, Holly, an oral history by Michael Thompson, 24 June 2021, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Holly Hirst 24 June 2021 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Holly Hirst (born 1955). Ms. Hirst was a student at Weber State College in the 1980s and 1990s. While attending school, she first worked on campus in the Women’s Educational Resource Center and then moved to the Human Resources Department. She also was adjunct faculty in the English Department. The interview was conducted on June 24th, 2021 by Michael Thompson in order to gather Ms. Hirst’s experiences and stories of her time as a student and employee of Weber State University. MT: This is an oral history interview with Holly Hirst. My name is Michael Thompson, I'll be interviewing and Marina Kenner is helping as the film technician. This is taking place on June 24th, 2021 in the archives conference room at Weber State University. When and where were you born? HH: I was born December 24th, 1955 in Ogden at the old St. Benedict's Hospital, on Polk Avenue. It is now senior low-income housing. MT: Would you like to talk a little bit about your early life and what it was like growing up here in Ogden? HH: I didn't actually grow up in Ogden. I was born here and lived just a few blocks from campus for a few years until my parents built a home in Roy, which is about 5 miles west of Ogden. Back then, Roy was very small and the subdivision we lived in was somewhat isolated. It was surrounded by fields with two railroad tracks below. The school was only about a mile away as the crow flies, but we went to school on a bus up 4800 South to 1900 West and back down 4000 S to a new school that was also located in the middle of a field. Now it’s about a 10- 1 minute walk through a subdivision. We lived in that house until I was seven when we moved to River Heights, Utah. We stayed there for about a year and then we came back to Roy. I think the population was about 9000 then. We spent a lot of time in Ogden. We went to movies at the Egyptian theater, bought penny candy at JC Penney’s, I even remember going bowling somewhere on Washington Boulevard and we went swimming at Rainbow Gardens. The indoor pool is now the sunken gift shop. We moved a lot during my adolescence. In all, I attended eight different schools. It wasn’t ideal, but I had some great experiences and made some lifelong friends. When I married I returned to Roy. Actually, where I live right now is less than a mile from where the first house was in Roy. It feels like I’ve gone a long way and haven't gotten very far, at least geographically. I was raised by a single, divorced mom. She was divorced at a time when it wasn't common. The 60s and 70s were a challenging time for women. Even with a good job and steady income, it was difficult to get loans and establish credit without a man to co-sign on the loan. Issues such as gender discrimination and sexual harassment were, if not common at least, not rare in the workplace. I watched my mother struggle and deal with the stigma of being female and divorced and having to work twice as hard and be twice as good in order to get still less than her male counterparts. It made a big impression on me. It’s discouraging that all these years later women are still dealing with some of these issues. MT: Were you encouraged to pursue an education by your parents? 2 HH: We were tremendous readers. There were always books in our home and in the homes of my grandparents. We had a set of encyclopedias and I think I read them all from A to Z. We were encouraged to check out books from the school library and a county library bookmobile stopped across from the house once a week during the summer months when school was closed. Of course, we read the Sunday comics in the newspaper and we always purchased comic books on allowance day. We didn't really talk about education, though. My mom got a college degree later in life in order to be promoted through the ranks of federal government civil service. Watching her learn as an adult and seeing how it changed her perspective and demeanor made a huge impression on me. I was always a good student. I was curious and school came easy to me. I enjoyed it. Still we didn’t really talk about college in terms of my future. When I was in school, they pushed everyone to get a high school diploma, but I think it was assumed that most girls would marry and have a family. I don’t remember anyone having a serious conversation with me about pursuing education beyond high school. The reality for me was that when I finished high school and wanted to go to college, there wasn't any money to do so. However, I never stopped thinking about it. I just kept trying to find ways to do it. I was married and had two children before I got there, but I got there all the same. I loved the classes, I loved the learning. It felt like I was in my element and I knew I could do it. I didn't really know what I was going to do with it, but I knew that it was something I wanted. It was important to me. 3 MT: When you did attend, was Weber the first place you attended or did you attend elsewhere? HH: Weber State College was where I began my academic career. It was nearby, affordable and I could work my classes around my family obligations. MT: What did you study at Weber? HH: Initially, I worked on general education requirements because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to learn. I did all my generals and tied them up into an associate's degree. Then I had to make some decisions. There were so many things I was interested in, but I had no real goal. I didn’t know what I wanted to be when I grew up. I was taking English classes, which I enjoyed, and I took a couple of classes from Dr. Levi Peterson. He kept writing on my papers, “Come see me”. Dr. Peterson would allow us until the end of the day on the day it was due to turn them in. I was working at Weber State during this time, so I could take my papers over after work and slide them under his door. Every paper that was returned had the familiar, “come see me, come see me.” I was getting good grades on my papers and I didn’t understand why I needed to go see him. I was busy, and by that point not only was I working full-time, but I was also a single mom with two small children. Also, I was a little nervous about going to see him, so I just didn’t make the effort. One evening, as I slipped my paper under the door, the door opened and there he stood. He asked me to come in and talk. He said, "If you haven't chosen 4 a major, you should choose English." And I said, "Why?" He said, "Because you write really well." This makes me laugh now and I should be embarrassed by it I suppose. I said, “What would I do with an English degree?” I was talking to an English professor and I said, "What would I do with an English degree?" He looked at me kind of funny and then he laughed and challenged me to think of a discipline where the ability to write and communicate well wouldn’t be a valuable skill. Of course, I couldn’t. He said, “Choose whatever you want, but this is what you should major in.” So I did. MT: What was Weber like when you started? What year did you start officially? Do you remember? HH: I began working at Weber in 1988 and started classes a few years prior. It was very small. There was only one campus. The Wattis Business Building was fairly new. The Education building, UB, the old Science building and the Lind Lecture hall, and the original buildings (one, two, three, and four) were here. Also, the library, Lampros Hall, the Browning Center, the Swenson gym and the Technical Education building were here. Annexes dotted the remaining spaces on campus. Some of those buildings have been torn down to make way for new buildings. Others have been completely remodeled and/or repurposed. The growth and transformation of the campus during my time here is remarkable. When I was a student, we still had a cosmetology program on campus and buildings 1, 2, 3, and 4 had lockers in the hallways. As I walk through the modern, state of the art, efficient buildings now, it’s hard to imagine. 5 MT: Where did you have most of your classes? Were they in buildings one through four, or were they elsewhere on campus? HH: Most of my classes, interestingly enough, were in the old social science building. The English department was housed there. My classes were all over the building and even though I spent years going to classes in the building, the room numbering never made sense to me. It was very confusing. I don’t know if you remember that. MT: Yes, I do. HH: The joke was that the sociology and psychology students did the room numbering as a class project, because it was like a maze. Every semester I would work out a strategy of which door to go into and which steps to go up in order to get me as close to my classrooms as possible. I remember it being a dark and dreary building. I was working on a Bachelor of Arts, so I had to do foreign language classes. Most of those classes were in Building One. When it came time to work on a minor, I received permission from the department chair to complete a business and technical writing minor. The business classes were in the Wattis Building. I had a few classes elsewhere on campus, but the majority of my classes were in the social science building. MT: Who were your favorite professors that you had? HH: Dr. Levi Peterson was a mentor. Dr. Robert Hogge was a favorite. They had different teaching strategies, some of which I adopted when I began teaching as an adjunct instructor. They also had very different perspectives on education and 6 life, which gave me a lot to think about. For example, I was never a fan of science fiction until Dr. Hogge required me to read and report on “A Canticle for Leibowitz” by Walter M. Miller, Jr. I loved it and while it’s still not my favorite genre, I do occasionally now read and enjoy science fiction. Judy Elsley was another of my favorites. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for each of them. MT: Were you a part of any student organizations? Did you have time? HH: I wasn't involved in student organizations. I was a non-traditional student and at the end of the day, I needed to be home with my kids. Also, I was the sole provider in my home and I had to make ends meet. In my spare time, I taught piano lessons in my home, proctored tests here on campus, and read books onto tape for the blind students at the University of Utah. MT: Along with that, what were some of the other challenges you faced in obtaining your degrees, aside from trying to balance your schedule? Were there any as far as being a female on campus or anything like that that stand out to you? HH: I don’t recall any gender specific challenges. Also, even though I was a nontraditional student, I wasn’t much older than the other students. I don’t recall feeling like I didn’t fit in. My challenges were time and money; trying to figure out ways to pay my tuition and stay in school, and then find the time to study, complete assignments, and meet deadlines and still be somewhat sane at home. MT: What degrees and certifications do you have other than your B.A. in English? 7 HH: I have a general associate's degree and a B.A. in English, from Weber State College and Weber State University respectively, and a master's degree in English from Utah State University. MT: From some of the research I did, and based on what I heard at your retirement party, it mentioned you worked in the Women's Resource Center. What was that like and what led you to getting a job in that center? HH: I applied for a job at Weber State because I wanted to take advantage of the tuition benefit. That was my sum-total motivation. My plan was to get a job at Weber, finish my degree and then get a “real job.” My first job at Weber was Secretary for the Women's Educational Resource Center. It's hard to imagine now, but it was in the union building just across the lounge from what used to be the cafeteria on the second floor just inside the doors to the outside facing the Library. There were a couple of offices on the south side of the lounge, near where the Non-Trad Center is now. There were big picture windows into the reception area of each office and I sat directly in front of one of those windows. It was like being in a fishbowl looking out at all the students who occupied the lounge. The Women's Educational Resource Center, WERC, shared a suite with the Multicultural Education Resource Center, MERC, and the Adult Educational Resource Center AERC. Dr. Alan Dayley had oversight over all three, so he was my first boss. In the Women’s Educational Resource Center, we helped nontraditional students, mostly women, connect to resources within the community and within the college that would help them with financing, counseling, peer mentoring, seminars and other resources, so that they could 8 stay in and finish school. I did the intake, scheduled appointments, answered phones, and provided brochures. I was in that role for two years. I enjoyed my time there, but I remember it being a very stressful environment. Our clients were dealing with real challenges, some of them heartbreaking. About two years in, I decided I was ready for a change. I went to Human Resources and spoke to Deanna Hall, who was the Employment Supervisor, about transferring to another area on campus. She explained the process to me and then sent me away with some information to consider. A few weeks later, she called me and she said, "Do you want a new job or not?" And I said, "I do." And she said, "Well why didn’t you apply for the HR position?" There was a job in Human Resources, and I hadn't even looked at it. At the time, the job postings were printed. It was about eight or ten pages thick and printed on blue paper and called “the blue sheet.” Every week they were typed in WordPerfect and sent to Printing Services for printing. Each Friday, there was a flurry of activity in the HR office as multiple bins of blue sheets were folded, labeled and readied for pickup by Mail Services. They were sent to whoever requested one; on-campus and off-campus. Hundreds were sent out each week. It was quite a process. I was on the mailing list and even though Deanna’s instruction to me had been to watch the blue sheet every week, I hadn’t even looked at it from the time we had the conversation until she phoned me about the position in HR. She pointed me to the job and I applied at the very last possible moment. I was sure I had blown my chances because I had ignored 9 her advice. She hired me despite my lapse and that was the beginning of my time in Human Resources. MT: Okay. HH: I started at the front desk and, over time, moved from desk to desk and position to position working my way up until I made it to my final job which was Deputy Chief Human Resource Officer. Along the way, when I would start to feel as if I had gone as far as I could go in a particular position I’d reconsider my plan to teach English or be a technical writer or copyeditor. However, every time, just as I was ready to make a move, another opportunity would present itself in HR. There was a point, ultimately, where the benefits of staying in HR outweighed the benefits of pursuing a teaching or writing career. Also, I discovered that I liked being challenged by my work in HR. Still, I wanted to finish what I had started in terms of my education, so at a point when nothing was going on at work or in my private life, I enrolled in a Masters of English program at Utah State University. Of course, almost immediately, everything changed. There was a complete reorganization in HR. I suddenly had a more responsible, more demanding role. Then my parents’ health started to fail, which meant I had more family responsibility. I won’t say it was easy, but I managed to finish my degree in the time frame I had set for myself. By then I was committed to staying in HR for the rest of my career either at WSU or elsewhere, but I thought maybe I could have the best of both worlds. I applied to teach as an adjunct instructor in English and was hired almost immediately. I loved it. Teaching is completely different from the work I do in HR, so it never became tiresome or tedious. I have 10 no regrets. It seems like everything worked out the way it should have. I feel like I do indeed have the best of both worlds. MT: When did you start teaching? HH: 2005. MT: What mentors or resources did you have available to you throughout your degree and the program? Did you use the women's center? HH: The Women’s Educational Resource Center didn't have the resources I needed most, but there were other resources available. For example, there was a period of time when my kids and I were all going to Weber State at the same time. I discovered that because we were all in school and we only had one income we were all able to get grants through financial aid. I also discovered a scholarship that both my kids qualified for that was enough to pay for their books and supplies. Their education was paid for in full, and between my employee tuition benefit and the financial aid that I could get, I didn't have to pay much for mine. My boss at the time, Stan Greenhalgh, was a great mentor to me both professionally and academically. He was a big proponent of having a “Plan B.” It's because of Stan and his guidance that I ended up counseling employees, women in particular, that they should always have a Plan B. They should make sure they always have a current resume and even if they aren’t actively considering a change, they should always be looking for and considering job opportunities. I encourage them to apply for those positions that will stretch them professionally and tell them to not become discouraged if they don’t get the job. 11 If nothing else, they have a polished resume and will have had an opportunity to practice interviewing. Then when their dream job becomes available, they will be prepared to compete. I was able to do most of my classes around my work schedule, but the little bit of flexibility I needed, Stan afforded me. My professors were also very supportive. I didn't have the fear, the anxiety, that a lot of students have about all the what ifs. MT: Was there any resistance or any battles that you faced as you progressed through your career? HH: Back in the day, it was fairly common for a female applicant to be asked if she was planning to get married or expand her family. It was equally common for men to have higher salaries and to be given more opportunities for upward mobility. Women tended to have to work harder and do more in order to be taken seriously. That being said, yes, there were challenges, but I feel like I was able to work through them. Every challenge was a learning opportunity. A growth experience. I feel fortunate that I was able to use those experiences to help effect change on campus. I feel equally fortunate that I had the opportunity to work so closely with search committees during the hiring process and with supervisors dealing with employee issues. I want to believe that because of those efforts, some of the behaviors and biases I experienced in the early days are rare on campus today. 12 MT: How else as Weber State changed over time? Both the campus itself, and from the HR perspective that you have. HH: The growth has been tremendous. I’ve always thought Weber State was very much like a city. We have all the services and functions that you would find in a city: administrators, accountants, attorneys, maintenance, police, food service, athletics, etc. In the early days, we were smaller, so there was a more familial sort of feel to it. As we’ve grown, we’ve lost some of that familiarity, in the same way a city struggles to maintain its sense of community as it grows and develops. However, it’s exciting to have witnessed the growth in not only the campus, now campuses, but in how we view ourselves. I think we take ourselves and our university more seriously now than we did when I first arrived at Weber State. As for HR, when I started HR, we had five employees–a director, two managers and two clerical staff. We administered typing tests in a small closet in the back of the office. The applications were paper and completed by hand. We put them in folders that were given to the hiring managers for review and selection. We conducted business face-to-face or via mail and, shortly after I arrived, email. We now have fifteen employees that manage seven distinct functional areas in HR. We provide better service than ever before to both current and future employees. Most services are available both in person and electronically and I’m happy to say that the “blue sheet” and the paper applications are a thing of the past. Even the personnel files and the associated filing cabinets are being phased out. Most HR records are now digital. 13 MT: What committees or organizations have you served on, either on campus or elsewhere throughout your career? HH: Wow, it’s a tough question. Over time I’ve served on many committees, subcommittees, etc., usually as part of an effort to change or improve some process or function. In my role in HR, I served on the STAR team and the criminal background check committee and the policy review committee. I had oversight of the search committee and training process and spent countless hours with the individual committees. I was part of the Faculty Staff Association committee in the early days. Most recently, I served on the Remote Work Alternative Work Arrangement Committee. My work at WSU has afforded me the opportunity to be a part of some of the growth and change I was talking about before. I feel very fortunate. MT: As an adjunct, have you had the opportunity to be published at all? HH: Not as an adjunct, no. However, in one of Judy Elsley’s classes, we did some writing and she actually had it published. It’s in the library in the stacks somewhere. The demands of my job and teaching doesn’t leave much time for writing and publishing, but I’m planning to do some writing in retirement. I’ve already begun work on a memoir and I have an idea for a children’s book. You’ll have to wait and see. MT: Were those experiences few and far between that they talked about where it was just really stressful employment issues? 14 HH: Well it's HR. The employees are an important resource, but they are also human. We can never forget that. They have lives and families and personal and professional stressors. Every decision we make, every policy we write, every change in benefits we make, every conversation we have with someone who's struggling with something, has far reaching consequences. We have to remember that those decisions, those conversations, can affect the employees lives and not just their work lives. I never lost sight of that. Every conversation I have is measured for that reason. Sometimes I have to deliver hard messages, but I try to do it in a way that they can understand and accept and then see a way to move forward. To answer your question, the experiences they were talking about weren’t uncommon and they could be challenging. That being said, it can take a toll. I have to be sure to make time to decompress. It's stressful and as hard as it can be, I'm very grateful for the opportunity I’ve had to work through those situations. I admit that the fails can sometimes feel epic, but the wins, usually meaning an acceptable compromise, are very satisfying. MT: In conjunction with that, how has the current COVID-19 pandemic affected the HR department? Did you see a rise in the amount of stress that you guys were handling? HH: HR handled the pandemic very well. We figured out how to manage all of our processes remotely and made adjustments as necessary while we were working remotely. We figured out how to stay in touch with each other and employed strategies to destress. We continued to talk every day although via zoom or the phone. We routinely checked temperatures, meaning we took the time to ask 15 how everyone was coping and offering assistance if necessary. We had regular meetings, but play time was an agenda item in every meeting. For example, in one meeting we had a mask decorating party. We provided them with a surgical mask and instructed them to decorate it with things that were readily available in their homes (no shopping). It was very fun and I was impressed by the creativity of the staff. Ultimately, in terms of keeping HR processes going and keeping track and staying close with our HR employees, we did that very well. Outside of HR, we did note an increase in anxiety and depression, but the work went on. Change and uncertainty are challenging for people, but by and large, the faculty and staff at Weber State University did one massive pivot and many, many smaller ones along the way, and moved on. We learned a lot from the pandemic. Individual perspectives have changed. I know mine has, in terms of what's important and what isn't. As we started bringing people back, we began to consider our business model and how we can move forward post pandemic. We formed a committee to define remote work and had a good working model long before the governor rolled his version out. We started looking at individual jobs and workplace efficiencies. It was an amazing process. MT: What are some of your favorite memories here at Weber State, either of employees you've worked with or various activities or events that have happened on campus? HH: Well, the people make Weber State a great place to work. Also, the work/life balance is important. Being able to go to the gym at lunch or the theatre after work and even bring the kids to campus for swim lessons makes for a great 16 environment. Also, the kinds of activities that bring people together from all campuses is very energizing. For example, singing carols during the holidays or running a 5k around campus make being at Weber State a positive experience. Camaraderie and collaboration are important to fulfilling the mission. My favorite memories are of people. Mary Jo LaTullipe is one. She was a good mentor and friend when we were in WERC and she was great fun to work with. There have been so many people and events over time, it’s hard to pinpoint specific ones. My farewell party was really fun. MT: Yes, that was really fun. It was the first retirement party I've been to where they actually had speakers. Most of the time it's just the retirees standing there greeting people. HH: Travis Hampshire was one of the speakers. He and I worked together in HR years ago. It was great to see him. He talked about the “hard conversations.” Like I mentioned before, every conversation has to be measured and careful and it’s fairly common to second guess yourself after a particularly difficult conversation. Did I do the right thing? Did I say the right thing? What are the consequences? Since most of what we do in HR is confidential, we can't talk about it outside of HR and that makes it challenging. It was great having Travis and others to talk to. MT: During your career, Weber State has had a few different presidents. Did you ever have a chance to work with any of them on a personal level or I guess what was it like when a new president would come on? HH: HR isn’t involved in the recruitment and hiring of presidents, but we do support them once they are on board. We help them set up their staff and whatever else 17 they need. HR has had a good working relationship with the President’s office during my time here. Each president is different, they have different approaches and agendas, but I enjoyed working with all of them. MT: What recognition have you received for your accomplishments? HH: I received the Presidential Outstanding Staff Award a few years ago and as you know I was given the Chief’s Citation when I retired. I also received multiple awards for working on different teams. MT: Going back to COVID, how closely did HR work with Dane LeBlanc? HH: Dane is the Chief Safety Officer. He coordinated the team that made decisions during the pandemic. HR was represented and very involved. HR was responsible for communicating the decisions made by the committee and assisting with the implementation of protocols. One example would be that while the testing and the vaccinations were being handled by the larger group, in HR we were managing those people who had been exposed or had a family member who had COVID and all the other variables. We had to manage the protocols and maintain the records while supporting the individual departments so the work could continue. We had to figure out how to move people off campus and then if, when, and how to bring people back. Meanwhile, we had to start thinking about what Weber State is going to look like in the future. MT: Was Weber moving more towards that remote work setting before COVID or was it a result of COVID? 18 HH: We had remote work protocols in place before COVID, but COVID really pushed us to think beyond what we already had. We learned a lot along the way. We are after all an institution of higher education, so when we have opportunities to learn, we learn and then we take what we learned and become better. MT: How have you become a mentor to others in your field, and what advice would you give to individuals looking to start in the HR or English fields. HH: HR is a discipline, just like the law. When I was coming up, it was possible to learn as you go, but the world has changed and it’s increasingly important that HR professionals have the experience and credentials necessary to be effective leaders who have a seat at the table with other university administrators. That being said, I would recommend that future HR professionals take the time to earn the degrees (i.e.HR, MBA, Business Administration) and also get adequate functional expertise in all of the functional areas of HR–employment, benefits, training, employee relations, ADA/FMLA. Taking the time to do generalist work is beneficial. Not only can they then decide which area/s of HR they are interested in, but they can gain an understanding of the challenges of each area and how they function independently as well as together. For women, I would say figure out what you're passionate about and then just go for it and don't take no for an answer. If you have the capability, if you have the skills and if you have the intelligence that you need in order to pursue your dreams then do it, and don't get sidetracked by all the noise. The workplace is very different now than it was when I started, and it's only going to get better from here. 19 MT: Thank you for taking the time to be interviewed. It's been very interesting to learn about your career and how you got into HR. We will be sad to see you go from HR. Is there anything else that may have popped up from the questions that you want to say last minute? Memories or anything? HH: Over time, I had the opportunity to speak to groups of new employees. You've probably been in one where I talked about how HR has been a good deal for me. I've told my story about how I never intended to have a career at WSU, yet here I am all these years later and now I’m retiring from Weber State. Weber State afforded me the opportunity to get my education as well as the flexibility to work, study and raise my children. I could have made more money faster if I had gone elsewhere, but I wanted more than money. I wanted the whole package. It was a good choice for me and I have no regrets. MT: Okay, thank you again. ADDENDUM Michael Thompson and Holly Hirst continued their conversation after the interview concluded. The following addendum is a section of this conversation that was recorded to include in this oral history. HH: If I had to choose one person who has influenced me the most it would be Barry Gomberg. He challenged me in ways that I didn’t always like, but I am the professional I am today as a result. Our professional relationship evolved to the point that we could challenge each other in sometimes spirited discussions. We 20 didn’t always agree, but we maintained a deep respect for each other. When he spoke at the party, he mentioned “the brain.” It was a plastic stress ball shaped like a brain. If he thought I had made a mistake, he’d pound on the brain and then we’d discuss what went wrong. I didn’t always agree with him and that was open to discussion, too. On occasion, I was able to catch one of his mistakes, in which case I’d take the brain to his office and pound on it. It was always good natured, but always serious and always instructive. Over time we found fewer and fewer reasons to pound on the brain. When he retired, I put the brain in a gift bag. It was during COVID, so we did a drive by. We wore masks and as I drove by, I handed him the gift bag on the end of a grabber. He opened it and said, “What's this?” And I said, “Well, who is going to pound on my brain? I don't need it anymore.” He was very touched by the gesture, but he laughed and then kept it so he could return it when I retired. Our entire professional relationship was intellectual back and forth. It was never argumentative; it wasn't like that. I always felt safe and free to disagree. It could get really loud, but it was always collegial. I’m very grateful to him. Very grateful. He was an amazing mentor. Thank you. 21