Oral History Program Lynn Craine Interviewed by Don Cavalli 28 August 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Lynn Craine Interviewed by Don Cavalli 28 August 1971 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Craine Lynn, an oral history by Don Cavalli, 28 August 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Lynn Craine. The interview was conducted on August 28, 1971, by Don Cavalli, in Weber County Jail. Craine discusses his experiences in different jails, and also expresses his opinions on the systems used in jails. He also expresses his opinion on what he thinks could change to better these systems. DC: The following is an interview of Lynn Craine, by Don Cavalli, on August the 28, 1971, at 10:45 A.M. in the Weber County Jail for the Utah Oral History Project. Okay Lynn, uh, first question I’d like to ask is a kind of a background question and I'd like to find out a little bit about the person I'm talking about, talking with, and so I'd like to maybe have you talk about your early childhood, you know, maybe where you were born. LC: Born Arizona, state Utah. DC: Okay, what city were you— LC: Harvey. DC: I see. Do you have a large family; were you raised in a large family or — LC: Just two of us. DC: I see, uh, what other…a brother… LC: Yeah. DC: I see. Uh, okay, where did you attend school? LC: I didn’t. DC: You didn’t go to uh, elementary, uh… 1 LC: Oh, yeah, I went to a Washington Terrace first, then I went from there to Weber, I mean uh, Wallcreast, then I got kicked out of Weber. DC: I see. Weber High School? Is it? LC: Uh-huh. DC: So uh, you uh, completed what, the ninth grade? LC: Right. DC: And you were kicked out of the tenth grade? LC: Right. DC: I see. What did you do from that point? LC: Programmed. Went to the service got ma a bad conduct discharge spent 18 months federal. DC: You mean federal penitentiary? LC: Right. DC: I see. So that was actually, was that the first experience you had with the, uh, criminal disposition? LC: (grunt) DC: Okay, it started back when you were a juvenile? LC: Yeah. DC: Okay, you, you recall the circumstances surrounding the first, uh, the first time you were picked up by the police officer? LC: Yeah, with G.T.A. 2 DC: Okay, what does G.T.A. mean? LC: Means with grand theft auto. DC: I see. Okay, and how long did you spend, uh, what happened? What came out of that? LC: Nothing. They kicked us out of court completely. DC: I see. You recall what happened after that? LC: Yeah, you try to go straight and people downstairs won't let you. DC: Okay, uh, now you--apparently you were placed on general probation? LC: Nope. DC: You never were huh? Uh, did you ever spend time in juvenile detention? LC: Yeah, two days. DC: What did you think of it? LC: Stinks. DC: Is that right? What was it like? LC: Just like being in a room or cell, four walls, a door, a bunk. That's better? DC: What was it, which one was it down here on? LC: Right down here on 23rd. DC: On Grand. A converted garage. LC: Yeah. DC: You recall how old you were when you were down there? 3 LC: 13 or 14. DC: I see. Okay, now were you ever, uh, were you ever sent to spend timein industrial school? LC: Nope. DC: Never spent any time out there. Okay when was the next time you were placed in in jail? Do you recall? LC: (whistle) Let’s see that would be about 18. DC: You were 18 years old. How much time did you spend in jail? LC: About one hour. DC: One hour. Is that right? Then bailment or bond was posted? LC: Bond was posted. DC: I see. Now...the only jail you've been in is Weber county Jail? LC: No, I've been in California Jail. DC: You've been in California Jail? LC: I've been wayside. DC: Okay, now what was it like, now was that, now you went to the military. How many times were you actually sent to jail? Before you entered the military? LC: About three times. DC: About three times. Now did you go to the military while you were on charge or-- LC: No. 4 DC: Oh I see. It was after you finished or served your time in jail then you went to the military. As you know a lot of people go into the military, if they've been charged for something they work out an agreement with course or something, that's why I was wondering. Okay, now you, you went into the military then you were sent into the federal penitentiary. How much time did you spend? LC: 18 months. DC: Okay now I haven't heard anything about federal penitentiary, could you tell me about your experiences in the federal penitentiary? LC: Well the only nice thing about it is you got; it's just an old folk’s home. That's all it is. You get your own private cell, you got hours that you work, you got a rec hall, you got chow a certain time, you got a job; you just do your time. About all you can do. DC: Did, did it rehabilitate you? LC: Yeah. DC: Did it? LC: For a while. DC: Did, did you have any experiences there that might be of interest? LC: Yeah, I've seen a lot of guys get thrown off of tiers, dropped off one day. DC: By other inmates? LC: Yeah. Find a rat in here and they drop him off a tier. He goes straight down and it's, it's hard concrete. Kills him. DC: So what you’re saying, is a rat, you mean someone who tells on the other inmates when they do something they shouldn’t be doing. 5 LC: When dope or something comes in there you've got a rat in there and he goes and tells them, they find out who it is and they go in there and kill him. DC: How many people got killed when you were there? LC: Two. DC: Two. Is drug a problem back there? LC: Yes it is. DC: How, what percent of the inmates are using drugs? LC: Over half. DC: What kind of drugs do they usually do? LC: Oh, they take these pills and they load them down and shoot them, oh they got all sorts of crap going in there. There's more dope and shit in there than there is on the street. DC: Is heroin a problem? LC: I only seen one heroin all the time I was there. DC: So there's mainly speed and… LC: Minus speed, grass, and stuff like that. DC: Yeah. Now, of course, how many years ago was this that you were in there? LC: Oh, about five. DC: About five years ago. So you were about 18 or 19 when you were in? LC: I was 19. DC: I see. Do you mind me asking what charges? 6 LC: Assault. DC: Assault. Assaulting an officer? LC: I assaulted my C.O. officer. Nearly killed him. DC: Okay, now after you got out of the federal penitentiary, what happened? LC: I come home, got married. DC: So are you married right now then? LC: Yes sir I am. DC: I see, and… LC: Got married twice. DC: This is your second married then? Okay then, uh, when was the… How long after you got out of the penitentiary before you had some problems with the law? LC: About six months. DC: About six months. And then, uh, did you come back to find to find a job? LC: Ahem. DC: How long did you spend here then? LC: Couple of hours. DC: I see. Then you were out on bond or bay? Okay, well let’s, let's talk a little about the Weber County Jail. You've spent time here. How many times have you been here do you recall? LC: Oh, about 10 tines. 7 DC: About 10 times. Okay will tell me about it. You've had a lot of experience here haven't you? What do you think about it? LC: Stinks, the food is something else. DC: Starched? LC: Oh, it's just crummy. The cooks up there they pull theme off the streets and half of them are drunks. DC: They're, they're actually those that are incarcrated and can go and cook if they… LC: Yeah. Yeah. DC: If they want to. What else is bad...? What, what would you do to… LC: The living conditions for one thing. DC: How many live in the same... LC: Well, in the cell I'm in, there's eight. DC: Eight. How large are they? LC: The building's about this big and they got the cell up, separate cells. You sit on hard cement or steel, cold steel, all day long. DC: Do you think this rehabilitates a person? LC: No, I don't. It just makes them hate. Just hate more, all, you know, more. DC: It makes them more hostile than they normally intend then. LC: Right. DC: O.K. Yeah, this is what we're really concerned with listening. 8 LC: With chicken shit guards out here. There's a lot of them too that are, oh, hostile towards you. DC: Is that right? LC: That's right. DC: What do they do? What kinds of things do they do that brings out this hostility? LC: Oh, just their mouthing-ness and stuff like that... DC: Are they--? LC: On Japs and all he is a little sawed off warpunk. That's all he is. DC: What kinds of things do they do to agitate as... LC: Well, we're supposed to be in our cells right after they come and pick up trays. Like last night we sat in our cell until twelve o'clock or not twelve, what was it? The lights went off at,supposed to go off at eleven, just about eight o’clock... DC: What else could be done to improve it? What kinds of things do you think ought to be made available? LC: Ah, guards. I mean these turn keys I think is chicken shit. DC: What kind of things would they do like to agitate you? LC: Oh, just like I said, the lights and stuff, you know, leaving your cell what they're supposed to in every-- And this guard the other night was mouthing us over the loud speaker. If I could have caught ahold of him, I'd kill him. DC: So they ah, what do they do, they just agitate? 9 LC: Just agitate you. DC: Just agitate. LC: All the time, all the time on your--and I hate to have anybody push me. DC: They weren't all like that, were they? LC: No. We got, like this one guard out there they call... He's the best term key they got, then you got these bunch of these smart assholes that. If you want something else from a different tier, you know, a differed floor? DC: Yes. LC: You've almost go to put in on a 201, you know, file to get whatever you want. You can't get it yourself. DC: Well, what about exercise yards? Or, what about multipurpose rooms, these kind of things; is there a place for them in the jail? LC: Shit no. If there is, I've never seen one. DC: I mean, would you like to see them, that’s what I’m… LC: Damn right I would. DC: See what we're doing we're contemplating building a new jail. LC: Yes. DC: And completely doing away with this jail here and that's probably going to happen within the next two or three years. LC: Well, I won't be here. I'll be doing from ten to life. 10 DC: Now, that is our state prison? LC: Yes. DC: Now, you haven't been tried yet? LC: No. DC: O.K. When, do your trial coming up, how soon? LC: I don't know... DC: They haven't set a date then. I see. LC: No. DC: O.K. Have you gone through your preliminary? LC: Yeah. DC: You have. LC: On the one charge. DC: They got you on other charges too then? LC: Yeah, two charges. They got me on two charges. DC: I see, same charges? LC: No. One was a ... saddle. DC: I see. What's that grand larceny? LC: No, it's just possession of stolen property. DC: Oh. 11 LC: That'll carry about six months. DC: In the jail? LC: Yeah, six months. DC: O.K. now, one thing we're thinking about is putting in an exercise yard. What do you think about that? Would that be good? LC: The best thing that ever happened. DC: What do you do about exercising now? LC: Push-ups and walk say about that wall to that wall right there... DC: Yeah. Not too much exercising room right? LC: There sure isn't, for doing push-ups or something like that. DC: Yeah, a lot of them I've talked to said they've lost weight every time they've been here is that true with you? LC: Well, the last time I was here was two months ago. I come in here I weighed 190 lbs. when I got out I weighed 175 lbs. DC: Oh. You were only there for how long? LC: Thirty-six days. DC: If I wanted to lose some weight, I guess I know where I could come, huh? LC: With... DC: Well, what about the multipurpose room, do you like, I've heard, I've had some people tell me, no, it wouldn't do any good, and I've had others tell me it'd be just fantastic. 12 LC: It would, I think it would, I think it would. DC: What do you think ought to be in that multipurpose room? LC: Weights or something like that where somebody can work out; work off their hostility instead of taking it out on…there. DC: Ah, you know, out at the, we've built a juvenile detention home. I don't know if you've heard about that or not. LC: (No.) DC: But, it's a beautiful facility. They're going to open it up September 1st, so I think Wednesday it's going to be opened up and we've got a multipurpose room there that we paid for with my program. LC: Yes. DC: Monies from my program and we have a shuffle board basketball court, punching bag, you know, the big ones and small ones. LC: Rice feed bags? DC: Yeah, rice feed bags. Do you think that would be good, a good thing to have here? LC: Yes, I do, really, because it takes the hostilities out on it instead of taking it out on the chicken shit guard. If they'd have had that when that little sissy Jackson got beat up, up here, you know, that wouldn't have happened. DC: Yeah. I guess when something like that happens does it make the guards a little more hostile LC: Makes him hostile. 13 DC: Yeah. Getting-- LC: He's, he's scared to go up on twelve. DC: They changed him then. LC: Yeah, they have. I haven't seen him since I've been here but here…me again. I hope they let me out of my cell and ... DC: O.K. well, now, let's, let's talk about you know a few other people who are in the system. You've had a lot of experience with the whole system apparently, and let's talk about the police officer. What do you think of the police officer? LC: Gotta be a law against them. DC: What kind of things have they done that, you know, that gives you— LC: Just harassed me. When I got out of the joint down there, I couldn't drive down the street without getting pulled over and they shake my car down from... DC: Mm. LC: Every day. That went on for about a week. Finally, I went and I had it stopped. They just go through your car, pull you over, go through your car, ask you for identification and you're on your way. I don t think I made it two blocks and there was another one. They did the same thing to my brother when he got out. DC: Now, where's your brother at right now? LC: He's in California. DC: I see. Now, he's been at the state prison too? LC: Yeah. 14 DC: How many times has he been out there? LC: Once. DC: Once. Have you ever been at the state prison? LC: Me? DC: Yeah. LC: Yeah, just to see him. DC: You have never spent time out there? LC: No. Nope I'll be going out there this time. DC: O.K. has the officer, I mean besides shaking you down, you know, and watching you pretty darn close and all that, have they done anything else that's really agitated you or given you a bad attitude towards them? LC: Oh, yeah. Last time they come and got me, they didn't have a warrant order. They just walked right straight out through the door like they owned the place. They don't, they didn't tell me the last charge what they had me on; they just took me out and put me in the car... DC: I see. Course I guess they did issue the man to warn you before they interrogated. LC: They didn’t issue anything. They just think that just because they wear a badge and they got a little tiny .38 or a 357 or whatever they carry, they're bad. DC: Have they ever, have you ever been abused by an officer? LC: I've been beat up a couple times by them. 15 DC: Did you ever take any steps to-- LC: It don't do any good. Them people, all they do is get up there on the stand and lie and everything like that, they yell, cuss, and booze and everything else and you've gone up to jail up here and they say, oh, he tripped or bumped his head or something…what's ever happened...all anybody's ever said. DC: Mm. That did happen on at least two occasions? LC: Yeah. Right down here. DC: Was it Ogden City Police? LC: It was Ogden City pigs. DC: I see. Did, do you think it was ever provoked or did they, do you think they had a reason? LC: No, they…for one guy around here and they just keep riding until they get him. DC: How, why, you know why do they get it in for guys? What usually... LC: Well, they know they're doing something but they can't prove it. It pisses them all too… DC: I see. O.K. now what about, now you've been through the judicial system and appeared before the court many times, how do you feel about the judicial system? Is it fair, is it...? LC: No, it isn't. This state, where they mess tip on this state or any other state they take a woman's word before they will anybody else's word. Like this charge I'm on now, I worked with this broad for a year before she found out I was married. Now all of a sudden boom, she throws the rest of the weight at me. DC: What else, what else do you see that's inequitable with the judicial system? 16 LC: Ah, the judges. They're, they get a big, they get prejudice against one guy, you know, they don't care how they do it. DC: Ah, are you surprised that you haven't been sent out before this? I mean, you said you've been in Weber County Jail ten times. LC: Yeah. DC: And, you know I would think from my experience that that's quite a few times without being sent up... LC: Yes. DC: Do you think that they've been fair with you as far as your own personal case is concerned? LC: I'll say about fifty-fifty. I got this one pig downstairs, cop, you know. He wants me so bad his teeth ache, upstairs. If he wants me that bad, well he's got me this time. DC: What does he want you off of? LC: He don't care what it is. He just wants me off the street. They say I'm a menace to society. DC: What could be done, at least in your opinion, what could be done as far as the judicial system is concerned to upgrade it and--? LC: They could straighten a hell of a lot of these judges out and kick half of these pigs they got off the police force. DC: What would they use to replace them? LC: They’d find somebody. DC: The problem with, as you probably realize, the problem with getting good police officers is that the salaries are low, number one; secondly, you don't have to have even a high school education 17 to become a police officer, ah, which means that probably most of them that join the forces, you know, might have had problems when they were younger. You know, might have been bullies, might have been the tough kid on the block and then too, they get abused a lot; they get called profane names. LC: Yeah. DC: Abusive names and they get roughed up; they get knifed once in a while. They get…again. LC: And they got to take it out on somebody that didn't come from the stuff like that, huh? DC: No, what I'm saying is, it's got to get people that are willing to go through that see, and it's really hard to get police officers. LC: I know where there was fifteen of them in Utah, these youngsters come down here you know, get a job with the police and they didn't have a high school education a shit and they… …if that ain't prejudice... DC: Were they black? LC: Black, white, I don't care what they are. DC: Yeah, yeah, right now I don't believe there are any black officers on the Young City police department. DC: County jail, at least they used to have, I haven't seen him... LC: Charlie, Charlie, he's still here. DC: Yeah, o.k. Yeah, Charlie, he's the only one that I know of. LC: I know; there's another one too. DC: Is there another one? Who's he with? Weber County Sheriff’s Office or… 18 LC: No, he's with Ogden City. DC: Oh, is that right? Oh, I didn't know they had anyone there. They used to have Marshal White, of course. LC: He's dead. DC: He's dead. O.K. what about, now have you been on probation-parole? LC: I've been on probation. I'm on probation now, that's what the…is. DC: How long have you, how much time have you spent on probation? LC: Mm, about six months. DC: What do you think or the system? …to you? LC: Yeah, I haven't, I haven't messed up once since I've been on probation. This is the first time. DC: Do you think, you think it's really been helpful then, it's really— LC: Definitely yes. DC: Is there any, what do they usually do, they consult with you once a week or… LC: No, it's once a month. You go in and fill out a report on what you’ve been doing and…in stuff like this and the probation officer I had…He's dead now. DC: He's dead. Oh, is that right, what happened? LC: Died of a heart attack, I guess, but now they got this, onto this and he's a quack. DC: Oh, yeah. LC: He liked to send people to the joint. He gets his kicks that way. DC: How have you been under his jurisdiction? 19 LC: Ah, just pretty good. DC: How long? LC: About a month. DC: Yeah, I wasn't even aware that Trivy died, you know. LC: Yeah, he's dead. DC: I'll be darned. What kind of personal contacts have they had with you? I mean, do you see them. You go and you fill out a report once a month, do you see them at the same time or? LC: Yeah, well, mostly if you want to see them you just ask for them and sit down wait for a minute for you. DC: I see. LC: But, other than that if you haven’t got a problem or nothing what's the use in seeing them? DC: Do they ever come out to your place? LC: Oh, once in a while, once in a while they come out. DC: How often, how much time do you think they…? LC: I seen…come out to my house one, once since I've been on, under, within his jurisdiction. DC: Mm. LC: And that was just to come out and get me so I could trim down his, his horses. DC: Well, were you, I guess you were employed while you've been on probation? LC: No. DC: You were in…then, I see. O.K. do you think that's one of the problems? 20 LC: It might be. DC: I've noticed that those are out in the adult halfway time, they're all employed. LC: Yeah, it's sure boring. DC: And they're just doing fantastically well. LC: Yeah. DC: They've got somebody to supervise them, you know, and yet they're employed and they're busy. LC: That's right. DC: Do you think that maybe that's the key to it? LC: That might be. DC: Would it work with you, do you think? LC: Yeah. As long as it, well, when I worked for…I worked... DC: Taking care of the horses and that? LC: No. This was at a garage. DC: Oh, I see. Excuse me. LC: I was born and raised around horses and there was no trouble whatsoever. My wife and I even got along, real good, real good but the instant…got smart with me…and he fired me and then trouble started again. DC: Ah, from our conversation I kind of sense that for some reason you have a hostility toward authority. LC: Well, it isn't so much that I've got it against that, I just, it's just that I can't stand smarting off punks. 21 DC: Yeah. Is there doubt, you know I'm just, I'm just really, see what I'm trying to think about is you know, what could be done for you. What you think you would like to have done for you that you would think would help you go straight, you know what I mean and keep you out of trouble? LC: Getting out of this God damn state is the only thing that will help me. DC: Out of the state of Utah. LC: Once I get out of the state of Utah if my wife wants to go with me, fine, if she don't, well fine. DC: What would you do if you left the state of Utah? LC: {Text unreadable} DC: I see. Ah, have you ever left the state before? LC: Yeah. DC: Did you make it when you were out of the state? LC: Yeah. DC: No problems? LC: All except California. They picked us up and I had out my back pocket and they stuck us in the can for six months and said that we was burglarizing some place and was going to walk around the street; two of us. DC: Were you ever convicted on the charge? LC: Spent six months and they just ducked and let me go. DC: What were you doing, waiting trial? LC: Yeah, waiting for it to come up, trial... 22 DC: Trial never came up. LC: That's right. DC: Is that a trouble over here? I mean, right now, you know, you say you don't know when your trial date is, is that right? LC: Well, that's true. Well, there's that, that is one of the big problems they got with their judges and stuff around here cause, well, like the kid upstairs. LC: He was supposed to go a month from now and they say, ah, Monday. They can do it and get away with it. DC: Mm. Ah just depends on who the attorney is, I guess, huh? LC: Yeah, no, it's the judge... DC: Course I guess he collaborates with the attorney in making the decisions as to who's going to fill that spot, huh? LC: Yeah. DC: How long do you think you'll spend in jail before your trial will actually come? LC: Five or six months. DC: About six months. LC: Six months to a year. Got a guy upstairs right now, his name's Scrapy and he's been here almost ten months. DC: Is that right? 23 LC: And every bit of that’s dead time. DC: By dead time you mean that's… LC: It don't count. DC: It doesn't count towards. LC: That's right. DC: When does his trial come up? Has it been set? LC: It's set for Monday. DC: Ten months, huh. Incredible. Now, were there any postponements? I mean you might not know, but did he ever postpone it? Did the defense postpone it? LC: I don't think so. DC: Just court postponements...prosecutor... LC: He's really…off by the whole thing. DC: Now, as far as the defense is concerned, what experience have you had as far as defense attorneys are concerned? I know those are... Have youever had to pay a defense attorney? LC: Oh, yeah. DC: You've hired your own then? LC: Yeah. DC: Do you have your own now? LC: No. DC: I see. 24 LC: They appointed one. DC: He's appointed by the court. LC: Right DC: Ah, who is it that you have? LC: I don't know. I haven't seen him yet. DC: You don't know. When will you find out do you think? LC: I don't know; whenever he happens to get off his ass and get over here, then I'll find out. DC: Now, I guess he's paid by the county, is that correct? LC: Yes, he's paid by the state. DC: Mm, and o.k., can you, what now as far as police officers, you mentioned that you think they ought to do away with about half of them, but what kind of person should they hire? What kind... LC: Somebody that's level headed and doesn't blow up. One of these times a cop's going to walk up to me once, if I ever hit the street again, and I'm going to blow his head off. DC: What, how can they make that determination? I mean, what kinds of ... well educated or does that make any sense? LC: Well, something like that is should be and they should be, oh, have, they should give them an aptitude test, you know, and run them to a shrink. DC: Ah, ha. (Yes) 25 LC: Instead of just sticking a badge on them and letting them go out here and fire whatever they give them and then put them out there walking a beat or something like that; they think they're hot shit. DC: You know what they are doing now that might be of interest to you is the polygraph and they're running all through polygraph examinations. LC: Yeah, but, that don't always work. DC: No, but… DC: And that doesn't hold up in court. DC: No, but what I'm saying is before they even hire them. LC: Oh. DC: See. You'll find out what kind of person they really are and Bill Derbady, I don't know if you know, Bill Derbady? DC: Yeah, I know him real well. DC: Yeah. LC: Well, they call him Porky Pig. DC: Yeah. Bill's the one that runs the poly right now, Ed Hymus, he used to but he had a heart attack and so he's unable to run it, but Bill's handling it now. But they are running them all Through; all P.D. students. LC: It's about time they did something with them. 26 DC: Yeah, well, I think, I think they realize, of course they fired an officer, I understand the other day for brutality and they fired him and they found out what happened and that was it and there's been no trouble on the force for five years and they let him go. LC: Well, it's about time they did something like that. DC: I think they are real concerned about this problem and I think they're trying to upgrade it. You might be interested in knowing our program. We're promoting education and in fact they can go to Weber State College and have their tuition and fees paid and we try to get involved with Community relations more so. You know, they start becoming more concerned with the individual. LC: Mm. DC: The legislature is also thinking about making it mandatory for Judges and for police officers to spend time in jail, you know, maybe just one day but just to have the chance of seeing what it’s really like and… LC: And they'd be crying. I want out that's what they'd be saying. DC: So, it's probably, yeah, right, I'm sure they would, but at least it would give them an idea of what it's like. LC: If they come in here like this, you know, ole Butcher and them guys will treat them guys just like cake; they can eat anything they want. DC: Well, it's, but it still would give them a taste of being locked out. LC: Oh, true. 27 DC: Until you sit in the jail, it's Just like being in a room like this. If I sat in here with the door locked and know that I couldn't ge£ out of here for three or four hours, now that's a lot different than sitting here knowing that door's always open, I can always walk out. LC: Well, tell you what if you really want to experience it, go upstairs on twelve. DC: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I agree. I think everyone should and of course I spent a lot of time up here in the Weber County Jail, and you know working with the inmates and this video tape recording might help to…that together, and plus I've spent a lot of time up here and I've interviewed a lot of people and I know they go through hell. LC: Yeah, yeah and some of these idiots out here think it's fun. DC: Well, I, in a way I do. I think a lot of them have a lot of compassion with the people that are up here. LC: You don't see Charlie, you know Charlie pretty well then, huh? DC: I don't know Charlie too well. I, you know, I just talked to him a couple of times and that, but what's he like? Is he ah... LC: One minute he's a good guy and the next minute he's a God damn nigger. DC: Yeah. LC: He'll turn on you; he'd turn on you that quick. DC: Yeah, well, see I've got, I've got two cousins that, that are out in San Quintin right now and, you know, I have had communications from them, they tell me about their experiences there. I've had two other cousins that lived here in Ogden that have spent time in juvie. LC: Yeah. 28 DC: And Charlie knows them; you know, he knows them real well but and he's always treated them real fine so because he knows them probably…maybe… LC: Well, he knows me too. DC: Does he? LC: Yeah, knows my brother too, but he can still turn on you in a second. I don't care who you are. DC: Mm. Well, it's, you know I don't, I don't envy their job, I'll tell you, ah it's... LC: I want to ask you a question. Do you work over there with what, over there in that N.S. building? DC: You mean over with…and…? LC: Yeah. DC: No, I don’t work with them. LC: Is your office the same place? DC: NO, my office is over… LC: Oh, o.k. DC: But, I used to have an office right down stairs. You know, just as you go outside the door. LC: Yeah. DC: That used, to be my office there, and I go to lunch a lot with Captain…...and it use d to be Captain…now Is Chief of Police out in… And, you know, he and I used to be good friends; we still are. But and the reason I enjoy, I've enjoyed working with him is cause he's really given me a feel for the minority people LC: Mm, huh. (Yes) 29 DC: And he, you know he relates to them well and he's one of them. Although in a way he's not because you know he's also a police officer and he also is a middle class, you know, individual. But, he still has a lot of compassion for them. He's parents are poor, extremely poor. His brothers are poor. He's had a lot of relatives that've been in trouble with the law and so he can relate to them. He's given me a real feel for their problems and he's a real fine person. I think a lot of him; I really do and he's worked a lot of image of people that've had problems, marital problems, you know, Incest problems and he works with them on his own time and you have to respect that kind of person, most people don't... LC: Well, if you do me a, if you could do me a favor, go over and tell that guy you know that I want to talk to him. DC: Which one? LC: That… DC: Captain… He's no longer here with the Weber County Sheriff's Office. LC: He isn't? DC: No, he's the…Chief of Police now. LC: Or…I know… DC: Gary… He's the one that works investigation for the county sheriff’s office. He's an older fellow. LC: Yes. DC: And, yeah. LC: I want to talk to him. DC: What is it you want to talk to him about? 30 LC: I want to get that broad before I go to court in there and get her to tell the truth before I end up going to jail and then when I get out I'm going to kill her. DC: You know what you ought to do though is Bill Derbady would be the one you'd want. LC: Derbady, shit. DC: Because he could run her on a polygraph, see? That's what I would do. LC: Yeah, but a polygraph test doesn't hold up in court. DC: Well, ah, it can, no it's admissible in court if both the defense and the prosecution agree to it. LC: Why not? DC: You bet, and regardless of the polygraphist, you know, he can testify in court and tell what happened so ah, no it's, you know, it just depends if both agree to it but it's tricky too. LC: I'll bet you anything you want to bet that she won't take a polygraph test. DC: Yeah. Well, that's a problem too because you know they aren't, they have to be willing to take it. LC: Right. DC: You don't have to take it. LC: Right. DC: You have to be willing to, but of course that could be used as evidence against you too. LC: Mm. DC: You know, if a person’s not willing to then he's, the presumption is that, you know, maybe there is guilt or maybe... LC: Yeah, but the judges downstairs, they don't look at it that way. 31 DC: Well, course they, you know, we haven't had a polygraphist for about four or five years ... LC: O.K., well, then will you tell Derbady that I want to see him as you get to see him. DC: Sure, I’ll really lay it on to him. You bet. I'll be happy to. LC: Because I want something done about this before if I go to the joint over this slut as you want to call her or anything you want to call her, I mean it when I get out I'm going to blow her God damn head off. DC: Of course, I'm sure if you do go to the penitentiary, I certainly hope you don't because I know it's... LC: Well, I ain't worried about that part. DC: Yeah. LC: But, if I do, she’s gone, she'll get it. If I have to hunt her down myself or pay somebody to do it. DC: Well, what about any other, is there any other part of the system, now, you know, just for some reason, I think there is. You've got a lot more that you could tell me, you know, experiences that you've had and things that might be relevant, and I just feel like I haven't scratched the surface with you. Because you know really you've had a lot of experiences; you really have. LC: Yeah, I've been in, I've been in all kinds of pokies. DC: About how many jails would you say you've been in? Different jails besides Weber County. LC: Mmm. About six. DC: About six different jails. How, what's, you've been in California, Utah, ah... LC: I've been out here in Fruit Heights; I've been in Salt Lake, I've been in Arizona. DC: What's Fruit Heights? Where's that at? 32 LC: That's out here next to; it's in Davis County. DC: Do they have a jail out there? LC: You bet they do. DC: Is that right? Is that? I didn't know that. Doggone it, I didn't. Fruit Heights has a jail. I'll be darned. LC: Yeah. DC: What is it, just a one cell jail or something? LC: No, it's got different cells, you know, small but that's the best jail I’ve ever been in. DC: But it's a Davis County Jail, is that what it is? LC: Right. Now you sit there and you get treated like a man out there instead of a God damn prisoner. DC: Yeah. That's Farmington jail. LC: That's right. DC: Yeah. Right. How much time did you do out there? LC: Well, let's see, I did two days out there and then my grandfather came out and bailed me out. I went to court and beat that one. And then they came and picked me up here for no reason at all, you know, and threw me upstairs. DC: Mm. LC: Just for interrogations. DC: How long did you spend in jail that time? LC: Seventy-two hours. 33 DC: Mm. Got a good memory. LC: Well, if you've been in jail as much as I have well then you pretty well find out these things. DC: And you don't forget it easily, that's for sure. LC: No, you sure don't. DC: No. You know, I've heard quite a few people tell me the Davis County Jail's a good jail. LC: It is. It’s the best; it's the best jail they got for a small one. DC: What did you like about it? LC: The living quarters and the people out there mostly. The guard at the turn keys and stuff, you know, they ain't like these idiots here. They'll get hostile towards you and they treat you as a man instead of a prisoner. DC: You know what's ironical about that though, is that the turn keys out there are part time, you know part of the times they're a police officer right out in the field and then the other part time they're working the shift in the jail. LC: Right. But, they don't get smart with you. DC: Yeah. LC: They treat you just like a man. And these people up here don't know how to do that. DC: Well, see up here as you know they, this is all they do. LC: Yeah. DC: They don't work out in the field... 34 LC: You want me to tell you why because they got to have four walls around them cause they're scared they're going to get knocked off. DC: Yeah. Well, they, of course, a lot of them hire in now as nothing other than jailers, in other words a lot of them haven't even had police experience. LC: Right. DC: And they've changed it quite a bit up here; they've got a civil, civil officers now that aren't on civil service... LC: Like a Bob, that tried to keep Bob and what's his name... DC: It's most of them that have the, I think they wear the grey uniforms. LC: Yeah. DC: Yeah, right. And the rest of them like Butcher and Jackson and that they're, they used to work out in the field. LC: Yeah. DC: Couple years and then they… LC: You know why Jackson don't work out in the field anymore? DC: (No) LC: That guy's… DC: Oh, is that right? LC: Held level off the gun, you know, wouldn't shoot him. DC: (whistle) Is that right? 35 LC: Jackson ever pulled a gun on me, you best use it. DC: Well, he doesn't carry one now does he? LC: No. He's even, he's even scared to walk up and down the steps around here. DC: Mm. LC: Scared somebody's gonna knock him off. DC: Yeah, I guess, I guess after being beat up one time, I guess that'd make you rather paranoid. LC: It's o.k. He'd get again if he ain't careful. DC: Well, of course I've, you know I meant to ask you if you thought he's changed a lot, but you mentioned that you haven't seen him since you've been back in this time, so I really don't know how that's effected any. LC: No. DC: You know I would think that after having experienced like you had or like Butcher had that you know they'd be much more hostile than they ever were before. LC: Jackson, all he is, is just a little four-eyed punk and that's all he is and that's all he'll ever be. DC: What else can be done? Now, the penitentiary, what, do they have rehabilitative kinds of things out there? LC: Yeah, they teach mechanics, diesel mechanics, auto mechanics and all that kind of crap. DC: What'd you learn while you were there? LC: I wasn't out there. I haven't been out there yet. DC: I mean the federal penitentiary is the one I meant. 36 LC: Oh, federal penitentiary, yeah, they have head shrinkers out there and other grass. They teach you mostly discipline. The only time I went to the hole out there was when, for fighting. DC: Have you had a problem with fighting, do you think? LC: Yeah, I've had to fight for everything I ever got. DC: Just been your way of life then. LC: Yeah, just my life and George Fisher downstairs the other day says I got a problem. If he had to fight all his life, he got a problem, too. DC: Yeah, I, sometimes…fortunate you know is that a lot of people or what they are because of the way their environment you know or some people had gotten everything; they've got their…..the wealthy people have gotten it all and I think it's hard for those kind of people to understand how hard you have to fight if you don't have anything to begin with. LC: That's true. DC: You know, and that's one of our problems, no doubt, of course the problem I'm concerned about with is not that the thing I'm concerned about with is o.k. So now we know that's happened, what do we do for the person? How can we rehabilitate them? How can we bring him back into society as a productive citizen? And there just aren't easy answers to those kinds of questions. LC: Well, that’s like my first wife. I come home from work, I was working down here at… I was working my butt off. I come home from work and caught her in bed with my best buddy. DC: Mm. LC: Put them both in the hospital and come to jail and I don't think that's a bit fair. DC: Yeah, that's ah, now was that, that's when you divorced your wife or when… 37 LC: She divorced me. DC: Yeah, she, you caught her in bed and she divorced you. LC: Yeah, see, I busted all her ribs down one side her heart. I busted the guys Jaw, shoulders, and one leg. DC: Wow. LC: That's how mad I can get. DC: Well, they're lucky to be alive. LC: Well, I'm lucky to be sitting right here, right now. DC: Yeah, you'd be out on death row. You are; you're lucky. You don't hurt a person that badly without being lucky, you know, sometimes it just takes one blow to kill someone. LC: Since then I've seen her about three or four times and each time she sees me, she says if you'll leave your wife, I'll come back to you, but I don't want her back. DC: Is that right? LC: She's been married six times since then. DC: Oh, man! Sounds like she's got problems. LC: Yeah, and then they say I've got problems. DC: Wow, well, do you think, if you somehow luck out of this thing you know and… LC: No way. DC: No way, huh. Well, you never know what's going to happen that's… 38 LC: Well, if they drop the rape charge on me, it'll be, I'll still go up for possession and that'll be, oh, six months to a year. I'll do six months here and it ain't going to do no good and the first time one of them gets smart with me I'm going to wallop them. DC: Yeah. LC: I've just about had it right now with a bunch of these boys, ass holes. DC: Do you think, well, would you rather spend six months here in the jail or would you rather go out to the state prison for maybe, you know, a year and half-two years? LC: Much rather go out there. DC: Mm. LC: Because right here you're pulling hard time. It don't count, you know, until you, the minute you walk through that door out there, your time starts. DC: Yeah. LC: It don't start here; it's all dead time. DC: Course even when you go out to the prison you don't really know how long you're going to be there, do you? I mean say, usually it like one to ten; you know, five to ten, five to life. LC: Five to life, well, my brother, he got, he went to jail for the same thing and they dropped one charge and he got twenty to life and he did two years. Two years on parole. Two years parole and I think he' got something like three months left on parole right now. DC: They let him go to California then? LC: Yes, you can get a flyer; there's no sweat about the flyer… DC: Mm. But, of course he could’ve spent twenty years in Jail, right? 39 LC: Yeah. DC: In prison, I mean. LC: Right. DC: So but when he went out there he didn’t know that he was going to be out in two years. LC: That's right. You don't know how long you're going to be there. You might not even ever walk out. DC: Did you ever talk to him about prison life? LC: Yeah. DC: What did he tell you about it? What's it like out there? LC: He says it's shitty. DC: Is that right? LC: You gotta take so much shit. DC: Who do you take it from? LC: Oh, mostly inmates…you keep your nose clean out there and they'll stay away from you. First time you mess up, watch out. DC: Mm. Did he talk about the homosexual problem out there? Is It, did he say anything about-- LC: No. DC: He didn't? LC: They, I don't think they, they have enough guts to make a pass at him over there. DC: Yeah. He's probably pretty big like you are, I guess, huh? LC: No, it's not that he's pretty big; it's just that he knows what he's doing. 40 LC: Yeah. What about the drug situation out there? LC: I don't know. He don't take drugs. The only thing I've ever taken is speed and grass and that's it. DC: What about alcohol? Is that… LC: Oh, I love to drink. DC: Do you feel like that's a problem with you? LC: Yeah, because when I start drinking I get hostile. I agree with you. DC: Do you think many of, a lot of the crimes that you've committed; do you think it was when you were drinking? Did you have liquor under you? LC: Yeah. I used to have… DC: I've, you know I've talked to several people and everyone I've talked with so far, I don't think there's been an exception, they tell me that when they committed the majority of the crimes they either had been drinking, you know had a few drinks or else they were doing drugs. LC: Well, I've never had to worry about that drug problem. It's just the booze problem, I've got. I start drinking and I'm okay for a little while and all of a sudden I blow up. DC: Mm. How does it affect you being in jail now? I mean, you know, when a person's doing drugs or when they're drinking alcohol a lot and they start drying out it makes them… LC: It don't bother me. DC: It doesn't bother you at all? LC: (No) It don't bother me at all. I get nervous. DC: Yeah. 41 LC: Well, I, let's put it this way, I'm naturally nervous anyway. DC: Then I guess they don't have any meetings or anything like that up here, do they? LC: No. If they do I've never seen one. DC: What do you do up here? In your spare time? LC: Spare time! That's all I got. I sit there and look at four walls and some bars and some of that metal fence and go buggy. DC: Yeah. LC: Sit there and play cards or something like that and after a while that gets old. DC: Well, you know, it's ironical that people can live in cells together like that and not develop hostilities among themselves or do they? LC: Oh, yeah. The tension, the tension grows every day, but it's all over with, say like the tension was bad yesterday, real bad in fact but one guy left, you know, and it quieted down. DC: Mm. Well, I had a friend up here that helped me work on this video tape recording room and he works for the city now, Bob. He, he said some days he just, he didn't know if he was going to go mad or if he's gonna, you know, bust at somebody in the jaw or put his hand through the wall or… guess it can get pretty bad. LC: This Bob, was he an inmate up here. DC: Yes. Were's…? LC: No, that’s not his last name. I was trying to think of his last name but… Well… DC: I always just call him Bob. He's balding now. He's lost a lot of hair and he's get a big paunch going. He's maintenance around here. He comes up here sometimes. 42 LC: Oh, yeah, I know who you're talking about. Bob. DC: Yeah. LC: Yeah. DC: He, he's just one heck of a nice guy. I feel sorry for him. His wife left him not to long ago. LC: Yeah, she had to. DC: Bad breaks, yeah, bad shape probably. It’s, he's a nice guy; he really is. I got to know him pretty well. LC: Yeah. DC: But, anyway, what else about the system don't you like? What could be done? What do you think ought to be done? I mean if social, if there were social workers available to you or psychiatrists, would this help you, you know, would you make use of that kind of service or is it necessary? Do you think you need it? Do you think…? LC: Well, I've been told all my life I've got a psych, a psych, anyway problem and well I've heard enough I think I have got a problem because a normal person wouldn't blow up all the time. Like I can be sitting home with my wife and not have a drink or nothing and all of a sudden I just blow up like that. DC: Mm huh. Well, who do you think could be the most help then? You know most people never have enough guts to admit that they've got a problem and that's the biggest problem right there. LC: Yeah, well, I know that but you got a problem, you just got a problem. DC: Well, do you think you could be helped? In your…and if so what would you like…job. LC: Yeah, if I could get away from people for a while. 43 DC: You think that would help though course you still got to come back to them and live among them. LC: Well, that's true but see, when I was younger I've had the same problem all the way up to now and I used to just climb on an old horse, you know, I'd just go and come back three or four days later you know and I'd be okay. DC: It's good therapy, yeah. LC: You know, it's like my old Kirby said and that's what my grandpa and grandma told him that I'd just take off and I'd come back when I God damn good and ready. And he said, well, that's the best therapy there is. You get out and get away from people; think your own problems out; you can; nobody else can think them out for you. DC: That's right, that's right. You don't really think it'd do any good then to have the services of a psychiatrists or a social worker? LC: Well, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that it wouldn't but like when I was in the joint down in Levinworth, they, do you smoke? DC: No, thank you. Got an ash tray here? LC: {Text unreadable} DC: Okay. LC: I was seeing the head shrinker on the average of twice a week and it helped; it really did and then when I got out I just up one hind side of a horse and split. DC: Mm. LC: And. I was happy. I was fine until somebody…me and then I just blow a fuse. 44 DC: Well, I, you know, from what I gather from you, it, you don't feel like it really helps to be sitting there with four walls starring you in the face all time. LC: No, it sure don't. DC: As far as hostility is concerned, it just makes it worse. I can imagine it would. I imagine it would and that's, you know, I, that's why we got a, we've gotta start bringing rehabilitation programs into the…and… LC: See like sitting here talking to you, you know, before I come down I was just as nervous as a cat. Now, I've quieted myself down but if I was out there where I was free or something like that, you know, up there in the boondocks or way back in the hills, I'd be happy. DC: That's where we ought to be interviewing you. Go to the mountains... LC: I just, I just, you know, just I guess it's the atmosphere or something that does it but… DC: I think we all feel that way; you know, I like to get away from it. I, things were getting pretty bad with me there for a while and I went up fishing last night, you know, and come back and I feel great now. LC: That's what I, that's what I usually do. I get in an argument with my wife or something like that and I just up and split and go fishing or go out home and saddle a horse and go, come back and I'm okay, but I look at it this way, I know I;ve got a problem and I’m not scared to say it. DC: That takes guts. LC: But now, but now there's another problem there too if I can get help. DC: Like what problem’s that? LC: Oh, my hostilities and stuff, you know. 45 DC: Yeah. Yeah. LC: Right now I can sit here and all of a sudden I just blow up. DC: O.K. well, the idea is if, what you'd like to see happen even right now, okay, you know there's going to be a new jail built, but there's nothing you can do about that. LC: That's right. DC: That's not going to affect you right now. LC: That don't even bother me anymore. DC: So you're saying, that, what would help you the most right now is perhaps the services of someone that you could talk with when… LC: Yeah. DC: About these hostilities? LC: Yeah DC: About your problems. I guess that service just isn't available here, is it? LC: No, well, I tried telling Fisher once before that I got a problem and he just sit and laugh. Thinks it's funny. Well, I don't. DC: Well, I don't either. LC: Because the next, cause one of these days I'll be walking down the street and someone's getting smart with me, I'm just gonna pull out a gun and knock him. DC: Now you wouldn't want that to happen and society wouldn't want that to happen. LC: Yeah, but they just love to see it happen, ole Fisher would. 46 DC: Well, I'm sure he wouldn't love to see it happen if it were he so… LC: Ah, ha. DC: So he's, you know there, a thing I found out there are a lot of people in this system that sometimes you just have to, just close your ears to them, you know… LC: Well… DC: Because they, they're, some of them are as bad as they seem to be but most of them aren't. LC: Like up there with Judge Goul, you know on this last charge when I got put on probation, I asked for help up there and all he did is step behind that bench with a great big ole smile from ear to ear. That's it. DC: Mm. LC: Nothing happened. DC: It's hard for me to understand that kind of an attitude. LC: Well, he has. He's got a negative attitude. DC: Yeah, of course I've never… LC: Go up and meet him sometime. DC: I shouldn't, I've met him. I know him, and you know I can't say anything good about the man so I better not say anything. LC: Well, I did. I got right up there in front of, there was a whole courtroom full of people and asked him for help and he just sits back there and stretches, great big smile and everything else and he says well, we’ll put you on probation and that’s it. 47 DC: Mm. And so he put you on probation. LC: Yeah and he thinks that's gonna help. DC: Well, probation really doesn't do any good, does it? The only thing it does-- LC: The only thing it does is oh, is give you a sense, that you're still free and that's it. DC: Yeah. LC: And it keeps you out of trouble. That's the only thing it does DC: It lets you know that you have to keep your nose clean or else you'll end up in prison. LC: Right, that's right. DC: But that's about all it does, isn't it? LC: That's right, that's all. DC: They don't provide you with any counseling to speak of, do they? LC: No. DC: You know, we're changing that program now and we're starting to get into group therapy a lot more. LC: Well, I hope somebody does and they do it quick. DC: They are starting to do that and the problem has been that they've been carrying such heavy case loads and they don't have time to , at least you know that's the presumption when you've got ninety guys that you're working with. LC: Yeah. DC: It's pretty tough and that's the problem but it's got to be changed. It's just got to. 48 LC: Well, I'll tell you what, I'll level with you right now. I don't know the difference between right and wrong. I was never taught that…that anything about right or wrong. If I wanted to do it, why I just did it; if I didn’t want to do it, well, fine. DC: Think it really may stem then from your childhood? LC: Oh, yeah, part of it is if I didn't want to go to school, I didn't have to go to school. If I didn't want to do anything I didn't have to do it. And my grandfather, my grandparents raised me and my brothers. DC: I guess they're older, older people then and… LC: Yeah. And we just, he'd ground us or something like that and five minutes later we was on a horse and gone. DC: Oh. LC: But, i’m serious I don't know the difference between right and wrong. Like fighting, I've had to fight all my life. It ain't wrong. Can't see nothing wrong with that. Somebody crosses you, what's you gonna do, you gonna bust him. DC: Sure. I guess the only deterrence there is as far as you're concerned is that you know now that you can get in a fight, that means you have to come back to the jail. LC: Right. DC: Or else you go to state prison. LC: That's right. DC: And that's the only… LC: That still doesn't mean it's wrong. 49 DC: Yeah. LC: It took three, before I went in the service, it took three notices plus two FBI to come and get me. Because I figured that I didn't have to go. DC: Even though you got the notices, you just… LC: Even though I got the notices, I just didn't pay any attention to them, ripped them up and all that crap and then just turned around and just did mv own thing. DC: These were draft notices. LC: These were draft notices. DC: I see and so the FBI came and picked you up and… LC: That's right. DC: And took you down to be in… LC: They took me down. DC: I'll be darned, inducted into the army. LC: And then they turned around and I got down there and I told, I told that major I wasn't going to get on that plane and it took four to put me on that plane. DC: Is that right? LC: Right. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. DC: Yeah. They were forcing you to do something that you didn't want to do. LC: That's right. That's all, that's all, that's all the United States is doing, has done. They force people to do what they don't want to do. 50 DC: And so they don't want to do it, then they shouldn't have to. LC: That's right. I can't see anything wrong in that. DC: Well, now, how long did you actually last in the military without getting in trouble? LC: Six months. DC: Six months? LC: That's right. DC: And that's when… LC: Well, I was in trouble all the time. DC: Were you? LC: I had a stack in my 201 file of article fifteen as long as your arm. DC: Mm. What was the main source of the problem as you saw it you know when you were in the military? What, you know, was it just guys telling you what to do and…? LC: Well, it wasn't so much that, just the smart attitude some of them had. I've got a smart attitude too. DC: But was it usually superiors that you had trouble with, do you think? LC: My superior officers. DC: Superior, as far as, you know, the guys that were inducted with you, you didn't really have any problems? 51 LC: No, I didn't have any trouble with them. I just, at night, I just get out of the barracks, go for a walk or something like that and I'd be okay. The next day one of my superior officers would walk up to me and I'd just blow up. DC: Mm. LC: {Text unreadable} DC: I guess in the military that just doesn't go, does it? LC: No, it don't. DC: Yeah. LC: Now, I can't, they induct you, you don't want to go so they come and force you. I could care less, I could care less if they, if a war started right now. Let them fight, I don't care. DC: Well, when you were sent to the federal penitentiary was the idea that you had a certain amount of time to serve out. LC: …serve four years they busted it down to eighteen months. DC: I see, so you had four years just on the charge or four years to complete your military. LC: No, that was the charge, four years on the charge. DC: I see. LC: It went to Washington and they busted it down to eighteen months and I got out in eighteen months. DC: How, how seriously hurt was the fellow that you beat up? LC: Broke his jaw and his collar bone. 52 DC: Wow. What do you, what's your perception of the military, you know, that's how do you feel about the military? Do you feel like it's, they're forcing people to do things that they don't want to do? LC: That's right, they don't want to do, that's right. DC: And, of course now, they're starting, I guess they're… LC: They abolished the draft. DC: Yeah, they abolished that and-- LC: That's good. That's the best thing that ever happened to them, only it come five years too late. DC: Course they, they haven't really abolished it all together, have they? Because they just really changed it, I think. They've got this lottery system and you know, it means that no one's exempt from the draft. I don't think they really, really— LC: I am. DC: Yeah. LC: I got a bad conduct discharge at home to prove it. DC: Right. I'm just, actually anyone's: that's been sentenced to prison is exempt militarily. LC: Same goes with a felony. DC: With a felony against them, right. Yeah, unless the charge is dropped and then they induct them, you know, based on— LC: Right, but I don't think that's fair. DC: No. LC: Now, I know a lot of, and I know a half a million other people that agree with me. 53 DC: I guess it's done every once in a while too, isn't it? LC: Yeah. They get these suckers that'll go in for three or four years and that still ain’t enough for Uncle Sam, he wants to take them all over there to Vietnam and get them killed. DC: Mm. So you think, what else did you, what'd you like about the, or what'd you dislike about the police, you know, military police? I guess, you know, I don't know much about their organization but… LC: What'd I think about them? DC: Ah, ha. LC: They're just like they are on the outside, pigs. DC: They function about approximately the same way then? LC: Approximately, only they, they take their orders from somebody higher than them. Like Captain Ryan was only a captain in there, in the service he'd be, he'd be just a peon to a colonel or major or something like that. DC: Right. Yeah, right. I guess Chief Jacobson; he really, he's, you know got the ultimate say, so as far as the police department isconcerned. LC: True. DC: And Sheriff Ryan has the ultimate say so as far as the-- LC: Right, but if somebody moved in over them, they'd be just peons. DC: Yeah. They just take it from the superior. LC: That's right. 54 DC: Mm. Well, can you think of anything else Lynn that, that we haven't covered that would be of interest. Do you have any other suggestions as far as the system is concerned? How we can upgrade it? That's what we want to do, that's my primary objective, is to upgrade the system and get it functioning the way it ought to be. It's a lot of poor things about our system and we're starting to do something about it finally. LC: Yeah. I guess so, if you say so. DC: (Laugh.) LC: I don't know that much about it. All I know is that if there should be any chance at all of beating these two charges, they'll never see me again unless they want to dig me out of... DC: Well, I, you know, the problem is, you know, I’ve… a lot of times I've talked to a lot of people the last few years and I've had almost every, I'd say 99% of them, tell me, now this is it and I guess probably about 8O% of that 99% have come right back and I've seen them tip here again. LC: Come right back. DC: You know to the system, they-- LC: The only reason I can't leave is because I've got a probation officer, and that's the only reason and he won't let me go. DC: Yeah. LC: And that's the only reason; otherwise I'd a been gone a long time ago. DC: Do you think if you get out, out in society again though, let's say you do luck out on these charges then if you get employed and busy and were occupied that would make a difference? 55 LC: Yeah, that would make a difference to an extent but I'd still have to get away from people for a while. DC: Mm. LC: Cause I hate people with a passion. Sometimes I can't even stand my own wife or my daughter. DC: How many children do you have? LC: One. DC: You have one. How old is she? LC: She's a year old. DC: Oh. Well, what do you think the reason is for that? Is there a specific reason that you'd be able to, I know you've probably thought about it a lot. LC: Oh, I have. I've thought about it a heck of a lot. Ask for help and all they do is sit there and laugh at you. DC: Mm. In other words, you feel like you've been asking for help and no one's done anything about it. LC: Well, I've asked for help, I've asked for help for two years on it and all they do is stand back and laugh. DC: Did you ever contact Red Potter? LC: I don't even know him. DC: Red Potter's the director of the Weber County Mental Health Center. LC: I don't even know where that's at. 56 DC: Don't you? It's, you know where the Welfare Department is? LC: Don't even know where that’s at. DC: It's on Washington Blvd. about 31st street. It's a one way street there, trying, it's Keisle, not Keasle; anyway it's about on 31st street and it's a one way street and it's right by the welfare department — mental health center then the welfare department, they're right there together and Red has got some fantastic programs going. He's got this drug crisis center. We've got another program that we're trying to get off the ground, it's called behavior modification of chronic alcoholic offenders and all it is just a halfway home for fellows who have a chronic alcohol problem and try and get them rehabilitated. LC: Is there any bars? DC: Pardon. LC: Is there any bars? DC: No bars, none whatsoever. LC: (whistle) DC: None whatsoever. LC: I'd like to get in something like that. DC: See this is the same thing we have out here on 33rd, 3370 Washington Blvd. It's a halfway home for felons. LC: I know where that's at because I just live up the street from it. DC: Well, see, that's the same thing except what we're doing is we’re not putting alcoholics in that one for the most part, some of them have drinking problems, you know, and an alcoholic has a 57 drinking problem certainly but you know those who can do without liquor. So there are two different kinds of programs but that one we've got off the ground. This one I'm talking about we've haven't got off the ground yet but it looks like we will about January. But once again it cost money. It’s hard to convince people that these kinds of programs are going to work and the only chance we've got of making it is if the guys who are sent to them make it work and they play it straight. LC: That's right. DC: And so they're either going to make it or break it and if they make it, then it's going to mean a lot to a lot of people and a lot of guys aren't have going to have to go out to the state pen, that would have gone. LC: That's right. DC: We’ve got about seven or eight there now that would have gone out there sure as shooting. So, and at the same time, they've got someone there they can talk to about their problems. Oh, people who are— LC: That's what I need, someone that I can talk to, talk to about my problems too. It'll never happen so I ain't going to worry about it. DC: Well, don't be too certain, don't be too certain. LC: Well, George Fisher, he says he's gonna put it into the judge that they send me to parole for a while, see if that does anything, if it does fine, if it don't, well fine. DC: I interviewed a fellow the other day that had been out there. He spent about six months and he said when they let him go he was furious because…thought it really helped him. 58 LC: Well, if I could get into something like that instead of going to the joint, I'll stay out there cause as long as I got somebody I can talk to, you know, that won't blow up, get smart with me, I'm fine. DC: Yeah. LC: Until I can beat what I've got. DC: Well, I agree with you, I think, I think you've come half way already though, you recognize you have a problem. LC: Well, it took me oh, about twenty-four years to find it out. DC: Well, I think that's great and you know if George is gonna recommend that, you know that'll go a long way in making the decision and especially if you could get… LC: Yeah, but, he just, he just wants me off the street, that's all he wants me, just off the street. DC: Yeah. LC: We don't care where they put me just as long as they get me off the street. DC: Course the thing he realizes is that if you go out to the state penitentiary, you'll probably be there two years and you'll be back on the street again. LC: Right. DC: Still with the same problem you have now. LC: Right and if I don't get help quick, I'm going to kill somebody by that time. DC: Well, that's something I hope you'll never do under any circumstance, but I know you feel like you need help. For what good it'll do, I'll make a commitment to you and tell you that I'll do my best to try and get something done. 59 LC: Okay, if you want to do something, you get a head shrinker up here, go over and talk to…over there and see if he'll get one here. DC: I'll talk to, I'll go to even one better; I'll talk to Red Potter. Red carries a lot of weight and— LC: Okay. DC: Red was putting on group therapy sessions up here and then because they ran out of room, they couldn't, you know, there was some problems. LC: Oh, that group therapy things they had over going over here. DC: Yeah. Right. LC: No, I can't, I can't talk with a bunch of people. DC: Yeah, well, I won't say that, that's…You won't have to go to that, I'm not saying that. But, I'm just saying he's the one that coordinated that. He's the one that was responsible for that so Red can do anything he wants to do. He's that kind of guy; he's just doing fantastic things. LC: Oh, yeah. DC: And you get… LC: I'd like to talk to him alone. DC: Well, he's one heck of a nice guy. LC: Because if I don't get help quick, I'm going to hurt somebody next time; I mean really hurt them. DC: Well, let me do, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be too optimistic, but you know usually I get done what I want to get done and I'll promise you I'll try. LC: Okay. 60 DC: I promise you that, okay? LC: Yeah. DC: And it's the least I can do for you spending some time with me. LC: Oh, that's okay. I've got all kinds of time. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I know I need it. DC: Well, I promise you, Lynn, that I'll try. LC: I know I need it, need it and I sure would appreciate it if I could get help before I really hurt somebody. DC: I promise you I'll try, okay. Can you think of anything else that we've missed, Lynn, is there anything about the system that you want to comment on that you've missed? LC: Yeah, it's the federal end of it though. DC: Okay, go ahead, shoot away. LC: I think that they're all a bunch of idiots up there too, and so does a lot of other people. DC: Now, this is the federal penitentiary? LC: No, this is, well, it's the federal penitentiary and it's the boys in Washington. DC: Yeah. LC: They could straighten, they could straighten their's up a lot too. Open up more jobs, for one thing, for people. DC: You know one thing they've just done; I don’t know if you're aware of it or not, is for veterans-- LC: I'm not on the veteran status. 61 DC: Yeah, but they, they have opened up jobs now and they're, I think they're hiring something like fourteen veterans here in Weber County alone and the feds are flipping the bill for it. It's Nixon's move, you know, Nixon. LC: Yeah, but that isn't it, it's just that you've got oh, man, fifty million people out of work and all them guys are doing is sitting up there just drawing that bread, just you know, and they've got it, they've got it up there, but what's the smaller person, people going to do? I mean they're just too tight to get off of it. Like this place you want to open up you know, I'm not saying that you're going to get it and I'm not going to say you're not going to get it, but you're gonna have to fight what you get it. DC: Yeah, we'll get it. We'll get it. LC: Well, I hope you do. DC: But it’s going to be a fight like you say. LC: That’s right. DC: It's not easy. LC: That's right. DC: It's not. It took everything we had to get that half way home on 33rd street. LC: Well, that's like the guy upstairs, he was, he was on the run from the penitentiary. He'd been gone I guess six years and they stopped him out here, you know, or I think he said they caught him up here, up here in the hills you know. He's happy; he's just like I am; he's happy being away from people and they bring him back and they stick him right up there. He's going nuts. He wasn't hurting nobody back there but yet they can turn right straight around and give him more time, and all that's going to do is make it worse. 62 DC: Yeah. LC: Been gone six years. DC: Six years in the penitentiary, huh? LC: Six years in the penitentiary and he escaped. DC: Is that what they've got him on up here too? LC: Yeah, escape. DC: Huh. LC: And he, he was happy. I've talked to him a lot. He's, he's happy up there in the hills, way back in the hills as far as he can get away from people and everything. All he's got a horse, a gun and a knife and that's it and he's just as happy as can be, and yet they bring him down here and stick him right back in that same place. DC: How did they get him? LC: Huh? DC: How did they get him in the first place? LC: Oh, a federal game warden seen him. DC: Oh. LC: And they come up after him. DC: How'd he live up there? Just shoot a deer once in awhile for food or something like that? LC: Just live off of the land. DC: Yeah. 63 LC: There's nothing wrong with that but then they come back and they lock him they lock him up back up in here, and I'm not kidding you, he's going nuts. He'd climb a tree. That's all he can talk about is if they send him back to the joint, he's going to split again. This time they're going to have hell catching him. When it comes to that, if I can't get help with my problems and stuff comes to that, I'll go too, just split. Because I know they're going to have hell catching him. DC: Yeah, I wonder sometimes if our prisons we don’t turn, you know, so-so criminals into professional criminals and sometimes they turn into addicts, because drugs are available out there apparently. LC: Shoot, there's more drugs out there than there is on the street. DC: Yeah, yeah, that's what I've heard. That's what a lot of people, ex-cons have told me. It's really bad, and I guess homosexuality does run quite rampant, especially for the young guys that go out there. Guys that can't handle themselves. It's a real problem. LC: Well, I know I'm going to end up fighting. I know that for a fact. I'll tell you what, the first one that makes a pass at me, I'll put him in the hospital. I'll kill him. DC: Yeah. LC: Now, that's what I want to get away from because you kill somebody out there and they just add more time, stacking up. DC: Yeah, that’s now days anyone…kill anyone and that’s it man. LC: There's a guy, there's a guy upstairs who shot his wife, probably read it in the paper. He walked into the bar with a .22 pistol and shot her. DC: Mm, I, where was it at? Around here? Oh, yeah, it's, yeah, okay, this is, sure… 64 LC: …upstairs. DC: Sure, he's a Mexican American, LC: Yeah. DC: Right, yeah. LC: He’s upstairs... DC: Is that right? LC: Yeah, they're shooting for murder one, but they'll bust it, drop it down to murder two and he'll do about oh, maybe ten years and he'll be out, free again. DC: Yeah. LC: And that's good, but I can't see, I can't see the case, I can't see it if I can't get help, why should they give him help? DC: Yeah, well, you're probably right, he probably will get murder two and-- LC: Because if they find out that they can't run one charge, they don’t drop it. They'll bust, they'll bust it down one. DC: Compromise then? LC: Yeah. DC: Compromise between the defense and the prosecutor. LC: Right and then they'll get him to plead guilty and stuff like that and then he’s hung himself. DC: Have you, have you had this happen to you in other cases? LC: Yeah. 65 DC: Well, then you've been charged with something? LC: They can't prove it so they bust it down. DC: Yeah. LC: Yeah. DC: Mm. LC: That happened twice. DC: Bargaining, huh? That's-- LC: Ah, ha and then the D.A., the D.A. on this last charge, they rise said that they'd give me two months in jail and no probation or nothing if I'd, if I'd plead guilty to it you know and the son of a bitch double crossed me. DC: Is that right? LC: God damn right and he give me 36 days in jail and I spent that and when I got out I had a probation officer. DC: Mm. LC: And there's another thing they can do; they can get that, that idiot up there out of office cause he's crooked. He's just as crooked as can be. DC: Which one? Where's that at? LC: Up there, the D.A. DC: Oh, the District Attorney, oh you, now see you mean the county attorney? LC: I mean, yeah, the county attorney. 66 DC: County attorney, Bob Newy is the county attorney. LC: Yeah, but he's just as crooked as can be. DC: Yeah, in what way? LC: Well, he'll make a deal with you, you know, and then he'll just add what he thinks goes in there after you've already pled guilty to it and you can't back on it. DC: Huh. Now is it he or is it his deputy that does it? He has about three or four people that work… LC: I don't know who it is, but…whatever. DC: I see. LC: They can go in there and they make a deal, then they turn back around and they just add, just keep adding to it. I got probation officer for… DC: Mm. Course isn't it the courts that makes the final disposition. I mean isn't that just a recommendation from the prosecutor? LC: No, cause right there he made that deal right in front of that judge and the judge…what's going on and he got the-- DC: But, he, he recommended to the court that probation be added and you see that wasn't the deal that was made. LC: …made between him and I. DC: I see. LC: Next time I before I plead guilty I'm going to get me a written consent that what's going to happen is what's going to happen and then he backs out of it and I'll have his ass. I'll have him right by the short hair…on… And that's another way they can straighten it up. 67 DC: Do away with this bargaining and-- LC: Yeah, do away with this bargaining and all that crap cause his bargaining ain't gonna get it very much longer. DC: Yeah, I think they're going to change this, ah, what's happening, ah, they're, they're redoing the criminal code. You've got a criminal code. They've got a revision committee and a friend of mine Ben Pearson, the county attorney in…County is heading that out. What they're doing is they're saying, okay, when you commit a felony, there's first degree, second degree and third degree felony. LC: Now, it's just first, it's just first and second. DC: Right and they're going to break it down. If you commit, say you commit a grand larceny charge, see then, instead of saying okay, well, you know one kind of grand larceny is different than another kind. LC: Right. DC: And so they're going to say, okay, first degree, second degree, third degree grand larceny charge, and then they'll give a prescribed sentence instead of saying okay it's going to be six months, well say one year to, one to ten. You know, you get one to ten, that's not unusual; they'll say not it's two to five which means that you have to spend two years in prison. LC: Right. DC: And then, at that time on good behavior and everything you'll be up for probation. Automatic thing so you know exactly how much time you're going to spend. LC: Right. 68 DC: But if you don't play it cool and you cause trouble while you're in prison for it, it could go as many as five years for you see. LC: Right. DC: How do you feel about that? LC: Well, I don't like that part of it. DC: You'd rather-- LC: The two, the two, the two to five's okay, but after they cut you loose, the state laws read that after you've done your five, your two to five or one to five that you still got two years parole, you got a parole officer and that, that just ain't getting it. That's a state law. DC: You know, you think then that after the person serves their two years then he no longer should be supervised. LC: Right. They shouldn't, they shouldn't be supervised. They should be able to if they want to get out of the state; they shouldn't have to walk up and ask some guy that puts his pants on the same way you do in the mornings and I do and everybody else does, and ask him for permission to leave after you already pulled your stretched. DC: Do you feel, though, that there are some cases where maybe someone needs the supervision, you know, they need, need to be helped making the transition? LC: Well… DC: See, that's why we got this half-way home going because we felt like, you know some people need more than just probation supervision. They need a place. 69 LC: Oh, yeah, there's, there's a great, there's a lot, there's that on both sides. Okay, a man comes out of the joint and the first thing he does, he has to come right down here and register that he's out. Then he has to go right over here and fill out a report and I don't think that's fair, the report bit, after he's already pulled his time, he's got to come back here and he's supervised by… DC: I see. You don't think, that should done away with. LC: That should be done away with because, well, like probation, probation's helped, well, that's, that's just me, it's helped me a lot. But I didn't pull any time down there so that's fine, but when them guys come back and pull their time now and come back down here, they register downstairs and then they have to go down there and they're under supervision for two to four years. DC: Yeah. This is of course; parole is what it's called. LC: Right, and I don't think that's fair. If they're going to cut him loose, they're going to cut him loose altogether. DC: Yeah. LC: If he messes up, that's his problem. DC: Well, what if they were made to change the system a little bit so that the primary responsibility of probation and parole would be to give the guy a job, help him, you know, make the transition back into Society; maybe he's got other problems to work out like, you know, maybe he needs to find a place to stay and he helps him do that. LC: Why, isn't that the half-way house isn't it? DC: Yeah, but I mean we can't, you can't put everybody out there see that, this only holds twenty guys. 70 LC: That's true. DC: And we've got a heck of a lot more ex-cons, you know, parolees in this area than that, and so what I'm saying is, instead of having just, you know, you go up there and write, write up a mickey mouse report and tell them what you're doing, if they were to really help you and only help you get a job because, see, a lot of guys, they get out of prison, they don't have a job. LC: That's right. DC: And they have, they saved up money because maybe they worked at it, but when they run out of money, what happens then if they don't have a job? It's obvious. LC: Yeah, they get it, they get it some way. DC: Sure. LC: Why can't they have a place up here like the employment office? Run by ex-cons, you know so they know what they're dealing with. Say a bunch of these idiots, idiots has never been in jail or anything like that. DC: Yeah, that's an excellent recommendation, excellent. What else? LC: Just, well, I don't mean just run by ex-cons, you know, none of this crap of having anybody over them, you know. Why don't, and they're there to help another ex-con find a job. DC: Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder, I would imagine this has been done elsewhere. Now, I know, I know that in a couple states, New York, they, they've done this, they've used what we call paraprofessionals are people who have been through the system. LC: Right. DC: And have them go out and try and get jobs. 71 LC: But, you get, you get a guy, say like you go over here to the unemployment office and you just got out of the joint, you know, you fill out this report you know and they say he's going to look at you funny that you've been in the joint and he's gonna do, he's gonna sit there and he says well, I don't know if he's fit for this job or if he's fit for that job or for some other job. So you get a con in there and everybody's equal. DC: That's right. LC: And just have it just a place where cons can go to find, to find them a job. DC: This would be great. This would be great and then have that probation officer working very closely with, with them out there. LC: That's fine. I mean I could care less how it goes, but I don't think it will go that far myself. DC: Yeah, they may not have to... LC: That would, that would really, really help out the guys that's just coming out, you know and the guys that are going in. DC: You bet. LC: Because, well if they set an office up in Salt Lake either or here, it don't matter where that some place where a con, you know, if you want to talk to somebody or something like that, he could talk with another con that's already been through it. He gave a job through a con. But, you can't get a job over here at the unemployment office or anywhere if you've been in the joint. You write that down there and they're going to look at you like oh, boy, we got another one aint't going to stay around long. 72 DC: Yeah, yeah. Well. I guess this is a real problem too because a lot of times I talked to one fellow the other day. I think he's had about four different jobs in the last six or seven months and he just, just unable to hold a job and it's a problem. LC: Well, that’s his fault. DC: Yeah, well, I guess it's people like him who give all ex-cons bad names. LC: Yeah. DC: That's what happens. LC: One, one, one kid gets out and messes up and just messes up for everybody else. DC: Right, yeah, it shouldn't and that's the hard thing, that's the hard thing to face. But, anyway, this is an idea, you know, of getting, getting three or four or whatever it takes ex-cons and setting them right up in employment security and then they'd have all the records available of the jobs that are, you know, open. LC: That's right. DC: And of course they would have a personal vendetta to carry out because they'd want to help the guy, you know. LC: That's right. They've been through it. They know what… DC: Yeah. LC: They know what the score is on the outside too. DC: Right. That's a good suggestion. LC: Because it, it is. I mean it's hard trying to find a job with ex-con wrote all over you. 73 DC: Well, I interviewed these guys down at the halfway home and every one of them that has a job down there tell me that they didn't tell them that they were an ex-con. They just— LC: Yeah, but on most of these, on most of these you get out there, you know, and it says how many times you been arrested? You ever been in an institution and stuff like that? If that ain't an institution, I don't know what is. DC: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah they, they're supposed to put it down; I don't know what they put down on that. I didn't ask them that but-- LC: Well, they're boss finds out about it, they're going to be looking for another job. DC: That's right. It happens all the time. LC: And that way-- DC: Unless they've proved themselves, see, a lot of times they can prove themselves. LC: Well, yeah, but if the con, you know, if it goes through a place like that you know, they already know that they've been, they've been in the joint and they want a fresh start. They can't get it; they can't get it from that place over here. DC: You mean the adult halfway home. LC: No. DC: LC: I mean over here at this employment security office here. DC: Yeah. Yeah, it'd be interesting to find out what percentage of the ex-cons actually gets jobs through employment security. Yeah, that might be something to look into too. 74 LC: Because I'll, well, I'll bet you anything you want to bet that there ain't very many of them that go through there and get a job. DC: Yeah. LC: Very, very few of them. DC: Mm. I'll have to look into that. That's, that's interesting. It really is. Well, Lynn, can you think of anything else that we haven't covered? LC: No. DC: Have I exhausted you? LC: No. I got nothing but time. DC: What I'll do Lynn is, I'll provide you as I mentioned before, I'll provide you with a copy of the transcription. We'll actually transcribe it. Now, it might take two or three, four weeks, something like that. LC: I'll be here. DC: Okay, and I'll bring you a copy and you'll go through it for me and… LC: Yeah. DC: Okay, beautiful. Lynn, I promise you I I'll do what I can, okay. LC: Well, if you can get that… 75