Oral History Program Glen “Dutch” Van Leeuwen Interviewed by Adam Rosenberg 8 March 2009 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Glen “Dutch” Van Leeuwen Interviewed by Adam Rosenberg 8 March 2009 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Van Leeuwen, Glen “Dutch”, an oral history by Adam Rosenberg, 8 March 2009, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Glen “Dutch” Van Leeuwen. The interview was conducted on March 8, 2009, by Adam Rosenberg. Van Leeuwen discusses jazz music and his involvement in music. AR: Oh really? DV: The jazz in Ogden. He was writing jazz in. He's over Old Timers Jazz in Utah. Yeah, Jazz in Utah is what he's writing, but he's got it broken down in chapters like the Jazz in Ogden, Jazz in Salt Lake, and various places. AR: Oh really? Oh. DV: Yeah. I don't know if you know, but there were some very famous people right here in Ogden when you go back in the thirties. Red Nichols... Have you ever heard of him? They made a movie of him, you know. AR: I have, yeah. DV: He was located here in Ogden. AR: Really? DV: Red Nichols and His Five Pennies. AR: Oh wow. DV: And uh, he took lessons from a fellow named, uh, let's see what was his name? Prentis was his name. Al Agee. He had a son named Prentis, played fine trumpet. Al played trumpet also, but Al taught Red Nichols how to play. Then he had the Railroad Band here in Ogden for years, played all the rodeos and 24th of July Day March and all that. And I played in that a couple of years when I got out of the service. AR: Oh. 1 DV: When I was in I guess the eighth or ninth grade, eighth grade I was playing clarinet and playing in the band with Louis. AR: Really? DV: Delmore Dixon had a tremendous band for junior high. He had a better band than Ogden High, but he was after me to play string bass, because they had, the school owned one bass, and uh, they didn't have anybody to play it. Now when I started there, there was a guy two or three years older than me playing it, then he went on to Ogden High, and I guess he thought I was good enough to learn that thing. He didn't know how to teach it. And I didn't know anybody around here that did. So I refused. So when parent/teacher's meeting when my parents were there, he talked to them and says, "I want him to play bass. I'm gonna send it home with a book to learn from and uh, you get him to do it." So I was very upset about it. And uh, took it home and started learning some notes and fingering and then, I still don't have a legitimate style to think of. I never had formal training. AR: Right. DV: So but anyway, I uh, finally there was two or three of my friends that were in the band and were pretty good musicians. We were all just kids, but we bought some Jack Mason arrangements. We used to be able to buy an arrangement for a twelve-piece band down at Gunn Brother's Music Store for like two dollars or something like that. AR: Wow. DV: So we could...and none of us had any money then, but anyway we got enough money together to buy about three arrangements, and we just played those three over and over again. Well, finally it was during the war, so we did get a few jobs with our few tunes. But 2 it all helped. We got the, everybody got playing better and we found out and there were some guys in our group that blossomed. We found this one guy, Don Green was his name. He could play fine trumpet. He had a lip vibrato and he could improvise like you won't believe. Like these big old pros, you know in those days. Okay, this was back in I guess probably '41, something like that. Well anyway, uh we finally got a pretty good book so we had a lot of arrangements. Well then we would, we'd have a rehearsal and after the rehearsal we'd go up to White City and listen to that band up there, see. And they got used to seeing us there. They played Wednesday, Friday, and Saturdays. So they got used to seeing us up there and we got to call George Turnquist by name. He was the band leader. And uh, so we asked ... One of the guys asked him if we could set in. He says, "Well I don't know". He says, "Can you guys play these arrangements?" We said, "Well we have a little band. We're playing these same arrangements". So he let us set in. And then he asked us, Don Green, he says, "Do you want..." I can't think of the lead trumpet player they had. Sammy Morrison played fine trumpet. And he said, "Do you want Sammy to take the trumpet solos?" And Don says, "No I can take ‘em." So we all got up there and played ... He let us play about three or four tunes. He let us call the tunes. Before the next two years was up, every one of us ended up in that band. That's where I got started, you know? AR: Yeah. DV: Now if you want to go back before that, there's was a charity night that I worked in the fender shop when I was just a kid ... sanded fenders and that... He had the band of the White City before that. Then there was a guy before that. His name was Biknapp, a drummer. He had a band at the White City. Then it goes back. There were quite a few 3 bands over the years. And I remember the White City when I was just a little kid six years old because they used to have dances that give away automobiles and things like that, you know. And I remember my neighbor, I was living out here in Harrisville, and my neighbor came driving by in a new car and he'd won at the White City. So I don't know what the bands were then, because I wasn't old enough to even get in those places. But that's how we got started. So I got playing in this White City Band and I'd been in there two years and all us young guys were getting drafted and going in the service, and I went in. So then I ended up on an aircraft carrier in the South Pacific and got in a... They had a band aboard the aircraft carrier and uh, so I played... It wasn't rated musicians like the big carriers. That was on an escort carrier. And uh, we had musicians in there, and a few of them were really good and then a few of them were pretty bad, but anyway, I played a sax. They didn't have a bass fiddle. They said they was gonna get one. About the time they got that bass fiddle was when the war had ended and the guys were getting discharged. But I ended up owning that bass fiddle. AR: Really? DV: Yeah because it came in through Red Cross supplies. It wasn't federal money. I had several instances like that they gave away. I think they gave me an alto saxophone, a King Zephyr and that bass. So I brought it home and I already had the bass at home that I'd been playing with the White City, so I had two basses. So I turned them both in and bought this one. Now I don't know if you know what's unique about this one. Look at it close. Look at the strings. AR: Is it uh, obviously they're fretless, but is it the strings are all metal? DV: Well they are now. When I started playing they were all gut. 4 AR: Oh really? Cat gut huh? DV: That's a five string. AR: Oh duh. I was gonna say that. You play five, you know. Does everybody play five string? DV: No they're all four. AR: Okay yeah. DV: I try to play a four now and I get all hung up. AR: Really? DV: But I bought this in 1946. I got out of the service in, uh, when was it, in September of 1946 and started at Weber College and I bought this in September of '46 at Pantone Music. I don't know if you remember that. That was on 29th and Washington on the west side of the street. And I took clarinet lessons from Mike Pantone. Fine clarinetist. But that's how I got going and from there on, I went to Phoenix, Arizona. I graduated from Weber in '48 and then I went down to Arizona and got into some bands there. A couple of big bands and then played in the combos. Then I played with some guys there that ended up really being something. Pete Jolly. I don't know if you ever heard of him. Very fine pianist. He just died. He was a lot younger than me, because I was twenty-one when I moved down there and he was fifteen. And he was playing his butt off then, you know. AR: Really? DV: Then the guitar player, Howard Roberts. He ended up going to the west coast and playing to make Monarch Recordings. Very fine. Then there was a guy named Mickey McMahon and if you look at the old Lawrence Welk show, the trumpet player, the guy that has no hair, big tall guy. That's Mickey. AR: Really? 5 DV: Well before he ended up with Lawrence Welk, and that's where he finished is with Lawrence Welk, but he played with the Les Brown Band. And I don't know if you ever heard of Les Brown, one of the finest. AR: Yeah. DV: And so. And there are two or three other guys on that band that I knew when I was in Phoenix. They came through here and played at Lagoon and I had them all over to my house and took them all up water skiing in my boat. That was years ago. That is when my son was eight years old and he was learning to play guitar. And he's a fine musician, but he quit. Because I talked him out of majoring in music because I said there's really no big future. You want to have that as a sideline and have fun with it, but don't try to make a living at it, unless you're number one in the country and a recording artist or something. You don't even make good money in the symphony. You know, you can't make a living there. You gotta have another job. And either that or you're gonna teach school and you're gonna have a bunch of students, which would probably drive you crazy after a while cause I tried it. AR: Oh really? DV: Yeah, so anyway. That's how that went on. Then uh when I moved back from Phoenix, well I went to Arizona State. AR: Oh okay. DV: Tempe. And I was playing. One of the guys I went to school with there was a trumpet player and piano player and I played in some combos with him and I played with Mickey and Pete Jolly the last year I was there. He and I just played bass and piano. AR: Really? 6 DV: Yeah in a club, nice club. And the hours were good. I first went down there and played in the club on Main Street there called the, the, what was it? I can't even think of the name of it, but anyway I played in this club trio, bass, piano, and guitar, and a good guitar man. He taught me a lot. But I played there for better than a year from just when I started down there, but I was working a day job too. And I end up with a nervous breakdown, double pneumonia, and everything else trying to make a living. But anyway I finally came back here and got in with the government and did real good. I set up for a, I don't know if they still have the BSL degree at Weber College? That's a Bachelor of Science and logistics? That was a course set up to train people for Hill Air Force Base, logistics supporting the airplanes and missiles with spare parts is what it was. AR: Oh really? DV: There are a lot of computer programs to help do that. They have to have some managers that know what they're doing. Well they all had to learn it through osmosis until they got this course going. And I helped develop three of the courses, got them accredited with the Northwest Accrediting Association and selected the texts, did the course outline, and taught. I taught it for about three or four years, and that was fun. Then a lot of the people that got their degrees there, got that BSL degree, they went up the ladder pretty fast at Hill. AR: Oh wow. DV: Yeah, and I was really not qualified to teach at college level. But I'm the only one they had and knew those systems like that, so I taught. Then I ended up a pretty good grade out there. I ended up a GS13 and that's pretty good money. But that's about the story of my life, but uh. When I was a little kid I got interested in music because my sister and 7 brother-in-law loved music. My sister married this guy, and man he was following all the big bands and then they end up moving. He went to work in a defense plant over in Hollywood, Northrop Aircraft, and they had a little apartment and there was a whole gang of musicians living in those apartments. And one of them was a fellow they already knew from Ogden. So when I'd go down there to visit, why he'd take me to all these places, took me to hear the Jimmy Lunceford band which was the band then. Way ahead of Basie and Duke Ellington in those days. But I went to hear that band and then they came here and played a few times in the Rainbow Rendezvous down in Salt Lake, but I always went down to see 'em. But he started me buying records and listening to all this, bands, and when the big bands would come through here. Then I saw, there were a lot of big bands that played at the White City. Stan Cannon did and a lot of those big bands. During the war they had, you'd crowd the place. In those days when the big band was playing there was a lot of people who just knew bands. They'd stand there and watch the band. You'd have a big group hanging around the band. They don't do that now. Nobody ever stands at the band at the college. AR: Yeah, that's true. Do you guys enjoy that if people just sit there? DV: Well if you had somebody listening, it helps. It even helps if we've got a lot of people dancing. AR: Yeah. DV: It was pretty good the other night when you guys were there, but a fairly good crowd. Not really good because we've had three or four times that many. But when they tore the Student Union building apart, for two years we didn't play. The band kept going because we had a few outside jobs we did. You know, like we played down at the Hotel in Salt Lake 8 last month, no in January, for a State Board conference. Three days of it. School board people. And we had over five hundred people there listening to us, and that was fun. They were gonna get the Osmond’s but they wanted so much money for that. Earl's on the State School board and one of the board members, and, uh, I guess there's one of the directors and he told him, "I'll put on a show for you. Use my band and my singers," and he has this other group of singers. You haven't heard them yet. They sing like the old Hi Lows or Modernaires, some of those. Just young kids. There's a music teacher. Her name is Felstead. Her father was Don Ripplinger who used to conduct the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. He just did that on kind of a part-time basis, but used to be there a lot of years ago. And his daughter is a music teacher at Davis High I think, and every year she puts a group of singers together singing these old World War II singing group tunes, you know. And where she got all the arrangements for them, I don't know, but she's got the arrangement for the big band too, so. AR: Really. DV: To go with it. So and every year she starts a new group. Well we had a very good group of her people there at the hotel, Little America is where we played down there. And, uh, a good group there. Cause there were groups that graduated before and she picked out the ones that were the best. Cause some times, some years, she'd have one singer in there that doesn't sing in tune, and that kind of ruins it. AR: Yeah, that's true. DV: Anyway, that's about it. There used to be a lot of fine musicians around here. A whole group of ‘em. A lot of them ended up music teachers, but they were a bunch of guys that were in the, during World War II, they were in the National Guard Band, right here in the 9 Ogden Armory out here. And when the war broke out, because they were National Guard, they were the first outfit called up in Utah. AR: Really, wow. DV: They took the instruments away from them and gave them guns and sent them to a preliminary boot camp and sent them to war. And they all went through the Battle of the Bulge together. AR: Really? Wow. DV: Yeah. AR: Under Patton, huh? DV: Yeah. Yeah, Patton was proud to be part of that, but huh. But there were a lot of other guys, but, one of them was a teacher here at Mount Ogden. Grant Russell, he taught here somewhere. I don't know where they all taught. Then later one, guys like Clayton Furch and the piano player. Yeah well Clayt, he was in the Korean War and he taught at several of the high schools around here. Taught music. And he and I had played together quite a bit. AR: So you guys play with Joe McQueen together? DV: Well he plays with Joe all the time. He's... but uh I don't. I played with Joe McQueen before he even came to this town, before Clayton did. But Joe is, you know, he likes to play wild and honk and uh, and I'd rather play nice, more pretty stuff with the trio. So Clayton and I play together and we have a drummer that does very fine. His name is Owens. Armstrong Owens. Because he has the name Armstrong, they call him tough. And he's sixty-nine years old. But he's been away from here for thirty years. He worked for the government over in the state of Washington and retired here about five years ago, 10 and came back here. He hadn't done much playing in all those years, but we're using him now. AR: Oh good. So what instruments do you play, then? DV: I started out on clarinet, and then I ended up buying me a baritone sax and played Bari, then when I was in the service I played tenor before they found a bass for me. And then I played, uh, I came home with that alto sax and played it at Weber College when I started there. We had a sax quartet at Weber College. AR: Oh really. DV: Yeah and we played around various functions. People used to like to listen to things like that, but they don't so much anymore. You see, some of these great musicians, like you go back and look at the great ones like Stan Getz and all those guys that came through, they couldn't draw a crowd like one of these guys on the guitar banging away. They can make a million dollars in one night, some of those big concerts where you just pack the house. Well our music never did sell like that. AR: Really. DV: Well it’s harder to understand, you know, for the younger people. AR: Oh yeah, right. So what percentage of the music, like when you're playing bass, how much of it is improvised, because I know you read charts, but how much of it is improvised? DV: Well for the most part, improvising only takes place when a soloist gets up. And you heard our fine tenor player? AR: Right. 11 DV: Oh he plays fine. And then Skip plays the trumpet very nice. We've got two or three fine trombone players. And when they play a solo, they're improvising. Now sometimes Clayt, he'll set back and just look at the chords and really sing. And then there's a lot of tunes that are easy and so Clayt's playing and singing like, what's this one tune, uh, Summer Wind, and that goes in about three or four different keys. It starts out in B-flat or something like that. But I know that tune so well and it fits in every key, you know. So I just, especially when they go into the key of F, I just play. I don't even look at the music. But I'm one that's, I have to look at that music as, even though I've learned how to read and we get a new tune and the whole band reads it pretty well right off. We never get to rehearse. AR: Wow. Do you like that? DV: Well, I'd like to rehearse, but see we got guys who are living in Kearns and Provo and you know, all over the place. St. George. One of ‘em he just moved there and we won't see him anymore, but he used to. The one I'm talking about moving to St. George, he played with The Synthesis Band at BYU, with old Ray Smith. AR: Oh wow. DV: So he's fine. So we had to sub for him the other night. AR: Oh really? DV: His name's Cliff Orem. Fine, fine guy. AR: So how did you get involved with the Junction City Big Band? I know you already told me. DV: I've already told you, but do you want to hear about it? Yeah, well I had a combo and I had Bill Bockus, who’s a piano player around here. He's still around but he doesn't do any playing anymore. I had him and a drummer, I don't remember which one it was. Then I had Dick Straley; he was one of the sax players in the big band now. He was playing 12 baritone sax with us and tenor. When we were playing for a function, a fund-raising thing down at the Union Depot and there was just the four of us. And the band that came on after us was the Junction City Big Band. They were new because, this was '88 and they had been going since '87. Pretty brand new at it. Don Keipp was with them then. Earl was getting ready to retire so he wanted to put a band together and uh got it all set up so we'd be sponsored by the college. And we still are. And uh, because he was a music professor there, you know. And uh, so, I had a PA system, this thing here for my combo. There's an old hall there, but it was big and we needed it so. So I use it to amplify my bass plus Bill would do some singing. And so the big band started setting up before we finished and finally Earl came up to me, Dr. Erickson, and said, uh, "Say, we got a problem." He said, "The man has a PA system. They do have a house system", he said. "But they can't find the guy. He was supposed to be here tonight and have it all set up and he never showed. They been trying to call him and they can't get him" and he says, "And I got some performers and singers that's gonna be with the big band tonight" and he says, "I need a PA system. Can we borrow yours?" And I said, "Wow. I'm gonna go home. Gosh I play with you guys if I stay with the PA system till you guys quit, it's midnight doing nothing". And I said, "And I don't like trust anybody else to handle my system". So Don Keipp walks up and he said, "Dutch, we need you to play bass. We don't have a bass player tonight. Then you can have your system here". So I said, "Well I haven't read music for three hundred years but I'll try it." So that's ... I got through the night somehow, and boy I thought it was pretty bad, but Earl thought it was pretty good. So he said, "Will you play with us on a regular basis?" And I said, "Well Earl. I'll think about it." I said, "I probably will, but..." I said, "I won't play any jobs that interfere with my combo work". I said, "I can't just, 13 you know, leave these guys". He said, "Well the jobs are not that often". He said, "There won’t be very many jobs that'll clash." You know, Clayt, today, if he's got a job with Joe McQueen down at the Wine Cellar where it pays some money, pays a lot more than the big band does, why he'll do that and we'll have to get a sub. AR: Oh wow. DV: But that doesn't happen very often because uh, what do we do, play on Fridays once a month at the college. And we do have outside jobs, but now the economy is even hurting that. We used to have, in February we had three LDS Stake Center jobs for Valentine's Day. AR: Oh wow. DV: Every year. And two in Morgan and one here in Ogden. And we didn't get any of those this year. They had a little problem paying the money. So we either have to work for low wages or not work at all, I guess. But I'm not doing it for the money anyway. I'm just doing it because I enjoy it. I think it's a privilege to be able to play with a big band. They're all gone except one here and there. I think Salt Lake has one big band and I think one of the Layton High School teachers has one he's put together, and we have one. There used to be one up in Logan, but they're all kind of falling by the wayside and I'm thinking we're heading that way. Earl's eighty-six and he just had another, kind of a stroke or heart surgery just before this last job. Nobody else wants all the responsibility. You can't believe it. He's gotta keep all the guys lined up, all the music set up, and get everybody together. And he has all the equipment, the stands and lights and everything else. And we try to play with those strobe lights the other night and I couldn't see my music. Did you see those lights we were using? 14 AR: I didn't, no. DV: Just a little bars going on with the battery. They were lousy. Dick Straley couldn't even see the names of the tunes that we were supposed to play. I was trying to help him and get my own music out and that, anyway uh, that's a big part of it. AR: Yeah, yeah. So um ... as far as jazz and big band, you've played in both, right? Jazz and big band? DV: Yeah, yeah. AR: What do you think the difference is between the two? DV: Well I'll tell you. When the soloist gets up with the big band and plays a solo, he's playing jazz. See jazz is improvising and ... We've gone through a lot of different eras of music in the jazz field, you know. There was the hard jazz that came along now I guess thirty years ago. And then before that was bee bop with Dizzie Gillespie and, you know, a lot of things change. I like to just play some pretty ballads and some up tunes. And uh, not try to have to get carried away with all these harmonies and dissin and sounds that they like to get, you know. And uh, I like to hear it, but they don't draw any crowds doing that. I went down 52nd Street when I was in the service, in New York, and heard all the jazz down there, and I heard Dizzie Gillespie for the first time down there in 1945. AR: Wow, really? DV: Yeah. But there was a lot of great music went on, and the greatest music written and the best big bands we ever had started out during World War II. Artie Shaw band was great, you know and there's Tommy Dorsey and Jimmy Dorsey and Harry James and ... I don't know if you've ever heard of all those groups? AR: Yeah, yeah. 15 DV: But then...and people were crowding the ballrooms so they could afford to pay the bands. Big crowds paying to get in. But now, you have...The job at the Weber College before this one, we didn't make anything. AR: Really? DV: No. We have to pay the utilities that night for the college and uh, and they charge us a fee to have the technicians come help set up a PA system for us and set up the bandstand. We have to pay them for that, so when they get through. But you know, there are nights when, well the job before this last one we didn't make anything. I mean it was such a small amount that I told Earl, why don't you just keep it and put it in your slush fund? When we bring some of those musicians up from Salt Lake, we had Jerry Flores in the other night. He's one of the finest musicians in the state, and he's got a son that's even better than he is. He's got two sons that play, but he has the big band in Salt Lake that we were talking about. He puts on those jazz festivals in July down in Salt Lake. He's in charge of all those. He's an older guy, but plays fine lead alto. Earl Erickson's granddaughter is playing third alto. And his son plays the baritone sax, and uh, so she's uh, when Grant conked out, why Earl's trying her out. And her dad takes all the music home from the sax section. Usually he plays the various instruments, the sax instrument with her playing the third alto parts, trying to get her on board. And she's in Don Keipp's jazz class, big band class. AR: Oh really? DV: Big band class, yeah, so, so she's coming along. But that Grant, boy he was one time. He used to be one of the best lead alto players. The lead alto player has to be good, I'll tell you, because he sets all the phrasing for the rest of the sax. AR: Wow really? Really, geez, that is cool. 16 DV: Yeah. AR: So what, as far as the music goes, what is, what is your favorite style to play, I guess when you're playing in the big band? DV: Well, I don't know. I like some of these tunes like, like the one I just played, and then there's uh, I can't even think of the name of it. I'm getting old, but I like the written parts on some of this stuff. AR: Yeah. DV: All those that have Duke Ellington, Count Basie arrangements. They write for the bass, boy, and I like to play their notes. And uh, but uh, most of the stuff I just like to play it verbatim. And there's uh, when I'm not playing big band, though, it's all improvising and I like to play that. We play two or three jobs a month with the combo. AR: Oh really? DV: Yeah. AR: So you only play with one other combo right now? DV: Right now I'm just, I, yeah, I put in two years over here with an old buddy that I went to high school with. He's got a tenor, he plays tenor sax and clarinet and he has another fellow with him playing guitar, and another guy playing trumpet. And they play free over here at the Ogden Senior Center. AR: Oh really? DV: But I played with them for two years and I think Mel's getting old and cantankerous He kind of got into a thing with me in a way I didn't appreciate awhile back so ... So I just conked out of there. I was doing it cause they had the music and they had tunes that I hadn't seen or heard of for years and it was a pleasure to play some of those tunes. Even 17 the guys that play all the old standards don't reach back and get some of those beautiful things and that's the only reason I was playing with them. The band wasn't very, the group wasn't very good but uh, I had, the guitar man, and you're a guitar man, he didn't read any music. He didn't play any lead line, just chords and he's playing off of chord symbols. AR: Really? DV: Yeah, he's never had any, you know, formal training as far as music goes, but he has a pretty good ear. He sings a little with that. But uh, you know why the guys can do that for fifty years and never learn any more than reading chord symbols. I'd certainly learn how to play a lead line. AR: Right, exactly, yeah that's true. That is true. DV: And those are the kind of guys that are hurting all the good musicians because they'll undercut you. They'll play for a lot less money and so people hire them because of their price and it kind of cuts some of the others out. AR: That's true. That is true. So what about, do you think there's a resurgence in jazz big band music? DV: Well there has been on and off. No, did you notice the other night that gal who’s teaching the dancing? We had that started a few years ago and taught a lot of these young college kids in high school. Kids were learning the dance and they loved it. Well, you know, they started coming in all the time and the crowd built up. But then you go two years and there's nothing going on, but we had quite a few people there because this gal brought her students there that night. It only cost ‘em a dollar apiece for lessons. AR: Really. Geez, that's good. 18 DV: So you know, and that's helped us just to have something like that, but uh. But we even had a few people standing there listening to the band even. AR: Yeah. DV: Yeah. AR: So how do you think that the younger audience views big band? DV: Well, a lot of them never heard it to this day even though it's been around. You can even catch it on TV once in a while, you know, but once you get ‘em exposed. Like my granddaughter that I've been trying to get her to come to those college dances. She won't. She comes up with some excuse. She won't make it. AR: Oh. DV: Yeah and I offered her my piano and a few other things, but, my son's got, his wife's got a couple of young daughters that I think will end up with this piano. AR: Wow, that's cool. DV: Yeah. My son plays awfully fine guitar. AR: Really? DV: Yeah, and he took classical guitar from a guy in Salt Lake at the University of Utah. He was in the music department there. And then when he was in the service he got hold of a twelve-string guitar and really started playing that thing. AR: Wow, yeah. DV: And he's uh, he plays my bass better than I do. But he hasn't touched it now, anything for years. He's got a guitar, a classical guitar at his home, living down in St. George, and never, never touches it anymore. And I don't know why. It'd be a good sideline for him. 19 However, he got flying remote-control airplanes and uh, I think he likes that better than music cause he's doing a lot of flying that way. He's one of the best. AR: Oh that's cool. So is you’re, so you've played in your stand-up days, you only played fretless or they only made fretless right? DV: Yeah, I played fretless. Now I did have electric with the frets on it. AR: Oh did you like that very much? DV: Well, I needed it fretless because I'm on top of those frets all the time. You know, when you're playing a string instrument like this, you've gotta have a good ear, especially when it's fretless. AR: That is true. DV: You've gotta find the right spot where you put your fingers and play those notes. And uh, since I've had to sit on the stool now, my back won't let me stand up all night like I did for a hundred years, but uh, I finally ordered me a stool and I got it. It's out in the garage. I just leave this one down here. This is the one I've carried around and played all over the place, but uh, but the one out in the garage is adjustable and that's what I need because this one sets too low. It makes me uh, it puts me in the wrong position when I'm sitting down. So I had to lower the pegs right down to the floor and see what I can do? AR: Wow, that's cool. DV: Yeah. AR: So do you write any music or do you have any originals that you've done. DV: I write out a lot of lead lines. AR: Oh really. 20 DV: Yeah, just to practice the tunes. You know, I write all these things, and then I write all these lead lines just so I can play 'em. This Skylark is a hard tune to play, you know, but, I don't know if you know that tune? Portrait of My Love. That's in pencil. I wrote that all out and then figured out the chords to put in there. AR: Oh really? DV: Speak Low See I've got all the chords. Got the chords in there. And that's all good for you. There's a beautiful waltz, Emily. Have you ever heard that? AR: Oh, vaguely. DV: (Hums notes) I don't know if you've heard that. And I love, have you ever heard the tune Tenderly? AR: Uh hmm. DV: Yeah, I love to play that. AR: Yeah. DV: It's in three flats, but it's a nice key for that too. AR: So what's your favorite memory of the Junction City Big Band? DV: Oh I don't know. Believe it or not, I think it's the one that happened recently. AR: Oh. DV: Uh, we played down there at Salt Lake, I told you, for the School Board, and that was board members from all over the state, from all the schools in Utah. And we had a good crowd and uh, we played that thing I just played for you, that featured just bass and singer. AR: Oh right, right. 21 DV: And then when she was singing Over the Rainbow, I like to pick out some real pretty notes and some little rhythm patterns behind her. AR: Yeah. DV: And uh, the arrangement is so good and it's so easy to play bass with it. Well, when it ended, they all came up and was congratulating the singer, but I had a whole bunch of them over there congratulating me. AR: Oh wow. DV: And one guy says, "Man it's good to hear that old upright bass". He said, "Man that's the only instrument we use with the big band". He said, "That was just wonderful". Well then two or three more, and then they wanted some cards. This one guys said, "My, my parents are from your area and they'd like to dance to this". So Earl wrote up a little deal and something funny happened on that job. Earl wrote some instructions on how to segue from this one tune to another tune. And in the instructions he put a little eleven in there that we don't even know what it meant. But that was tune eleven in the book that we was supposed to go to. Then he had the next tune listed after that, after the number eleven. Well when I got there early, I asked Earl. I said, "Hey we can't segue into that tune." I said, "There are two different keys along way apart". I said, "Why don't you have the piano take four and modulate into that key". He says, "No". He says, "The way I got it set up, I've done it before". He says, "It segues and goes right into it". Then I said, "Well I don't see what you're talking about". Then Clayt says, "He's talking about, you see that number eleven? That's the tune you segue into". So I told Earl, "Hey, I hope all the other guys understand it better than I did". So we got up there to do this tune, and we segued into this other tune, and he gives the down beat and half the band's playing one tune and half of it's 22 playing the other. And we broke down completely. He had to stop and explain it to the crowd, which embarrassed him. But the crowd got a kick out of it. They were laughing like heck. So we all got the right music out and played it, but that was uh ... I got all those compliments. So Earl sent out this thing saying, "I want you guys when I put out instructions, you better read ‘em, so you don't break down like we did the other night." That was in the letter. I got it up there. He sent it out to all the band members. And he said, "But we did go over great". He said, "We're gonna get all their conventions". But he said, "Ruth, just, and her husband brought down the house." AR: Wow, yeah. DV: And he says, "And then I got a lot of compliments on bass player, Dutch" he said, so that made me feel good, but it embarrassed me and I was hoping nobody would say anything to me the next time I saw them, and they didn't so. AR: Did you want to keep going on the interview because my tape is about done. I have more. DV: No I'm ready to quit when you are. AR: Okay. Okay. I just have a few more questions to ask you. It's nothing. I'm just going to switch this out really quick. Thanks I appreciate it. This is great. DV: That's a neat little thing. It takes really good movies huh? AR: Yeah it really does. I know, I've done a lot with this. DV: So if I got a copy, where would I see it? I'd have to have one of those machines wouldn't I? AR: Yeah, because I was gonna make it onto DVD's. Do you have DVD? DV: Oh yeah, I have DVD. AR: Okay, yeah, because I just have to make it on, so I just have to do film and then... DV: So that just takes and you can put on... 23 AR: Yeah. DV: They're a little smaller than a regular cassette tape, aren't they? AR: Yeah, and it's nice because I've used, you know I've recorded with like the old cassette ones, and I had a bigger one that was like, um 8 mm ones, and those ones were good but these ones. They, I just like the quality of the film they produce a little better so. DV: Oh okay. So you'll make me one and I'll pay you for it. AR: No you don't have to do, no I appreciate you doing this interview. I'll give it to you the pictures to. I did a little editing with them. I didn't do much yet, but you know, I changed the color on them and brightened some of them, and you know cropped some so. Yeah just... DV: Well Earl sent you to me, and I'm probably the only one that's been willing to set down and do this. The rest of the guys are, you know, I don't think you'll get them to do it. Possibly, but, you couldn't get anybody like Clayt or Skip or any of those guys to do it AR: Yeah, that's true. So I guess, I was going to ask, so what about the music of the railroad. Like Ogden. You said back in the forties and stuff when the railroad was coming through here. Has Jazz changed since Ogden and wasn't going through Ogden as much? DV: Well, I'll tell you during the war, it was right at the end of the war and uh and right after they opened up a club for blacks down here and it was called Porters and Waiters club. And it was for the black people that worked as porters and waiters and the whites weren't even allowed in there. But Joe McQueen was one of the first bands to open up there. And uh, it was in '45 I guess when he came to Ogden from Oklahoma or somewhere, he came here to play a one night stand and ended up spending the rest of his life here. See he's gonna be ninety this month. He took better care of himself than my father did. But anyway that Porter's and Waiter's club, big black name bands would come through and knew about 24 that place and they'd come down there and play. A lot of jam sessions. A lot of after-hours things that went until four and five in the morning. AR: Wow. DV: And uh, and then, they let white musicians come in there, but there wasn't anybody else come in, but that finally changed. But Annabelle Leakley who ran that place just got killed in an automobile wreck. I don't know if you read it in the Standard Examiner. Joe McQueen was driving coming back from Wendover and uh, he had it on cruise at about 65 miles an hour and uh, coming back from Wendover and they had just got underway, I think, and she said, "You know it's hot in here. I want to take my coat off'. So she undone her seatbelt and started to take her coat off and she was having a little trouble and Joe reached over to help her. Whew, went off the road and rolled five times. And uh she uh was a great woman. She was the booking agent for a little combo I was in with her husband and Nadine's, my wife's first husband, late husband. And he and I and a guitar player and she had a floor show and the band and booked us all. We played in Malad and all those places. AR: Oh really. DV: Then I didn't see her for years until the Joe McQueen days started and she came to that. The mayor of Ogden was there at the Egyptian and he's funny. The mayor was reading this, okay, and you know, you know how you spell gig? G-I-G? He was reading and didn't know what gig meant. Mayor Godfrey? He was reading it and he says, "Joe McQueen came here in 1945 to play a jig. The place about broke up. And he still didn't know what he did wrong. AR: Really? 25 DV: That was a highlight. AR: That's good. DV: But then she came back stage and I was putting my bass up and I talked to her. AR: Oh. DV: And that was a couple years ago or so, but, it's sure too bad that happened. She and Joe were very close. And Joe and her been going down to Wendover gambling for years. AR: Oh yeah, yeah. DV: And he didn't plan on going that weekend. AR: Really. DV: Because uh, but she called and said, "I left my…" What was it she left down there? Her glasses. "My prescription glasses", and she said, "I called down there and they found them. So let’s go down this weekend and gamble and I'll get my glasses". So Joe said, "Well okay", so they went down and that's what happened on the way back. When they got down there, they couldn't find the woman she talked to. They never did get her glasses. AR: Aw geez. DV: So it was, boy uh real ironic, I'll tell you. AR: Yeah. I guess to change the subject, what do you feel about the vocals in big band? Do you like vocals in big band? DV: Oh yeah. Yeah. Especially now we got a good vocalist. Clayt sings pretty well. AR: Really. DV: He sang a couple. Did you notice? AR: Yeah. I noticed. 26 DV: He sang a couple that night. And then that trombone player sang that On the Street and then she sang several. AR: Yeah, she's great. DV: She's the lead singer. AR: Yeah she is, yeah. DV: Yeah, but I don't know how, whether they were originally from this area or not, but her folks live in Washington. And uh, they came down here one night when she sang. They were, both of them, in Tennessee. AR: Wow. DV: And he called Earl a year ago and says I'm coming, moving back to Ogden. He says, "I heard about your band and I was wondering if I could ... If you would let me set in with you guys once in a while." He said, "Even if I just doubled up. And Earl says, "Well sure you can". He says, "I got four trombones" and he said, "You can trade off with any of them so, and they'll be glad to set out and let you play a couple". So he'd been doing that for a while and then this trombone player that used to set up our PA system played bass trombone. He works up in Orem and going to BYU and working another job, well he had to leave the other job early to come clear down here and set up. And now the economy and things and they said, "You can't do that anymore. You either stay with your job or we'll have to let you go. And of course I can't let you go for three or four hours at a time except on leave." You know, so he quit, so this guy took his place. AR: Really. 27 DV: And he didn't play in bass trombone, but one of the other guys, that was his main instrument. He's been playing regular trombone all the time, so he just took over bass trombone. So the trombone section really sounds good now, so. AR: Yeah, yeah, that's true. DV: But I do like singing groups too with the big band, you know. AR: Oh okay. Yeah, and what about the venues? I guess you kind of mentioned the White City Ballroom and, the venues, have they changed a lot since you've been playing in Ogden area? DV: Um and what do you mean by venues? AR: Um like the places that you play at. DV: Oh yeah, those places are gone. There used to be another ballroom, Berthana? AR: Oh really? DV: Yeah, that was down on 24th Street. The secretary of the Musicians Union at that time had a band down there. I played with him a lot. But it was all upstairs. They had dances on the weekend and then they'd roller skate there in the day during the week. It was really kind of funny. AR: That is. DV: During the war, though it was strictly dancing, but... yeah, then uh ... then Salt Lake had three or four big ballrooms. Up in Logan they had a ballroom called the Dansant. It was a big ballroom and a friend of mine had the band up there. I played with him the first year when I got out of the service, and uh ... and he wrote all the arrangements. He had a good band. But he had to come to Ogden and Salt Lake to get some of the musicians because 28 he didn't have enough up there. Although the college is close up there, you know, in Pocatello, and so he did get some musicians from there. AR: Oh cool. DV: But all those guys I played with are gone and dead, so. AR: I'm sorry. Sorry. So um, and then I guess my last question, I mean unless you want to add anything else. What is your main influence? Some of your influences? DV: Well. I don't know what kind of an influence I have. Uh, the guys seem to like my playing. I'm not sure they all liked it when I first started out, I was having a little trouble. But I pulled out all the tunes that took some work and Don Holm (trails off indistinctly). AR: Oh wow. DV: That all helped me get back with me and uh, some of this music is pretty hard, you know, so uh... And I had trouble with the PA system. But now I got this good one and uh, we've got our new sound engineer that makes, brings this bass out too. And boy that has been good for the band. And these singers will tell you what's most important behind me when I'm singing is the bass. AR: Exactly. Yep. That's true. DV: So that's one of the things I'm brought forward. Plus poor Earl had to try to set up that band himself when I first started with him. Now he can't do it anymore, so I'm there all the time to help him. AR: Oh wow. DV: So and he appreciates that. Now the guys will help him pack up and get out of there fast. They'll all help or he's assigned the whole band to do that. But most of them are working on a Friday. Earl and I go in there and set up at three o'clock in the afternoon. 29 AR: Really. DV: So the rest of the guys are working, and even Earl's son. He's a school teacher, not a music teacher, but he teaches up in Coalville, and a lot of the guys in the band were music teachers. But I guess they're the ones that kept with it, but as you notice, we're all older guys. AR: Yeah, yeah. DV: In '88 when I started with them, there were a couple of them that were students. The Valis Brothers, I don't know if you heard of those guys. They were tremendous. Larry Valis and I forget his brother's name. A drummer and guitar player. AR: Really? DV: And uh, Jim, Jimmy was a guitar player and you never heard a guitar player like that guy. AR: Really? DV: Oh you would have appreciated hearing him. He played in the big band for long guitar. And Earl had guitar parts for all the stuff we played so... AR: Oh that is cool. Huh. DV: So if he didn't have the guitar part, he'd put the chords together and put them on a sheet of music for him, for that tune. AR: So has the sound of the big band changed a lot? DV: No. AR: No. DV: No. We sound like many different bands when we're playing. We sound like Count Basie; we sound like Duke Ellington; we sound like we got some arrangements. We sound like 30 that, and we got Les Brown. He's got a little bit of everybody because uh, there was a couple of dances where we had to bring out tunes by each band of the period back there. AR: Oh yeah. DV: Most of the theme songs and then like Ben Goodman's Last Dance and uh, Les Brown was Leapfrog and all those kinds of things. And Glen Miller was (humming) the one we start with. We play it from the middle of the tune. AR: Oh really. DV: Yeah, but Earl goes to a lot of work and he has everything ready for the job. The guys just have to sit down there and pull their tunes out from that sheet I told you. So... AR: Yeah, yeah. It keeps you young right? DV: Yeah. Well it keeps me going though. I don't think I'd be here if I didn't have that to look forward to. Keep playing. And uh, we, there was, we were playing several of these assisted living retirement homes with our small group, and we're down to one now, one or two. AR: Really. DV: Yeah in this economy they just... And I'm sure they're making plenty of money to pay us a few bucks, but uh... AR: Right. DV: But management won't let ‘em hire us anymore. AR: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to add Dutch? DV: No uh, uh, do you want to turn that off and stick around and I'll see if I can take that picture apart and see if I've got another picture in there for you? And then, I'd like you to see Earl and get him to let you take those pictures and you can make copies from them on a copy 31 machine somewhere. There are some good ones. And I think they're in color. Now there are some, you know, of different parts of the section, and there is one that's looking down between the sax and the trumpets and I'm over there playing bass, and the guys soloing and so forth. And they're recent, like three years ago. AR: Oh okay. Alright. Oh and then. Oh I, um, before the interview officially ends, I just had to have you spell out your name if you could and just say the date. Sorry we forgot to do that. We're supposed to do it at the beginning but it's okay. DV: Let's see the date, okay the day is March the 8th, 2009. And my name is Glen Van Leeuwen. They call me Dutch because of that Dutch last name. And Van Leeuwen is in two words, Capital Van space capital Leeuwen. AR: Oh great. Thank you. I appreciate it. DV: But I would, I do think you ought to get some of that from Earl. AR: Okay. DV: You see, this bass is, I think is so much better than the four-strings and I'll tell you why. On the four-string, this is the highest string. This is a G and you're fingering clear up here, (strums the bass) and you don't get near as good of a sound. If you can finger that one, you can finger this one. Get a lot better sound. If you're playing up here in seventh position, you're just playing on a short string, and you don't get a good full sound. AR: Right, right. Thank you. DV: I'd like to hear you play guitar some time. AR: Yeah, definitely yeah. 32