Oral History Program Fred Puffer Jr. Interviewed by Bruce Dalley 22 July 1972 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Fred Puffer Jr. Interviewed by Bruce Dalley 22 July 1972 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Puffer, Fred Jr, an oral history by Bruce Dalley, 22 July 1972, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Fred Puffer Jr. The interview was conducted on July 22, 1972, by Bruce Dalley, in Puffer’s parents’ home. Puffer discusses his life growing up, and being a farmer. He also talks about irrigation and a bit about the government. BD: Now, could you start by giving me a little background information about yourself? FP: Well I was born here, February 10, 1933. I lived here all my life. I'm now a farmer. BD: Your father is a farmer? FP: Yes, my father is a farmer. Great grandfather was a farmer. BD: When you were growing up, you grew up during the depression. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what that was like. FP: That was before my time, Bruce. BD: Tell me what you did around the farm with the chores and that, if you would. FP: Well, we did the chores and all, milked the cows. Being a kid, I did the hay tromping, while they pitched. BD: By tromping hay, was that walking around on top of it or--? FP: Yeah, I rode the derrick horse for different ones, and then we would get our hay up, and I would ride the derrick horse for the neighbors. Went down and road the derrick horse for Fred Harris. We would take care of the cows, milked a few cows for dad. He had a few range cows that we run on the forest. BD: About these range cows, how many could you run and what limited this? FP: I think he started out with seven head, then he bought some more permit and then he got up to twentythree. BD: He runs twenty-three now? FP: Yes, twenty-three now. BD: Now you said he bought a permit. Doesn't the Government issue these or how does that work? 1 FP: No, I imagine at one time the government issued them, but that was before my time. This permit dad has got and ones I got now, we bought. BD: Where did you buy them from? FP: I bought mine from Glennas Dan, then a merchant. Dad, he bought part of his from Uncle Jack, and I don't know where he got the first one from. BD: OK, that is Uncle Jack Puffer? FP: Don. BD: Don Puffer. About this, can you remember any of the federal programs or state programs while you were growing up for aid for farmers. FP: Not that I signed up with, no. I couldn't see where they would benefit me. BD: Have you, you said that you haven't participated in any of these aid programs, how about subsidies or anything like this? FP: No. BD: DO you agree with the way the government works these aid programs or do you think they should change them? FP: No, I think they should change them. They are more for the big farmer than they are for the small one. BD: How could they change them to help the small farmer? FP: Well, what we got around here mostly is just wool allotments, wheat allotments and something that we just don't grow. If they would get in a different kind of feed program where they had sheep or grain or sheep or hay, it would help us. BD: Now by sheep or grain, you mean like kind of what they were doing during the depression. Give you the surplus grain from the mid-vest for just the transportation costs? Is this kind of what you want? FP: Yes, they might as well give it to us as ship it to Russia. 2 BD: Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that, but I guess that's true. Has the state government ever done anything for you as a farmer, or have they kind of hassled your quality. FP: No, nothing that would help. BD: Are they a total waste of time in the programs? FP: As far as I am concerned they are. Maybe I'm foolish to think that way but they probably, a lot of them help, but not me. BD: Can I ask you what your political affiliations were while you were growing up and now, if I may? FP: Sure, what do you want to know? BD: Just a, do you support most the Democrat or Republicans platforms, or do you vote for the man regardless of his party? FP: Do you want me to tell you the truth on that? BD: Please. FP: I've never voted yet. If they don't change it, I'm not going to. I don't think either one of them is helping us a bit. BD: Well, I've heard a lot of people say that, I guess in a classical sense, apathy is the best form of government. FP: You know, Bruce, seems like when one guy gets elected, it seems like the only thing he is after is money. He don't want to help the people, it don't matter whether he is a Republican or Democrat. BD: I've heard a lot of people say that. I sometimes believe it very much myself. If you want to, I want to ask you, while you were growing up, what was the house like? FP: This house here? BD: Yeah. FP: Well as I remember, I was just a little kid when they moved it over here. I don't know if Marie would remember that or not. I remember them driving it over with horses. And the two rooms in here and then he built this one when I was just a kid, and then we got house logs. I think that Marie went with us. 3 We stayed up there for about a week or so, and then we brought the logs down and built this one. Then when I got bigger, about out of school, he built those two rooms back there. Then what? BD: Did they always have electricity here? FP: No, no I don't remember just when dad got this in but he didn't get it until after the other guys did. BD: Was there any reason for this? FP: They started out with the REA in 1947 to do it. Put the other guys in and they said he was too far away to get the power to him. BD: So I guess where you lived that was tough. FP: Yeah. BD: Then how about the phone? FP: Oh, it hasn't been in many years, not up here. In the lower end of the creek it has. BD: For the same reason? FP: Yes, too far away. BD: How about the road from Beaver up here to North Creek. I can remember when that wasn't paved. What was that, about ten years that it has been paved? FP: Yeah, about that. And that still isn't finished, is it? BD: No. FP: Boy, it used to be rough, but I sure appreciate it what all we have on there, I remember when dad used to have that Plymouth down there, it would run him right off the road with the ruts. BD: This was back during the Second World War, wasn't it? FP: Ah-ah. That Plymouth was a 46 or 47. BD: Then after the Second World War. Now during the Second World War, where did you notice that you had to go without anything? 4 FP: Yes, we were pretty well shorted on sugar and clothes, gas, and that was about it because we had most of our vegetables and other garden. BD: Now, when you said gas, did you have a tractor then? FP: Yes, we had a tractor about that time. BD: You just had one tractor at that time. FP: Yes. BD: How long has it been that you had a tractor, or did you always use a tractor? FP: No, dad got the first tractor in 1946, in the fall of that year he bought a little Ford Ferguson. But I drove the horses and that before then, what little bit I helped. BD: What little bit you helped. Now when you say horses, was it two or four or--? FP: A team, just a team. Two horses. BD: You did all the work, then, with horses. FP: Yeah, till we got the tractor. It was slow but it sure beat the horses. But you know, with the new tractors, they really get out and go. BD: In comparison, what would you say a tractor like this ford would cost compared with the one like you have now? FP: You probably pay $1200 for that one new. Now a big tractor would cost you about ten to twelve thousand dollars new. BD: Does the new one do that much more for you? FP: Well it’s a bigger tractor, it will do more, but it is not worth that much more money. BD: How much would you say that you have put into machinery in your farm? FP: Oh, probably Twenty thousand. BD: Then you have all the machinery that it takes to run it. 5 FP: No, I could use a lot more. BD: Could use a lot more. If a person is going to start farming, how much would it cost with money, just outright to buy a farm and farm equipment and land, enough to make it work for him? FP: Oh, if you really were going to get into it right now, it would probably cost you about one hundred thousand dollars. If you was going to have enough to make a living you should have that much. BD: Could you make enough out of this hundred thousand dollar farm to pay the loan back? FP: Well, I imagine, yes. BD: That would keep you hustling though. FP: Oh yeah, that's for sure. BD: Let me ask you too, the prices you get for your crops and stuff, has that changed the laws as you can remember or? FP: No not really. You used to get three cents a pound for the grain and they still do. And butterfat has gone up some. When we were milking cows, it hasn't raised much from what it used to be. We used to figure we would get about three or four cents per gallon of milk at the creamery. But our beef is up a little from what it was. See I sold two last Wednesday, for forty two cents, which is the highest I've ever got. BD: That is forty two cents a pound on the hoof? FP: Yes. BD: What that would average is about $1.00 per pound in the store, would you say? FP: Well they sell them about fifty to sixty cents to the butch shops, per pound. BD: How much do they lose due to the weight of the head? FP: I guess about 50 percent. BD: Fifty percent. FP: By the time you get it to the butcher shop. 6 BD: Then you do have to mark it up a bit. FP: To make something out of it. BD: Now out of this fifty percent, you lose, is that just lost or do they have other ways of utilizing it? FP: I imagine they make dog food and stuff out of it. Then they got the hide which they sell. BD: If you were going to start your life over, would you do what you have done, or would you change things around? FP: You would start over and do the same thing right over. If you knew now what you could have known then, why, then, you could make some improvements on things. BD: What, around the farm you mean? FP: Yeah, look at the losses you have now. If you could have seen back you could have changed it. BD: These losses, you mean losses due to bad crops, and that. FP: Yes, drop in cattle prices. BD: I was wondering if you had a few minutes, if you could take the time and explain to me how your watering system was. FP: Well we get our water from the mountains, which comes down and divided up into streams for us, which is generally about six foot second stream. We flood irrigate most of it except for grain and we make furrows on it. Then we generally water four or five times for our first crop, two or three times for the second, and we generally don't get a third. Then we water our pasture ground which we turn around and cut for hay. BD: Now, how is this water divided, you just take and use what you want to use. FP: No, they got a water system on it where they when the creek gets so high. It starts out with A until we got so much water in the creek then it goes on B and then on C. Then when it all gets up so high, they all got water, you know. BD: So A water is the water that is the lowest part of the creek? 7 FP: Yeah, it is the best water right. BD: Do you have A water? FP: Yes, mostly A. Maybe that is the reason I'm partial. But we got our rights according to the farms we got, which is pretty near all A water. And even on the drought this year, we should be able to water it over. BD: Not as much though? FP: Not as on a good year. BD: Now, are there some people that don't have any A water and have to go without this year? FP: Yeah. BD: About what percentage would you say don't have any A water and won't have any crops at all this year? FP: Oh, it wouldn't be over one percent of the people. Just about everybody has got at least some of the water. As far as I know there is only about two up on our creek that don't have. That is George Gorder and Albert Smith. And all the rest of them have got some A. BD: Now these water shares, how are the shares counted. Did they just decide that there were that many hours in the summer or something or? FP: I don't know how they set that up, Bruce, that was before my time. You got me. The A water is assessed more than the B. The B waters more than the C. And it costs you that way to buy it. BD: Now, do you have to pay so much a year for these water rights? FP: Yeah, and it’s assessed that way, you pay more for the A than you do for the others, BD: Now just for kind of a reference, how much would you say a water, a share of A water cost you a year for assessment? FP: About 3% of the value of it. They figure that the A water is worth about $75 per share. BD: So 3% would be about Two and a half dollars per share? FP: Yes. 8 BD: So if you had, let me ask you how many shares you have? FP: We got forty-one of A. BD: So that could run into a good-- FP: Sizeable chip of money. BD: Now, I ask you about the grazing here, just a minute ago. You have to pay fees every year for grazing cattle, plus having a permit. What do your fees run you usually or is that-- FP: No. They're rising all the time, mostly on the BLM forest. But I'll let you figure it out. They are about $106 this year for the forest and the BLM and we run about 23 head on the forest from the first of June till about the fifteenth of October. BD: So that is not exactly cheap. FP: No, but if you had to buy hay for them, I think it is real cheap. BD: What would it cost you to buy hay and feed them for a week or a month or that? FP: It would cost you just a bale for every five head every day. BD: And what does a bale of hay cost you? FP: Well, generally along about a dollar and a quarter. But it will be more than that this year, because it is an exceptionally bad year. BD: You said that this was an exceptionally bad year, and an exceptionally dry year. Is this just about the driest you can remember? FP: It is the driest I can remember. BD: Do you think that if there is another year as dry as this, like next year, would it put a lot of people out of business? FP: Probably, yes. It would hurt a lot of people. 9 BD: Switch subjects now on you. Now these fires that are burning, do you think you lost any of your cattle in the fires? FP: Well, they said so, but I haven't seen any yet. BD: Now if they are lost, you just stand the loss? FP: Yes, you stand the loss. BD: Now will your range assessment go up, do you think to pay the cost of fighting these fires? FP: No, I don't think so. We will probably get a big cut on our cattle next year. BD: How many cattle do you think you have lost in these fires? FP: I don't know, Bruce, we looked around and haven't seen any. But they said that they had some up Indian Creek, so it is hard to say what is burned up and if it is burned them up, you won't be able to tell because they would be burnt too much to tell if they are yours or not. Only thing we can do is wait until we get them home and count them. BD: But you are talking about a three or four hundred dollars apiece cattle? FP: Yes. BD: So it wouldn't take many of those to really ruin a year. FP: No. They figure now, that this year that the cow and calf is a pair. And when the calf is born they are worth $350. So it could run in to quite a bit of money. But I think you are more apt to lose the calves than the cows. BD: Appreciate you talking to me. Is there anything you would like to say? FP: Except you are going to have a mess. BD: That's life. FP: The fees if you can write down what it costs you to ride them all year, per month. BD: I am just more or less interested to see what it cost you per year kind of thing. I always thought farming was cheap, but you know. 10 FP: But look at our taxes, Bruce. We made the Improvements, but when Ven and I first bought part of dad's place it was we give, was paying $80 taxes. BD: That’s per year? FP: Yeah, now they have gone up to five hundred. BD: Just on that? FP: No, on what we got all together of course, we been bought more ground and boy that has really jumped. BD: You haven't developed your ground though? FP: No. They said they got a new system out now where you can put them on green belt and lower your taxes, have you heard about that? BD: Yeah, I've heard about that. Unless the law is properly written, which the one in the State of Utah isn't, I think it would turn around and hurt you more. This is my personal opinion. That of a back side lawyer, so to speak. You advocate here then, an overwhelming rate of taxes here in the state at least? For property value and that. I'll ask you outright. Do you think Governor Rampton has done a fair job or--? FP: No, he has been a heavy guy for us. BD: Do you want to make specifics there if you can? FP: No, just in the way he talks. I don't think he is at all for the farmer. BD: Do you think this state would be better than ever if the people in power aren't the farmers. FP: That's true. They are the little guys in the state. Most of the states where they got this land and that is where the money they got a little more pull than where it’s poor like it is here. BD: So you think that the government,to you then, is very unviable on this kind of hand out and taking your money? 11 FP: That's true. I think these wheat growers and that are making good off of it. Like when I was down there working for Dr. Crestworth, he says we can't grow anything anyway, here he says, here they are paying us the subsidy and we can't grow it and we make money, which was not true with all the guys. BD: Now you have never taken any subsidy money or anything for not growing. FP: No. BD: Do you feel that this is dishonest, don't you? FP: Oh, I think they could arrange it to something better than what they are doing. BD: By arranging something better, what would you propose? FP: Well, I think the little man should get some of that money instead of it all going to the bigger farmer. Same way with a lot of this subsidy on this wool and wheat and the little person doesn't grow these kinds of crops anyway and the big guy has already got it which they don't need. BD: So, there is a saying that I've heard that the government has allowed the mall farmer to subsidize but not to prosper. FP: That seems about right. 12