Oral History Program Louis Warlaumont Interviewed by Reva Brittain 10 August 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Louis Warlaumont Interviewed by Reva Brittain 10 August 1971 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Warlaumont, Louis, an oral history by Reva Brittain, 10 August 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an interview with Louis Warlaumont. The interview was conducted on August 10th, 1971, by Reva Brittain, in the home of the interviewee located at 3035 Kiler Avenue in Ogden, Utah. Mr. Warlaumont discusses his knowledge of the Catholic Church, its recent changes, and parochial education in Utah. RB: This is an interview of Lou Warlaumont by the Utah Historical Society of the Weber State College and the California State Oral History Society by Reva Brittain at Mr. Warlaumont's home on 3035 Kiler Avenue in Ogden, Utah, at about 6:15 in the evening on August 10th, 1971. Mr. Warlaumont, will you first of all tell us something about your early life? LW: Like, you mean, I was born in Cheyenne, Wyoming? RB: Hm-huh. How long you've lived here. LW: I was born on May the 20th, 1912, my parents moved to Ogden in June of 1925. I had the usual boyhood experiences up to that time that anybody would normally have. RB: You came to Ogden in 1925? LW: 1925. RB: Did you attend school in Ogden High? LW: Yes. I went to Ogden High School. I started at Central Junior High School in 1925. I went there two years. I went to Ogden High School and graduated in 1929. RB: Now since we are talking on the basis of the Catholic community, could you tell us, were you baptized here and what were your experiences in church? 1 LW: I was baptized in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and when my parents came here I attended mass regularly. And this was about the size of it. Until as I grew older, of course, I became more identified with Catholic people but nothing worthy of notice really. RB: Then actually you have been a resident of Ogden since 1925 haven't you? LW: Yes. RB: You're family's grown up here then. LW: Yes. RB: As you look back, can you recall any special events in the Church that were of interest to you? LW: Oh, the Ordination of the Bishop, and I can't remember the Bishop's name but it seems to me it was Bishop Needy. When I came here the bishop was Bishop Glass. Of course, there's been several changes in the pastors in St. Joseph's parish to which I belong. When we came here Father Christenham was the pastor, and then as he grew older or died, I can't remember which, then Father Kennedy was the pastor. Then Father Kennedy was transferred back to Salt Lake then Father Jouruh was the Pastor. And as I remember he died just prior to World War II, and Father Kennedy came back as the Pastor and he's still the pastor of this parish. RB: That's Monsignor Kennedy. LW: Monsignor Kennedy, yes. RB: When you mentioned the Ordination of the Bishop, did that occur in Salt Lake City? LW: Yes, that was in Salt Lake City. 2 RB: Was it quite a pageant? Was there quite a lot of pageantry? LW: Oh, yes. It was quite a ceremonious occasion. I didn't attend myself, my mother attended. When she came back of course she was quite interested and quite thrilled that she had been party to an Ordination because she was an officer in the local Catholic women's organization. RB: Can you recall what happened in World War II, around that time? LW: In World War II of course I was in the service in World War II so I wasn't identified with any local Catholic activities at the time. RB: Did you go into the services from here? LW: Yes, I was drafted from Ogden. RB: When you were overseas, was there always a Catholic chaplain? LW: Yeah, pretty much. The thing is in the States I was in Galanteal, Idaho, and we had a Catholic chaplain there along with two or three other chaplains from other denominations. But when I was shipped overseas, peculiar enough there was an LDS chaplain on the boat that I went overseas on. That was in Italy. And as soon as I got to Italy I was immediately put in an organization and they happened to have a Catholic chaplain in the group that I was assigned to. RB: I expect the LDS chaplain was glad to see someone from Utah, at least if you were to question him. LW: Yes, I imagine so. 3 RB: The Ogden Church is kind of old and well-established parish. Is it about second in the State? LW: About what? RB: Is it about second in the State? LW: Oh, I don't know. Probably is. The original church was down on 26 and Grant, and sometime they bought, I imagine, or acquired the land up on and Adams and they built a church there now. The church was built, and it seems to me it was built in the 1890's. And the priest at the time was Father Christenham. He was the pastor of the parish at the time that the church was built. I believe Bishop Skaman was the Bishop. RB: I don't recall reading of him. LW: I think he was the first Catholic bishop assigned to Utah. For several years, Utah was a mission state and I don't know whether they were serviced out of Denver or out of California. I just don't know. RB: Well, it's recorded in here, isn't it? LW: Yeah. Some of the books on the Church history of Utah certainly would have this. RB: Is the membership in St. Joseph's more or less stationary, permanent, or do they have a great deal like some of the other churches have? LW: I think it's quite a permanent membership. It's not too transient. At any rate, the people that I have known are pretty much permanent here. They don't have too many in-andouters. RB: Do the military, the people from Hillfield, do they attend St. Joseph's? 4 LW: To my knowledge, not too much. I think that they have their own services out at Hillfield or most of them probably drive to the parish out in Layton, which is St. Rose of Lima. RB: Do you remember when St. Mary's was established? LW: Shortly after World War II, I can't tell you the exact year. RB: Do you suppose that it was established and part of the people transferred from St. Joseph's over to St. Mary's? LW: Yes, hm-huh. There were because I remember prior to World War II the parish consisted of all the people, all the Catholic people in Weber County. This would take all the people west of Washington Avenue as far as it would go and I think most of those people down in that area now belong to St. Mary's parish including the people out in Rory. How far north they go, I don't know. RB: They used to have a church in Brigham City. LW: Yes. There's also a parish at St. James's. Now this is out on Harrison and 1st, or Harrison and North Street. This is a spinoff from St. Joseph's Parish. It was developed about 1963, shortly after we came here as a family. RB: These new parishes were probably the result of new people coming in and the expansion. LW: Yes. The expansion of population or to more centralize the parish so that the people wouldn't have so far to go to attend a parish. RB: Do you suppose that some of them may have come in to work at Hillfield and others in Internal Revenue? 5 LW: Hillfield probably, yes. The Internal Revenue was quite a bit after this. The institution of Internal Revenue was quite a bit later than St. James. RB: Did you— Oh, you did attend Ogden High, didn't you? LW: Yes. RB: Did your children attend school at St. Joseph's? LW: No. None of the children went to St. Joseph's High School. I have one girl and one boy went to St. Joseph's Elementary School for two years. A problem of transportation developed so that we had to put them in public school nearer our house. RB: Are you aware or do you know about this federal aid to parochial schools? LW: I'm aware that there wasn't supposed to be any federal aid to parochial schools. RB: They're talking about it you know. At least John Kennedy. It's a subject that's being discussed. LW: As I remember, the Supreme Court decision about two months ago decided there would be no federal aid to parochial schools as such. But the federal government could still give grants to higher education, colleges without any stigma of aid to parochial schools being attached. RB: Will that leave out the local parochial high schools and elementary? LW: Well, my understanding is that it will. Now whether they ever participate in a federal grant I don't know. But I don't think they did. RB: I think it was just suggested. LW: I don't think the local Catholic schools have ever gotten any federal money. 6 RB: There are lots of children involved. LW: There are a great number of children under federally impacted population but it didn't seem to make any difference. RB: Would you like to discuss with me the basic beliefs of the Catholic Church? LW: Ask me questions. RB: I think in the history book the beliefs are considered, the different sacraments I think. LW: Well, they have seven sacraments. RB: That's it. LW: They start with Baptism which is actually the baptizing of the baby, the infant. And this is pretty much an infant thing with native born Catholics. It takes place in infancy the first two or three or four weeks of the infant’s life. Then at the age of seven, what the Catholic Church terms the "understanding of the use of reason by a child," they have the Penance, not Penance but... I can’t think of the name. Anyway, it's when you go to Confession. And they confess their sins to a priest who is a representative of Christ and at the same time they have the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist which is the receiving of what the Catholic Church terms the Body and Blood of Christ through a communion. They call it communion. And at the age of twelve or thirteen depending on the availability of a Bishop or a priest that's qualified they have a sacrament called Confirmation which is the actual confirming of the child into the Church itself. Then they go on. There's matrimony which is marriage. And then there's Holy Orders which is not a compulsory sacrament, but it's taken when a person goes into the Orders as a priest being ordained, taking the Holy Orders, or a nun takes the Holy Orders. Then there's 7 Extreme Unction which is the last rites of the church. And this is about the size of it that I remember. It seems to me there's another one. That's all, there's only seven. I had a Catholic education up to the sixth grade, including the sixth grade. And of course these things come from studying the catechism. RB: The children who attend the public schools get a rather adequate education on the weekends, don’t they, on Saturdays? LW: Well, they get an education, whether it's inadequate or not is a matter of opinion. But they're pretty well grounded in the Canon Law and the laws of the church, the requirements, the spiritual benefits to be gathered. RB: Do the children about the sixth grade attend religious services on Saturday? LW: Yes. Well, on Saturdays or weekdays. They have classes on Wednesday afternoon. For junior high schools and high school students they have classes in the evenings up at St. Joseph's High School and St. Joseph's grammar school. RB: As a member of the church would you discuss with me what you notice since the changes of the Vatican Council. LW: Oh, there've been several changes in the Liturgy and they seem to have shortened some of the ceremonies considerably, but whether it's beneficial or not I just can't say. I think it's a matter of personal opinion. In my own opinion it isn't too beneficial. I prefer the old way myself. But were I younger, I may not think that way. RB: And what did you prefer about the old method? LW: More ceremony, more meaty. It seemed like there was more to it than there is now. RB: Do you miss the Latin? 8 LW: Yeah, I think I do, I think I do. Of course I was a Latin student in school and I like Latin and I think I miss it. RB: Do you suppose it will be more understandable for the youngsters coming up who have not had any Latin? LW: Oh, I think so. I think that young people today have to have more that they can really see. They're not as prone to believe in faith, or have the faith in things they don't know about as people of maybe two or three generations ago. RB: That seems to be part of a generation gap. LW: I think so. RB: Do you notice the lay leadership in the Church having an effect? LW: Not really. There is, of course, actually in Ogden there is no lay leadership. They have lay people that are more included in the ceremonies of the Church more than they were in the past, but as to actual leadership, no. They're mostly auxiliary people. RB: Well, the things in the Church have lasted a long time and they will continue a long time so probably this trend will move slowly and the lay leadership may... LW: I think so. RB: Do you suppose they need to be trained? Do you suppose the lay members have never participated and that they need the new generation coming up to be trained? LW: I couldn't say. I have an opinion on this but I'd rather not express it. RB: Do you suppose appreciation will develop and possibly the leadership will develop? LW: Possibly. 9 RB: Have you noticed since the Council any increase in the ecumenical movement? LW: Oh, slightly. Not to any really appreciable degree, although I think there's a little more understanding ecumenically than there was before. But living in an area where there is a dominant church and it is not a Catholic church, you don't see too much ecumenism. RB: Well, do you suppose that's another thing that time will implement? LW: I'd say possibly. This is as much as I would venture on it. RB: This thing in the church has been going on for so long, that maybe it will slowly develop into something. LW: Yeah. It will either go one way or the other. They will either become more dominant or they will retrogress to the point where they disappear. But not in my generation. RB: You are speaking of the Catholic Church. LW: I don't think the Catholic Church in this part of the country will ever grow to, get down to nothing, but I don't think it will. I don't think it's going to improve or grow any more than it is now either due to the fact that there is a dominant religion of another sect. RB: Have you noticed the feeling, don't you think there's sort of an ecumenical feeling among the people of this city, the people you meet everywhere? LW: There may be a little more curiosity among other people about the way Catholics function, but I don't think this is due too much to the Church itself. I think it is due to the publicity that the ecumenical council has generated and the fact that they've started a monastery up here in Huntsville in the last twenty years and of course this excites a lot of curiosity among non-Catholics. But yet they're only curious. They really don't have any objectivity. They would just like to know what goes on. That's about the size of it. 10 RB: There's always a feeling about the monastery, a feeling of the presence of God. Really, it just has to have an influence, don't you think, on the people of the community? LW: Well, I think it has an influence on the people of this community to this extent. The people who visit up there are influenced but the average person in Ogden, the average non-Catholic person in Ogden probably doesn't feel like driving the seventeen or eighteen miles it takes to go up there to just go up there and see what they can see, when there's really nothing to see. The monks pretty much live to themselves and they don’t want too much interference with their activities and as a result they don't parade their activities out in public. This not only applies to the non-Catholic population it also applies to the Catholic population. RB: Well, having this organization in the community is bound to have good effects on it. LW: Oh, I think so. RB: It couldn't help because good things rub off. Religion rubs off. LW: Yeah. Anything good is that much to the good. RB: I'm sure this would have to help. As a layman, was there any other reforms than the Vatican Council that you'd like to discuss? LW: Oh, no, not really. I don't think that— you’d have to give me some specific instances. RB: Well, for instance, actually there weren't very many that were passed, those were discussed. I was thinking perhaps have you noticed your clergy, your bishop, having more to say. I’d understand the bishops are supposedly being granted more to say in the worldwide church of theirs. Have you noticed anything like that? 11 LW: Not as far as the local bishop is concerned. I read the magazines and everything else like everybody else does and I know, I don't know, but I read about what's being done around the world in a sense. And I think the bishops do have a little more to say about actual operation of the church than they have before. And my own personal feeling is that it isn't quite a democratic organization. The Catholic Church itself is rather dictatorial thing, but I think religion should be dictatorial. RB: It was established before democracy. LW: Yeah. RB: And it does work according to the methods of the time when it was established. LW: Yeah. Well, of course I don't think they should go back to the times of the Inquisition or anything like this but I don't think that lay people should have too much to say about the operation of the church per se. I think that they should abide by the rules of the church and they should participate in the religious ceremonies that are required, but it's up to the people. I mean it's a matter of conscience. This is the big thing. If you want to participate or if you don't, all right. This is a matter for your own conscience. I don't know whether you want personal interpolations here or not. RB: Deleted . LW: Oh, well, that's what I meant by that. RB: Is there anything else you'd like to discuss? Anything you'd like to say in summary? Well, thank you Mr. Warlaumont. This has been very helpful, I’m sure. 12