Oral History Program Frank Francis Jr. Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Frank Francis Jr. Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master’s Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Francis, Frank Jr., an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Frank Francis Jr. Mr. Francis discusses working in the Ogden State Bank at the time of the Depression, the reasons for the bank closure, and the importance of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. He also recalls playing in the orchestra at the White City ballroom. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: I’d like to talk to you a bit about your recollections of the Depression from about 1929, and the things that followed it until about 1939. Would you please, for the record, give us your full name? FF: Frank Francis Jr. MT: And where were you working during that particular time? FF: I was working at the Ogden State Bank, in Ogden, Utah. MT: What was your position at the bank at that time? FF: I was a teller at the time of the closing of the bank. I had worked in practically all of the departments, however, prior to that time. MT: What do you recall about the situation and the circumstances [around] the closing of the bank? FF: It was entirely a case of, primarily, gossip. Of course the conditions were getting bad with the banking business all over the United States at that time. A lot of banks were running into failures, and, of course, what actually started our run on our bank was outside gossip. A few people would come in and take their money out, and then a few more, and tell someone else, “You’d better go in; the bank isn’t safe.” So the first thing we knew – of course the stock market problem and all that had a general economic effect on the whole area – people were losing 2 faith in the bankers, as well as Wall Street and everything. So that went on for about a solid week. We had a bank of about $8.5 million, total deposits. And when it failed – the State Bank Department closed it on account of we were running out of money, primarily, so we closed on August 31, 1931. Then we tried to re-open again through RFC and the Federal Reserve Board, primarily, and we couldn’t get any help from the banks around here. But they were having their problems, too. So we were all in the same boat, more or less, only we were running out of money. So the bank commissioners finally decided to close the doors. We’d run out of practically all our gold reserve. We had 100,000 $20 gold pieces that we were out of. MT: Were you members of the Federal Reserve System? FF: No, we were not. We were a state non-member bank like this one is now. This one was in the Federal Reserve System, too, but we resigned from the Federal Reserve System several years ago. It was of no real value to us, as far as our banking business was concerned, and we use the reserves for investment purposes. MT: Do you feel that, at that time, it would have been an advantage to you to have been a member of the Federal Reserve? FF: It would have been to no advantage. It would have been an advantage if we had been a member of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which came along in 1934. That would have been a real advantage because you wouldn’t have had the run. The deposits would have been insured, so that was quite a factor – primarily the loss of faith, you know. 3 MT: Do you remember anything in particular in connection with the bank holiday, which Roosevelt used to close the banks for that period of time? FF: Well, that was for just a few days that he had them closed, you know. And I think that the public in general had the feeling that it was the salvation of the nation. In other words, the banks were getting desperate. The larger banks were getting into trouble then. And of course that would have ruined the entire banking system because little banks ... well, it was the only thing that could have been done at the time. We’d have probably had a catastrophe in this nation. Now this bank, the Ogden State Bank, that liquidated out at about 67 or 68 percent, I’m not sure which – that goes to show you that even in your distress time... things like your agricultural products... your lambs, your best sound-mouth ewes were selling for about $2 a head. Hogs and cattle were very cheap, but we still liquidated out at a very acceptable figure, even during the Depression. So it shouldn’t have been closed in the first place. But, at that time, you couldn’t get any help any place. MT: Most of your business, would it have been rural or city, or...? FF: We had both. We were known primarily as a country bank. We did considerable agricultural business, canning business, and we made a lot of real estate loans. We had a trust department, trust services, and a lot of retail paper – automobiles and so on. It was a highly diversified bank or we wouldn’t have liquidated at 68 percent. MT: This is a phenomenal figure. With my small understanding of the banking business, it seems next to impossible for a bank to ever liquidate everything. 4 FF: Well, it’s impossible. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation paid off 100 percent to practically every bank that failed from 1934 on, and even now the last 18 banks that have failed in this nation, they’ve paid off almost 100 percent to the depositors. So by taking a little time and effort, most of these loans will liquidate out unless there are problems involved, which we had in the bank up here in Coalville. That makes a little different situation. MT: What effect did the closing of the Ogden State Bank have on you personally? FF: I was quite fortunate. I was a professional musician, and I had work at night. I was employed in the liquidation, and then I was kept on during the liquidation of the bank. So I spent two years undoing all of what we had done for the past 10 or 20 years in the liquidation process. And that’s figuring up furniture and cattle and sheep and cars, and everything you can think of. It was a most frightening experience to have, to see the disintegration. MT: As you went around on your liquidation process, what were some of the things that were most difficult for you to perform? Did you have resistance from the people when you went to secure the things that you were after? FF: No, I would say that most of them tried to cooperate. We didn’t want their assets. We didn’t want their cattle or sheep. We didn’t want to foreclose on their homes. Most of them worked out, but we had some, of course, that were obstinate, too. We’d have to get a court order and go and repossess. So there were some of the terrifying things, like I say. To see a family destitute, and have to have them lose their livestock or their cow, or whatever their livelihood was. I don’t want to go through those days again, I tell you. They were terrible. A lot of people were 5 out of work. Farm products were of no value, and the prices were cut way down, and with lack of employment, it was a tough situation. MT: You say that you were a musician. Did you play at places like White City? FF: I played there six years. In fact, I studied under Red Nichols’s father, and I knew Red. He’s a very close personal friend of mine. I played up there. He just left to go back East, and I played in the band, I guess, about six years altogether. MT: Who managed the White City while you were there? Do you remember? FF: Yes, Harmon Peery. MT: Now, his family still owns the property there, don’t they? FF: It’s in the Peery Estate, yes. They’ve sold most of it. Of course, that’s been sold to the Wilberry’s, you know. They bought the property up there, and the Ben Lomond Hotel, and other commercial properties around Ogden. MT: How large of crowds do you remember being in the White City ballroom? FF: Well, in those days, I’d probably say it wouldn’t be unusual to have 1,000 people in there, maybe greater than that. We had it extended out to an outside dance floor, too, you know. It was a very popular dancing pavilion. MT: How large an area would it have drawn from? FF: Well, I’d say the whole northern part of the state – Brigham City, and Logan, and up north. We had a lot of people come from there, and some from Salt Lake but not too many. MT: Where did Salt Lakers go, primarily, for their dances then? FF: The Bluebird. MT: Now then, would you have been known as a member of the White City 6 orchestra? FF: Well, we didn’t call it that; we went by a different name. The name of the orchestra that we used, you see. Like, I played with a fellow by the name of Jack Passey, and he worked in the band that I worked in at that time. We both played in the dance bands. MT: Are there other members of your banking staff, at that time, officers and so forth, that would still be available to talk with? FF: No, they’re pretty well scattered. This Jack Passey is a real estate man in San Jose. David Davis, I understand, is in Salt Lake, and is very successful, and Walter Farr also. MT: When do you feel that the Depression started to ease in this area? FF: I believe it was along about the time of the organization of the TVA [Tennessee Valley Authority], National Recovery Act, at that time. I’d say it started easing then. We gained a little confidence back in the country, and people were going to work, and a different feeling... And the banking business was getting stronger, and the Federal Deposit Insurance was in the picture. So I’d say it started easing about 1934, actually. MT: Would you give me a few of your ideas on how important the psychological feeling of people is in Depression and recovery and so forth? FF: Well, it’s always been the same situation. When there’s fear of work, people are inclined to save their money and not touch it, and there are many cases of that now, where people are not spending their money on account of fear of being out of employment. I’d say it’s the fear factor more than anything. Of course there’s 7 no fear about bank failures any more. That’s one great stabilizer, of course. If we didn’t have insurance on deposits, I think there would be problems in the country. MT: Do you see any similar situations to what existed during the ‘20s prior to the crash of the stock market that might be present today? FF: Well, I think so. I think there’s a lot of unemployment like there was then, a lot of people out of work. I think the same indications are here; and, of course, the government’s able to offset these factors now with various means. Of course, like I say, the insured deposits and the Federal Reserve Board make money more accessible. They can control it pretty well now, but the same factors, the underlying factors, are still present, I think. There’s still fear, and I don’t think people have started spending their money yet. They’re selling more cars now, but that’s probably an indication of the old cars being worn out, more of a case of necessity... MT: Do you think of any amusing incidents that occurred during that particular time? FF: I had quite an experience one night with a skunk. I came home with my tuxedo on back to a canyon home where I was living, and I thought it was a cat. So I got the kids’ little chair, and I was going to crack it on the head, and it turned out to be a skunk. So they called me Skunk Francis for about two or three years. Even the manager here because I went to the bank with only my shoes on – it’s all I had left out of my [dressy] clothes. We had to move out of the cabin that night. So I sent my tuxedo to the cleaners, and they sent it back and said, “Don’t you dare be sending an item like this into us, or we’ll be suing you.” And so it was quite interesting. The only thing I had left out of my clothes I had was my shoes, 8 and so they could smell the skunk in the bank. Finally they found out where it was coming from. So the president of the bank gave me $10 and told me, “You’d better go out and buy yourself a pair of shoes.” MT: Could you get a fairly good pair of shoes for that price? FF: Well, that would be top grade. They cost about $5 was all. He just handed me $10 and told me to get some shoes. MT: Now, is there anything else that you recall that you think might be interesting? FF: Well, there was a great deal of distress in those days. My father was the mayor of Ogden in 1926 and was elected three terms. He had a great many problems in City Hall at that time. Of course we had the bootleggers in those days, and we had a vote on a municipality- owned power plant that only lost by 37 votes. That was an interesting thing – how people were pushed for money and complaining about the electric bills – that was one of the factors, and so on. And he was a columnist for the Standard-Examiner, and he wrote for some 40 years. He would write about the distress of the time. The Salvation Army was very busy, and there were bread lines and things of that sort in different areas. MT: What type of column was he writing? FF: He was editor; he called it “News and Views.” It was a front page column with short paragraphs covering a wide variety of fields, medicine...and the economy and different things – current events primarily. What was happening to the people, and so forth. MT: What years would that have covered? FF: Prior to the Depression. He died in 1945, so he was editor when we had the 9 bank failure. MT: Would he have written something about the bank failure? FF: Oh yes. I have a scrapbook which is quite a large collection of his writings, and any time you care to look at that, you can feel free to do so. That would take you back through those days. It could give you the complete story of the area through that time.