Oral History Program Jackie Crowther Interviewed by Nancy Goodsell 27 November 2011 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Jackie Crowther Interviewed by Nancy Goodsell 27 November 2011 Copyright © 2011 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Jackie Crowther, an oral history by Nancy Goodsell, 27 November 2011, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral interview with Jackie Crowther. It was conducted in her home, by Nancy Goodsell, on November 27, 2011. In this interview, Jackie discusses her time at the Topaz relocation camp during World War II. NG: Thank you Jackie. JC: Well, it was actually called the relocation camp, instead of internment camp. So what is your question? NG: When were you there? JC: Well my dad went down there in the summer of 1942 and to work as a procurement officer at the relocation camp Topaz, which is about sixteen miles outside of Delta. NG: Sixteen? JC: Yes, sixteen miles out of Delta. When there was housing mother and I went down there in the fal. I am thinking it was September or October that she and I went down there. I was only about eighteen months. We lived in some barracks, but not the administration barracks yet. Mother and I came back in the late fall of 1945. NG: And what are your mother’s and father’s names? JC: My father was Doren Benjamin Boyce and my mother was Mildred Moss Boyce. Dad was raised in Salt Lake City, an old ‘East Higher’, and mother was raised in Woods Cross. NG: Do you have any memories of your time out there? 1 JC: Most the memories that I have are more of what I have heard all of my life, since we left the camp. I can remember going and visiting people, playing with friends and church. I remember being in the barracks or out playing in the dirt, or going to the train station to get the bananas my grandma would send me because she thought I was starving. NG: In your family talking about your time out there was something that you did? JC: Oh, yes. My parents did not approve of what happened to the Japanese people. It was a common conversation piece after we came back from the camp. There was communication with a lot of those that were in the administration as well as some of these Japanese people that we made friends with out there. So it was part of my life growing up. NG: And that is in contrast with a lot of the Japanese people out there, they didn't talk about it once they left? JC: They did not talk about it with their families. In fact, generations later, they would start finding out about it but they didn't hear about it from their parents. Once they left the camp, most of them just closed the door. They didn't want to remember it. The younger kids did not really hear about it much unless they came across things in the attic or the garage then in later years they started asking about it. There were, of course, some who would keep bringing it up, so the kids became aware of it. But really it was about the next two generations before they started thinking, “Hey there needs to be some restitution for what our families have lost,” because most of them had farms and businesses along the coast and they lost everything. 2 NG: So those camps serviced what area? JC: I don't know if I can tell you that exactly. I know that a lot of them were from the San Francisco/Berkley areas that were at Topaz. But how they defined who went where, you know, I guess I need to read up on that. But I know that most of them, once they were arrested, so to speak were put there in the Tranforan Racetrack area and many of them right in the stalls; until the camp was ready for them. They loaded them on trains and took them to Delta and then bused them to Topaz. NG: Can you describe what Topaz was like? I mean the area around it. JC: Topaz is in the desert -- sagebrush and dust. I think it was a one mile square, and it housed between eight thousand and ten thousand people. NG: Wow. JC: There was barbed wire around it. There were guard towers, and there was a big water tower. Once they got the housing pretty well finished, the people moved into them. There would be about four apartments to each barrack and there would be two barracks and then there would be a latrine, a common area -- you know with the latrine and washing facilities for laundry -- and then another two barracks in each block, if I remember that right. NG: So it was literally out in the middle of nowhere? JC: It was literally out in the middle of nowhere, yes. NG: Do you have any stories that you heard growing up that you would like to share? JC: You mean about me, like telling my mother, “Lets go knock on doors?” 3 NG: Sure, or about people that were there. What did you talk about when you did talk about Topaz? JC: Well, there was one family out there, the Haranos, that were good friends and she and mother worked in the Girl Scouts together. Mother basically taught her how to administrate the Girls Scouts, you know, and the activities and showed her how to make it work. So there was a good bond there. That doesn't mean to say they invited us into their home, because there were very stark furnishings and they were ashamed of them. One year for Christmas the Haranos did come to our apartment and had dinner with us. After they left the camp they went to Nebraska, and worked in a floral shop. Impie would write Mother notes and letters, for Easter, Christmas, and for different holidays telling about all the different things she did. She had children that were very educated. One son-inlaw was a minister, one worked in Guam and she had a college professor in the family. She traveled all over, well in to her nineties. Every year for Christmas they would send us a big poinsettia, and it wasn't a puny one. It was just neat to feel that love between the two families. There was another lady, Laura Shutte that took a liking to me, you know, and she gave me this little chair with Mexican art on it, a blue seat. Just a sweet lady. There were, of course, some of the administration staff that we associated with. Our families would go out in the desert looking for shells or arrowheads, and have a picnic. I have a picture of us with the big sun bonnets on. It was like a pioneer sun bonnet that mother had on, sitting there in the sagebrush having a picnic, and we thought it was okay. NG: So the shells because it was Lake Bonneville? 4 JC: Yes, big Lake Bonneville was there at one time. They gathered those shells and they made jewelry and other beautiful things. They would take scraps of wood that they found around, from the old packing boxes and things and they carved birds. They would carve ornaments to decorate their homes. They did make some things to sell, kind of like a craft show. They would have programs for them to give them something to do. Mime Obata was a famous artist. He taught at Berkley. Even with his position at the university he was still sent to the relocation camp. He would teach art, and a lot of people learn to do paint out there in the desert. NG: So they had stuff for them to do? What about the youth? Did they have activities and stuff for them to do? JC: Oh yes, they had activities for them. As the camp developed they had two elementary schools and a high school for them. They would have their different religious festivals. They would play ball. They had football teams. They did have school for the Japanese kids out there. NG: Would you have attended school if you were old enough there? JC: I was thinking that, and I think it was because of my cousin that moved out there with us. He was about twelve, he went into Delta. I think most of the administration kids, at least in high school, went out to Delta. I know the Bell's, their sons just roomed out there in Delta and went to high school there. In fact I was just reading Gladys Bell's little memories of Topaz she said their oldest boy – of course it was all Mormon, and they weren't Mormon – he was liked well enough that he was president of the Seminary class, which I thought was 5 interesting. He actually stayed there after they left camp and finished up his school year and graduated from Delta and then he joined the service. I was thinking this little preschool that I went to was mostly the administration, but as I was rereading the little story Mother wrote, she said that David Pratt and I went to the preschool with a Japanese teacher and a room full of little Japanese children. We were the only two white ones. So I guess I did. NG: That is cool. JC: I did go to preschool – that would have been when I was four. NG: Shortly after that was when they broke up the camp? JC: Yes. It wasn’t too long after that. The camp was pretty well disbanded by December of 1945. My dad started getting draft notices in the summer of 1945. He had to have his physical and all of that. Meanwhile they were putting in deferments applications, because by that time he was the financial officer of the camp and they needed him out there to close those records. He prepared to be drafted. He never had to go, because at that point the war ended. He helped close up camp and then we moved to Ogden. NG: When they closed up camp they literally took everything away? JC: Pretty well. Most of the people already had been relocated inland. So the barracks was moved to the area around Delta, as sheds, storage units and even housing on the farms. My aunt and uncle, Jean and Dail Averett, made one of those units their house in Mount Pleasant. I still haven’t figured out how they got it from Delta. I guess they would have brought it from Delta through to Nephi, 6 through the pass to Mount Pleasant and up through that canyon. I would have like to have seen that. NG: That would have been cool. JC: It could have been that they collapsed the walls and put them on a flatbed. I don't remember how they could have done that. NG: It could have been they had premade the walls they put the up and they came apart the same way. Then they stack up on the truck. JC: You know I have a cousin that might remember how they did that. There was a lot of married student housing at the university made from those barracks. NG: Up at the University of Utah? JC: The University of Utah. In fact, I can remember seeing them when I was in high school. They were put to use. NG: If you went out there now you wouldn't see anything? JC: No, there's a monument out there. I haven’t been out there since I was about fifteen and that would have been in the fifties. There was just some of the cement footings and pads. I need to go see what is out there now. I know there is a monument and of course it been a target for sharp shooters, so to speak. NG: Interesting. JC: I think the experience was good for our family. Where we lived in Woods Cross and Salt Lake there wasn't a lot different cultures. This was one of those experiences that made you appreciate people of different ethnic backgrounds. NG: You mentions a little bit about different ceremonies. Were they allowed to practice different religions? 7 JC: They could practice any religion they were. They had the Buddhist ceremonies. There were many different Christian congregations, Methodist, Presbyterian, and others. Of course, a lot of the administration would attend these same churches. Sometimes they might have gone into Delta or over to Abraham or Hinckley, but I think most of the time they attended at the camp. I know that Gladys Bell did. The man that was the first LDS branch president was a school teacher and at the end of the school year he left the camp. My dad became the branch president for the Topaz Branch. I think that there were maybe thirty or forty people at the most that were LDS out there. They were not allowed to proselyte. They could just be good examples. NG: You would just meet in one of the common areas? JC: We would meet in one of the common areas or one of the recreation halls of the barracks and use a couple of rooms there. Sometimes it would be after one of the other religions would have their meeting. They had those festivals and things. They were interesting, I guess, to watch. They would get all costumed up. NG: They hung on to their heritage that way? JC: They hung on to their heritage, but you got to remember that a lot of these people had never even seen Japan. They were second and third generation Americans and many of them were citizens. It was kind of sad because they were asking, “Why are we jailed even though we're a citizen?” The men wanted to join the service. So they finally created the 442nd unit. It was the most decorated unit in the whole war and it was entirely Japanese men that served in the european front. 8 NG: It was their way of showing their patriotism? JC: Their patriotism. NG: For America. That is amazing that they would do that because they are in the camps and yet they are going to say, “Okay we're going to show you wrong.” JC: I think they were in shock when they got there. What happened to us? They learned to adapt and create a great community. As I read some of these other histories and things, in high school, in junior high, they had their own games. They had their friendships. NG: That's amazing. JC: It's amazing to me. NG: They could have gone so many directions but no, they made the best out of the situation, some of them even served our country. JC: It was easier on the younger people then on the elderly. The older people had been busy with their businesses and with their farms and now they had nothing. They did have farms at Topaz for the people to work.They were allowed to go into Delta and the communities to do work on the surrounding farms. At times they were even brought here at the Wasatch front. There was a dearth of men. Men were all at war and they needed people to run the farm and pick the produce. While the camp was being constructed some of the Japanese men came out early and helped build the camp. They were paid but it was $8 to $16 a month. While the civil servant, the supervisor and the contractors and their men were getting paid well, really well. Farms in the communities around couldn't keep people on the farm because they could make more working at the camp. 9 The Japanese would go in to Delta to shop sometime, one or two from each group would go in and shop for rest. They were not really accepted in Delta, because… NG: They were Japanese. JC: They were Japanese and we were at war with Japan and their husbands and sons were fighting the Japanese. We’re fighting Japan. Let's put it that way. NG: There is a difference. JC: There is a difference. NG: I can see why the whole group wouldn't go, but one or two. So once they got established, it sounds like they got a little more freedom. They weren't kept within the barbed wire? JC: Well, they were and they weren't. They had to get passes to leave the camp. If they had contacts or means of work further inland or in the Midwest, Chicago, Detroit, or back east, there was a program set up for their relocation. I was going through some of Dad's papers, there were letters and letters written to him, from those that had worked with him, in the offices -- there were jobs in the camps from cooking to cleaning to office work if they had some training. They would write back and tell him what they were doing. He kept these letters and carbon copies of his letters to them in which he would mention what they were doing. He would offer to send them references if they needed it to obtain better jobs. Lots of them got jobs and were going to school. NG: It sounds like they were just trying to keep them off the west coast because that was closer to Japan. 10 JC: Yes, because they didn't bring them in from the east coast at all. It was just the west coast. NG: Do you know how many camps there were over all? How many different camps? JC: There were ten. One at Heart Mountain, and there was a couple in California and Arizona. There was even one Arkansas. NG: Oh, wow. JC: One up in Montana and Wyoming. NG: There was quite a few then. JC: So there were quite a few camps. They had an active Boy Scout group going. Dad was actually Boy Scout Commissioner, I didn't realize that. They would have their scout ceremonies and all of that. It made, you know, good references for jobs once they left the camp. They had those Eagle Scout awards. Things were done to try and bring them up, as much as they could, for the situation. NG: It was like life is normal but here, in the middle of nowhere. JC: As normal as we can make in it the middle of nothing. There was one man that was killed there at the camp. When I was reading Mrs. Bell's memories, he was actually walking dogs. He got too close to the barbed wire and the guard warned him to move away. Then he warned him again. The wind was blowing and he was hard of hearing and he didn't hear and he was shot. That didn't go over well. I know in some of the other camps there was some rebellion. Basically at Topaz there weren’t any rebellions. When, well growing up I knew just from the correspondence we get from Christmas and other times, from those who were in the administration, they really loved and cared what happened to these people. 11 In about 1968, they had a big reunion at the Hotel Utah. It was a two day event. Afterwards a lot of them went up to Mom's and Dad's house there in South Ogden and had another meeting. They were trying to answer the question, “How do we keep this sort of thing ever happening again?” NG: Was the reunion of the Japanese or the people that worked there or both? JC: It was mainly the administration, but as many of the Japanese that they could find was invited. At the end of this meeting that night one of these little Japanese men stood up. He said, “This is the first time I ever knew anyone ever cared what happened to us.” NG: So it sounds like Topaz was different? JC: I don't know if was different but it. NG: They cared. JC: They cared. I would hope that the other administrates cared but I wasn't there. What I knew from growing up, is of the great love that my parents and these people had and the concern that they had for them. NG: You mention the wind. It was probably dusty. JC: Oh, it was dusty. In fact, mother and Gladys, both in their little memories said the wind would blow for three days from one direction. The next day it would start blowing from the other direction. You clean it up, but you didn't need to because it would just blow from the other. You just rearranged it. Even in Helen Harano Christ’s story, she talked about the sand hitting your face. They would wear scarfs over their faces while going to school or going to church. While those in the regular barracks they never did get their kitchens. They just had rooms. 12 Some of them would get Japanese cooking stoves so they could do some cooking inside. They still had to haul water. They ate in a common area basically. So food was like a cafeteria. If you’re fussy about what you eat, good luck. NG: You wouldn't make it. JC: In Topaz we learned to eat rice. Mother was raised on a farm it was meat and potatoes. After Topaz, I remember rice more than potatoes. NG: You got a taste for it? JC: Yes, we got a taste for it. Dad learned to make sukiyaki. They didn't eat a lot of meat. Dad would make sukiyaki and they would sprout the mung beans in those wooden cheese boxes. Mother would do all the work and the prep work of cutting the meat and vegetable. Dad got credit for making sukiyaki. NG: Five minutes of cooking and he got all the credit. JC: Yes, she did all the work and he got the credit. Topaz was a good experience that never should have happened. NG: True. JC: Anything else? NG: I was just going to ask you anything else you can think of? JC: I know that there have been books written about Topaz and there is a lot of information online. There been a lot of art displays. Springville they had a Topaz exhibit year ago. There was also one at the University of Utah and Utah State. They are trying to build a Topaz Museum at Delta. The Pioneer Museum in Delta does have artifacts and behind it they have one of the barracks with displays in it. The Smithsonian, a year ago, had one of the art works. I was able to go and see 13 it and I was blown away with how intricate some of those carving were. They had these huge wooden cases just carved to the ump degree that held their religious scriptures or whatever they used for their ceremonies. They made their own furniture out there, out of whatever they could find. NG: Very resourceful. JC: When I was going through Dad's things there were some of these brochures that was on what looks like that old scrapbook paper. One of the pamphlets was facts about Topaz. It was a ‘come work at Topaz and this is what you can expect,’ where it is and just kind of the statics. Then the other was for the Japanese people telling the schedules of the meals, and the schedules of this and the bus passes and how to get here and where to find this and the do’s and the don’t’s. Those are things I turned into the Y the other day so I didn't keep them, but I have copies of some of them. Jackie donated her father’s letters and other memorabilia to the BYU archives. NG: Well thank you very much, we appreciate this. JC: I hope that somebody can get something out of this. 14