Oral History Program Carol Jean Scott Interviewed by Don Cavalli 12 August 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Carol Jean Scott Interviewed by Don Cavalli 12 August 1971 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Scott, Carol Jean, an oral history by Don Cavalli, 12 August 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Carol Jean Scott. The interview was conducted on August 12, 1971, by Don Cavalli in the Weber County Jail. Ms. Scott discusses her knowledge and opinions of the criminal justice system in Weber County, as well as her personal experiences with criminal activities and the law. DC: Carol Jean, in order to get a foundation for the questions I’m going to ask you, would you mind telling me a little about your childhood— where you were born, how many brothers and sisters you have? CS: I was born in Ogden and I was adopted. DC: How old were you when you were adopted? CS: Three. DC: What happened to your parents? CS: Drowned. (Living still— one in Denver, other in California). DC: Do you have any brothers and sister you remember? CS: No, but I met them late last year. DC: How many do you have? CS: I’ve got 10 or 11. I’m the oldest. DC: You attended schools in this area? CS: Yes, grade school in Pingree, and junior high and high school at the State Industrial School. 1 DC: Can you tell me about your first encounter with the system? When you were first arrested, etc.? CS: I was charged with interfering with the law. DC: Were you sentenced to the State Industrial School for that offense? CS: Yeah. DC: You went to the Juvenile Detention Home? CS: No, this was when I was eighteen. DC: How old were you when you were sentenced to the State Industrial School? CS: Thirteen. DC: Were you ever detained in a Juvenile Detention Home? CS: Yes. DC: How old were you then? CS: Only 11. DC: What was the reason? CS: That was when they took me away from my adoption parents. DC: How long did you stay in the Detention Home? CS: About one day is all. DC: I know that it has been quite a while, but can you remember what you thought of detention at that time? CS: I didn’t like it. 2 DC: Did they provide you with any reading material, television, etc.? CS: No, they had some games there. DC: What happened after you were detained in detention? Do you recall? CS: They placed me in foster home for a while. DC: How long did you stay with your grandmother? CS: Up until I was thirteen. DC: Did you ever go back into detention? CS: Yes. DC: How many times did you actually go back into detention? CS: Twice. DC: Then you were sent to the State Industrial School. What was the reason for your commitment at SIS? CS: Sluffing school. DC: So you were then considered incorrigible. How long did you spend out at the State Industrial School? CS: Until I was sixteen. DC: So you spent three years there? Tell me about the State Industrial School. I’ve never spent any time there so I need to be better informed. CS: I guess it was all right. If you don’t have any money, you can work. I worked for the laundry. 3 DC: What about school? What grade were you in before you went into the State Industrial School? CS: The eighth. DC: When you came out, had you progressed in the grades? CS: I think a little. The reason I got out was because I ran away from there. I got pregnant. They told me if I was good, they would let me keep my baby. DC: Did you keep your baby then? CS: Yes. DC: So you’ve got a baby at home now? Who’s taking care of it for you? CS: The grandmother. DC: Is this your mother, or is this the same grandmother that took care of you? CS: No, this is the father’s mother. DC: Is that the only child that you have, then? CS: I have two of them— boy and a girl. DC: Now you were at the State Industrial School approximately six or seven years ago. I guess back in those days, they didn’t have a drug problem, did they? CS: Well, kind of. DC: Was there a drug problem back then? CS: It wasn’t very serious. One of the girls that was down in the nurse’s office was stealing pills and bringing them back to us. 4 DC: Was marijuana available at that time? CS: No, not very often. DC: It was really just the pills that she was able to get out of the nurse’s office then. Was there any other experiences that you had at the State Industrial School that you would like to tell me about? CS: No, not really. DC: Did you have a good attitude towards the administration? Did they provide you with the types of help that you thought you needed? CS: Yeah. DC: Was there anything that you didn’t like about it? CS: I just don’t like the way it appeared. DC: Just the fact of being locked up, and not being able to do what you want to do. Can you think of any kind of service you think they should have provided to you while you were there that they didn’t? CS: No. DC: Were socials quite open? Did you have a good opportunity to mingle with the opposite sex? Did you get to know guys while you were there? CS: Yes. DC: Now you were sixteen years old, then you were released from the State Industrial School because you were pregnant. What happened from there? 5 CS: I had my baby while I was there. They took me to the Welfare Office and placed me on welfare and told me when I found a place to live they would pay for it. DC: Did you start working then? CS: No, I didn’t. DC: So what you did was maintain yourself and your baby while you were on welfare? How long did that last? CS: You mean, how long I spent on welfare? DC: Yes. How long before you became employed? CS: I didn’t become employed until I lived in New York. That was when I was nineteen. DC: What kind of job did you have in New York? CS: I worked in a laundry, and that lasted about a week. DC: Then what happened? CS: I got a job here and that last about two weeks— I didn’t like the job. DC: What happened after that? CS: After I quit, I was going to New York to go find my mother— I wanted to meet her. I got stranded down there. During this time, I was supposed to be going to court and I didn’t make it to court. I got scared and I figured I was going to the pen or the chair, so I didn’t come back. DC: Tell me about the drug scene. We hear a lot about it and a lot of people tell us that it is a serious problem here in this area. I think that the only people that really know are the ones that are involved in it. What is it all about and how serious is it? 6 CS: I think it is really serious. I started messing around with it when I was about eighteen. It is always available. Hard ones are like heroin. I didn’t get caught on it until last year. DC: What type of drugs did you use before you got caught on heroin? CS: Weed. I smoked weed all the time. DC: It’s readily available then, and anyone who wants it can get it? CS: Right. DC: Do you think that a lot of those who become addicted, turn into pushers our of pure necessity? Either that or prostitution, I would assume. CS: Yeah. DC: Then you got hooked on heroin. How long have you been addicted to heroin? CS: About a year now. DC: When you came to the county jail, I would assume that you were still addicted to heroin. Did you go through withdrawal while you were in the county jail? CS: They took me to the hospital. DC: How long did you stay in the hospital? CS: I went that night and they gave me a couple of shots and methadone pills. DC: Are you on methadone right now? CS: No, I’m not. DC: Do you feel that you are still addicted to heroin? CS: Yes, in a way— not real bad though. 7 DC: Interesting enough, we have methadone blockade project that we are working on, through the Weber County Health Center. Essentially what this would do is provide services to the heroin addict. If you were addicted to heroin and you’re out in the streets, you come into the Weber County Health Center, and they would set up a treatment for you with the use of methadone. From what we have seen, you go on methadone and it takes away the desire for heroin. Do you think that would be good? CS: I think it would solve a lot of problems— crime. DC: Do you think that people commit crimes in order to get money to buy narcotics and drugs? CS: That’s my problem. DC: You think that this is prevalent. What percentage of heroin addicts do we have in this community? CS: Here in Ogden, I know about 25 or 30. DC: How do those people get their money? CS: Same way I did. DC: They go into prostitution, right? CS: Well, only some of them do. The ones that don’t want to steal. DC: Are most addicts females or males? CS: I would say that most of them are females. DC: What can be done to help? Say you are going to set down and solve this problem— the drug problem. What kind of recommendations would you make? 8 CS: This methadone program. I mean, they know about it, and they know that it can’t give them any trouble. They’ll come. I think that that is a good program. DC: What else can be done? CS: I don’t know if you can even make them quit. On methadone, you can get high on that. DC: But you don’t have to steal for methadone. How much does heroin sell for? CS: Ten dollars per ounce. With methadone, we would have to pay $10 for it. DC: Under this service, the methadone will be provided free of charge. So you get a free prescription. So the same way you would if you were on welfare. You get a prescription in order to obtain the pill. You do exactly the same thing. You would probably bring in a urine sample so that they could tell if you were on the right dosage of methadone. They don’t want to give you too much and yet they don’t want to give you too little. If you get too little, you’re going to be out in the streets trying to get heroin. Do you think that that would help solve some of the problems? CS: Yeah. DC: When was the first time that you actually started taking drugs? How old were you then? CS: Seventeen. DC: Could something have been done then to prevent you from taking them? Or was it inevitable? CS: I don’t know. I was down— really down. Probably if I could have talked to somebody that was or had already been through the business to tell me how bad it was— there might have been a chance. 9 DC: Do you regret it? CS: Oh, yeah. DC: Is this the first time that you have been in the Weber County Jail? CS: No. DC: How many times have you been here? CS: Three times— interfering with an officer, probation violation… This is about my fourth time. DC: Would you say that all of these offenses are related to the drug problem? Were you on drugs when you committed these offenses? CS: No, when I was interfering with an officer, I was just trying to help my girlfriend. Assault with a deadly weapon— it was either do that or get it myself. I wasn’t doing it because I needed money. DC: You’ve been here about four times at Weber County Jail. What is your opinion of it? CS: It’s ridiculous, I think. I mean, if you’re sick or something, they’ll send you to the doctor— they’ll give you some kind of pill. But the food, the living conditions aren’t too cool. DC: What is your daily routine? CS: Well, up until there was a television back there, you would get up and clean your room, get dressed, play cards, wash yourself, wait for them to bring the food… DC: Is there anything else that you can do? What other types of services would you like to see made available, Carol? 10 CS: They ought to have a place you can go to get out of those cells. DC: An exercise yard? CS: Yeah, that would be good. I think that they ought to let you come outside once in a while. I think they should wash the blankets. There’s a sink back there, and you have to wash your trays and wash your clothes in it, your hair, everything in the same sink. DC: You said an exercise yard. We are going to construct a new Metropolitan Hall of Justice in Weber County. What we want to know is what kind of facilities would you like to see constructed? CS: They were having a group therapy, but they don’t have it anymore. DC: They discontinued that because of lack of facilities primarily. Okay, what else? CS: There’s a lot of girls back there and nobody brings them money and they smoke. If there was some type of job that they could do. They don’t have to raise that much money. DC: Just enough for smokes? CS: Yeah. DC: How do you get smokes? CS: Well, I get money every now and then, but I don’t like to ask people to bring me money. DC: Out to the state prison, I understand that you can work and they do provide you with spending money to buy cigarettes or candy, you think that is a good idea? That it should be incorporated into this jail? What else can we do to improve the jail? What about reading material? CS: They have some books. 11 DC: Are they up-to-date, are they the types of books that you like to read? CS: They have a lot of books there but they’re not my type of book. DC: What would you think of an arts and crafts room so that you can sew, do some of your own cooking, etc. CS: That would be nice. DC: Anything else you can think of? CS: No, they could clean out the jail. DC: It’s real hard because if you make it too elaborate and too nice, then people will want to come here and that is already a problem with alcoholics. Another thing that I am real interested in is that there are a lot of prostitutes in Ogden. You probably have some friends that are prostitutes— most of us do. Tell me a little about their way of life— what’s it all about, why do they do it, etc.? CS: The ones that I have seen is where the man catches them and he gives them all this stuff that they haven’t got. DC: Is this a pimp? The pimp is the man that organizes the prostitutes. He takes care of them and they work for him. Is that right? CS: Yes. After they have been there for a while, he tells them to get out there and if they don’t get out, they are naked. If they don’t want to do it, then he says, “You have to pay me this stuff back by a certain time.” DC: Is it a profitable business? CS: No, but then I know some girls making $100 a day. 12 DC: How much do they usually charge for the whole course, for an hour? Is there a certain set price that they charge? CS: Some will go for anything. Some will go for $20 a trick. DC: They get involved because they owe money to the pimp or what? For drugs? CS: Clothes, if you have kids, they take care of your kids. DC: What happens if they don’t? You say they jump on you. What do you mean they jump on you? CS: They get quietly beat up and they’ll get this until they are doing it. They’ll just try to pick up anybody. They just need to know a little about you. DC: How many prostitutes do you think we have in the Ogden area? CS: About nine or ten that I know of. Then there is some that don’t get out in the streets but they still do it. DC: In other words, they have clientele build up so that the clientele just call the number and comes up to their apartment. Do they enjoy this kind of life? Or is it a matter that they are forced into it? CS: Most of them that I have asked don’t like it. Some will say well, look at all the money I’m making on it. DC: Do you think that all of them are on drugs? CS: Oh, yeah. DC: That’s probably the primary reason why they are prostitutes? CS: Yeah. 13 DC: What else can you tell me about the life of a prostitute? What kind of experiences do they have? CS: They have some experience in life. They can pick up a trick and hurry and get a job in… and taking off somewhere with that. DC: What’s a trick? CS: Trick? The man that’s looking for a woman for sale. DC: So they do get beat up and there is an element of danger in it. What other kinds of experiences do they have? CS: That’s about it. If they don’t make enough money, they’re going to get it. DC: From the pimp? How many hours a day do they work? CS: Some stay out there all day, change clothes and go right on out there again. DC: I guess you’ve never sat down and figured out how much they make an hour, have you? CS: Sometimes they get hold of somebody that is really dumb and leaves his pants somewhere like on a chair— anytime that they can get into their pockets and take some money, they do. DC: Is there anything else that we haven’t covered? I’m sure that you have some interesting experiences in your life that were either good or bad. Can you think of any that you can tell me about? CS: Can’t think of anything that would be interesting. DC: I think that anything that you say will be interesting. I’m really intrigued by what you’ve said. It’s important that I understand these things because I can get a lot of information 14 from the administrators and assistants— people who are straight, but they don’t have the answers. You’ve been to the detention home, through the juvenile courts, the State Industrial School, the county jail; you know prostitutes, you’ve been through the dope scene. You’ve been through it. You know what effect that the system has upon you or what it hasn’t had upon you and what it could or should have done for you, you’re the only one that has the key to our problems— you really do, Carol. CS: It was something that I didn’t want to do, but I did it anyway and I think I’m going to the pen. DC: Now you’ve never been to the State Prison. If you do get sent there, do you think that it will help you? CS: It’s not going to help me. Probably when I go out there I’m going to learn more than I already know. DC: In other words, you will become more professional in criminology than you presently are? CS: I’ve talked to two women back there in the Weber County Jail and they’ve gone to the pen, and they said they know a hell of a lot more than they did when they went out to the State Prison. DC: All it is, is a school for the criminal then? You’ve had quite a few encoutners with the police. Tell me what you think about the police officer. CS: Some of them are pretty nice. Then you get some and they’re not worth nothing because, like my sister-in-law, she came up here and she was high and she was mouthing off and he called her a nigger so she pit in his face and she was handcuffed 15 and he hit her in the stomach. Of course, he said he didn’t, but he did. Then again, you find some that are pretty nice. DC: Would you say that it is about fifty-fifty? CS: No, you don’t find as many that are ignorant but they do have them. DC: Have you ever been harassed personally? Have you ever been struck or anything like that? CS: Yeah. DC: Do you want to tell me about it? CS: When my girlfriend was fighting with the police, while I ran over there. What I was going to do was try and pull her away. When I got over there, he had her all hooked up like this and she was dangling with her face down. I ran over there and he let her go. So we ran and we ran out of gas. It was here that had did it but he wanted me anyway and he tried. He said that it wasn’t her and he pointed at me but he knew it was her, I think. We got into a fight and I had a weapon on me and I tried to run and I knew he was hunting for me and I turned myself in. I talked to my lawyer, Hutchison, he always made me feel good. DC: Has he done you a good job? CS: Yeah, if it wasn’t for him, I think I would blow it up here. He comes up and he talks to me and he goes over my problems. DC: He is very much interested in the minorities and of course, he was married to a black. He relates to them very well and he thinks very highly of them— I do too. Some of my best friends are black. That’s just my orientation— not everyone is that way as you well 16 know. Do you think that this harassment is because you are black? Or do the poor whites get the same kind of treatment? CS: They get the same kind of treatment, I don’t know. DC: It just matters if you are straight, on the right side of the fence. Have you ever had any other bad experiences? With peace officers? CS: Yeah, my man first went to the pen and I got this Spanish girl living with me. I had a boyfriend and he was always in jail and he would break out to the house or he steal his food. Well this one policeman, I forget his name now. Well, him and this other one were coming out to the house. He’d come out anytime he got ready, kick in the back door and would go through the house and go through the loft. I didn’t know anything about a search warrant then and take out stuff that didn’t belong there— but I guess that is their job. DC: What kinds of things did they take? CS: He had stolen a lot of candy and stuff for the kids, milk, radios and televisions. He didn’t have any business bringing them but at that time, I didn’t know anything about him. DC: How old were you then? CS: Seventeen. DC: What about the judicial system? I’m referring to the judge, and the jury. What do you think of that system? Is it fair? Can we change it? CS: I don’t really know. I guess that they have to do something because there are so many crimes. I think that they should look at each case differently instead of locking them away for life. They should try to help them, because if they lock them up, anyway the 17 ones that I know, they come out and they do the same things. They should try to help them instead of trying to put them away. DC: So you don’t think that our jail or our prisons are really rehabilitating the offender, then? CS: No. DC: Do you think that maybe when you come before the judge that what they ought to attempt to do is to provide you with the kind of help that you really need— maybe work with somebody from vocational rehabilitation or employment security or something of that nature? CS: Trying to improve it, I think they should. DC: You don’t think that this help is available out to the prison then? CS: I don’t really know. The trouble is the way that the women talk, I don’t know, I know a man who came out and he had some pretty far out ideas and they were about the same only bigger and better. DC: What charge is he on out there? CS: Parole violation. DC: Do you think that his way of life has had any effect upon you? Often times we hear people say that we follow the footsteps of our parents. Do you think that you would fall into this category? CS: I’ve seen him doing things and sometimes I would go with him, but like I say, it was either that or I would hit the streets. DC: What do you have against hitting the streets? 18 CS: I’m not married you know, and I’ve got two kids and I just can’t seem like laying up with anybody— I’ve got to feel something for them. DC: What about the prosecution? You’re going to have a chance to see them in action again I guess. When is your trial coming up? CS: My lawyer says I’ll probably be getting into court in September. DC: In the meantime, you’ll sit here in the Weber County Jail. Have they set bail? CS: No. DC: What do you think of the prosecution? Of course you have seen them in action before. Do they do an adequate job, are they fair? CS: Some of them are. It depends on the case, I guess. In other cases they ain’t too fair. They get you up there and they try to tear you down. Like me, I’m not too bright and they throw questions at you that you really don’t understand and they get you shook up— that’s what they want to do anyway. DC: How could it be improved? CS: I don’t know cause that is their job. DC: Do you think that the defense does an adequate job? Has Hutchison done a good job for you? CS: He is doing what he can. Like when it was an assault with a deadly weapon I figured since I had been to the State School plus I had been up here in the jail for interfering with an officer, I thought I was going to the pen then. I asked him and he said that I stood a pretty good chance of going, well I was ready to quit then. He came up to me 19 and said if you will plead guilty, I promise you probation— that was the only way out. What I should have done was try to fight it because Hutchison said I could have beat it because I just didn’t go up and stab the guy— I’m not that crazy. I had to get him off me. DC: He was after you then? He was going to jump you? CS: Yeah, he was going to jump me. He did jump me. DC: What did he do, beat you up? CS: Oh, yeah. DC: What was the reason that he did that? CS: We were out to this club. I think that one of the black boys said something to a white girl and she didn’t like it. They were fighting against the white girls. There was this boy that I was going with and this white girl goes over and starts really tearing him up so I pulled the white girl off him. All the other black boys left. It was just me and my old man and some girls that came in another car. We ran and jumped in the car. They were coming at this car and the girl that was driving panicked and grabbed the keys and jumped out of the car. The two girls in the front they ran. We were left packed up in the back. The two came to the car and they had chains so we got out. All of us got it but one girl and she’s real light— I guess they thought that she was Spanish. The one that I had pulled off my old man, he called me a black bitch or something. So I turned around and he hit me. He was really tearing me up. So I reached around and got my knife. I ran and I left my knife there. There was more than two white boys. DC: With your fingerprints? CS: Yeah, plus I came up here. 20 DC: You turned yourself in? CS: Yeah. DC: What did they sentence you to that time? CS: Two years probation. DC: You were under Adult Probation Parole for what— two years? Now tell me about that service. CS: Well, like me, I hardly ever talked to them. I’d come in and sign my paper and if I didn’t get caught, I’d leave cause they never had anything to talk about. Either that or “What are you doing?” “How are you feeling?” DC: Did he ever come to your home? CS: No, he only came to bring me back to jail. DC: Was that on a probation violation? CS: Yeah. DC: Did they do anything else for you? CS: I don’t feel like they did. Maybe it was me but I don’t think they did. No more than what I could have done myself. DC: They didn’t have any group therapy sessions, didn’t introduce you to vocational rehabilitation or take you to any social workers? CS: No. DC: What year was this that you were on probation? 21 CS: Sixty-eight or sixty-nine. DC: That is when you started on probation? So you were on it until just recently then. Are you here on a probation violation too? CS: Yes. DC: Let’s go back to your younger days when you got involved with the juvenile courts. What did you think of the juvenile court back in those days? CS: When I first went to them, they took me away from those people that adopted me. I thought they were pretty cruel then. Oh the people that adopted me, I hated them. DC: Did they treat you fair? CS: I guess that they didn’t have any other alternative. DC: What about your foster parents? Do you think that the reason that that didn’t work out was because they weren’t concerned about your welfare? They were more concerned about getting their money? CS: Yeah, they went for that too. I didn’t like them at all. They were always throwing it up to my face. I’d do something wrong and they would tell me, “Well, you don’t appreciate this. You’re mother ran off and left you and we were kind enough to take you in.” They were always jumping on me. I didn’t like it at all. DC: Do you think that they were more concerned about the money than they were about your welfare? CS: I don’t know. I know that they really appreciated getting it. DC: How many other children did they have? 22 CS: When I was there, they had three. DC: Were they all foster children? CS: Yes. DC: They didn’t have any children of their own? CS: The old man did, but they were grown. DC: They were an older couple then? CS: Yes. She was always jumping on me. That was another reason why I didn’t like her. That is why they took me away from her. DC: We hear a lot about 25th Street as you well know, it is quite the place. What type of life is led on 25th Street? Do you know much about it? What kind of people are down there? CS: All kinds. There was this one place that we could go off in. It was the only place that we could go. That’s closed down now. You could go in there and dance. That’s besides going into the regular beer joints. DC: Are drugs readily available on 25th? Is that a good place to go get them? CS: You can go down there, but for somebody that isn’t really know, that is not a good place to go. DC: Is homosexuality a problem? CS: I don’t think it is a real problem. I know some. I guess it’s a problem but I don’t see anybody messing with somebody else unless they want to be messed with. Other than that, they just seem like anybody else. DC: In other words, they stick with their own kind. Is this true for both females and males? 23 CS: I don’t know any women. DC: It’s just the problem with the men, then? CS: I’ve heard of some women here but I don’t know if I believe it or not. DC: Can you think of anything else that we haven’t covered that might be of interest to me? What about 25th Street? Is that a good environment? Do you like to go down 25th Street or do you think that we ought to do away with it? CS: I don’t think that we should do away with it because there are people who like going down there. DC: What about the new dudes who come into town that don’t know 25th Street, and they have to go there? Are these the ones that are mauled usually? Beat up? CS: I’ve seen some come down there and they act bad and sharp so they know their town but they’re usually going to get it anyway whether they’re on 25th or not. DC: Is there any other kinds of vices that you have seen? You’ve been around for twentytwo years and I’m sure that you’ve seen a lot of things happen. What about those that supposedly play it straight? Are there any crooked-straight people that you know of? CS: Oh yeah, I know a lot of them. DC: Tell me about the kinds of things they do, the kinds of things they get involved in. CS: They really can be doing the same things that we can be doing. But, they find one of us to do it for them and they just sit back and collect. 24 DC: What you’re saying then is that they are the ones that have the money with which they buy pushers. Are these people the ones that have lots of money? Are they in government positions? What kind of people are they? CS: I know a lot of them and they have pretty good jobs and are making lots of money. They’ll come down or they’ll send somebody down and they will say, “We want you to do this or we want you to do that.” DC: What kinds of things do they get involved with besides drugs? CS: A lot of them like rings. DC: You mean stolen goods? CS: Yeah. DC: What else? Drugs and stolen property… What about prostitution? We talked about pimps. Are pimps actually part of the element down there or are they high classed people? CS: They’re high-classed, kind of. They’ve got a lot of money. DC: You’ve probably talked to your friends about it but the middle-class and higher-class people, do they get involved with prostitution? CS: Yeah. DC: Are they big clientele? CS: Yeah. DC: How high? 25 CS: They pay pretty good money. If they want to just sit there and look at you, if they are supposed to be the big shots, they’ll pay you $300 or $350. DC: What’s the most that you have heard of a prostitute being paid? For one night? CS: The most has been about $500. She had to do something for that. DC: What would she have to do for that kind of money? CS: Everything that you can think of. DC: What type of person would pay that kind of money? CS: The higher-class people. Supposedly, higher-class people. DC: How much would it cost if I wanted to have somebody jumped on (have somebody beat up), really bad? How much would it cost? CS: If you pay for the contract, it runs pretty heavy. I’ve heard of people getting paid at least $1000 to tear somebody up— not kill them. This happens a lot in Salt Lake. DC: Here in Ogden, it is kind of infrequent? CS: Yeah. DC: Carol, you are a very interesting person, you’ve had a lot of experiences as you well know. Not all of them are good, I’m sure in your eyes but to me it is very interesting and the reason it is, is because I hope if something you have said might help somebody else. I really believe that it is the ex-offender or the ex-dope addict that are going to help young kids that are coming up. If I hadn’t been addicted to heroin, how could I go to a kid and tell him that that’s just not the way to go? — I can’t. It takes someone like yourself to do that. If by chance you go to the State Penitentiary, I hope you won’t, but if 26 you do, they’ve got a program there where you can speak to groups on the outside. If you are at all interested in that, I think it will be a fantastic opportunity for you and also for the young people. Let’s pretend now that you are with some young people, what would you tell them? CS: It might be really cool at first but after you get in it… DC: How did you get caught up with heroin? Was it your choice? CS: At first. Then, every time that I didn’t like the way I felt, I would go take it. DC: How much would it cost you approximately a week? CS: A week, I don’t know. If I was luck about $50 or $60. If I wanted to get high about $150 a day. DC: You’d have to do almost anything to get that kind of money because even a wealthy person can’t afford that. CS: You have to work for it. DC: Sometimes you got bad dope, right? How would this happen? CS: They would mix it with milk and sugar. DC: Could you end up having a bad trip if they cut it down? CS: You get sick. DC: What kind of sickness? Nausea? CS: Yeah, stomach cramps. Stuff that leaves a bad scar on your arms or wherever you hit the stuff. 27 DC: You mean where they inject the needle? CS: No, it’s stuff that has got too much of it in you of the wrong stuff in it. DC: Have you ever seen anyone have a trip? I mean, a real bad trip while they were on drugs? CS: Yeah. DC: Can you describe it? CS: I’ve seen girls that have grabbed their hair and rolled on the floor and stuff— that was acid. DC: So you use primarily smack opiates? What’s it like going through withdrawal? CS: I couldn’t stand it. DC: What kinds of things do you feel when you go through it? CS: Like you don’t have any dope and you wake up and you go through hot and cold flashes. You can be freezing one minute and the next minute burning up. You’re burning up and you still have cold chills running up and down your stomach and tearing you up. DC: How long does this last? CS: Until you can get some dope. DC: So that oft times determines what you are going to do. That’s the point that you say I’ve got to do whatever necessary to get the money. CS: I’ve felt like killing somebody before. I wouldn’t do it. 28 DC: Even your best friends can become your victim. What other types of experiences have you had with the drug scene? CS: I’ve been really sick. I’d shoot up really bad and it wasn’t normal. It might have been some slow dope that hit you later on and a few minutes later, I’d shoot some more and then OD. DC: Do you know of very many people that have died from an overdose? CS: One in Salt Lake. DC: What about alcohol? Do you think that this is a problem? CS: Yeah. DC: Does it lead to crime? CS: I don’t know if it leads to crime or not. I guess you can do some pretty silly stuff. DC: Did you know, Carol, that fifty percent of all those housed here in the Weber County Jail are here on drunkenness or an alcohol related crime? Most of the trustees that you see walking around are here on that type of an offense. That’s the reason that I wanted to see if you thought it was a problem. The women that you are in with right now, what kind of offenses are they here on? CS: There’s one back there that has the same madness that I have. DC: She’s also addicted? CS: They’re giving her some kind of a pill back there now. Ones for checks and another one is for selling. DC: Selling narcotics? 29 CS: Yeah, and then we have a juvenile back there— some kind of breaking the law. DC: So she’s a federal prisoner then? CS: Yeah, she was also loaded when she came in. DC: She was on drugs. Do you think that probably everyone back there is probably an addict? Have you talked to the two that were ex-cons from prison about the drug scene out at the prison? CS: I know about the drug scene. DC: What do you hear about it? CS: My old man told me that it is pretty heavy. There is quite a bit of dope out there. DC: So he thinks it is pretty heavy but do you know how many are actually on drugs out there— what the percentage is? CS: I don’t know about the percentage but I know it is really hard for the women to buy it out there. DC: If you do get sent out there, are you going to try everything you can do to stay away from it? CS: I don’t want to ever get caught up in it again, but if I go— when I go, I’ve got to have something. DC: How long have you been addicted? Two years? CS: Yeah. DC: It’s a long time, isn’t it? Especially when you have to come up with $150 a day. It puts a lot of years on a person, doesn’t it? 30 CS: You grow old fast. DC: You don’t look old. You are very attractive, as you know. You are a very pleasant person. It’s just a hell of a thing for you to be in. Carol, is there anything that you can think of that we haven’t talked about, your life? CS: I’d like to forget about it. DC: We can’t live in the past, you have to live in the future. I know a lot of people that I have talked to has said, “Well, I’m going to go to prison and I’m going to be there two years. If I play it straight and I can play it straight when I get out, I’ll find me a good job and get away from the crowds that I was running with and go straight.” Some of them can and some can’t. CS: I think that if I could get away from here, I could probably make it. DC: Do you really and truly feel that you could? CS: Oh, yeah. DC: This is an unfair question and you don’t have to answer it but what do you think about religion? Has religion been a part of your life? CS: Oh, yeah. DC: Do you attend church regularly? CS: No. DC: You don’t. It’s just a matter of believing and having faith? CS: I believe in going to church but I see these people going to church all the time. I don’t think that you have to go to church to believe in it. 31 DC: It’s just a matter of inter-feeling. If you were making a guess, how high do you think the drug abuse situation is with the young kids? What percentage in the black community? CS: Practically everybody that I know. DC: How do the younger people get their money? CS: The same way that the older ones do. DC: By stealing? CS: Yeah. DC: What about the young girls? CS: If you were a pusher, you wouldn’t sell to the young girls because they run home and tell their parents. The boys are trying to be big men anyway. DC: You’ve said that there are about 25 or 30 heroin addicts that you are aware of. What about those that are addicted to other drugs, speed and so forth? Is there a lot of those? CS: Most of the time it is the white kids that use speed. DC: As far as clientele for prostitutes, is it usually the older men that come in or is it very often the very young teenage boys that get hung up with the prostitutes? CS: The young men. DC: What is the youngest that you have seen? CS: Fourteen. Now he’s a pimp. DC: How old is he now? CS: Fourteen. 32 DC: That is young to be a pimp, isn’t it? CS: Everybody talks about it. DC: How many girls does he have working for him? CS: About eight or nine. DC: Say I was a pimp and I wanted to buy a prostitute. How much would it cost me? CS: For one that doesn’t make too much money, maybe $100. DC: The only thing I have to do is keep them under hand. If they don’t come through for me I just beat them up. He must be pretty good— being fourteen years of age. How does he handle the girls? CS: I guess they just like him, I don’t know. DC: Does he dig up the clients for them a lot too? CS: No. That’s up to them. DC: What percent are black and what percent are white? CS: All the pimps that I know are black. DC: That’s a profitable business in Salt Lake, I guess. CS: From what I’ve heard, it has cut down. DC: Because of police action? CS: They’ll find another spot. 33 DC: Okay, well I really appreciate you taking time and I hope that things work out for you. I sincerely do. You are quite the gal. You don’t deserve what has happened to you. Of course it is all in the past like you said and it’s a matter of the future now. Describe a high: Being high on smash is like— first before you get a hit— you are all uptight and after you hit up you feel really super good. Nothing heavy is on your mind, you just sit there and have like dreams— and mine are good dreams— it really took me away from all the things I didn’t want to think about. Like I was in my own world— just a world of my own. 34