Oral History Program Anonymous Salt Lake City Police Officer “Dale” Interviewed by Gerald Durrans 19 March 1973 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Anonymous Salt Lake City Police Officer “Dale” Interviewed by Gerald Durrans 19 March 1973 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in Special Collections. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Anonymous Police Officer, Dale, an oral history by Gerald Durrans, 19 March 1973, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii PROSTITUTION IN SALT LAKE CITY DURING THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY BY GERALD A. DURRANS DR. RICHARD SADLER UTAH HISTORY 428 MARCH 19, 1973 1 UTAH HISTORY I. HISTORY OF INTERVIEWEE A. BORN B. RAISED C. DATE JOINED POLICE DEPT. D. SQUADS WORKED E. MAJOR EXPERIENCE II. PROSTITUTION A. LEGAL OR ILLEGAL IN S. L. C. B. LAW C. PRIMARY LAWS USED D. PENALTIES E. BOARD OF HEALTH CHECKS F. LOCATION OF CONCERN G. TYPES OF GIRLS (AGE, COLOR, BACKGROUND, ETC.) H. NAMES OF HOTELS OR HOUSES I. METHOD OF OPERATION 1. WINDOW TAPPERS 2 2. CALL GIRLS 3. STREET WALKERS 4. DRESS OF GIRLS 5. PRICE J. CRIME ASSOCIATED WITH PROSTITUTION 1. ROLL JOBS 2. NARCOTICS III. CONCLUSION A. PRESENT LAW B. TYPES OF PROSTITUTION a. STREET WALKERS b. CALL GIRLS c. MASSAGE PARLORS C. PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH PROSTITUTION D. ROLL JOBS E. NARCOTICS F. DISEASE IV. 1930 SALT LAKE CITY POLICE DEPT. FACT SHEET 3 FORWARD In an effort to fulfill the assignment for the Utah History Class of Dr. Sadler's at Weber State College, Winter Quarter 1973, at the suggestion of Dr. Sadler, the author focused his attention on the problem of prostitution in Salt Lake City during the early years of the 20th century. The author contacted several "older" members of the Salt Lake City Police Department in an effort to find a suitable "interviewee" for the project. Several names were given of retired officers who worked in the anti-vice areas during this time. Several attempts were made to contact some of these officers and it was learned that many had passed away, some were too ill, and others were contemplating surgery in local hospitals and therefore declined to grant an interview. In addition to the names of the retired officers mentioned, a prominent "Madame”, whom was still believed to be alive, was suggested. This woman was believed to be still operating the hotel where prostitution flourished during the 1920's and 1930's. A visit was made to the Bristol Hotel at 143 W. Broadway and this famous lady contacted. After identifying myself and my intended purpose, considerable verbal sparring took place. Finally this gracious lady, who I believe to be somewhere in her 70's, invited me in to discuss the project. The lady does not want to be identified and was very suspicious about this officer and the purpose of the project. She wanted to know of what value and purpose the subject of prostitution would have on history. All attempts on my part to justify the project had little, if any, effect. After a while, this charming woman relaxed somewhat and offered me some "Jew" wine. (Turned out to be Mogan David Blackberry Wine). We sat drinking the wine 4 and she started to talk somewhat about the olden days. (It should be noted that she was very cautious about what was said and that which was being of a very general nature). She admitted knowing some of the "gals", where they were from, etc. She named a few of the hotels where the girls worked and about how the police were always checking them out. The Blackstone Hotel was one of these. (This hotel is still standing and is now called the Raleigh Apts.). A Jewish woman by the name of Saddie operated this hotel then and still does now. Our talk was interrupted at this point and in parting she informed me that she would continue to talk to me "off the record", but she would not consent to having the conversation taped nor would she want the interview written into a history book later on. Again the search was instituted to find another interviewee and after considerable effort a retired Salt Lake City Police Officer was located who consented to an interview. (Again it should be noted that there was a great deal of reluctance to discuss past history in this particular area. The "Madame" informed me that she didn't want her posterity to learn of her past and the reluctance of the officer to discuss the "full" details are unknown). The interview follows: This is a recording taken in the home of a retired Salt Lake City police officer. This is a second interview with this officer. Again, at his request, he desires that his real name not be known and that he will speak in generalities, not specifics when it comes to naming persons or places. This recording is made at 2;30PM on Monday, March 19, 1973. For the purposes of the interview we will call our interviewee by the name of "Dale". This is a recording taken in the home of a retired Salt Lake City police officer. This is a second interview with this officer. Again, at his request, he desires that his real 5 name not be known and that he will speak in generalities, not specifics when it comes to naming persons or places. This recording is made at 2;30PM on Monday, March 19, 1973. For the purposes of the interview we will call our interviewee by the name of "Dale". 6 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with an anonymous Salt Lake City police officer going by the alias of “Dale”. The interview was conducted on March 19, 1973, by Gerald Durrans in the home of the interviewee. This interview discusses the subject of prostitution in Salt Lake City in the 20th Century. GD: Dale, with reference to your past history, can you tell us where you were born and raised? D: Born in Salt Lake City in 1900, and raised in Salt Lake City. GD: Now you are, or were a member of the Salt Lake City Police Department. What date did you join the department? D: 1926 until 1965. GD: In your experience with the Salt Lake City Police Department, which squads or divisions did you work? D: Oh, the major squads would be the vice, or morals squad, which pertains to the same, or the purity squad as it was sometimes known, and detective work. GD: Did you start right out on this purity squad? D: I was assigned immediately to the purity, or vice squad. GD: Was this something that they normally did with the younger new men because they might not be as well-known as some of the older men? 7 D: They checked your past record to see what you had been doing and in my case I had had considerable experience in and about Salt Lake City, and even knew where most houses of prostitution and bootlegging elements and so on existed. GD: As I recall, in our first interview you indicated that you had worked for a grocery store or a meat company as a deliveryman and you got around the town and even got into some of these places delivering food, etc., is that the case? D: Yes, I delivered groceries to some of these houses in 1914 and 1915 at 15 years of age. There were tap joints at that time - they were mostly upstairs. GD: Can you explain what a tap joint is? D: A tap joint is as a rule on the street where passersby are rapped in, or tapped in you might say from the window, and beckoned to come in. GD: Now you are speaking of girls rapping on the window? D: Yes, the blinds parting and rapping on the windows and beckoning their prospective customers to come in. GD: Now these were prostitutes? D: They were prostitutes. GD: Was prostitution legal in Salt Lake City at that time? D: Never during my term on the police department was it ever legalized. GD: Now what laws did you use in combatting prostitution during your time? D: We used mainly the vagrancy law. 8 GD: Can you tell us basically what that law said at that time? D: The vagrancy law was— I can read it to you. It's Section 7, Revised Ordinances of Salt Lake City, 1920 is the Vagrancy Law, and Vagrancy Defined in Section 16-18 and it covers prostitution and many other phases of crime. In other words, any person who lives in or about houses of ill fame, or every common prostitute and every woman who from doorways on the street, or any other place, solicits men for immoral purposes, or every common drunkard or drug addict, gambler, etc., are charged with the vagrancy law. GD: When you arrested a girl, or when a girl was arrested by you, or other members of the department, what was the fine usually levied against her? D: The fine was minimal, $10.00. Sometimes up depending on how much trouble had been caused. GD: Or possibly how often the girl had been before the judge? D: Yes, how often the girl might have been arrested for prostitution, or soliciting. For streetwalkers the fine was more severe, because the police and the courts would not tolerate streetwalking at all. GD: What were the problems associated with prostitution, was disease a problem? D: It was one of the main objects of the enforcement was to curtail disease and apprehend those who had been diseased and corrected, even to the point of sentencing those people to jail and having them receive treatment from city doctors before they could be allowed to return to the streets and the public. 9 GD: If you had a report of a girl who might be diseased, could you pick her up and hold her for a Board of Health check? D: Yes, if she were a known prostitute, and we would also investigate reports on any girl in Salt Lake City who could have, or may have spread disease and if they were not being treated by a doctor, we could, if by their admittance, pick them up and take them before the court, explain the circumstances and the court would handle the case from there on, but the girl if she had not reported this and she was not being treated was in violation of the law. GD: What were the major areas where these houses of prostitution existed in Salt Lake City? Can you give us a geographic area? D: Well, approximately South Temple to 7th South and 2nd East to 5th West. GD: Were these houses in any certain geographic locations - were they of a higher class type of house in one area, rather than the other? In other words, did the girls cost more money in one part of town, as opposed to another part of town? D: I would say the costliest girls were call-girls. The hotel girls uptown might have charged more for their services, but the general price at the time, especially in the known houses of prostitution, was at a practically set figure, and up, where the girl in the hotel could make her own price and collect it if she were accepted for service. GD: With reference to the girls, were they all colors and sizes and ages, or can you expand on that somewhat and tell us something about the girls - the general age of most of them and where they might come from, and things of that nature, their color, etc. 10 D: The majority of girls in the hotels and the tap joints were light American girls and they would range from 18 on up. The colored girls and Latin girls usually operated the west end of town - West 1st South, West 2nd South and there were some tap joints and some cheap houses, cheap hotels, where they operated sometimes from rapping second story windows, and sometimes we would pick these people up for streetwalking and they were a lower class, and even the cheaper class of prostitutes. GD: You mean pricewise? D: The price, yes. There were one or two of the Negro ladies who were 50$ and up. GD: What were most of the white girls in the houses? D: Those in the tap joints were $2.00 and up, but the man also had to rent and pay for the room which was used and this was the procedure in each case. GD: Now you indicated in your first interview that some of these girls were from the smaller towns, and there were some who came in from out of state, and occasionally even sometimes a married woman who lived in Salt Lake City who was having difficulty with her finances might come down and sometimes get involved in this type of activity to try and alleviate her financial plight, is that the case? D: Yeah, that's very true. That's the way it was. GD: How did most of these girls operate? Can you tell us if they just tapped on the window to motion people who were walking by on the street to come in? D: They would part the blinds and tap and you could see their face on occasions, or their hand would be in the window and they would motion with their fingers to come on in. If 11 you hesitated they would part the blind further and let you see them, and they would keep after you to get you to come in. GD: Were they in any state of undress at this time? D: Just light clothing - like lingerie you might say. GD: Very suggestive type clothing? D: Well, they wouldn't expose themselves at the window that way, but they would when you entered. GD: Now, we've talked about the price already. During the summertime, when I imagine it was quite hot, I guess these girls would have the windows open and possibly call out to people who passed by, is that right? D: No, not in the tap joints. The windows could not be opened in the tap joints. There were very few cases where a girl would ever step to the door and call out. The landladies, or those in charge of most of the places wouldn't stand for that. The police wouldn't stand for it, and the girls in the lone places, that were alone, they wouldn't do that. Except down in the lower end of West 2nd South, and down in that section the colored ladies used to open the windows and call out. GD: Was there any crime associated with prostitution such as there is now, did you have many complaints, for an example, that once a man engaged a girl for a sexual purpose was he ever given knockout drops, or things of this nature and robbed? D: This didn't occur in the so-called tap joints, or the houses of prostitution that were under check by police, only on very rare occasions. That was another reason why we didn't allow or have much streetwalking, because where there were streetwalkers no one 12 knew who the girl was and many times the men were rolled and more than likely given knockout drops in the joints around, the soft drink parlors where they used to collect together and do their soliciting on occasions. GD: When you speak of soft drink parlors, were these actually soft drink parlors, or were they beer parlors as we know them now? D: They were what are known now as beer parlors, or lounges, and in those days during the prohibition years they were soft drink parlors where they served near beer, or many of the lounges or parlors had to have a grocery store license to keep the doors open, but there weren't very many groceries on the shelves, they were merely bootlegging joints. GD: Now with reference again back to the girls, were very many of the girls on narcotics that engaged in this type of activity? D: Very seldom we would catch them, or charge them with the use of narcotics, but it was very plain that many of them were addicts, and I have been told that that is one reason they were prostitutes because they couldn't afford their habit without prostitution. GD: Now getting back again to crime and things like that, in the raids that the police department conducted against these houses, can you tell us how they would go about it and what would happen? D: Well, regarding crime in these places, there were occasions when someone would report to the police that they had been rolled in these tap joints, or they had been given bad liquor, or what have you. The police answered every one of those calls and it was not necessary to be solicited into these places. It was simply a raid, and if the report 13 was authentic, the landladies, the girls, everyone that could be found were arrested and detained because of these reports that were given, and sometimes it was merely pranksters who didn't like the places and they made false reports on them, but nevertheless we raided them to the extent of breaking windows and breaking down doors to gain entrance and searching out the places where the girls who would run and hide. Sometimes we would bring them off the street where they had tried to get away and find them in dark places within the houses and we have found them in old style dressers with three or four drawers and the bottoms to the drawers were knocked out and it wasn't hard at all for a tall girl to get in there and the others closed the drawers and we have found the girls concealed that way. Also they had false doors (with all these doors built one room to the next) and if they timed it just right they could easily get through to the other side and no one found them. That was two methods they used to stay away from us, but as a rule it was a terrible hardship on the girls and it also worked a hardship on the officers who had to make the checkup. GD: Now, in pursuing your career, during the crash - the big stock market crash in 1929 and the great depression years of 1930 and 1931, I think you told me that you also worked the railroad yards and took people off the trains. Many, many people were traveling back and forth or wherever during this period of time and you would take them off the trains and take them to a welfare agency who would feed them and then try and send them on their way by some other means other than freight cars? D: Yes, during that time there were two men assigned to what we called the Hobo Detail. Thousands, literally thousands of men were traveling back and forth all over the country, and this being a railroad center we got more than our share of them. The railroads didn't 14 give them permission to ride, but they also didn't keep them off the freight trains. We would unload them when they arrived in Salt Lake. Sometimes we'd get a dozen, sometimes we'd get a hundred at a time and we'd march these men from the railroads if they were going south we'd march them down Redwood Road to the Roper Yards . . . GD: Dale, I had to interrupt you to turn the tape over. It stopped when we were discussing the railroad yards and all the hoboes that you were working on, and I think the last thing you mentioned was if they were going south you herded them south, can you go on from there? D: The chief object was to keep them out of the city limits. Business was worried about them and the people were worried about them, although the men who were traveling 99 out of a hundred of them were good American citizens, no criminal record, nothing against them except that they were unemployed and they had left their families to seek employment elsewhere and there was no employment. We would unload families from freight trains, refrigerator cars — women and children and these people we would take to the welfare organizations in the city, or travelers organizations and if it were a worthy cause they would feed them for a reasonable length of time and get them on their way to their homes. We also picked up hundreds of people thumbing on the highways, especially women and children going in all directions, and give them aid if it were necessary. We only arrested those that we thought might be wanted, or those who were ill, down and out, couldn't travel. We did pick up many wanted criminals, escaped convicts and what have you, and many mental cases. Many from California: We notified California that we had them, but they weren't concerned about them at all. No 15 one wanted those men who were traveling the roads, they wouldn't hire them and it was a bad condition all the way around. GD: Again, during the first interview I think you told me that you were called back to work in the Vice Squad to work vice, narcotics, gambling and bootlegging, etc., during the war years and during the time that Camp Kearns and Ft. Douglas were going strong. Can you tell us about the problems that were associated with the great number of military men that were in the city during the war years? D: Yes. Prostitution was handled entirely different during the way years. All prostitutes were ordered out of Salt Lake City. They were not allowed to practice their trade anywhere in Salt Lake City, or within a radius of twenty miles of Salt Lake City. The government requested this of the city police and it was illegal for any prostitute to operate within this radius. It was a tough assignment to convince these prostitutes that that's what would have to take place, but finally they realized that their day was over and most of them went to the mining camps, or into Nevada and continued their prostitution there. Hundreds of thousands of troops passed through Salt Lake City and this naturally brought in many of the troops' sweethearts and wives from their home towns and the city was overcrowded with these young ladies. When the soldiers had been processed here and sent on, the next move of course would be an overseas assignment that would leave the girl here or send her on her way home. Many of these girls, as well as some of the married women, remained here. They stayed here, many of them who could afford to take care of themselves, they stayed here for a good time because of the thousands of men who were here. Many of the single girls remained here because employment was easy to find and they would seek employment where 16 the troops were, and soon it became a case of the sweethearts bedding down with the troops and in many, many cases they turned to prostitution. It was hard to enforce because we would have to have reports from the soldier or from a citizen that these girls were practicing prostitution and that was hard to get. We needed evidence to handle these girls, which was easy to get and was recognized by the court, although it was of meager evidence. The girls would go to a room or a motel with the soldier and the vice squad would check these places and all the evidence that was needed to arrest these girls and the soldiers would be if they entered a room and locked the door and turned the light out, these officers rapped on the door and that was all the evidence that was needed. If they entered the room and left the door unlocked and turned off the light and sat on the bed, that was all the evidence that was needed. If they entered the room with the light on, or in daylight and locked the room and you could hear them sit on the bed, that was all the evidence that was needed. A sex act was not necessary. Of course those who claimed they were married had to produce a marriage license. It did happen this way, occasionally they were married, but the evidence was enough to arrest the soldier and the girl and the soldier was turned over to the military police who handled him at his camp wherever he was and checked him out for disease, and he went on his way. The girl was charged with Disorderly Person only and she was checked for venereal disease. That was the main reason we were picking these people up was venereal disease. In some cases the girl would plead not guilty, especially if they weren't girls who were out to make money, many fine young ladies would plead not guilty, but I can't recall a case where the court didn't find them guilty of Disorderly Persons -- it had to be that way in order for the police and the governments operating 17 handling these cases there were so many thousands of them. The girls who did turn to prostitution made lots of money. Price was no object to the soldiers, some of whom were privates, and others were high ranking officers, it didn't make any difference who they were, we would pick them up and turn them over to the military and charge them with Disorderly Person. The government would handle the soldiers. The cafes were loaded at night time with night life and the prostitutes plied their trade in the cafes and the soft drink parlors and motels, and in many cases some of these girls established homes where prostitution was practiced and where they could set up their call-girl system. We had so many complaints and all were answered and the cases were handled as we found them, but where it was possible the girl was checked for venereal disease— that was the object. GD: Well, Dale, this concludes our interview. I want to take this opportunity to thank you, not only in my behalf, but in the behalf of the Weber State College History Department which this tape will go to. There's one thing that I just thought of that we didn't get on this tape. It was on the first tape and that was in reference to a window tapping place that you told me about on the first tape wherein we well know that policemen working with these girls they get to know them and they can call them by a first name basis and this one girl who operated a tap house there on 1st South came to the vice squad and requested that the police not bother her for two or three weeks because her parents were coming from back East and so this was done to accommodate her and this girl ceased her operation as a prostitution and her house as a place of prostitution while her family was here, and once they left then she went back into business again. D: Yes, she went back to work. 18 GD: That's quite an interesting thing. The police did go along with her request on something like that, huh? D: Yes, she was telling the truth and therefore she wasn't practicing prostitution so we had no reason to pick her up. GD: OK, Dale, again thank you for the interview. I appreciate it very much. 19 The Revised Ordinances of Salt Lake City, Utah 1965 in Section 32 list a number of ordinances which have been passed to help control prostitution. Vagrancy is still one of these laws; however, many of the provisions under this law have been declared unconstitutional and are no longer utilized by members of the Police Department to make arrest. Under section 32-2-1, Subsection One, the law declares that it is unlawful for any person to commit a lewd act or an act of sexual intercourse for hire or of moral perversion. This section goes on to list numerous other provisions, but most of the arrests for prostitution in Salt Lake City use the sub-section listed above. All methods to commit prostitution in the early days of this century are currently employed now--streetwalkers, call-girls, and massage parlors. The prices for these services have increased considerably depending upon the customers’ wants. The price varies anywhere from $15 to $100. Due to the fact that prostitution is still illegal, many problems are associated with it that may not exist if it were legalized. Numerous strong-arm robberies or "roll jobs" exist with most of the victims failing to report the robbery because of the possible notoriety involved. Even if a person does report the robbery, many of the victims are unable to identify or unwilling to testify against their assailants in court. Narcotics usage has also increased considerably the last several years and many of the prostitutes are involved with them. Fortunately venereal disease has not been a major problem in the Salt Lake area up to this time, but often times a suspected carrier is held in jail for three days pending a Board of Health check. 20 Attached to this report is an activity report of 1930 concerning police activities in Salt Lake City during that year. The report was reproduced and was contained as an item of interest in the 1972 Salt Lake City Police Department annual report. 21