Oral History Program A. Parley Bates Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah A. Parley Bates Interviewed by Mack S. Taft circa 1960s Copyright © 2016 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Great Depression in Weber County, Utah, is an Oral History Project by Mack S. Taft for completion of his Master’s Thesis at Utah State University during the summer of 1969. The forty-five interviews address the Great Depression through the eyes of individuals in several different occupations including: Bankers, Laborers, Railroad Workers, Attorneys, Farmers, Educators, Businessmen, Community and Church Leaders, Housewives, Children and Physicians. All of these individuals lived in Weber County from 1929 to 1941. The interviews were based on what they remembered about the depression, how they felt about those events and how it affected their life then and now. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Bates, A. Parley, an oral history by Mack S. Taft, circa 1960s, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. 1 Abstract: This is an oral history interview with A. Parley Bates. Mr. and Mrs. Bates discuss their careers in education - mainly his - and hard times during the Depression, including the closure of the Ogden State Bank. Parley Bates was principal at Roy Elementary and at Weber County High School, as well as superintendent of Weber County Public Schools. The interviewer is Mack Taft. MT: Mr. Bates, where did you live from the year 1929 to 1939? PB: I lived in Hooper part of the time up until 1980, and in the fall of 1930, we moved to Ogden. MT: What were you doing at that time? PB: I was teaching. I was teaching history and math and shop in the ninth and tenth grades in school. MT: Where did you teach? PB: I was principal at Roy Elementary and Junior High School for one year from 1929 to 1930. Then in 1930, I went into Weber High School. I was assigned to teach chemistry, and instead of teaching chemistry they placed me in the math department. So I taught math in Weber County High School and was also dean of boys from 1939-41. From 1941-43, I was principal of Weber County High School. In the fall of 1943 I was appointed superintendent of the Weber County Schools. MT: Approximately how much did a teacher earn during the early part of the Depression? PB: Some of them were earning about $800 a year. Others were earning just a little more, but I think the average salary was just $800. I went up as principal of Roy 2 School, I think to $1,050. Then when I went to Weber County High School, I got $1,100. And then the next year, I forget just when it was, but during that time, they cut us back $100 a year. So I made less than $1,100 that one year. And I said to my wife, "If I could ever make $1,500, I think that would be a big salary.” Now, you taught your full load at the high school. We taught six classes. There wasn't a free period. We taught six classes. MT: Was it difficult for people to secure teaching positions at that time? PB: Of course I don't know about the securing of teachers up until 1941, but I was under the impression that we were pretty well staffed with the same people. I don't remember many people moving, particularly out of the high school. So as a whole, they were holding pretty tight to their assignments. MT: You didn't ever become unemployed during the Depression? PB: I was never unemployed from 1925 until 1966 when I retired. MT: Do you think of any amusing incidents that happened to you during that time - or to any of your associates - that depict the economic conditions of that time? PB: I think that the year I was principal at Roy, in 1929-30, I had some experiences over there with some teachers because I think teachers were hard to get. The younger teachers, I don't think, adapted themselves. Of course they weren't trained as they're trained today. They just came in on two years of college and got a certificate, and one interesting incident happened. I walked into a classroom one day and found the teacher asleep at the desk. The interesting thing about it was that the superintendent of the schools was B. A. Fowler, who had also noticed that there was some difficulty with this particular teacher. So I 3 warned her about it. But she didn't come back the next year. She thought I was terrible. MT: Do you recall people around you here, Mr. Bates, that were really hard-pressed during the Depression years? I really can't. I think that most of the teachers, if they were not married, were living home with their parents. Many of them, if they were on the farms, would go out after teaching, and if they were single they would help their dads on the farm so that they could survive. I suppose that there were some difficulties in their homes. With the girls, they hesitated -any of them hesitated about going to summer school because they felt that they couldn't afford it. But from the time we came into Hooper in 1925, we didn't miss a summer school except one year from 1925 until 1935 when I received my master's degree from the University of California. We were at school all the time. When we came back from California one year -came back from the University of California into Ogden -- the ladies we were renting from (we held the home for the summertime.) And I was going to go up to the Ogden State Bank to get a little money so that I could go on and get a few groceries and things. Instead of that, when I was going up the street, the Ogden State Bank had broke. So the bank commission had closed it because of difficulties in the bank. So I went up to Coalville, where I had a cousin who was in the bank up there, and my mother and father, and he loaned me $20, and the folks loaned me $20. So we had $40. But when I came back from Berkley, I had $1.65 in my pocket, and that $1.65 4 was every penny that we had in the world. But we did go to school. We had a determination to go on and advance a little bit. But here's an interesting thing that happened in the Weber County High School. There wasn't another person on the faculty that was going away to school. Of course we didn't have a lot of faculty. And they began to rib me because I was going away to school. And I said, "Well, someday this will pay me back." And as a result of it, I went on and some of the others felt that they should have had the jobs when the promotions came up, and I received them. But we sacrificed. I had one suit of clothes, and they were getting pretty thin. But when we were going to school up at Utah State, when we finished up there in 1930, we lived in a tent on the quadrangle. And there were a lot of people who lived in tents up there. We cooked outside, and we cooked up in what they called the grove, up behind the present library building. There were a goodly number of people. I would judge there were at least 10 or 12 families living in tents... But we did make these sacrifices in order to go on to school because teacher salaries did not pay very well, there's no question about that. One time when I was at Berkley there was some fellow from Arizona that I became acquainted with. He was head of a junior college down there, and we came close together because we were pitching horseshoes on the same team in the education department. And he offered me an assignment. It was down in Arizona, near Mesa. He says, "If you'll come, I'll get you $2,000." That was on the college level. So it was apparently being affected elsewhere other than here. But even in Berkley, we'd 5 drive to Oakland and go to the farmers market down there and buy a case of oranges for 50 cents. And we bought fresh vegetables there for reasonable prices, and we got by. But talking about rent, while we were living on 16th Street, we paid $25 a month rent for a big home that was not furnished. It was modern except for heat, so we didn't do so bad. It was a cold place to live, but then we got by with it. MT: How many children did you have at that time? PB: We had two children, and they were both in school. We saw to it that they had plenty to eat and plenty to wear, but we had nothing left when we got through. MT: What would you consider the greater problem at that time - food or clothing? PB: Well, I think clothing. I think you could go buy food pretty easily. We paid 5 cents a quart for milk. In fact we paid 5 cents a quart for milk when we came out to North Ogden in 1936. We just went across the street for it, and it was good milk, contaminated a little bit - my wife got fever. But I think that food was more readily available than clothes. It didn't require as much cash to get it. MT: What about transportation through those years? What did you do for transportation? PB: Well, I had a Model-T car. I had a Model-T when we were married back in 1921. And that lasted I don't know how long. Then when we came to Hooper, I bought another Model-T, and I paid $800, no $645 for the Model-T, a 1920 model. Finally we thought we ought to do a little better, chasing back and forth to California, so I bought a used Pontiac. And it was a good car. Transportation was not bad as far as we were concerned. 6 MT: Other than people in teaching, what is your recollection of people that you knew in the building trades or something along that line? Were you associated with anyone in other occupations that you might contrast with the teachers? PB: Well, I really was not familiar with anyone in the building trades. I think that the building - as far as I can remember - nothing was done in the schools, you had to teach. And of course the population wasn't increasing either, so your demands for additional classrooms was not like it has been in recent years. But that soon changed as World War II came about. Because they came and got teachers and everyone else, old men and young men and old women and young women to go out to the Depot to work. I can't remember, but to tell you the truth, if I were to go on the street in Ogden, we'd see a few people who were coming up and begging for something to eat. I've always said to them if they'd come up, "Well, I'll go buy you something to eat, but I won't give you any money to go buy it." So they didn't want that. They wanted the money, of course. But I didn't see a lot of real Depression. They didn't have the things that they would like to have. But looking back on it over years as a whole, I don't think the people in the Intermountain area suffered like they did someplace else, some of the other places. I was in Berkley in the summer of '31, '32, '33, and '34, and gosh, I can't remember. There were quite a number of vacant places to rent but I can't remember of anyone around here or down there that was actually suffering, they were getting by. MT: What do you think you learned from the Depression that's carried through into your life today? 7 PB: Well, I want to say that the money that we earned - and of course Lucille was a teacher, too, and when she got teaching that gave us a little more financial security and more to enjoy in our home. Here's an interesting thing. We bought this land here in 1938 and early 1939. We bought an acre of land for $400. So then I had a fellow come out and bid on it to build this home. He says, "Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll build it and I'll let you work for me. Then you can cut the price to you for the amount of time that you worked." Of course I worked some, but not too much. But this home, which is 960 square feet, at that time cost us less than $4,000. It was $3,800. I came out here and asked a man not too long ago to tell us how much it would cost to remodel, and he says to me, and he's in the building business, "If I were you, I wouldn't do it because it will cost you more to build a porch and increase the size of your garage than your home cost you." He said, "If we were building you a home like you've got here today. I'd have to charge you between $15,000 and $17,000." and we got it for $4,000. We moved in December 4, 1940. So that gives you an idea of the cost of lumber and building costs, and they were glad to get building. Because of what we did here, we happened to know the man, and he built ours and then he built the neighbor's, and then he built the next neighbor's. So putting it altogether, it was something for him to do. But as far as teaching, I don't know. I question this, and I always have done. I question whether or not I was as good a teacher before I had been trained until after I had gotten my four-years education. Because I came down here to teach school without a degree. I came here from North Summit School District. I made $70 a month up there as principal in a two- 8 room school. But I got $110 a month for nine months when I first came to Weber County. MT: Mrs. Bates, do you think of anything that you recall from the Depression years that might be of interest? Mrs. Bates: I was thinking when you were talking about transportation: we have lived on 16th, and the carfare was 5 cents. If we wanted to go to a show, we were close enough to walk although it was quite a long way. We used to walk because we felt that we couldn't afford the 5 cents. I know that what little we could save during the winter, we spent all of it during summer school, and we would just have enough to carry us that first month because we were paid on a nine-months basis then, not on a 12-month basis. We always had plenty to eat, we always had a car, didn't have any debts except possibly a payment on a car sometimes. I was not teaching during the Depression. I did not teach until the 1940s. I taught before I was married, but then in the early 1920s, they would not let women teach if their husbands were working. Only one could work. And that was the same in the Depression. MT: Did you do any sewing and canning and that type of thing? Mrs. Bates: Yes. I did. I did most of my own sewing and canning. They didn't have prepared products like they do now, or I might have bought more. Well, I know for one thing that you didn't get along without debts unless you were very careful how you spent. We didn't have any surplus, and most of our friends, I think, were the same. 9 PB: They had to curtail a lot of school activities, particularly in high school. The high school activities were conducted all during the daytime except basketball, and they just had to curtail any expense - transportation of school buses or anything else because of the fact that it was expensive to operate. I think it was as difficult to administer the needs of the school as it would be at the present time. Of course there's added responsibilities and new innovations that come in all the time to the school system, but I think generally speaking that the instruction, at least at the county high school, was excellent. I think it was good. Mrs. Bates: I thought you might be interested to tell him that you worked on Saturdays. He worked on Saturdays while he was going to school in Logan. He worked at Skaggs on Saturday for $5 a day, and he worked 17 hours. You weren't allowed to sit down even if there weren't any customers. PB: That's right. There was no self service. Mrs. Bates: And you also know that you got your degrees while you were teaching, and you traveled from Hooper to Logan every Saturday one winter. That was called one-campus credit. PB: I carried a full load, 18 hours. There were four of us went up in order to get home before three. Mrs. Bates: When you were teaching and we were living in Ogden, you sold shoes on Saturday. When you were saying where people were poor, I remember you telling that people would come in for shoes and they would have the sole of their shoes gone completely and their bare feet on the ground. And you would put a 10 piece of cardboard or something in their shoes if they couldn't afford to buy something else. PB: That was one thing about this shoe deal because people were searching for jobs... And they said, "Why, you're a schoolteacher. You don't need this job. Why can't someone else come in and fill in on this assignment?" I remember George Herrod and a Maughan that was operating the shoe store, and he said, "Yes, but can you come in here and sell shoes like Mr. Bates can, who has had a lot of experience? I've got to have someone come in on Saturdays who knows how to sell shoes. Mrs. Bates: You also remember that you went down here to the factory down here, and you also took out young boys in the bean fields to supervise the picking of the beans for the factory. PB: Well, I'd do anything that they could get me to do. I didn't slump out on my summer school. This was before and after summer school was over. Well, Mack, I don't know whether this has given you anything that you want or not. Mrs. Bates: I think also we ought to put in there that women did not work. Today almost any woman can go to work, but then women did not work. If the man had a job, they usually figured one in the family worked. I think that was an important part of the Depression. I don't know, maybe schoolteachers fared better than most of them. PB: That's the way I've always felt. Mrs. Bates: Because they usually had jobs. I think that generally we fared as good as the average and better as many because you did go back to your school every 11 year if you were satisfactory. And people went back, and even though you did have low salaries, you did have a job. PB: The difficulty then, as it would be now - those people who were in debt then had a hard time to make a go of it. Mrs. Bates: We never had debts, and a lot of people went under. PB: And the people today, some of them have from $25-$40,000 homes. Well, if they were to be let off their job, to lose their job for one reason or another, they'd have a pretty hard row because they couldn't make it. Mrs. Bates: It seems to me like I remember where there were quite a few vacant houses. I think maybe people moving around, or had lost their homes. They were vacant for quite a few years. It started in 1929 through pretty much until the war work gave employment, so there was a good 10 years. This town, when we came home from California, was quite a thing because we had $88 in the bank to last us from when summer school got out until his school started. And we’d just moved, come into this new house and paid our rent here, cashed a couple of three checks for food and lights and gas, and the next day, we were broke. We were in the house, and his check didn’t go through. We lost the check. MT: That money in the Ogden State Bank – did you ever receive any of that? PB: We got practically all of it back. Mrs. Bates: It was years, but we got practically all of it back. But then he had cashed – paid the rent and she was smart enough to find out quick – well, she put the check through, and he borrowed $50, and of course we just returned that. We just never had it. We never got it. And then he cashed a check at the store. We’d 12 been away all summer and didn’t have any food in the house. We’d just come down on a Friday, and he went down and it was closed. He had the balance – the change he got back from the $5 he cashed – was $1.65. And we took it to put gas in the car and went home to our folks and borrowed enough money to carry us through his first paycheck. I guess that’s the tightest we’ve ever been. But that was in 1929 when all the banks crashed and all that just went down all at once. MT: I have been told that the bank closed out paying 65 percent of all its debts. PB: Well, the small depositors got back more than the… Mrs. Bates: I can’t remember exactly, but the children had a little bit in - $10 or $12 – but it was a long while before it was paid back.