Community Oral History Kathleen Hirabayashi Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 9 November 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Hirabayashi, Kathleen, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 9 November 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview November 9, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewee: Kathleen Hirabayashi Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with Kathleen Hirabayashi, conducted November 9, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, Kathleen shares her memories of living in Ogden’s Japantown after her family fled California to avoid the internment camps of World War Two. Kathleen describes life in Ogden’s Japantown and her memories of helping to run her family’s grocery store on 25th Street. She recalls her childhood impressions of Union Station and the variety of people the railroad brought to Ogden, including celebrities. AK: Today is November 9th, 2023. I am in the home of Kathleen Hirabayashi, speaking with her for the Ogden Union Station Centennial exhibit. My name is Alyssa Kammerman and I’ll be conducting the interview. So starting out, I’d like to get your parent’s background. Where were they born and what brought them out to California? KH: Well, my father was born in Hawaii, and when he turned 16, they, I'm not really sure if they moved back to Japan, and then he migrated to the United States. And I'm not quite sure what year that was – in the 1930s. And his sister also moved to California, and she married, and he married, and he lost his first wife. So that's how he came to the United States. And my mother was born in San 1 of 44 Francisco, California. They had an arranged marriage where there was 12 years difference between the two of them. They were married in, I'm just guessing, 1935 [laughs]. But from California, then World War Two broke out and there they were told they were going to be sent to camp. And what they were going to do is, anyone that held any leadership role in the Japanese community, they were going to take them and imprison them and I guess do an interrogation. But they got a message from someone saying that what you should do is move inland where you won't have to be incarcerated. And so my dad and my uncle decided maybe, because they both held offices in a, it was a Japanese social kind of club, and so there was really nothing to it. But then, you know, they thought, well, they better not take a chance because then they'd have to leave their family alone. So they all jumped into a tomato truck and loaded everything on the tomato truck and came to Utah. And the first stop was in Ogden, where there was a man who owned a mercantile store, a Japanese friend. And so he gave them some advice, what to do and where to go and everything. And so we ended up in Honeyville. And Honeyville has a Buddhist church there. And so they've, the whole family... I guess there were a lot of families that they were helping, you know, because they were coming from the West Coast inland, so they won't have to go to camp. And so they were there for a little while. They had an upstairs. It was a large upstairs; I don't recall it, but I've seen it afterwards, when I grew up. But we all, I guess, had sleeping bags and slept on the floor. My family and several of the Japanese families found work at Perry 2 of 44 Cannery. And within that area, there were barracks – they called them barracks, like Army barracks – and so there was housing there for them. So they got a job and then they found housing there, and so they worked for a time, and my father after a while built a home there, which is still standing. And it's really interesting because it's made of cedar block. And you know that there were four kids and so there were six of us. But as I recall, when I was little, you know, although it was a fun place to live because in the back of the house was a little grocery store that he supplied groceries for the Japanese community, that all worked at the cannery. So it was a tight-knit community taking care of each other, so. Going back a little bit, I was born in L.A., in 1941, on December 23rd, and I was delivered by a midwife. At the time that I was being delivered, my mother said that they had a blackout, and that they had that occasionally, you know, during the first part of the war, I guess. And so that's when I was born, with a midwife in the dark [laughs]. But anyway, yeah, I was four months old and came to Utah, and my brother was two. So after we settled in the home that dad had built and my other sister was born – well, both sisters were born at the Brigham City Hospital, which doesn't exist right now. That's been torn down a long time ago. And then we stayed there until, oh, 1946? Because I was six years old when we moved to Ogden. He found a place to rent to open up a grocery store. He was a real entrepreneur. You know, he had big, big dreams, and so he was opening a grocery store there, and that was around 1947, I believe. And actually, 3 of 44 he had rented a space for a grocery store for several years, and then he decided to buy, so he bought the building. Are you familiar with Star Noodle? Well, our grocery store was right next door to them, and, you know, they're our good friends. And it was kind of nice. You know, they all did business together. When we moved to the second location grocery store, the upstairs used to be apartment buildings, and on 25th Street, that's known as a notorious 25th Street, where there's, you know, gambling and and killing and all kinds of rough stuff, you know. And that's where we lived. And upstairs was, I think they said it used to be a brothel, but when we bought it they cleaned everything out. And we, all four of us, had our own room because there were just little apartment rooms, you know. And so it had a – well, each of us had space for two little rooms: one for the bedroom, and the next one is, on the other side, there's a gas stove. And I assume that was supposed to be their kitchen. But all four of us had our own rooms, which was kind of nice, especially as a kid [laughs]. So that's how we grew up, on 25th Street. And, you know, the one thing that's really memorable to me is that we lived a sheltered life, because it was a Japanese community, we were all considered Japantown, and all the merchants were all were all very close, and so it was a real tight community where they took care of each other. Next door was Star Noodle, and then the store on the other side of Star Noodle was like a jewelry store, and eyeglass store. I had friends across the street where we were kind of all the same age. And there was a little cafe called Yuke's Cafe. I think they did an article of Uke's Cafe in the paper at one time, 4 of 44 and, you know, they called Mary (Yuke’s wife) the “Angel of 25th Street” because she would offer the homeless food and things like that. And my mother got the same label because when they would come begging in the grocery store, then she would give them the lunch meat that, you know, is kind of drying out. And, you know, they couldn't sell it anyway, so she had those regularly. She would give them meat and a loaf of bread and stuff like that. So you know, I think the bums out there were very protective of any of us because that's what their source of food is, you know, and they get help from us. So, you know, we felt pretty safe. Plus, my dad was very strict. You know, he made sure we didn't go anywhere that he didn't know. And, it was a rough street. It was. I mean, to us as kids growing up, we didn't know that because, you know, we were running around and doing all kinds of stupid things. But anyway, next to the little cafe, there was a barber shop – they're all Japanese-owned – and then a dry cleaner. And then there's a small cafe. It was called Sunrise Cafe. And in-between, there was an appliance store. And then after that, there was another cafe called the Eagles Cafe. And those are kind of basically the businesses that all kind of stuck together and, you know, took care of each other. There are also apartment houses there because all the buildings right now that are existing on 25th Street they're... Well, they've changed. They modernized it. But then, you can still tell it was the old apartment houses. And a lot of them, like the restaurants, their house was also upstairs. So, you know, we did a lot of living in apartment places. 5 of 44 But it was kind of fun growing up. We never were scared or anything. You know, we'd hear about things, but kind of, you know, didn't concern us, so we didn't worry about it. So as we got older, we start to be a little bit more cautious. But then, we had a pretty fun growing-up because we're all very sheltered. So nobody would dare approach us or anything. So it was fun. AK: What are some of your memories of playing around on 25th Street with your friends? KH: Oh, well, let's see. We used to... Well across the street, behind the cafes, there was, it was like a jungle, you know; there were trees all around there. And we would play, and there were a lot of us because the Eagles Cafe family had four children, and then next door, the appliance store, they had five children. And then the one next door to that, they had three children, and the one girl that was one of the three was one of my best friends. And so we did a lot together. We played a lot in the backyard with all the kids, where there's a bunch of us, and then we used the sidewalk to roller skate, bike. As long as we stayed around that area, you know, they didn't worry about us. We had the first grocery store that my father was renting. There's a big building behind our building, but there was a huge lot back there. Besides, I mean, there was a building. It was a large building. It was called the BPOE. It's a veteran's club? AK: I think I've heard of that. 6 of 44 KH: I can't remember. But anyway, back there was also like a jungle, so, you know, we got in a lot of trouble just digging dirt and getting dirty and running around and acting like Tarzan and [laughs]. And then after that, the company there built a parking lot. And so from there, we would fly kites. And, you know, we had lots of pets that were running around. And so it was sheltered, but it was a nice life growing up. The only things that we would hear sometimes are robberies and things like that. But there were a lot of bars on 25th Street, and the one that was across the street and on the corner is called Poncho's Cafe. And that was notorious for, you know, knife fights and things like that. And there was even one man that was a pimp, and he got his throat slit, and I didn't see it, but then I heard all the commotion, so I looked out there and found out that he was bleeding and he was praying. He says, "I don't want to die. I don't want to die." And by the time the ambulance got there, he didn't make it because they just did a number on him. And I mean, he was a pimp. He was a dapper, always dressed well, you know, and little did we know about what a pimp does [laughing]. It's interesting because when I was growing up, we used to help in the grocery store, and so I'd man the cash register. And one lady came in, and she was one of the prostitutes, you know, and she bought a box of Kotex pads and she paid for it and then was just ready to take off. And I said, "Oh, let me put it in a bag for you," 'cause, you know, I was thinking, you don't want to show something like that. She says, "Oh, hell, if they don't know what that's for, that's 7 of 44 their problem." So she just walked out. I mean, that was really memorable. Well, she's right. [both laugh] But, yeah, we were there for... Well, I was there till I got married. I was 19 when I got married. And by then, my brother was, he went to Weber State – Weber College at the time – and then he was hired by General Motors in Detroit. And he got married and then he moved out there. So from there, it was just my two sisters who were basically helping man the grocery store because, well, my, my father was killed in a robbery, and so after he passed away, then it was all up to my mom to try to keep that grocery store going. So she did for a while, but then she had a stroke, so then, you know, everything kind of fell apart. And so the Star Noodle bought the building from us so that she didn't have to worry about the grocery store anymore. So that was good. Was there anything that you wanted to ask me about? AK: Yeah, I have a few questions, actually. So what are your parents' names, first of all? KH: Oh, it's... I'm going to spell it out for you. It's Kunimatsu. K-U-N-I-M-A-T-S-U. That's my dad. And, well, he only had a Japanese name, but everybody called him K, so our grocery store was K’s Market. And his last name is Inouye, I-N-O-U-Y-E. And my mother was born in San Francisco, and her name is Norma. Her Japanese name is Hatsue, H-A-T-S-U-E. And then Yoshinaga, Y-O-S-H-I-N-A-G-A. 8 of 44 AK: So I've heard you say “Japanese name.” So is that a name that they would use mainly just within the Japanese communities? KH: Yes, it was interesting because when we first moved to Ogden, they spoke nothing but Japanese in the home, and so I didn't know any English. So by the time I went to kindergarten in Brigham City, and then when I was in the first grade, I didn't know English, so the teacher thought I was retarded because she would call roll and she'd say, "Kathleen?" I didn't know that was my name [laughs]. And so she was talking to my mother and she says, "She doesn't answer when I call roll, and she's very quiet." And then she explained to her, "Well, she doesn't understand because she doesn't know English." So the first few years was a struggle for me just to try to get to learn the language. But now, I mean, it's a shame because if I could still speak the language (Japanese), it would be nice. I can understand it, but I'm not very good at responding to it. So it's a lost art in my history. AK: Yeah, that makes sense. So did your mom give you both a Japanese name and an English name, then? KH: Yeah, my Japanese name is Akie, A-K-I-E. My brother's name, he's the oldest one, and his name is Norman Koji, K-O-J-I. 9 of 44 AK: And that's one word? KH: K-O-J-I. AK: Koji, okay. And Norman is his English name. Okay. Was your mom’s English name given to her or did she choose it? KH: I think she chose it. You know, when she was old enough, then she chose that name. It's legal. I guess she went through the courts or whatever. But then, you know, at the time, then nobody had an English name. And my middle sister, her middle name is [00:23:47]Kunia. [0.0s] And my other sister, Allison's, name is Chizuru, so I call her Chiz. AK: How do you spell that? KH: C-H-I-Z-U-R-U. I said she was the spoiled brat of our family. AK: Was she, or are you just saying that because she's going to join us later? [laughs] KH: Oh no, I just know. She knows she was the spoiled one too. 10 of 44 AK: I love it. So, okay, I'm curious to back up a tiny bit. So when you were saying that your parents were fleeing California, you said that going inland was safer. Why is that? KH: Well, because if you're further enough inland, then they don't think you're that much of a threat because it's the West Coast and East Coast is where, you know, they're worried about spies and, you know, they're communicating with Japan somehow, things like that. And so they envision that that's what they were doing, you know, and so they're considered spies, but then they don't have that capability if you moved inland. So they said if you – I don't know who they're hearing all this from – but they said if you move inland, then you won't have to go to camp. So very early on, that's what they did. They moved to Utah. AK: That's so interesting. Did they have, like, siblings or other family that also moved to Utah with them? Or did their siblings and parents have to go to camp? KH: Yeah, well, it was my dad's sister, her husband, and family. And so my father and his brother-in-law were the head of the family, and so they all came out with us and they were, oh, well, I really don't know exactly who all the people were that, that evacuated and came to Utah. But the shame of it is, they can only take so much because… And what my father did, he owned an apartment house. It's called Nevada Apartments. And they said, "You better get out of town quick or you'll get arrested." And that was mainly because of the two of them, they were 11 of 44 going to be questioned and arrested and sent to some other place, and then they would send the family to camp. So in order to avoid that, they hurried in and packed and came. So they had to leave quite a bit. And, you know, it's a real shame. But he had this apartment house, and someone bought it from him for $2,000 because they says, "You're not going to need it." And so he got $2,000 for an apartment house that was as-is; So everything – all the furniture and everything – was all still there. And they gave up a lot. So that was a real hardship for them. And my uncle was a farmer and they had all their things that they had to leave. So it was, you know, it was a really interesting history that they had to go through that and, you know, leave town. They didn't want to, but, you know, if they got arrested, then there would be no one to take care of the family, and they each both had four or five children. So they had to make sure that everybody's safe, so they came out here. AK: Scary times. So with the Japantown in Ogden, did most of the people there come there because they were fleeing the coast, or did they come for railroad jobs? KH: No, none of them came for railroad jobs. They all were businessmen that had their own specialty, but they did come from all over, and I'm not sure exactly where. And, you know, it's not something that we even talked about, but they're mostly a transplant into that street. And yeah, I don't know how long it's been there, but Japantown was already established basically when we got there, so it 12 of 44 must have been early on. And so, most of them, though, were not originally from Ogden. AK: Okay. So what was the radius for Japantown? Where was that exactly? KH: Oh, let's see. I'm trying to remember. Most of it was between Grant and all the way down to the Union Station. There was another Japanese grocery store closer to the Union Station, and there were lots of bars and apartment houses there too. So that was about three blocks long. And then it went from 24th Street, where there was also a few Japanese establishments, and because there was a fish house and a bar that were all Japanese-owned. But that went from 24th to 25th Street. See, this is my small circle of knowledge, and it goes down to Wall Avenue. AK: Okay. And was it mainly on one side of the street, or were they on both sides of 25th Street? KH: Both sides, yeah. Yeah. And we were one of the few that were on the south side. Most of the businesses were on the north side. But my dad’s grocery store was on the south side and the Star Noodle, and there was a few Japanese who had businesses there, but it's mostly on the north side. AK: Is Star Noodle the one that has the dragon sign? 13 of 44 KH: Mm hm AK: Okay. I was hoping I was remembering that correctly. KH: Yeah, it's an Ogden landmark. Yeah, and that was the original sign. You know, this beautiful… at night, that was the one thing that stood out was the huge dragon. It's just really, it was, it was pretty. AK: That's so cool. And is that still in the original location, where it's at now? KH: Yeah. AK: Okay. Because I know it was taken down for a while, and then people put it back up and restored it so that's why I was wondering. KH: You know, that was the original sign that they put up, and it must be maybe 75 years old, I think, or more when they built that. That's amazing. AK: It is amazing. Okay, so it's in the original spot, and then your grocery store would have been right next door to it. I was trying to think of it in my mind. KH: Yeah. Well, if you've ever seen that restaurant Pig and a Jelly Jar. 14 of 44 AK: Yes. KH: Well, that's where our grocery store was. AK: The same building, too, and everything? KH: Yeah, same building. We walked in and I told them, "We used to live here years and years ago, so is it okay if we look around?" They said, "Sure. Just, go wherever you want to go." And so, you know, we had a basement downstairs at the grocery store, and that's where we had our laundry room and everything. But then beyond that was like poker tables, gambling stuff, and it was all just stacked and put in a corner. And then just a little bit beyond, though, there was a door that my dad prohibited us from going into. And it's dark and it's scary downstairs, you know, so we never did. I took a peek, you know, but it was really dark. But my brother and his friends, they explored. It was one of those... I don't know if you're familiar with the 25th Street history, but there were tunnels underneath the buildings, and a lot of it was supposed to be a passage to the opium den. So there were Chinese there, too, and they had an opium den somewhere. Anyway, but they were always looking for it, never could find it. And found out it was in one of the tunnels, you know, and I'm not sure how far those tunnels go because my brother, went quite a ways, you know, playing around as kids. and then finally got chased out of there. 15 of 44 AK: Really? So he bumped into people down there? KH: Well, I don't know. He just, you know, somebody, I don't know there that, you know, it was still kind of, it was semi-active. So I'm sure there was somebody down there thinking, "You better get the hell out of here." AK: That's a good story. KH: But he knows a little bit about the basement, but we never did. And now when we toured the place, the basement is a bar. The Pig and a Jelly Jar turned it into a bar. And so, I mean, it was a narrow building, but it was really spacious because it goes way far back into a back alley. And well, we had in our apartment house, there were like six apartments. And then beyond that, there was a kitchen, my mother's kitchen, and then just beyond that is their bedroom. And then on the other side of the kitchen was the living room, you know, so that's where we watch TV and all kinds of stuff. And there was another extra bedroom in the back there, so there's plenty of space, very spacious. We really got spoiled because, you know, we weren't ever living in any cramped conditions or anything. It was pretty nice to have your own bedroom and your own stove if you wanted to cook. Nobody cooked, but [laughs]. 16 of 44 AK: That's awesome. Interesting that they still had a poker table and stuff in the basement. Did you guys have to clean out that building before you lived in it? KH: Well, we did, but then my dad just left everything down there that was there. So, you know, the poker tables and the gambling stuff was all just there, were just piled on top of each other. So we do remember seeing it, but, you know, they just left it. Yeah. AK: Okay. Do you know what brothel was there beforehand? KH: I don't know. I don't know if they had a name. AK: Yeah. That's fair. I just know a couple of them did, but that's a good point. Some of them weren't even openly brothels. KH: So it was like a hotel, you know, and they would go to the hotel. And so it was on our side of the street. It was on the south side. So that's how we got the business from the prostitutes and all the bums. AK: Okay. That makes sense 'cause it's right there on the same side. Did you guys have access to Japanese products that you could sell in your grocery store? 17 of 44 KH: Uh, well, my dad sold a few, but, you know, not a lot of it because he didn't want to compete with the other grocery stores that were selling the Japanese foods and, you know, mercantile stuff because most of his business anyway was either Hispanic or Black. So that was most of our customers. They're all a minority, which is interesting. You know, if you look at the history of any of the states that have a Japantown and Chinatown and, uh, what do they call the Black community? Uh... But anyway. And then the Hispanic. If you look at the different states – and I thought it was interesting because even, we went to a lot in California when I grew up and the Japantown was here and then the Black community was here and then the Chinese and Hispanic. So all the minority still stayed within the minority range because, you know, they're not comfortable. Well, and then besides that, you know, because of prejudice; you know, the white people won't let them buy homes there and things like that. So that was basically the only reason that the Japantown existed, was because I'm sure they tried other places, but it was not a welcoming area, so. AK: Yeah, a lot of other people I've talked to have remembered the segregation that was going on in Ogden. Did you notice that as a child? KH: Noticed…? AK: Like any segregation or racism or anything towards your family? 18 of 44 KH: Well, yeah. I mean, you know, there... It's really difficult for me to remember a lot of it. But one of the things I do remember: my mother was a very stylish dresser and the grocery store was very successful, so she would go into, like, there was a department store called the Emporium, which is more of a high-end shop where you can get your better clothing there. And we were all there with her. And, you know, she's only like less than five feet, but she's very feisty. And nobody would wait on her. You know, she'd be standing there and it's very obvious. Somebody else comes up and then they start helping them. So, you know, they just ignored her. Oh, boy, was she mad [laughs]. She got up and tore the employee up and down and said, "I want to talk to your manager." She talked to the manager and everything. And the manager was very apologetic because, you know, they said, "We don't mean to do that." But little things like that happen all the time. You know, when we were growing up downtown, I didn't feel comfortable going to the movies because they look at you like, "What are you doing here?" [laughs] But, yeah, there's prejudice all around. And, you know, that's probably why the Japanese were very cliquish. You know, they stayed within their own community and they still did business with the other companies, you know, because they had to get the groceries, and the bakery, and all of those different things. So, you know, they had to get it from somewhere. So they’d venture out. Well, my dad, you know, like I said, he's a very... Entrepreneur. He just ventured out to find out where to get things and how to get it and... 19 of 44 A lot of the owners in Japantown joined a police club called the Footprinters' Association, and I think that's still in existence. It is an association where it involves the police and then all the small businesses around. And they did say, "Anytime you have any trouble, you just call us and we'll be right there." And it is true because a lot of them, you know, if we had somebody come in and steal stuff, then – well, my mother was very feisty. [laughs] She really… One time, this bum came in and he stole a can of SPAM, and he had it in his jacket pocket, and she grabbed it and [shaking her hand] says, "What's this?" And bang! [mimes throwing the can against his leg] And the bum said, "Oh, I'm sorry, Mrs. K. I'm going to pay for it." [laughs] They called her Mrs. K. But, you know, all five feet of her was pretty feisty, you know, she's pretty tough. And even the police told my dad, "If you have trouble with someone, you should let your wife try and take care of it to kick them out. Because if you did it, then you could get in a fight and they could cause you lots of problems.” And so that's how my mom got tough, I think. AK: Was she less likely to get in trouble with the cops? KH: No, with the bums that come in. Usually they weren’t violent like they are today. You know, they just, they steal for food, and so that's why my mother was very aware of that. And she would give spare whatever if somebody needs help. 20 of 44 AK: And they're not going to pick a fistfight with a woman, I guess. That makes sense. Interesting. KH: Yeah. Most of them are male chauvinists, so they don't want to, you know, be manhandled by a woman [laughs]. But that's how we grew up. And we all helped in the grocery store. We stocked groceries, and we swept the floors. We had one Hispanic lady that worked for us. She was a grocery clerk, and she learned all the Japanese words, you know. For someone that, a robber or a stealer is dorobo. And so she's Mexican and she says, "Oh yeah, I remember that! Dorobo." [laughs] They were always having us kids watch out for anybody that's trying to steal something, and I was a little bit more cautious, you know, I didn't want to just stand there and stare, you know? But my youngest sister, Chiz, she'd go run up to them and watch them shop, following them. And they got really annoyed, you know, "Do you think I'm going to steal something?" AK: [laughing] That would make you uncomfortable, that a little child is watching. KH: Yeah [laughs]. But that's how we watched for any stealers. AK: Did you ever catch any? 21 of 44 KH: Oh, yeah, yeah. Sometimes they would get belligerent and everything, so we’d call the police and they come right over and, I don't know, probably put them in jail for overnight or something. But you know, they weren’t violent like they are nowadays. AK: Were your parents ever worried about the pimps that would be in that area, too? Like kidnapping you or anything? KH: No. Well, I don't know [laughs]. AK: They didn't ever talk about it or anything? KH: No, they don't ever talk about it. You know, they're trying to shelter us, so we don't know a lot about what was happening there. All we know is that there's a lot of bums there and drunks, you know, a lot of them; they just drink too much and they're lying on the sidewalk and things like that. But, you know, they never really affected us that much. AK: Did they ever teach you to stay away from strangers, just in case? KH: Yeah, yeah. I mean, they warned us about, you know, stay away from the drunkards and the bums and, you know, But thinking back on all that, they're all pretty harmless. They're just homeless and they're hungry. And there are some 22 of 44 that worked for the railroad. There was one man whose his name was Jackson. That's all I remember – I don’t know if that was his last name or first name, but he was a conductor on the train, and every weekend he gets the weekend off. Every weekend he comes to 25th Street and gets drunk all weekend. Other than that, you know, he's just a very fine gentleman. He was Black and he used to come in the store and he had a chain [points to neck to imply necklace] with all these gold coins, and I was just surprised he never got robbed. But he'd walk around like that, and he was a really nice man. You know, they come over and buy groceries and stay in the brothel or wherever they go. But yeah, there's another part of my memory that talks about… uh, you know, the drunkards on the streets? Well, there's this man; He's just a sweetheart. His name is Leo something. Well, my mom called him Leo the Lion, and, you know, he'd do the same thing: He worked for the railroad and then go on a binge on the weekend. And you know, the police are always around 25th Street because that's where all the trouble was in the city. And he was picked up before for being drunk, just, you know, sitting on the sidewalk. And so one time on the weekend, he comes running in the grocery store and says, "Mrs. K, Mrs. K, the police are after me. You got to hide me." So she did. She made him go down into the basement, and I don't know if they came in and was looking for him or not, but she just told him, "The coast is clear." But he was really a nice man, though. You know, when, when he wasn't drunk, he was quiet and was just a sweetheart [laughs]. I mean, there were a lot of really nice bums out there. 23 of 44 AK: That is so funny. Yeah, just people who really love to drink. KH: You know, we don't see their dark side, we just see their good side, and they were always on good behavior with my mom, you know, so. AK: Which is good. That is so funny. Oh, I was going to ask you: Were there railroad jobs that were open to Japanese-Americans at that time? Or was there enough prejudice that they just didn't work on the railroad? KH: You know, I don't remember. There were some that worked for the railroad, but I don't remember who they were. AK: What kinds of jobs did they typically have? KH: I don't have any idea. The jobs that they held were mostly, well, like federal government jobs. There was the DDO Army Depot in Ogden. And that's where the Army had their buildings and things, and a lot of them worked there. They got a job with the federal government, which is a good thing, you know? And the one thing about prejudice is, you know, they're very Americanized. They were not like the Japanese, because my mother and my father both spoke English, and, you know, they were in an area where there were the teenagers, the mothers, sisters, you know, they’re beboppin' and doing all kinds of stuff that, you know, they didn't 24 of 44 understand why they were being incarcerated just because they're Japanese. My mom's mother and father and the rest of the kids that were home were sent to camp because they didn't get away. They lived in more northern, near Sacramento part of California, and they were sent to camp in Arkansas. And my uncle joined the Army. He had a son, and there were six sisters, and they were farming in what's called Flora, California. And so, you know, they were sent to camp because they didn't go anywhere. So they caught him and sent him out. My uncle was in that famous 442 regiment, so he spent four years in the Army. He went to France, Italy and a lot of places overseas, you know. So he was part of that. And they created a memorial, and they interviewed him for what his life was like, and so that's in the archives in Sacramento someplace, I think; because my cousin that lives near Sacramento, he's a disc jockey, but he also was involved in a documentary that he partnered with this lady and they got an Academy Award for that. Yeah, it was quite an honor, yeah. But they had interviewed him and he's got a lot of stories. You could probably get a lot of that kind of background from my cousin. He lives in Salt Lake. His name's Rolen Yoshinaga. AK: And he's your uncle's son? KH: Yeah. AK: So your cousin? 25 of 44 KH: Cousin, yeah. And he has a wealth of knowledge about his dad. And then my girl cousin went on a special trip with Rolen last year that took them through where the Army went to Italy and France. They followed the trail of where the 442 went, where they stayed and everything, and so he learned a lot more from that. AK: That is so cool. KH: Yeah, he's, he has a wealth of knowledge about that. AK: Yeah. One question that I've heard a lot people ask – and I'm wondering, too – is why... I mean, there's all this racism and people are literally being rounded up into camps, and yet a lot of those gentlemen would serve. Was there a lot of talk of being patriotic still, or was it to get out of the camps? Like, do you know why they would choose to do that? KH: Well, a lot of them, I don't know that there are, I'm not sure what incentives they got to join the Army, but they did have recruitments. Um, I guess maybe to get away from camp. They joined the Army. I don't know, I mean, I don't know why. AK: It's speculation. KH: Yeah, but it's an interesting history. 26 of 44 AK: Yeah, because I know a lot of people ask, “Why would you fight for a country that's treating you that way,” you know? And maybe your cousin will know about it. KH: He would probably know better, but, you know, a lot of them were very patriotic – well, I would say most of them were patriotic, and they wanted to fight for the country because, regardless of their race, you know, America's still their home. And so they went to defend that instead of, you know. Well, they really didn't mingle with the other Army troops or other regiments. They were just all totally Japanese in the 442. And they're the ones that were decorated for their bravery and things like that. I know my parents were very patriotic, and they wanted to make sure the people knew that. And so, you know, my dad would hang his flag out there for 4th of July. And, you know, he was a businessman, so he participated in a lot of the city activities. And so, you know, the, the Japanese community would build the float and be in the 24th of July parade, and, you know. But when we were growing up, there's a picture of myself and my brother and he was dressed in an Army uniform. And they want to make sure that everybody knows that we're Americans. But, you know, they're very loyal to America, and sometimes you wonder why, because of how they were treated. AK: Right. Yeah, that was what I was wondering. That is really cool. Going back to what you were saying about your dad being a part of the kind of community club 27 of 44 with the police, was that also not only for protection for the business, but also so the police had more eyes on the ground, kind of? Was it like a neighborhood watch kind of idea? KH: Uh, I don't know if it's like a neighborhood watch, but then, you know, there were more patrols of policemen. And, you know, they did watch out for the businesses on the street, and of course, keeping track of the brothels and all that, too. But for the most part, that was how my dad was involved in the community, is because of the Footprinters' Association. They did a lot of work with the community. And, of course, because it's a policeman's club, basically, and so they were involved in any of the Pioneer days and anything that, you know. They, as a business, it's good advertisement for them. AK: Interesting. Okay. Did you mention that there was a Buddhist church that you guys went to out there as well? KH: Oh, in Honeyville, yes. And when we moved to Ogden, there was a Buddhist church just right on the next block on Lincoln. And so that's where everybody went to church was the Buddhist church on Lincoln Avenue. AK: And what was it called? Did it have a specific name? 28 of 44 KH: Ogden Buddhist Church [both laugh]. Yeah. But that's where they would all get together and they'd have social activities, and then they showed Japanese movies at the church and things like that. But that's where most of our activities were, just within the Japanese community. AK: So did you guys have access to be able to make Japanese food and stuff too? KH: Oh, yeah. Yeah, the... Well, my dad bought some Japanese canned foods and stuff, but, you know, there was the fish market where they sold fresh fish and everything. And there's the mercantile store that had all the different kinds of canned foods with Japanese food. But for the most part, they cooked their own, so just a few of the ingredients that are Japanese, they look for. And my sister-in-law, her parents had a tofu company. They used to make it and sell it to the different grocery stores so that they could sell it to other Japanese. AK: So it sounds like your dad was really involved in the community and everything, and you had mentioned that he was a community leader back in California. Was he just like a part of a social club, or did he have a leadership position specifically? KH: Well, they were basically considered leadership positions because it's a Japanese club. I guess, of course, I was a baby so I don't know what they did, but probably just mostly social. But then, the United States didn't differentiate 29 of 44 between what kind of leadership role you had, so they just took all of them that were in officer positions. So. AK: Interesting. That's really fascinating. I keep meaning to ask you about the Utah Noodle Parlor. I've heard a lot of people talk about that. Did you know the people who ran that place as well? KH: Yeah. Well, they weren't on 25th Street, though. They were on, let's see, Utah Noodle was originally... AK: Like 30th Street, right? KH: Well, that's where the last one was, yeah, on 30th and Washington. But prior to that, Utah Noodle was near 25th Street, because it was between 24th and 25th Street, on the other side of Grant Avenue. So I guess it's Grant Avenue. But there was a restaurant there, it's called Utah Noodle. So it was within the parameters of the Japanese community. AK: That's cool, okay. Do you know who ran it at that time? KH: Um. Hmm. I can't remember. AK: You're good, that's okay. 30 of 44 KH: Some other people might know, but I don't know. AK: You're good. That's totally fine. I was just curious. So, do you have memories of Union Station from when you were a kid? KH: Oh, yeah. I mean, that was the grand building that, you know, you go in there and you think, "Wow, this is awesome," because to us as kids, it was huge. And it was busy all the time because the Union was, you know, people going in and out all the time because they're boarding the train or they're coming off of the train. And so you see a lot of different people come through. They had a magazine rack and comic books and things like that, so I went there to get cliff notes for my book reports. We’d go up there and they... I can't remember if they had ice cream at the time. I don't think it was in the Union Station, it must have been up the street or something. But, yeah. I mean, it was something on a grand scale. You know, it's pretty awesome when you're little, and when I was a teenager, then. But still, it just seemed like… Well, famous people would come in and out through there, you know. And I didn't know that, you know, the celebrities and things, they were all on the train. Well, there was one time when I was working in the grocery store, and this lady was walking down the street with a cane and wore all black and then had a veil on her hat – wide-brimmed hat with a veil. I thought, "Wow, what an odd-looking person, whoever that is," you know. And found out later that it was Eleanor Roosevelt. 31 of 44 AK: Wow! So like just trying to hide? KH: Yeah. She didn't want anybody to know who she was. But she was curious about the famous 25th Street because, you know, I guess it was known all over that it was a... Oh, they called it a Western kind of Bar Town or something. Anyway, she'd heard about 25th Street, so she just walked up and down just to see what it was like. AK: Interesting. I didn't know 25th Street was that famous, like nationwide. KH: Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know if it was nationwide, but if Eleanor Roosevelt knew, who knows how far. But some of the stories that they had in a – from what I understand – they had a crime magazine, and there were oftentimes mentions of the notorious 25th Street. AK: A crime magazine, like people would read about the crimes going on or something? KH: Oh, like True Detective. 32 of 44 AK: Oh, okay. Yes. What are those called? “True Crimes” or something like that. Okay. Um, what were some of the things that you would do for fun? Was there anything on 25th Street that you would do for, like, entertainment? KH: Well. You know, we did play on the sidewalks quite a bit. We played hopscotch, went roller skating, riding bikes. And one year they were digging the whole street up on the one side to put new pipes in. I don't know if it was for water or what, but anyway, they dug up the whole one side of the road, and it was like a ditch down there, and all the dirt was pulled to the side. Well, we used to play in it. Oh, we'd get filthy dirty because it was like, as I recall, it was like kind of red dirt. And [laughs] we wore – one of the things that all of us in the neighborhood liked to get is Indian moccasins. They were so colorful. I mean, they're just comfortable. So I think we all had a pair, and we're playing Cowboys and Indians where they dug it all up, and it was along the whole side of the street, so we would play there for hours. Our parents had to yell at us to get in the house. Oh, that was the extent of what our entertainment was, but it was plenty enough for us. AK: How about as a teenager? Were there any places where you'd go dancing or anything like that? KH: Well, like I said, the Buddhist church was right around the corner from us, and so all of our activities were there, and we used to have dance socials and conferences where we would all get together and have a Japanese feast, is 33 of 44 basically [inaudible]. As a teenager, though, we didn't mingle in the street or anything like when we were kids. So we pretty much stayed off the streets. When I was a teenager, then, you know, we had boyfriends and went out and went someplace else besides where I lived. AK: And did you continue to speak Japanese at home as you grew up, or? KH: Pretty much it was all English, is all I can remember. AK: Was it because you couldn't understand English at school when you were a kid? KH: Yeah, so. You know, I didn't see any sense in speaking Japanese because both my mom and dad spoke English, and that's all we're exposed to, is English. So why would I need to learn Japanese? Which was a big mistake, you know [laughs]. Well, we used to go to a Japanese school and every Saturday all of us went to the church and they had Japanese classes to show us how to write Japanese. And so I pretty much did that every Saturday all the while we were growing up. AK: That is so cool. So you learned how to write Japanese. Did they teach you anything else with the culture or anything? 34 of 44 KH: Well, we learn Japanese dancing. And one of the traditions that they have is every New Year, they make this thing, this celebration. It's a rice cake, you know, and the process of making those, you would just be surprised. I mean, they've never shown a movie like that, but it's really... You'd have to see it to believe it. But they had cooked hot rice, and it's a different kind of rice; it's called mochi rice, and so it's more soft and pliable. But you have to pound it down so it'll turn into nice rice cakes. Well there's one or two guys with a huge mallet, and within that, where the rice, you know, the women cook the rice and pour it on there and they start pounding on it, and you pound on it until it gets soft. But then in between time, each time you pound, some guy has to go in and throw water on it, and then back up, and the pounding comes out. And as soon as it goes up, he runs out and puts more water on it. Or a water or a flour, anyway – Or maybe a little flour to keep it from sticking. And that's a unique old, old thing. Old-time things that they did. But it's interesting, because in California, they try to still keep the traditions alive for different occasions they all do that. AK: Interesting. So is that like those little chewy mochi balls? KH: Mm hm AK: Okay. I love those! KH: Yeah. Oh, do you? 35 of 44 AK: They're so good! I didn't know that's how they were made, though. That's really cool. KH: Yeah, they use it for a celebration at the New Year's. AK: And they taught you how to make it? Or did you just watch them make it? KH: Oh, well, when we were kids, we just watched 'em make it. It was too dangerous to get too close, you know? But we know how to make it now, because it's a Japanese tradition. So I make a bunch of it before New Year's. AK: That's a lot of work. KH: Well, I get a lot of help because all my grandkids come and help, and, you know, I got plenty of help [laughs]. AK: Is that for Japanese New Year's, or? KH: No. Well, it's the same, you know, just the regular New Year's, but that's a Japanese tradition for New Year's is that, you know, you pound the mochi and you have that for the first thing in the morning for good luck. So if you don't have your mochi before you eat anything else, you know, that's not good. 36 of 44 AK: That's really cool. I didn't know about that actually. So, when you’d visit the Union Station, did you ever walk down there yourself, or did your parents take you into the Station? KH: Well, when I was younger, my parents would take us. But then as we got older, we just went down ourselves, you know. AK: Just walk down the street, get the cliff notes and... That's cool. KH: And, you know, in those times, you don't really feel like you're in danger. You just walk in front of all the bars and [laughs]... AK: Brothels. KH: And the brothels. Yeah. AK: That's really cool. Do you have any memory of any other people who worked in the Station, besides the two that you had already mentioned? KH: You know, I don't know. We really didn't do anything there unless we were going on a trip or something. But then other than that, we just went there for the 37 of 44 magazines [laughing] and things like that. But it was more of a, like a social activity, and then you just turn around and go back. AK: So you guys did go on trips out of Union Station? KH: Yeah, yeah. We would. You could just board right there, and when you come home, you'd come to the same station. Yeah. AK: That's cool. Did you ever ride on any of those Pullman cars? Like where you can sleep overnight in the cars or anything? KH: No, no. AK: I'm trying to think of any other Union Station-related questions. I feel like it's way more fun hearing your 25th Street stories, that's why I'm like, "What else?" KH: Because as far as Union Station, there wasn't a lot for us to do there because, you know, you don't work there, and people just going in and out, back and forth, and they have their own destination in mind, so we didn't talk to anybody or... AK: Yeah. Did they have any kind of cultural things? Like, you know how now it's kind of a cultural center where they'll have dances or weddings or anything. Did they ever have anything like that at the Union Station while it was still a train station? 38 of 44 KH: Uh, no, it was basically transportation, is about it. Yeah, I don't remember any, you know, because I was probably too young, so I don't know if they had dances or anything like that. AK: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. How did you meet your husband, by the way? KH: Oh, well, like I said, everything revolves around the Japanese community. Well, every year, they would have a picnic at Davis High School here in their football field. And it was sponsored by farmers, so they called it the Farmer's Picnic. And so a lot of families came from all over. My husband was from Syracuse and they have a large farming community there, and so a lot of people went, and that's how I met him, because he was there, too. AK: You guys got talking and he asked you out? KH: Yeah, well, we got talking, and then we played tennis. They had a tennis court there. Um, just one thing led to another. AK: That's cool. So if you don't mind me asking, how old were you when your dad died? KH: I think I was 19. 39 of 44 AK: This is after you got married, then? Or right before? KH: No, before, yeah. No, maybe I was 18, because we got engaged in August and we had a party and everything. And then.... Let's see. I lost my train of thought. Oh, God. I forgot what I was going to try to say. Ask me another question [laughing]. AK: That's okay. No worries, I was just curious. So you said your father passed away when you were about 18, and then you and your mom were the ones who kept this grocery store running after that? KH: Yeah. She kept it running for a few years, but just couldn't keep up. And I was gone, and one of my sisters, I think, was in college. Well, my other sister is also in college, and I don't know if it's at the same time, but, you know, it was too hard for my mom to keep doing that because it was just her. And then, you know, we would go help whenever we could. Yeah, they didn't last that much longer. And so, she found a place to live. And the Star Noodle, you know, they took over the whole building and everything, and there's no other... The existing restaurant there, I don't know what restaurant is now. They changed hands a couple times. 40 of 44 AK: Besides Pig and a Jelly Jar, I can't remember what it is anymore now. I'm always just staring at the beautiful dragon every time I walk past, so I don't remember. But I'll have to pay attention next time I'm there. KH: Oh, well, anyway, their dining area, they opened up the grocery store side so that they could have private parties and things like that. AK: And where did you move to after you were married? KH: Well, initially, right after we got married, we rented a home on Washington, and it was huge. I don't know why we rented it. It was just available, I guess. But anyway, we decided to move someplace nicer, you know, and we found this place in North Ogden on 1700 North. And I had a baby by then. AK: What did you guys do for work? KH: Well, I stayed at home, and my husband wanted to go to finish college, so he was doing that and then working at, I think it was Thiokol. And so he worked there for a few years until he got a job at Sperry Rand Corporation there by the airport. So he did that for a while. And then after the kids got older, I went to work for IRS, and then eventually he went to work for IRS, too, because, you know, he liked to work with machinery and things like that. So he was in the facilities, and I says, "I'm just going to work part time." So, you know, "I don't want to be 41 of 44 permanent." So I was a seasonal employee. And the longer I work, the longer it seems like, "Oh, it's working." So I finally went permanent because the kids were old enough by then, you know. They're in school and pretty much just come home, and I'd be home by the time they came home. AK: Is that the IRS location right by the old Defense Depot over there? KH: Oh, yeah, yeah. The big building there. Yeah, I started there and then I became a manager. We had a satellite personnel office and it was on Harrison, and all our employees loved it because we were away from, you know, the whole workforce. You know, there's bosses walking around all over the place. So they liked it; they didn't have that many bosses to answer to. But yeah, so that's where they had put personnel there. And so when I retired, I was section chief for personnel. And after that, I worked as a contractor for IRS because they needed help, so we did that too. But after a while, my husband had open heart surgery. And then from there, he tried to work and he worked at Hill Field. He was at Hill Field and worked there for a few years, but he finally had to retire on disability. But all during that time he had... Well, after he left Hill Field, then that opportunity came up where he would be, well, they have these SBA, Small Business Association, it's a federal government, and they're giving loans to minorities or whatever, you know, they wanted to do with their entrepreneurship. And well, Max – that's my husband – he had a friend that owned a building maintenance company. And so, 42 of 44 the government helped him find government contracts. So he worked mostly for the government through contracts, and so he did really well there. AK: That's really cool. Was he an engineer? KH: No, his specialty was electronics. But he ended up not having to do much of that. But anyway, he got his experience through his friend that owned a maintenance company. He showed him the ropes and things and so he got an SBA loan, and they helped him find government contracts. And so that's what he did. They did a lot of maintenance for federal government property, which is very lucrative. AK: I bet. That's awesome. Well, I'm getting close to the end of my questions. Were there any other stories that you wanted to make sure that we recorded? KH: Well, I'm sorry. I didn't have that much about Union Station. AK: Oh, no, this is great. We're looking into the community surrounding Union Station, too, and the way that the Station impacted the community and the people it brought. And you had amazing stories, including the ones about the railroad workers who would come and get stuff from your grocery store and then just go get drunk, and like, that's perfect. So I love it. 43 of 44 KH: [00:38:08] Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, it's interesting, you know, growing up there, you know, I think we got a lot of experience just doing without getting in trouble [laughs]. But, yeah. AK: Yeah, that's so great. Thank you. One of the questions that I've been asking everybody that I've been interviewing is: why do you feel that Union Station is still important to Ogden today? KH: Well, you know, that is something that we really need to preserve. I mean, that's something that's always history right there. There's so much that was happening there that, you know, I think it is a terrible idea to do away with that because, you know, that's part of Utah, that's part of Ogden, and most of their identity comes through Ogden – The whole, I guess, the city of Ogden, because that was the very first main train station, until Salt Lake became the main train station. Ogden was a, there was a big hub of activities because they were considered the main station for the area surrounding northern Utah. So there's too many things that probably are unsaid that I don't know about. But, you know, we need to keep that history. AK: Do you remember the decline of 25th Street after the train stopped coming through? Did you get to see any of that at all? 44 of 44 KH: Oh, well, as far as I know, once the train stopped, pretty much everything stopped there for a while. And then they were doing the museum – that's around the time when I was a teenager – they were thinking about creating this museum. And I remember they had all these old cars. I loved that! That was one of the things that the Union Station hosted, was the antique car show. Oh, my gosh, they're beautiful. And so that was one activity they did. But then afterwards, you know, after the museum, then there was a restaurant moved in and kind of like a souvenir shop and things. So they're slowly getting back into community activities. But it was pretty much like that for quite a while, and, yeah. I haven't been there for so long, I don't know what's going on now. But I know that they have some conferences there, because when I worked for the IRS, we had conferences there. AK: Oh, cool. I didn't know that. Interesting. Well, thank you so much again, Kathleen! I really appreciate your letting me come over today. 45 of 44