Oral History Program Lucille DeMiller Interviewed by Rosemary Stellhorn 29 April 1972 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Lucille DeMiller Interviewed by Rosemary Stellhorm 29 April 1972 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: DeMiller Lucille, an oral history by Stellhorn Rosemary, 29 April 1972, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Lucille DeMiller. The interview was conducted on April 29, 1972, by Rosemary Stellhorn, at 1465 West, 1700 North, Provo, Utah. DeMiller discusses social changes since 1935 to the present as well as Women’s Liberation. RS: This is an interview of Mrs. Lucille DeMiller by Rosemary Stellhorn on April 29, 1972 for the Weber State College Oral History Program. This interview is being conducted at Mrs. DeMiller’s home at 3:30 in the afternoon. Mrs. DeMiller, when were you Dean of Women at Weber College? LD: I was appointed Dean of Women by Dr. Leland H. Creer in 1965. He was the president of the college at that time. RS: What was the enrollment when you first became Dean of Women and how did it grow? LD: As I remember, the enrollment would be around four hundred and fifty to five hundred students. The growth of Weber College at that time was rather slow. RS: How many of those students were women? LD: I would say about two-thirds men and a third women. RS: Did the women have dorms or did the students commute at that time? LD: All of the students commuted at that time. There were no dormitories. They came in from Morgan and all the areas around Ogden. They were mostly Ogden students. RS: Were there any students living in apartment or rooming houses that had come from southern Utah? 1 LD: No, there were very few from Southern Utah. RS: Was Bertha Eccles’ home anything for the college? LD: At a later date, the Bertha Eccles’ home came in. There were some girls living there and then there was an older woman in residence. RS: What was the dress of women at that time? LD: The dress of women’s fashion was very modest. The skirts ranged from mid-calf to the knee but never above the knee. RS: Were the brightly colored? LD: Oh yes. We had everything. Colors were very exciting at that time. RS: It’s interesting because you see so many girls wearing the long skirts now. LD: As far as ankle-length skirts were concerned, these were seldom worn except to the formal dances. The formals were long and of course very beautiful. RS: Were there any special living regulations? LD: No, there seemed to be no necessity for living regulations at that time. At Weber College, there was seldom any smoking. It was very, very unusual if we found one of our students intoxicated. The students were very considerate, very thoughtful. They were well-mannered and well-behaved students. I couldn’t have asked for anything finer. RS: What were the girls’ activities? LD: We had many clubs at Weber College and later there were many more that were organized. They had their sponsors and their uniforms, same as they do now. At the 2 time I was at Weber, they sponsored the Pep Club. We were the first school in the area to organize a pep club. I was in charge of the Physical Education department. We had a girl by the name of Ida Stewart come in as my assistant and I transferred all of the activities to her—activities like the pep club and the marching band. It was called the Whip Club at that time. We had outstanding girls in the Whip Club at that time. RS: Are those considered kind of like sororities? LD: They were called clubs, but they had some of the earmarks, so to speak, of sororities. They would have their initiations and their pledges. RS: Was it like Excelsior? I’ve heard stories about Excelsior. LD: Yes. The Girl’s Association and the Men’s Association were organized while I was there. We had many firsts while I was there. We organized the Associated Women’s Students at the time. A little of the student government started at that time. When Weber Academy was transferred to the state, it became Weber College and then we could branch out and do many things that the Weber Academy couldn’t do. RS: Was it always the Weber Academy? LD: It started from the Church and it was called Weber Academy. The Church transferred Weber Academy to the state, I think that was 1933. I was there teaching in the Physical Ed department at that time. RS: Do you have your degree in education? LD: Yes, from Utah State and Berkeley. At that time, however, we did not have to have a certificate for teaching. I left Utah State in 1926 and an opportunity came for me to go to Ogden and teach at the Weber gymnasium. At that time, it was owned by the Church— 3 the Church did the Physical Ed program from the county. After the Weber Academy was transferred to the state, we still continued to do the Physical Ed at the gymnasium because Weber College didn’t have a gymnasium. RS: Was the gymnasium right in town? LD: We were directly connected, as far as the buildings, to Weber College. We considered it all part of the Weber campus. RS: They just tore it down. LD: Yes, they just tore down the old building. Then I taught the Theory and Practice of Plays and Games, or something of that kind. Laughter RS: Being that the girls commuted, were there any problems you had with that while you were Dean of Women? LD: No, we just didn’t have many problems. We had such good kids. I’m sure there were problems on the outside, just like today. RS: How long have you been Dean of Women at BYU? LD: I was appointed Dean of Women at BYU in 1968. RS: Before that, what had you been doing? LD: I left Weber College at the birth of one of our children. I decided to be a homemaker. Three children were born after that and I remained at home. I went on the Ogden City School Board. I was on the board for ten years and president of the board for two years. From that developed many interesting periods of education. I was president of the state school board at two different periods. At that time, the state school board numbered at 4 probably a hundred who would come and attend the school board meetings. They were held in Salt Lake at the Capitol in the office of the state superintendent. When I went on the board, I felt it was not a superintendent’s meeting, that t belonged to the school board. We decided then and there that we would develop school boards and not become a part of the superintendent situation. We moved our meetings from the capitol out to the different high schools. Have forty districts in the state of Utah, we should have had a representation of five school board members from each of the forty districts, which would raise our numbers tremendously. Today, the meetings of the state school boards number in four or five hundred. From the state school board I was nominated to the national school board. I was on the national school board for four years. We met very often in Atlantic City. Those meetings went from two or three hundred in number to four or five thousand today. RS: That didn’t take you away from your family quite so much. LD: Once a year I would go to the national school board meeting. I always made it a policy to try to get my schoolwork done while the children were in school so that I would be home after 3:30 in the afternoon. Very often I would have a meeting in the evening. Any visiting of schools or additional meetings we would try to have during the day. So I was not away from home often. RS: So you were concerned with the school board until you came to BYU. LD: Yes. I ran for my third term on the school board, but at the time, Dr. Petty was injured in an automobile accident and had to have surgery. I did not get out and campaign and felt that I could not win it on my own. I also felt that my responsibility was greater with him than with the school board. Then I went to work at the office with him for eleven years. 5 RS: That’s when you thought you might like to be a hygienist. LD: Yes. I went straight in to becoming a dental assistant and I am a certified dental assistant. It’s been very interesting. If I go in to do something, I want to go all the way. RS: What were some of the duties you assumed when you became Dean of Women at BYU? Were there many new things that confronted you? LD: Yes, there are many new things. University has changed drastically since the time that I went to school and the time when I was at Weber College. With the increased number, you can imagine a change from five hundred students to twenty-five thousand students. We have approximately eleven-thousand women on the campus. In the freshman and sophomore classes there are more women than men on the campus. In the junior class, senior class, and graduate area, there are more men. RS: Maybe because some women get married by then. LD: Not only that. Some of them get married and they come back to school later. But the major number of girls will marry and then go to work to support their husbands so their husbands can finish their junior, senior, and graduate years. This is one reason why we don’t have as many women students on the campus. RS: What are some of your main responsibilities besides helping with big problems when they finally come to you? LD: At BYU, the structure of the university is quite different. We have many areas on the campus where students can go for counseling and advisement. We have the Dean of Students area, we have the Counseling area, and we have over a hundred bishops on the campus. We have ten stakes and they’re in the process or organizing another stake 6 on the campus. Besides have over fifteen hundred faculty on the campus, with whom the students can talk. In addition to that, we have resident hall advisors, head residents, senior residents. All of these people are available to people on campus. The complex setup on campus makes it so we receive the more concentrated problems in our area. RS: You’re more concerned with residents in the dorms and things like that maybe rather than the student body? LD: No, with BYU structure, I have nothing to do with housing. Housing is a separate entity completely; they have their own manager. If we have a problem, we very often have a call from the head resident. If we have a special case or something of that kind, then we will come into the picture, but very often those are handled through head residents or counseling. Severe cases are sent directly to the disciplinary area. RS: I would guess that there wouldn’t be much discipline problems with the girls that come to BYU. LD: Well, there are. When you get a community of 25,000 together, you’re going to get your share of problems. We feel that many of our problems are minimized, but we still would say that we would have two or four percent who just plain do not want to conform to BYU standards or anyone’s standards. Yet they are there and we have to work with them. RS: BYU has quite high standards to get in. LD: All of the students who come to the Y, whether they are LDS students or non-LDS students, have to come in with a bishop’s recommendation. They also sign a Code of Student Conduct, which is supposed to indicate to them that they have now committed 7 themselves to BYU and BYU standards. Occasionally, when they get to campus, they come into something that touches them off and away they go. RS: Is there any women’s lib movement at BYU? LD: Not any at all. We don’t even have any programs specifically structured for BYU women, which I think is too bad. There are many campuses throughout the nation that have many very good programs specifically set up for women. In a way, this is good. I feel that we could have programs on campus to strengthen women in their role as a woman and as an LDS woman. We could also open this to men; there’s no need to make it available only for women because men and women are so closely associated. I think a man’s point of view on a woman’s problem is just as important as a woman’s point of view on a man’s problem. RS: Do you think that more women are coming to college now for a career so they can earn a livelihood themselves? LD: I wish I could say that but I think most women go to school in hopes of finding a husband. RS: Do you think women’s lib has a future? LD: If women’s lib has a future, with present leadership it could be to the detriment of women. But if women’s lib tried to increase woman’s role and tried to realize that not all women are not going to marry and there are going to be more women in the working world. If women’s lib, under good leadership, can be for the betterment of women— better working conditions and increase salaries and put women on the same basis as men financially, then I think women’s lib could be of value. But unless the leadership 8 changes, then women’s lib is going to be for the destruction of women rather than the good of women. RS: Do you see here on the campus where some of the girls are staying single a little bit longer to get their degree and working a little bit longer before getting married? LD: Yes, I think there definitely is a move in that area for girls to want to have a degree. However, women and girls are not going up the ladder very fast to get doctoral degrees or to specialize. There is a great need for leadership in these advanced areas. Women can go into nearly every field—they’re going into architecture, they’re going into engineering. They have traditionally gone into teaching, but not we are encouraged to get them into these other fields because the teaching field is so overloaded. RS: Do you think that after teaching, the next most popular major among women is home ec or child development? LD: I think next to teaching elementary and secondary education, the field goes into child development, home management, home ec, and all of these areas which would be of value to a woman in her home. The nursing field is a strong field for women. The field of dental hygiene is one of our strongest fields for women—it is of greatest demand and pays the most. If a woman can get a two year college degree, it’s much more valuable for her to do that and prepare herself to keep a home and be married rather than get married out of high school. I just don’t like the idea of getting married right out of high school. RS: It seems like there is as much of a challenge in a home as there would be to teaching, for example, college math. 9 LD: There’s more challenge in the home. If a girl will just realize the many, many areas that she should be informed about in the home. Diet, nutrition, sewing, recreation, education…any field you want to name is used in the home by the mother. More demand is made of the mother in the home than is made of the father because the mother spends much more time with the children than the father does. For that reason alone, a woman should be educated. A church leader—and I wish I could remember his name, but I can’t—he was a foremost church leader and he said, “If I were to choose between educating a man and woman, I would educate a woman because she is the barometer in the home and she is the one who does the major part of the teaching in the home.” Never underestimate the value of a mother in the home. RS: Thank you very much for your views on women’s lib and your experiences as Dean of Women. I appreciate your time. 10