Oral History Program Jack Card Interviewed by Mike Eldredge 27 February 1971 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Jack Card Interviewed by Mike Eldredge 27 February 1971 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Card, Jack, an oral history by Mike Eldredge, 27 February 1971, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Jack Card. The interview was conducted on February 27, 1971, by Mike Eldredge, at 1123 19th Street, Ogden, Utah. Card discusses law enforcement and his experience with 25th Street. ME: Ok...uh ...Let’s see, in, in what way did you first come to be involved in the situation on 25th street in Ogden and the problems that were arising there? JC: Uh...I became involved when I went to the sheriff's office with Mack Wade in uh. ME: It...Was this...this was an elected position? JC: Mack Wade was elected sheriff of this county...I was a friend of his and went to work for him. ME: Let’s see, uh....Was the reason he ran for office....Was this one of his campaign pledges or promises that he made during the campaign for sheriff? JC: Well, uh...quite frankly all he pledged was honest law enforcement. Uh....no situation in particular, every situation that needed dealing with. ME: Was he uh...aware of the situation before he went into office or did uh....he become more aware... JC: Well, to an extent he was, he...he actually became more aware of it after he was elected and into the office. And after him, we delved into different things, different things came out of it and that's the reasons for our actions. ME: Uh...can you relate some of the developments that made prostitution on 25th become such a booming business and what are some of the factors that were helping to sustain its operation as long as it lasted? 1 JC: Well, let me put it to you this way: The reason that prostitution among other things, flourished was that it was an organized syndicate. There were payoffs to elected officials. There was protection from the law. Now...uh....what was that one part of the question you asked? ME: Uh...What helped it uh...what sustained it as a booming business? JC: As I just said, uh...payoffs, political payoffs to elected officials. Protection from the law, which brings us up to how eventually we started to uh...enforce the law on 25th street. When uh...Mack Wade and his men had the county cleaned up, and by that I mean there was no, no organized crime. Minor things happened like they do anytime, and any place; but nothing organized, no payoffs. And uh... quite a few business people in the county, they came to the sheriff's office and says, "Now, uh...you've stopped uh...different things in the county from flourishing and, which is correct. We've got no objections to that, but, uh...now all the customers leave the county and come into the city. Gamble whatever intentions they may have all night long." Which was true. So that's when uh...Mack Wade uh....called me to his office and uh...this is how I became involved with it. Called me into his office now, he says "Well, uh...I think the best thing we can do now is uh...clean up 25th street. We sat down and discussed the pro and con as I realized, that was a big problem. And uh... right at first I didn't give him an answer that uh...I would go ahead and try it because I knew there a lot; there were a lot of political ramifications involved in this. ME: Are you allowed to indulge any of the leading political figures that were involved in these payoffs? JC: Did I what? ME: Are you allowed to indulge the names of these figures? JC: Uh...I wouldn't uh.......I imagine uh…some names are in this book, this thesis that this uh...fellow wrote here, which was just published recently. But uh....as to name individuals uh...there's no reason to do that now. This is long past; I'll certainly uh...name positions and people can piece two and two together. 2 ME: Do you recall any of the uh....major figures involved in the prostitution operation and how great their influence was on the entire situation? JC: Yes, I do. For example, uh...I'll start out with Eddie Dohgrty. ME: What was that last name? JC: Eddie Dohgrty. D-o-h-g-r-t-y. He's an ex-felon, served a good many years in prison in the Midwest. He came out here. And as the Underworld puts it, they had the city in the palm of their hand, which they did. Which brings me, after I eventually said to Mack Wade, if that's what he wanted, we'd try it. But uh...there's just one thing we'd have understood. When we started we wouldn't stop. Either we would win or uh...we would lose, but we wouldn't stop. And with that understanding we took off after the street. I had two or three different partners that would accompany me on most all of these raids. There had to be, uh...well, uh...it had to be quite secret…there was a lot of people in our office who really didn't know what we was doing, when we were doing it, and how. Uh ...I mentioned Eddie Dohgrty. The first night was on the street. As anybody in the town knew, it was wide open. You could walk down 25th street and anything you desired you could find: Prostitution, Narcotics, Gambling...wide open. Uh......Two other people, key figures in prostitution in this city, was Rose and Bill Davies. At the time we started on the street, they weren't married , but eventually to save themselves from uh...being put in jail, they did get married as did uh,....the majority of the people on that street in this business. For protection they went ahead and got married. Rose and Bill did get married. We walked in the Rose Rooms one night and it wasn't our intentions to make a great big scene out of it. We, uh....told the people involved on the other side of the building, the city police, we told the people involved that we'd give them so long to clean up 25th street and if they didn't do it, we would do it. And after a certain length of period nothing occurred so we started down the street. The very first night we went into the Rose Rooms which Bill and Rose Davies owned, and uh....at this very time the street was so open that there was nothing like locked doors, you just walked in, as we did. We walked in the Rose Rooms and there were 3 several girls there, in their trick clothes, ready for business. This will give you a good idea of how the city was run. We walked upstairs and eventually Rose Davies herself came out of her room which was at the front end of the building. I had two deputies with me. She asked me what we wanted, "What would you Like?" and I said to her, “I’m new at this business." And she had no idea we were law officers. I meant new at the business which was flourishing in that house. I said "Whatta ya got?" and "Anything ya want," so we both stood there for a while. I told the other two deputies no matter where you're at, no matter what room you're in, never know closed doors, keep everything open. She invited me into her room and I walked in she started to shut the door, and I grabbed it, kept it open a foot or so and she asked me, “what’s the matter?" I says, "I'm bashful." She says, "Well," and I said "well," and I said "Look, I'm not here to deceive you," and I had my badge in my hands at all times. I just said, "Take a look," and her words were "Jesus Christ, what do you want?" I said, “take a good look." And she read the badge and she said, "Oh, you're Mr. Card." And I said "You're right." I said, "We've just started on 25th street tonight and we might be back in five minutes; it might be days. But whenever we come back, whatever's a'goin' you're going to be arrested if you're violation the law." Her words were, "I just got through paying off, now what do you people want?" I told her, "You're not dealing with the city police, for when we come back at any time, if anything a'goin' you'll be arrested and booked. She sat there and described to me the amount she paid off which was $1600 to a particular person which was a standing joke among the law enforcement people, he was scared to take it in his hands so he took his police cap off and put it down. She dropped the $1600 in it. So anytime we'd want to keep this person in line I'd mention uh..."hat" which he knew what we meant. So, we left. A night or two later we went back down the street. The door was open. We walked right upstairs, and there were four girls there in their trick clothes, in the front room. So we told them, "Put your clothes on, you're coming with us." That was the beginning of booking of prostitutes on 25th street. And I might say we booked, oh, one or two hundred prostitutes before we ever started to get convictions. No matter, what we did it....did no matter how we did it; 4 there seemed to be a loop hole, obvious to us, but not to the people. One day the city judge, who's no longer alive, called me into his office and says quite frankly he was pleased with our intentions and he gave us some advice, what to do; which from that night on we did. Which was no matter where we'd book these prostitutes, they had them out in a matter of minutes. Bail.....very low, bail, $25 for most of the time. So the judge says, "The best way you can break this up now is whenever you do book 'em, hold 'em for the Board of Health," which naturally would inconvenience the people, the people we would pick up. So from that night on, uh...any raids we'd make we would take them up and book them and hold them for the Board of Health. And sometimes the county doctor was available within the hour, sometimes he wasn't. So it got to be where we'd hold them for a day or two and it made a big difference. Now we made so many raids and so many arrests and so many bookings that the bail, the bonds people had to pat up, finally started to pinch. So from that night on, we pretty well had prostitution in hand. Took us a long time to do it, but...uh...I think you had another question I read would sure fit into the next things that got us involved down that street again. I might answer this question right there if you'd like to get it on tape. ME: Uh....would, would you say that the Costa Nostra had any part of the Prostitution business in Ogden? JC: Not at that time there was nothing we ever uncovered. I might say, anything that we did pertaining to law on 25th street, in the city and county, Ogden and Weber, we worked mighty close with the F.B.I, those were the only people that uh...I’m speaking of organizations, that we actually trusted, worked with and cooperated with. ME: Ok, What were the major business establishments along 25th street that were popular among the customers and how many could be accommodated in each one? JC: Well, the main one's without question the Wyoming Rooms which Eddie Dohgrty run, also the Marlene Rooms and the Rose Rooms. Those were the problem ones. But there were many of them. But the same people had them all. For example, to sum up of how that business was, how profit, profitable it was, let me 5 give you an example. After we uh...started to hit the street pretty hard and kept continually picking up the people. One night I hit it kind of lucky. Well, matter of fact it was in the daytime. Uh...we walked into the Rose Rooms and walked into the kitchen and there were there was a book there, which I picked up. No reason at all, not expecting to find what I did. But it was the book kept by the Madame of the house which was Rose Davies. I'll give you an example of how profitable that business was. We took and totaled and itemized the uh...girls business transactions in that room for a period of six months. Sixteen girls were involved with these, with uh...Rose and Bill Davies. The sixth, uh....six months that we totaled it up, it averages $85 a night per girl. Some two or three hundred, some less. But the average was $85 a night over a period of six months. Now times that by sixteen which was the Rose and Bill Davies business, you've got an idea how much money was in that business. You got an idea why they'd like to protect it, and uh....keep that business going. $85 a girl averaged a night over a period of six months. I might add, this Rose Davies, I told them, her, uh....saying was in town as every S.B.'s got his price and she's going to find mine. And I might add right now this six years in the sheriff's office when all these problems were going on, I was offered big sums of money, motels, property, cars, and jewelry. I could put in right here, I......my wife found a package under our Christmas tree, couple inches square, wrapped in brown paper, no writing, no nothing. Thought I had a surprise for her, it turned out to be a big surprise. When we, after got to discussing what it was and I didn’t put it there, I opened it up. It was a perfect blue-white diamond, five karats. Matter of fact this diamond came from Chicago in a robbery there. So there first thing I did was uh....realizing what was going on, I wrote to an elected official, should have been on our side of the fence. And I told him if I, uh... if somebody's tried to give me something and I can't prove who they are, but I know who they are, what should I do about it? And his statement was "you're in trouble." So I called him a name or two and left his office and I found a proper place to....proper hands to put this in which I did, in case this frame up ever went or through. I gave it to a prominent lawyer in Nevada. Told him the whole story. 6 ME: What was the lawyer's name? JC: Uh, he has since died. Prominent lawyer in Nevada. This is just one way that these people have of taking care of anybody that gets in their way of business. If they can't bribe you they’ll frame you. And it's a matter of public record how they tried to frame me. All people have to do is go back into the Standard Examiner and read the front page. I was playing golf one day in this city police officer came up to the golf course and said that uh...he was uh...going to arrest me, I said "Whatever on your mind, go ahead and do it." Well, he said the judge wants to arrest me. I said to go ahead and do it. And for reasons known to us there wasn't much done there. I finished my golf game. I eventually went to the sheriff's office and some elected people in town at this particular time, and many times before, and many times later, told me I'd better join the crowd or fall in line, or they'd frame me, and put me in prison. This is the beginning of the harassment I was supposed to appear in Davis County, not even in the county I was a law officer. And it's a matter of public record, published in the Standard Examiner and in the court transcripts and I might add right now, nothing but complete and total lies in the court transcripts. Nothing like was said on the stand. Absolutely nothing. There were only two questions that I ever answered with more than one word. It was either "yes sir" or "no sir." They had a running story going there of everything that this particular judge asked me. ME: What date was this? JC: Oh, this was uh...well...the street more or less ran out of business in '52 so it was just before then. I can go back; the dates are in the paper. I could tell you, I've got a lot of those clippings in the classes I teach where I work now. I've got a lot of those clippings out there. I just haven't got them here with me; they're out to my office. But I was supposed and uh...the crux of this whole story where I was supposed was, "I understand that Bill Davies is going to kill Sheriff Hess and you told people this," Sheriff Hess was the sheriff of Davis County. You'll get the connection a little later on. And the judge uh, the district attorney and the assistant district attorney at this time were so scared, they couldn't even ask questions. The judge had to holler. At him, 7 "Well ask him his name, you at least ought to know that much!" We got all that established on the record then, when the judge said I had made all these statements, he asked me "Did you?" and I said "No, sir." It got down to "Have you ever told anybody at any time that Sheriff Hess was going to be killed by Bill Davies?" I said "No sir!" Simply because it wasn't true. I'd never heard it. I was asked a lot of different questions and when this session was finally over down there, the judge said "Now if I can get some people to back these statements •up, you're going to prison". That's how it ended. I came right back to this town, took two witnesses with me, went to an office of the person he said that had told this story to. And I said to this person "Where do you get off telling the judge (and I mentioned his name) that I ever told you that Bill Davies was going to kill Sheriff Hess?" This individual acted surprised gentlemanly, and went on, and said "Well, uh…Jack, I never told anybody that,” I said, "I want you to repeat that." He said," I have never told judge so and so or anybody else that. I said "Tell you what I'll do, I'll give you until the Standard Examiner comes out to have in the Standard I did or I didn't say these things." This person was upset. Arid I might add, just by reading the front page of the Standard Examiner, you can find you what he said. Which amounted to as "I never told anybody at any time Jack Card made this statement to me. It's absolutely not true," and signed his name. From that time on the person that said I made to this person, their clique started to crumble which is a long story in itself. ME: When would you say that prostitution was at its peak in Ogden how many people were involved at that time? JC: Well, at the time we were involved we was in the sheriff's office from '46 to '5^ and if it ever had a higher peak, it's just about impossible. Every building on the street, every con man in the know, every man in the clique was procuring for girls. And I might add that at any time at this time you could buy whatever you desired prostitution, narcotics, why, you could buy narcotics just as simple as buying a pack of cigarettes. 8 ME: Uh...going back to that one question I just got finished with, these uh...business establishments, or what the rooms you were talking about, do they still exist today? Are they standing on 25th street? JC: I'll put it to you this way, I haven't really paid a lot of attention but I've got a lot of friends that's in that business at the present time; I will say this, there's no reason to believe that for quite a few years now there has been any organized crime in this town. No reason at all. The usual things happen in any place in any city are no doubt going on, but...uh......nothing organized. ME: What I meant was uh...are the Rose Rooms. What building were they located in on 25th street! JC: The Rose Rooms are still there, the people aren’t. This lady was sentenced to the federal penitentiary. Her husband was sentenced to the penitentiary here. When he got out in Nevada, he's now in the state of Idaho. He served a lot of time. ME: Uh ...do you have any idea how much income prostitution as a whole netted in the City and what its effect on Ogden's economy was? JC: I'll put it to you this way, this one place I mentioned just by itself, a girl over a period of six months averaged $85 a night. I'm just speaking of one house, actually two houses. They had two houses. But, uh...the people in this business naturally there were others but nothing like these people. ME: Would this affect the economy of Ogden at all? JC: Well, quite frankly if people would check, the county clerk’s office, it might surprise a lot of people to know who really owned these buildings where this business transpired. Which I wouldn't care to discuss. But it's public record, if anybody ever got interested enough they could find out. Might shock people! ME: Uh, well, what prompted Ogden City to uh...get into this situation further? It was Weber County at first but uh… 9 JC: I might put right in here is uh...the sheriff's office originally cooperated with anybody. Until we found out we couldn't trust people and from that time on there was just no, no working together, period. We actually staged a fake raid or two, caught people in elected positions, and wearing badges tipping people off. And from that night on we never let them across the hall. The city police were on one side, we were on the other, and I'd like to say right now, that uh....we don’t infer that there were many police officers on the wrong side of the fence. Just a few. The average police officer that worked there had no idea what was going on. And if they did get to know something, they were soon put on a different beat and I could mention several prominent names there. Liked to cooperate with us, did, and uh...the first thing they know, they had different assignments. ME: Uh.....can you relate the plan of action that was taken to eliminate all of the prostitution in Ogden and what some of the problems and reactions were to the.....that developed in the process? JC: Well, like I say after we warned, told people on the street from this second on anything you do violating the law; you're going to be arrested. From that night on it involved.....these houses they had procurers, panders, pimps, better known as, and eventually as I told you they married the Madame of the house, three different prominent uh...ladies in this town. Uh…they eventually got married to keep themselves out of jail naturally uh....several years without a question of a doubt to break the back of this vice ring going in this town. Awful big business, especially to the people involved. A matter of fact, at one time these uh....two of these people I mentioned had over, had $106 thousand in currency in a safety deposit box in this town, which eventually ended up putting them in prison. One of the main reasons they finally got sentenced. A matter of fact one of these people backed and saved a prominent businessman in this town from going broke. And to stress that point they started to operate a number of games. Somebody in town brought one of the tickets into my office and in 30 minutes we had that stopped. I got the man I figured:' was responsible for it, which he was. I found out where the business was which was in a business house in this town right on the main street. He had 10 loaned this fella several thousand, quite a few thousand dollars, and one way of repayment was "we'll give you some protection for a numbers game." And they started to operate. That opened and closed the same day. ME: Uh...can you relate any particular incident that took place throughout the history of prostitution in Ogden, for the some 80 years that it was booming? Any rumors or anything like this up until the final stages of cleaning it out of 25th street? JC: Well, uh.....as you see, I've got here right in my hand, this was just recently published.....I might add, it took about 18 years to get the truth in this paper in the Salt Lake Tribune, and this young fellow who wrote his thesis on this subject is greatly responsible for it. But as you can see it's right and uh…that's a long time to get the truthout. I would, I would like to put in here right now, the sheriff was framed, which the citizens in this community read, they caught him in a house of prostitution, words to that effect. He happened to be deer hunting at the time. Sheriff came down to see how business at the office was going, cleaned up, changed his clothes, and all this transpired. Now the people read just certain things that were put in the paper. I'd like uh...the people to know, we had and have, the last time, I checked, recordings of elected officials and appointed official of this city describing to Rose Davies in the Rose Rooms on 25th street, with her husband in the closet and running the recorder with three people from the city police department, sitting on the couch, describing to Rose Davies how they got the "old man" meaning Mack Wade. We have those recordings. ME: Are those public documents or are they filed away? JC: No, no, we also have photo slate copies. We also have statements, which would bring up a question among a lot of people, "Well, if you have these things, why didn't you use them?" That question is easy to answer. You couldn't find people you could trust but we still have them. ME: You have them yourself, or… 11 JC: No, no, I don't have them myself, but the day Rose Davies went to prison is the day she put them in my hands. Where they are I wouldn't say, but they are available. Water under the bridge, but we still have them. We have a man saying, "We finally got the 'old man’." Rose Davies making sure it would come out clear on her recorder says, "What did you say?" She made him repeat it, and she says, "Who do you mean?" "You know who I mean." "Who do you mean?" They mentioned Mack Wade. Took some bad publicity for Mack. Not one grain of truth in it. But uh, anybody in this business or anybody in the know, it's tough to deal with organized crime. Mighty tough. Very few people are on the side of the law where there's commercialized vice. ME: What were some of your experiences that you remember most of all during your work? JC: Let me tell you one I remember most of all. I'm glad you asked that question. This uh....one person, I'll mention his name, Eddie Dohgrty, he in the town. We were down the street after we told the people that the next time we'd come, and we told Rose Davies "pass the word everybody in this town you know, everybody on the street you know, pass the word. Next time we step on the street there's going to be arrests." It was, It wasn't even dark the place known as "Lucky's" uh..... "Lucky's" that was the name of it. Right there on 25th street. Three of us were walking down the street. Nothing in uh....nothing in our minds, we were just looking, and we walked by this side door of Lucky's and it was ajar half a foot. Let me tell you what happened from then on. We uh.....I kicked the door open with my foot and we walked on in. And there inside of "Lucky's" in the back room was where we were. We didn't come in from the front way. Crap tables, 21 tables, Poker tables. Prostitutes, Whiskey, Bar, and to give you an idea of how they had the town served up We arrested these people on seven counts, seven counts, for the things I just mentioned, and as you can realize many of these are felonies0 The next morning somebody called me into their office, or came into our office and said "I'd like to talk with ya." Well, uh.....Max and me, we assumed that uh...he was more or less going to congratulate us for arresting the people we did, which the main one was Eddie Dohgrty. I'll show you the 12 kind of thanks and gratitude we got, I was told in plain English if I ever did. That again which was step my foot on 25th street, I'd be taken care of. This as an elected official I was talking to. I ushered him out of my office and from that night on we each went our own way. ME: Uh...You mentioned that you had to clean up Ogden City and some of these elected officials. How did you go about doing that? Did you just bring out information about them...? JC: Well, yes, yes, uh....for examples the Porters and Waiters Club. This suite was started and it was never completed. The sheriff and I and Bert Strand a Standard Examiner reporter were going sued for a hindered and some thousand dollars for an article put in the paper. Such as what....whom....what name was the Porters and Waiters Club in? Which I wouldn't care to elaborate on. It's public record. When that came out in the paper, people were shook and shocked I guess. You might say we padlocked this place of business. You might say we....just before we left office, I might say we padlocked several places of business. Gambling places, Labor Temple, Rose Rooms, The Wyoming Rooms, the Marlene Rooms, all these places were padlocked, just before we left office. ME: How effective would you say then was the cleanup that you made on 25th street? How long did it last after you...Did this start the ball rolling? JC: Uh, well, after we did all these things, I might add here the sheriff was defeated in his election. That's gratitude..... ME: Did he serve just one term? JC: The sheriff served two terms, and I might add they never had a more honest sheriff. There's no question about that. And uh...his thanks was defeat at the polls, which was a blessing. That's a tough job. I might add the judge that was involved in this controversy was also defeated at the polls. When we started to crumble this organized crime and vice in this city, I was offered a good paying job to resign, one of the good paying 13 jobs in this state, which I did not accept. Like I said when we started, win or lose, and it's a matter of record, we won, the Standard Examiner a few weeks ago published in the paper and pretty well summed it up. ME: Uh, you mentioned uh, Anabelle Weeks… JC: Anabelle Weekley. ME: Weekley? JC: Was her name ...yes. ME: What was her story in connection with this? JC: Well, she, she finally married Billy Weekley. And Mr. Weekley owned the Porters and Waiters Club. He was a Negro gentleman, and he was a gentleman. He had good intentions, but uh...shortly thereafter, it's a long story in itself what happened to Billy Weekley and the Porter's and Waiters Club, who owned it, why, and how? I might add here we made a raid there one night and arrested this place Anabelle Weekley was, she was running this place. We got pictures put in the Standard Examiner. Confessions, which this particular raid was one of the....one of our best strokes of luck. The people concerned willingly and gladly gave the statements as to how long they'd been operating games in this establishment. How much money they averaged weekly, who they gave their money to, how they paid off, where it went. We got it all in writing and to the present day, we still got all these things in writing. ME: Were these published in the newspaper? JC: Never, never. ME: Can you think of anything else that you feel is real important that you'd like to add to that before we end on this? 14 JC: Well, one thing, uh... one thing, it's impossible for crime, vice, organized crime to exist without people knowing about it. Anytime you see it going to any extent, you have to assume one thing; if this continues, there's a payoff. No other reason in the world exists. No other reason exists, there's a payoff. You see, anytime it flourishes, in any community, and in our community it flourished a long, long time. I had the privilege of working with a lot of elected officials down there...no question about it. The people. We had trouble with, it was in the paper daily, and it wasn't hard for people to diagnose. ME: What was the credibility of the paper this time...did they…? JC: I'm glad you brought that up. Bert Strand happened to be the reporter for the Standard Examiner and like I say we didn't need many a deputies didn't need to know what we were doing when and how. I'm not inferring that you didn't trust me or anything...uh...there's a less chancers we could take for information leaking out...that's the way we'd go. And Bert Strand accompanied us anytime he wanted to which was generally all the time...with advanced information, what we were doing. And Bert Strand knew the problems we were facing. Naturally, the Standard Examiner might have articles in the paper and uh...it depends where they got the information...how they sound. But I, we had no beef with uh...about the articles that were written. There were a lot of articles were far from the truth and you expect both ways, and we got it. But we uh...had no complaint when the Standard covered us, this Bert Strand was sis signed to our office. We trusted him completely, and he wrote the articles fairly...no question. ME: Uh....this information that you uh...have complied, all these confessions, and uh, figures and facts during this that you have put away do you ever intend to, you know, leave this onto posterity, say to leave it in a library or somewhere like this...or it could be kept safely under a seal for a hundred years or something like this? So is there any possibility that you would ever leave something like, like that because the reason....uh...the reason I bring this out if say from a hundred years from now, people look back on this time in history...the facts and 15 figures that you've indicated that you have would be considered priceless as far as historians go. I was just wondering...is there any possibility that you would ever leave this on? JC: Well, our intentions never were to hurt an individual...just to enforce the law, honestly, I might add we could actually put quite a few people in prison, I mean elected officials, and I mean, by pushing. And one of the best ways to push is exactly right here talking. We just about did it several times make these recordings, in particular, of the sheriff from 25th street, public record, affidavits, statements we've got, public records, who accepted the payoff, how they got it and from whom! But uh… ME: What I really meant is by leaving it in the archives they wouldn't necessarily be a public record because when you do leave information, the tape itself that we're using now, has to be signed and cleared for it to be taken out. JC: I'll put it to you this way. I don't have these...like I say, I could get them. They were put in my hands when we originally got them, and the Sheriff was the sheriff; and the sheriff run the sheriff's office. He was one hundred per cent honest. Whatever he might choose to do was certainly his business. That's the best way I can sum up the future of what we might have. ME: Well, that sounds like a pretty good place to end. Do you have anything else you want to add? JC: Well, I think that citizens as a whole should pay more attention to what's going on. I think they should forget politics and delve in facts alone. It's hard to get people to do that. It seems like they take sides, that's the way it goes. But any time vice and crime flourishes, as I told you before, there's no question, it's organized, there’s a payoff. This city is a much different city than it was 10....15 years ago, no question. Got a lot of officers do good jobs...you got a lot that don’t. Citizens just cotta find out who the good ones are and stick with them. I'd like to say once more, they had an honest sheriff in Mack Wade. He had a long rough row to hoe, came out in the end. "Pooch.” That's my grandkids that just walked in. There's a lot more to it, but what we've 16 discussed here is a beginning. You see, what peoples got to realize is, anybody in an elected position or an appointed position has got a chance to make a lot of money. I'll name them to you: jewelry, cars, property, motels, cash, lots. I've had them all thrown at me. I might add I never got a stick of gum. For which I'm thankful. I sleep good at nights. In closing, there are certain types of people in this community that have seen, read, heard any facts I might add! They exist. It's no fabrication. 17