Oral History Program Bettye B. Gillespie Interviewed by Forrest C. Crawford 22 January 2014 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Bettye B. Gillespie Interviewed by Forrest C. Crawford 22 January 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The New Zion Community Advocates worked with community members age 80 years and older to have contributed to the history of Ogden city. The interviews looked at the legacy of the interviewees through armed services, work, social life, church, NAACP and educational systems in an environment where their culture was not predominant. This program has received funding from the Utah Humanities Council and the Utah Division of State history. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Gillespie, Bettye B., an oral history by Forrest C. Crawford, 22 January 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Bettye Gillespie, photo taken at her home on January 22, 2014 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Bettye B. Gillespie conducted on January 22, 2014 by Forrest C. Crawford. FC: What we’re doing, Bettye, is this. I’ve got a series of questions that I’ll go through. Some of them will be follow-up questions. Feel comfortable to respond to these questions on whatever level you want. The whole objective is not just to capture all of your NAACP activist work, but to really catch a broader, deeper picture of who you are, your work and legacy in the community. So, that’s my goal and it might take a little more than an hour. What we’re trying to do is work through these questions, some of which might overlap a little, but we’ll see how it goes. The point is that you answer whatever you feel comfortable answering. BG: O.K. FC: I think we’re ready to get going – more on your life. The good thing about it, Bettye, is that in the past, Weber State has not had these kinds of histories on the local African American community members and we’re really pushing to make sure we have some of that kind of history reflected in our Special Collections. I think I might have mentioned to you that we did Joe McQueen. Funny, he had different experiences than you relative to 25th Street. But then he was a jazz saxophone player. He doesn’t mind telling you that he’s 94 years old. BG: I remember Joe McQueen. I haven’t seen him for years, but I’ve seen articles about him in the newspaper. As I recall the path of lower 25th Street ended (and still does) as it intercepted Wall Avenue on approach to Ogden’s Union Station. The Davis Hotel and 1 Restaurant near the corner of 25th Street and Wall Avenue was owned by a gracious, widowed, “Negro” woman. I believe Mrs. Davis operated both of those facilities. As a child, I had no reason, nor was allowed to go anywhere on lower 25th Street. Billy Weakley, husband of Annabelle Weakley, owned the Porters and Waiters Club on lower 25th Street which was primarily patronized by the Black employees of the Union Pacific Railroad. My family’s home was on Lincoln Avenue near 28th Street across the street from the St. Anne’s Center. FC: O.K. Let’s get started. My name is Dr. Forrest Crawford. I’m a professor at Weber State University and I’m here on this day, January 22, 2014 in the home of Bettye Gillespie to do an oral interview for the purpose of preserving for posterity the life and legacy of Bettye Gillespie. This is part of a variety of ongoing projects where Weber State University for many years has attempted to preserve the history of many of its patriarchs and matriarchs, and we want to make sure that Weber State does a good job of not only selecting those voices, but also making sure that those voices are representative of our diverse community, including the African American community. To that end, I am here to try to explore some questions with Bettye, and as a result, we will try to get a much wider and deeper picture of who she is, the work she has done, and the life she lives. And I might also say as a sideline, that Bettye’s husband, Jim, who is no longer living, was president of the Ogden Branch of the NAACP for 33 years. FC: Those two individuals were my personal mentors when I came to this community as a student-transfer from Oklahoma to play football at Weber State. So, they were two of the first people I met when I arrived in Utah. So, it’s really an honor for me to be here and it’s almost like a full circle kind of experience for me and, I’m very excited about it 2 Thank you, Bettye, for giving us the privilege of filming you and, in particular, allowing me to explore these questions with you. FC: The first question is “Tell me you name.” (I already know your name). What are you doing these days, what are you doing now? BG: Well, I can’t say I’m doing a lot. I have done some work at Weber State and the Black Scholars United gave me a nice award and scarf; and I spoke on the occasion of a memorial honoring the life and times of Rosa Parks. I also received an award from the Weber State Alumni Association for community service. I remember when Weber State moved from 25th Street to the campus where it is now located. There were just a few buildings. The ones I remember were the Union Building and the Browning Center and the classrooms. FC: This is interesting. You earned a B.A. from the University of Utah in Political Science, and M.A. degree in Human Resource Management and received a Merit of Honor award from the Alumni Association from the University of Utah. You served two terms on the University of Utah, Board of Trustees. Since a lot of your work and legacy have been at the University of Utah, you have also been engaged in a number of activities in the Ogden area. So, the question I have is what important lessons have you learned in life to date, and if you had 25 youths sitting in front of you, what couple of things would you say are most important that they should know about. BG: My mother was from Dallas, TX and my father was from Ft. Worth, TX. When they married, they moved to Ft. Worth where the Berliner family lived. Berliner is my maiden name. A friend of my Dad’s, who lived in Ogden, while visiting Ft. Worth told my Dad of the many jobs available out here, how pretty the mountains were, how nice the people 3 were and talked him into moving out here. I had heard of Utah, but I had never heard of Ogden and thought we were moving to Oregon. The first school I went to was Central Jr. High. I was 13 years old. As I recall, there were only two Black boys and I was the only Black girl attending Central at that time. I remember going to a little store across the street from Central - 25th and Monroe. The store owner and the two Black boys had some kind of incident and the store owner would not serve me and I could not understand why. I immediately went to the school principal and told him that the owner would not serve me because of some problems he’d had with the two Black boys. My principal, an imposing man, grabbed me by the arm, took me over to the store and asked “Why is it that you’re not serving her because of something somebody else did?” The man explained what it was that the boys had done. The principal said that he would not allow any of the Central kids to shop at that store. Since that store sold candy, ice cream and that sort of thing he said, “Oh, no, no, no, I’ll serve her, I’ll serve her.” As you can see I am little, always have been. He served me. This was one of the first things that happened to me after we moved from Texas. I didn’t expect it. That fall, I went to Ogden High School, still only 13 years old. I turned 14 that December. One of the first things I learned was to “Hang in there.” My friends were the Kinseys, Velma and Shirley. Did you know the Kinseys? FC: I remember the name. BG: Ogden High School has a large population and I believe there were about nine Black kids in attendance, five girls and four boys. I was in Ogden High’s most prominent class at that time. My classmates became doctors, lawyers, dentists, business owners, 4 college professors, and one congressman. Since I was only 15 years old, I was the youngest graduate at that time – that was my “Claim to Fame.” FC: Do you have an opportunity to go to any of the class reunions and that kind of thing? BG: Before my husband died, we went to all the class reunions. We quit going after my husband became ill. FC: That’s interesting. Bettye, when you think of Ogden and all the time you’ve lived here, how has Ogden changed over the years? What are some of the things that stand out in your mind that convince you that Ogden is really evolving into a different place now? Share with us how Ogden has changed over the years. BG: When Marshall White was alive, I was a part of the Youth NAACP. We had many problems. Blacks were not allowed to swim in Ogden’s public parks swimming pools. Some restaurants would not serve Blacks, nor would lunch counters, places of entertainment and some hotels. We went to the Ogden City Council meeting about Lorin Farr Park’s swimming pool and some council members denied discrimination. As a result, I went home to get my swimming suit. NAACP members said I could not go out there by myself. They assigned Marion Carter and Frank Satterwhite to go with me. We were all denied. The press became involved and the incident appeared in the newspaper. Guess who said we could come and swim in their swimming pool? Weber State. FC: I remember reading about that. BG: Weber State was still on 25th Street. 5 FC: Interesting. Beautiful. You know, as you were talking about that, I remembered that in a previous interview you did with Weber State you had a chance to talk a little about the time when you and Jim moved into your home in Riverdale and there were some incidents there. Can you speak briefly on that? It had something to with someone who had thrown tar on your home. BG: We bought a home in the upper part of Riverdale, on the ledge, just a block or so away from Washington Terrace. We were just driving around and I saw a house for sale that I liked. We bought the home. Before we moved in, someone threw a bucket of tar through a large window. It caused quite a stir. The FBI, local law enforcement officers, the news media, became involved. Marshall White, President of the Ogden NAACP, was still living. My husband was the First Vice President. Since we had not moved in, we did not lose anything. But some of the neighbors decided to clean up the glass from the broken window and the tar. An elderly woman brought her grandson over, a Hispanic family from nearby Washington Terrace came. The man was a carpenter and he knew how to do a number of things. He did whatever needed to be done. The Laymen’s League from Ogden’s Congregational Church came out and encircled the block, joined by the Washington Terrace Methodist Church and the Young Democrats. Ogden’s Episcopal Church did not have a priest at that time, but the Vicar came. A number of other individuals came, including one who sat on our porch with a rifle. We had two small children. The Stake President of the area’s Mormon wards assigned his two big sons to “look out for the little Gillespie girls.” Our house was on a corner with a very large yard and lots of playground equipment. We became everybody’s best friend. Guess who moved across the street from us? 6 FC: The Rod Julander Family. BG: Rod was a Political Science professor at Weber State. I was a Political Science student at the University of Utah. We became good friends and solved all the world’s problems almost “every day.” FC: As you became more and more familiar with the greater Ogden area, who were the most outstanding characters of that time? Were there any large personalities that stood out in the community? BG: Marshall White. He was an Ogden Police Officer. He may have been the only Black policeman in the state of Utah. It was not long after we moved into Riverdale, Marshall White was shot and killed in the line of duty. My husband, Jim, became president of the Ogden Branch of NAACP. FC: Were there leaders among the non-minority who often times found themselves in collaboration and partnership with the minority community? BG: Yes. One of our lawyers was Attorney Ira, who was our consultant. Jim Kirkham was with us for 40 years and passed away just a few months ago. FC: What was life like for you? I know we talked about it a little bit, but did you feel like you had a fulfilling childhood? Did you have a nickname? BG: I was an only child. I had one white and one Japanese best friend in addition to the Kinseys, and lots of boyfriends. My mother was very protective and strict and she didn’t know about my boyfriends. My other best friends were Hazel Johnson McEwen, who passed away last year and Ruby Lewis Coppadge who lives in Dover, DE. I did not 7 have a nickname. In high school, I told my gym teacher that I wanted to be in the Pep Club and since I was qualified, I got in. There was a group of boys, all of whom wore green T-shirts who stood around in the hall, meddled and made snide remarks to me. One of them was running for student body president, 14 years old and five feet tall. I stood before my very large Pep Club and gave a speech on behalf of another boy who was a much better candidate, who not only won, but also became a U.S. Congressman. The green shirt boys always hung out in the hall not too far from the girl’s restroom. My gym teacher reported it to the principal. He put a stop to it. Would you believe that one of the boys ended up teaching law in one of Utah’s most prestigious Law Schools? Whenever we went to a class reunion, he would always immediately run up to my husband and say “Jim, please don’t let Bettye tell anyone I belonged to that green shirt gang in high school.” We ended up being friends. FC: Life places all kinds of twists and turns, it’s interesting. When and how did you meet Jim? BG: Well, it was quite a while. On “Game Day”, we wore our orange and black uniforms. They were so cute. At that time, I had long hair. Jimmy and his military group did not know many people here. So they would attend Ogden High’s basketball and football games. He saw me and wanted to know who the little girl with the long hair and the big eyes was. One of the students who knew me told him to “forget about it.” “Her mother is not going to let her go anywhere with you. Her mother is really strict.” After I graduated from high school, I went to Washington, D.C. where my Dad’s only sister lived. I attended Howard University for two years. My father was ill and I came home 8 from time to time. I can’t remember exactly when I met Jimmy, but as I recall long-time residents, Ray and Wilma Freeman introduced him to me. FC: You had three beautiful children, now all college graduates. They were actively involved in the community. They have come to be leaders in their own right and my suspicion is that this kind of shaping and influence really had an impact on their lives. The question that I have is, when you think about it in retrospect, all of them are now grown and out. How has being a parent changed you as an individual? Did it change you at all? BG: Well, it certainly influenced me. As with most mothers, I was involved in many things. I was secretary of the PTA, attended all kinds of activities and served on many committees. Our oldest daughter, Shauna, went to Sacred Heart Academy because she had no one to play with. She was only about four years old, but we told the nuns how smart she was. She knew her address and telephone number and would talk to anybody. (True) They let her in. When we took her over there, she immediately marched into the Priest’s dining area to help him eat his breakfast. Everywhere she went, she took over. FC: It holds true today, huh? BG: Shauna went to kindergarten and first grade in the Ogden School District. We discovered that her first grade teacher, Mrs. Piper, was also her pediatrician’s first grade teacher. When we moved to Riverdale, we had only two children, Shauna and Deon. Kendall arrived two years later. They attended school in the Weber County School 9 District. They were well behaved, honor roll students with warm personalities and far too many friends. They participated in both the school choir and orchestra – Shauna, soprano and first violin, Deon – alto and viola. Kendall was every teacher’s dream – honor roll, sweet personality, too many friends, Pep Club and toyed with the clarinet and ukulele. Teachers sent her post cards from their vacation sites. For their good grades and behavior, they were rewarded with a little black Scottish terrier, “Raven”, who was a member of our family for 14 years. Shauna graduated from the University of Utah in three years and taught Head Start. She is currently a Conservator Investigator for the California Superior Court in San Francisco, CA. To our surprise, Deon received scholarship offers from MIT and Georgia Tech (high math scores). She chose to go the University of Utah, majored in Broadcast Journalism, worked for KTVX and KSL for a short period of time and KUSA in Denver, CO. She is currently a writer for the Daniels College of Business at the University of Denver. After graduation, Kendall decided to go to Weber State University where she majored in Fashion Merchandising. She worked in the Ogden City Mall until she moved to California. She is currently a beauty consultant, promoter and distributor for Mary Kaye Cosmetics. Since their dad was still president of the NAACP, Ogden Branch, we took them to both Regional and National NAACP conventions. Deon and Shauna served on the National NAACP Youth Board and had an opportunity to attend meetings in New York City, NY. They both rode the subway despite my counsel and to my dismay. 10 FC: I think it’s that fighting spirit that really, as a result of the way that you raised them was really a part of their upbringing, as they were growing up and in a lot of ways they couldn’t help but to be the type of people that they are today, you know, so and I think that’s wonderful and really a tribute to, you know, the very solid grounding that you gave them as parents. What about you? Let’s see. You worked as Director of Equal Employment Opportunity at Hill Air Force Base. Is that right? BG: Yes. FC: For how long? BG: Twenty years. FC: For twenty years? For that long? BG: Yes. When the air force did some realignments, I received a collateral job of staffing for selective organizations. Not to worry, I received an additional staff of people who were already organized and trained. I remained the only Equal Opportunity Officer at Hill Air Force Base and the only woman Equal Opportunity Officer in the Air Force Logistic Command, our headquarters. The air force bases in our Command were located at Oklahoma City, OK; San Antonio, TX; Macon, GA; Sacramento, CA and San Bernardino, CA. We lost San Bernardino and some of our smaller bases to reorganizations. FC: I can recall in my early involvement in the NAACP, the presence of a lot of military men and women who were members of the NAACP here. I think it was because of the link between EEO, Hill Air Force Base and the Ogden Branch of NAACP and how Jim and others outreached to military personnel to become a part of the Ogden community and 11 so it makes sense to me now as I look at the bigger picture. It’s wonderful that you and Jim were right in the middle of all that and helped make the NAACP the organization it is today. BG: My husband was the Equal Employment Opportunity Officer at the Defense Depot Ogden (Army). FC: Defense Depot, I remember that. BG: They had 1,400 civilians at that installation and we have 16,000 at Hill. His major job, his EEO job and his collateral job as Blood Drive Coordinator for the American Red Cross kept him plenty busy. FC: Wow! That’s amazing. BG: The Social Action Office and The Judge Advocate Office had the responsibility of assuring equality among military personnel. Occasionally, a military wife would come to my office. FC: When you think about your life, when you think about your legacy, what would you say was the proudest of your life? BG: There were so many proud moments. When my children graduated from high school and college. When my EEO Office was declared the most distinguished office in the U.S. Air Force and many more - The Martin Luther King Commission, the University of Utah-Board of Trustees, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and many others. FC: There was a woman’s organization you were involved, I am trying to remember the name. 12 BG: I was involved in many women’s organizations – Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, YCC (formerly YWCA) and League of Women Voters. I don’t know where I got the energy from, but I also taught Sunday school, third grade. I recently saw one of my third graders who is now 6’4”. I also served on the Utah Merit Council (Civil Service Board), the National Endowment for the Humanities, Utah’s Comprehensive Health Board, the Federal Executive Association, not all at the same time. I was president of the Ogden Alumnae Chapter of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority for two terms and Director of the Youth NAACP. I also served one term as president of the Habitat for Humanity (local). FC: Teacher, counselor, trainer, mother, oh, you name it, as you say, and you’ve kind of done it all. It makes me think because over the years, you’ve had a significant number of awards and accolades bestowed upon you. As you said earlier, Weber State just acknowledged you with an award through its Alumni Association and there have been many other awards. Would you care to share some of those awards that you have received over the years? BG: Yes, if I can remember. I received the YCC award, the Juneteenth Legacy of Freedom Award, Utah State Martin Luther King, Jr. Award, Minority Bar association, Habitat for Humanity, Delta Sigma Theta Women Make a Difference statue, NAACP Rosa Parks Award, University of Utah Merit of Honor award and a Mother and Child Wall Plaque constructed and presented by a talented co-worker. FC: It’s truly amazing. As we conclude this, are there other thoughts you would like to share? I recall that you were in Washington D.C. during the signing of the Civil Rights Bill of 1964. 13 BG: We were at an NAACP Convention when an NAACP lawyer interrupted the session to announce that the Civil Rights Bill had passed and been signed. On a lighter note, the NAACP held a convention in Jackson, MS. George Romney, Governor of Michigan and Mitt’s father was the only governor in the nation to come. We knew him from his many visits here in Utah. As we approached the Convention Center, his limousine pulled up. There were hugs, kisses and even a few tears as he explained to the Detroit delegation, “These are my friends from Utah.” My husband, Jimmy, was from Oktibbeha County, Starkville, MS. He was one of 14 children, five girls and nine boys. His youngest brother was killed in a one car rollover in the only car in that town. Jimmy took us to the place where his family’s farm was located. Their saw mill, sawdust, woodchips were still there. They also had a country store – long gone and a small burial area. He said that there was no noise pollution in that town and folks chopping wood could be heard miles away. FC: That’s a great story, Bettye. I appreciate the time you have given me to interview you. I think that your legacy clearly outlines that the importance of family, the importance of faith, the importance of education and the importance of being involved in the community and activism. But I also think that it’s a legacy of perseverance and having dignity throughout that perseverance and I think that’s why you are a living legacy today. It is that you are a testament, really, to that living legacy, and I’m just hoping that I can shape my life to be at least a little bit the way that you’ve shaped yours. 14