Oral History Program Norma Champneys Love Interviewed by Charles Trentelman 20 November 2013 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Norma Champneys Love Interviewed by Charles Trentelman 20 November 2013 Copyright © 2013 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Business at the Crossroads - Ogden City is a project to collect oral histories related to changes in the Ogden business district since World War II. From the 1870s to World War II, Ogden was a major railroad town, with nine rail systems. With both east-west and north-south rail lines, business and commercial house flourished as Ogden became a shipping and commerce hub. After World War II, the railroad business declined. Some government agencies and business related to the defense industry continued to gravitate to Ogden after the war—including the Internal Revenue Regional Center, the Marquardt Corporation, Boeing Corporation, Volvo-White Truck Corporation, Morton-Thiokol, and several other small operations. However, the economy became more service oriented, with small businesses developing that appealed to changing demographics, including the growing Hispanic population. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Love, Norma Champneys, an oral history by Charles Trentelman, 20 November 2013, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Weldon Champneys Grandfather of Norma Love Ogden Police Officers, 1936 Including Weldon Champneys Weldon Champneys, 1940 Grandfather of Norma Love Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Norma Champneys Love, conducted November 20, 2013 by Charles Trentelman. Love discusses her family’s history—specifically the experiences of her grandfather, who was a police officer—and her memories of 25th Street in Ogden, Utah. CT: Tell me your name again? NL: My name is Norma Love. Just Norma Champneys Love CT: Norma Love, and we’re talking about your grandfather whose name was? NL: Weldon Sibley Champneys CT: Spell that? NL: C-H-A-M-P-N-E-Y-S CT: Get this out of the way and pull up a chair, let’s talk. NL: Nobody is going to be able to understand, they’ve all told me that. I’m going to tell you a little bit about the time line of Weldon Sibley Champneys. In 1889, he was born in Ogden. His father was a convert the LDS church from London England, came from and impressive family. So impressive that there is a spa in England that princess in Diana has attended and the flowers out front are that Champneys roses, so pretty impressive background. Thomas, Grandpas’ father, was pretty engrossed in keeping family busy, He brought several children from England and they went up to Canada. They changed the name from Champneys to Champney and they’ve got a pretty good collection of people up in Canada, Clarkston and Alberta. In 1913 Grandpa Weldon Sibley helped construct the Eccles building. He was a hod carrier in 1914; he helped construct 1 the Eccles garage on June 9th, 1914. So, we understand the story. Grandpa was in there doing cement work with several other people, and it was to build a garage for the Eccles family, and someone was anxious to take the forms down. So grandpa went in with the other men and took down the forms and the cement collapsed. It broke grandpa’s back. CT: So it was kind of an arch…..Where was that garage? NL: You know what; I wish I could tell you. I don’t know. I have a sister that bathes herself in genealogy and I’m not sure we know that. But I think there is a newspaper article about it. Alright? CT: Oh, okay. NL: This is just a skeletal outline, I’ll show you pictures and tell you stories later, if that okay with you? CT: I’ve got all afternoon. NL: Alright. Oh, in 1914 he married Sarah Dinsdale, Sarah Myrtle Dinsdale. Her family owned what Robert Roberts’s claims was called Hell’s Little Myo or something like that. And in one of the books by Robert Roberts, who lives just down the street, he refers to that in one of his books. CT: Where was that? NL: Lower 17th. Jeffery Dinsdale came over from England by way of Louisiana by boat, came to Ogden, bought 152 acres with cash on lower 17th Street, we don’t know where for sure where it is, and there is and irrigation ditch named after Dinsdale because Jeffery Dinsdale helped to dig it. So we don’t know if some of his property, we haven’t looked into that, some of his property comes up by 2 Lauren Far Park because the ditch goes out of the Ogden river, ---. Anyways Sarah Myrtle Dinsdale and her sister Alice Dinsdale lived on the farm on lower 17th. Alice Dinsdale married Lu Keller, the Keller for the beef. And grandma met grandpa at a dance at the Marriot church house on lower 12th Street that has been demolished. They were married CT: And grandma was Sarah or Alice? NL: She was Sarah Myrtle. Grandpa in 1915 caught a robber in his house. And I don’t know if this is something that licked his lips about becoming a policeman, I don’t know for sure. I’m going to go back to some of grandpa’s childhood experiences late. Grandpa helped build the paramount theater in 1915, he helped build the Berthanna in May 1915, and he joined the Ogden police force in 1922. He left the police force because they wouldn’t allow him to go someplace else for short term, for more pay, and then come back. They wouldn’t hold his spot. That’s okay. Grandpa then just went on to the railroad. He worked for the railroad company in 1928, 1929 he was a pipe fitter staying with the railroad and then in1935 he was a Chauffeur for the Police Department. His job was chauffeuring the detectives around and this is when, in 1935, he was the chauffeur for the Quickly Murder and I tell you that story a little bit later. In 1938 or from 1935 until 1940 he did police work. In 1940 he was a desk sergeant for the police department. And in 1941 he became a detective. That lasted until, possibly 1948, were he helped at a distribution depot. In 1953 no occupation was listed so we don’t know when for sure he withdrew from the 3 police department. Grandma died in 1954. In 1955, grandpa moved in with us. And then, in 1960 he passed away, so skeletal outline. CT: When you say he worked at a depot that would probably have been the Defense Depot of Ogden. NL: Right, it just says distributing depot UGDD distributing depot, mechanic helper, in 1952, UGDD, Utah government defense depot. He was an employee then in 1952. In 1953 he must have retired because there’s no listing in him of an occupation at that time in the Utah city directory. Alright, early life. Grandpa’s father was an accountant in England. Came here, we don’t know why he left his wife back in England, she was in a mental institute, we don’t know anything about her, no death record. When he got to Ogden however, eventually her had several wives. They would die and then he’d remarry. He was older and married younger women. Grandpa’s mom was a very sweet woman. But she died in childbirth when grandpa was very young, and his father Thomas Champney remarried a woman who was German, Shellpey I think was her last name. Life became awful. Thomas Champney, according to family, lived on 27th and Jefferson. But not a big elegant home, but it was in a nice area. CT: That was a very nice area back then. NL: Yes, it just wasn’t one of the bigger, more elegant homes, and it’s gone by now. Thomas Champney’s wife, after grandpa’s mother, was very hard on grandpa. Family history talk about how grandpa could not please her, and grandpa had at least one other sister, Elizabeth Champneys, but grandpa was just a free spirit. 4 And so if he walked into the house with muddy shoes right after step mom cleaned, grandpa got a willow to his back, and he told us about that. One Christmas, not very long after his step brother Rulon Champneys, his step mom asked him to ask grandpa to rock the cradle. Grandpa got carried away and the baby fell out of the cradle. Well he had another beating, and he finally had so many that he just said this was the end of it. So he put a board in between the wheels of a train and ran away, ran to a relative up in Idaho, about froze to death. CT: On the trip up, oh so he was riding underneath? NL: Absolutely. Can you visualize that? CT: Well yeah, lot of guys did that during the depression in the 30s. In fact, the government even asked the railroads to let them. But it’s incredibly dangerous. NL: Absolutely, but he had had it. He’d had it. Another thing that happened to him in his early life there home was on 27th and Jefferson, but grandpa had made friends with the Eccles. Now this is a family story. He’d made friends with the Eccles family and one of the Eccles boys was a very dear friend to grandpa. I want you to know grandpa refers to all Weldon Sibley Champneys. Anyways, the boys would walk down to like where fort Buenaventura is, where the Ogden and Weber River meet. They swam, and my grandfather was a fantastic swimmer, even at an early age. My father said many times that grandpa should have been a fish. He just loved it. And he made sure that his four boys, my dad included, were tremendous swimmers. Life guards. [They were] well known, and one of the brothers were well known at Weber State. That was Floyd Champneys. CT: I think I’ve hear that name. 5 NL: Yeah, team captain, did great things. Grandpa and whichever Eccles boy, and I’m sorry I can’t tell you the name, really sorry. Grandpas oldest son, Weldon Champneys, his son told me this story. Grandpa is down, and its later spring and there's still a lot of spring runoff, and the boys are down at their favorite hole, swimming. But the Eccles boy loses his footing and his balance and falls into a swift current. These are probably preteen boys at this time. And I would say my guess, maybe 10-12 years old. So grandpa dives into the river and can only grab the Eccles boy, since their heads were shaved, by the ear. And he holds the ear and is able to drag the Eccles boy out. Well it ripped the boy’s ear and they meander back home. And of course there’s blood, and of course there’s dried blood by the time they get from the river back home. And the boys are walking in, and this is just the family story, and the mother of the Eccles boys sees this blood on her son and assumes something and slaps grandpa in the face and out casts him. So there’s insult and injury, so my uncle Weldon says, and that the oldest son of grandpa and he's says it’s around this time that grandpa is starting to think about running away. CT: Yes. NL: Fishing hunting, typical early 1900. CT: Late 1800 or early 1900, this place would have been a paradise. NL: Absolutely. And grandpa loved it. And when he came back from Idaho, oh by the way he had a marvelous Irish tenor voice, when he came back, we’re not exactly sure how this puzzle all fits, there not a lot of tell on it, just word of mouth. But, He took up boxing, and when I show you some pictures you’ll see how his nose 6 was a little flattened, and he started to travel with sort of a circus like entertainment troop and went back east and fought in the ring and got his nose smashed, and made somewhat of a name for himself. He loved to get up in front of people and from memory recite humorous stories, humorous reading. And he some pretty nice, pretty impressive activities and things. He’s down boxing. He’s out of the state. He’s gone for a while. He comes back and gets a job as a hod something or other and he learns the cement stuff. He’s not afraid of work. He’s not afraid of trying new things, and that very mentality he passed on to his four sons. They were tremendous young men. But that’s when grandpa was the hod carrier for these impressive buildings here in Ogden. CT: You know what a hod carrier is, don’t you? He’s the guy that caries the cement up, basically NL: Yeah, and grandpa was kind of barrel chested around, but he was a very strong man. Not active in the LDS church, though he’s a member. So one day he’s back from these activities with the circus and the boxing and he’s just kind of got time on his hand. So he goes to the Marriott church building and there he meets a lady that has got baby blue eyes, she’s got very prominent buck teeth, but she’s got a twinkle that’s devilish. She’s a good member of the church, she comes from the Dinsdales. And those two get started dancing, and that leads to romance and they eventually are married. CT: That twinkle, it will get you. 7 NL: Absolutely! She was not a beauty, but I'll tell you, when you see pictures of those men that they produce some very nice looking men. And I of course am bias; my father was the most handsome. CT: Of course. My grandchildren are the most beautiful in the world. I mean they’re cuter than yours, I'm sorry. It’s just the way it is. NL: You are so right, you are so right. So grandpa decided in 1922 to join the police force. And grandpa talked about listening to the detectives. He’s in the front seat driving these old cars, and he’s listening to the talk of the detective, and what it does is give him some wonderful basics because eventually he does become a detective. But he became a very good friend to the detectives that he took around. He had a pleasant personality. For a tough childhood, and for all the mischief that they claimed he got into, he really had a very interesting personality. So anyways, he left the force after being there, 1922 he joined the police forceand1926 he leaves the police force and goes to the railroad as a pipe fitter. CT: Do you know what beat he worked on in the police force before he was a patrolman? NL: He was mostly the detective driver, and I think that that’s when, I’m not sure, and I think that was mostly when he was the chauffeur. When he came back to the force it was in 1935. Oh I apologize, in 1935 is when he’s the chauffer, that when there was the quickly murder in 1935, W.S Champneys was the chauffer. The story we got, and I’m sorry, I’m very tender, I went to the library to get these 8 papers on grandpa and there’s his obituary on the top. He lived with us for 5 years and we grew to really love him. Anyway, grandpa and another policeman were on duty and Quickly was off work. He lived somewhere between 25 and 29th I think, and I’m not sure if it was on Monroe, but in that area, and its where grandpa was heading with whoever was his partner at the time. So they said, “Come on, we’ll take you home.” It’s at that time as they were driving that they spotted these guys syphoning gas so grandpa gunned the car to turn around and go back to the guys. Well that gave them time to jump into their car, quickly jumped out of the car and jumped on back of the getaway. Grandpa’s car stalled. It took grandpa, I mean it felt like eternity, but it took grandpa a little bit of time to start the car again and turn around. And grandpa said that they were heading towards where they guys were going, and turning a corner when they heard the shot. So anyway it was not a pleasant thing, not a pleasant memory CT: As I understand it, it was pioneer days and officer quickly was dressed in pioneer clothing or something. NL: Well he was off duty at the time. And grandpa and his partner, and I can’t tell you who it was though it’s probably in the newspaper, were just going on duty. So grandpa was given the chance to be a car officer, he had a car. Mayor Perry, should I say a name? CT: Sure. NL: Mayor Perry issued a scathing memo saying you will ticket everybody who rolls through a stop sign and that was the word. And grandpa got, that was put down, 9 this is from the mayor. So grandpas going around on his BEAT in his car and guess who he finds? He finds somebody rolling through a stop sign. In our day and age it just sounds so… well how many times do I role through stop signs? Now that I’ve confessed nobody can get me in jail for that right? CT: I do it too, yes. NL: Don’t read me my Miranda rights or something. But anyway, so grandpa stops the car and low and behold its Mayor Perry’s wife and grandpa ticketed her. End of car career. That is when he was put down on 25th Street. I think he went in at 10:00and got off at 7:00-ish. So it was a long night. CT: So 10pm to 7am, so he was working the lobster shift basically. NL: And I am so heartbroken that I don’t have a lot of verbal history of grandpa. CT: I’d kill to go back and talk to him. NL: You would not be the only one. CT: I’m sure. NL: These are the papers that I got from the standard. They’re very small print, I’m really sorry. I haven't gone through but every one of these sheets has got information. CT: A story about him? NL: With his name included. I asked if we could get dates 1914 to 1943 CT: I’m surprised they didn’t give you the option of putting this stuff on a CD. NL: Well I ran in, just quickly today. They have been just great and I can’t wait to read through this. 10 CT: Yeah, those guys are terrific. You can actually read these pretty well. Just get out your silver magnifying glass. NL: So I can’t tell you these stories right now. CT: No, no that’s alright. I'll probably go down and do the same thing myself. NL: Does this sound like it could be very interesting to anybody? CT: Oh absolutely, are you kidding me? I keep telling people, this is the type of history that nobody knows now. Because everybody says, “Oh I didn’t do anything famous. You know, I didn’t discover America or cure cancer. Who cares about my history?” You're the people who built this town. Eccles financed it, but you did the work. This guy walked the beak. NL: Yes, grandpa did. CT: And that’s why their stories need to be told. NL: And we’d love to tell them. There are so many things in here. I’ve got on my computer; I’ll take you in to see those. Grandpa, His BEAT was from, I think, 23rd to 25th I don’t know if he went clear over to 26, from Washington down to Lincoln, and maybe down to wall. And there’s a story of grandpa, it was in the paper, and I’ve got that down on my computer and you can kind of read it. The gentle man was on leave heading home, came to Ogden and had missed his connection. So he went to a hotel. He took his shoes off and just kind of got comfortable in the lobby. And while he was asleep somebody took his shoes and his wallet. So grandpa went and got him a pair of grandpa’s shoes and gave him ten dollars, enough to get him on his way. That is the life grandpa led. There’s a newspaper article about grandpa and grandma, and grandma was tops, she was 11 not a raging beauty. She was a delight to anyone, and everyone, and her heart was as big as the world. She kept grandpa tamed, ya know, kept his feet under him. She supported him. She was involved with the wives of the police officers in Ogden, and organization. Anyways, it didn’t matter to her that grandpa gave ten dollars away so this guy wouldn’t be so down on his luck. CT: Ten dollars was a lot of money back then too. NL: It was. CT: You’d practically add another zero now. NL: But there was apparently a young lady who worked at the cannery. They grew up and grandpa moved house from like 13th Jefferson, to 1717 Grant Avenue, and that’s mostly where the boys had their life, my father and his brothers but there was a girl who worked at the cannery and there was an accident. Apparently she chopped some fingers off or a thumb off, and grandma and grandpa took her in and took care of her until she was healed and could get back into some sort of mainstream. Those kinds of things were happening all the time. Grandpa went down on his off time to go work on the Dinsdale farm. One day, my father tells the story, grandpa saw a lot of tough life. The railroad bought a big piece of land, going right throw the Dinsdale property. And it curves around lower 17th and over to the 24th Street train station. And that all was the Jeffery Dinsdale, my grandmas Champneys, property. There was lot of property there, a lot of farm land. And grandpa would go down and help, and dad was with grandpa one day and two trains, one coming out of Ogden going north, and one coming into Ogden coming towards the south. And apparently a hobo jumped off the train. 12 Dad remembers seeing this. The hobo did not now than another train was coming, so he jumped, got hit by the other train, and dad remembers seeing his body fly up above the train. And grandpa said you stay here. And grandpa went over and took care of the situation. That wasn’t even a police story that was just one of the stories on duty. One of the things grandpa Champneys had to do, am I being too flaky in all of these? CT: You’re fine, you’re fine. NL: One of the things grandpa Champneys had to do was go from call box to callbox of course. He’s on the Beat for 25th Street and on one of the call boxes he was told there was a burglary in progress, and I think it was over on 23 Street someplace. So grandpa ran over there, its of course the night shift. Grandpa goes around the house and there’s a back window open. Grandpa told me this story. Heaved him up to the window sill, window pane, window sill, quietly into the back bedroom and rolled under the bed and rolled right into the burglar. So under this bed are a policeman and a burglar. tasseling. To me the mental vision of what this is. CT: Oh, heavens yes, that would be scary. NL: And grandpa was able to subdue him and arrests him and gets him into the police station. Another story that grandpa told was the story of, when I heard your gals on Monday talk about, was it jade? , The jade chain or whatever. The oriental section of Ogden, down near that area. Apparently that night there was a poker game and one of the oriental men, who had a laundry business down there, lost his business in the poker game. 13 CT: Wow. NL: He went to the business and grandpa s on duty. He's waking his feet and he notices underneath the door a light is on, so he pulls his gun, he pushed the door in, and there hanging is the father of the family. The man that lost the business hanged himself. Now I don’t know about many other people, but to me that is trauma. But grandpa’s upbringing, grandpas disposition, grandpas very nature made him not hardened to these thing, I don’t know if grandpa ever became hardened, but he was very capable in these situation to keep thing down. My father tells stories that year after year after year during the depression grandpa would bring home exotic gifts from the multitude of ethnic groups that were around the 25th Street businesses. And they would have, they would be previewed to fruits and candies and treats from all over the world. It wasn’t big stuff but grandpa was so well like that the people just thought to share with him and care about him. CT: It’s interesting though that the names of the people who owned businesses back in 1820, because there’s Greeks, there’s Italians, there’s Mexicans, and you name it. NL: Right. And grandpa’s brother in law was golden brown and he had a barber shop down there as well. He was married to grandpa’s sister and just a naughty guy, but anyway. Dad remembers s walking the beat. Dad was born Thomas Champneys, Thomas Deray Champneys, and we have relatives that were born into the Dee family that during polygamy and this is the mystery, this woman was really a grumple. She was just a grumpy lady. When Polygamy was stopped the 14 far or the Dee family member that had married on of grandpas relative was divorced. Rulon Champneys was the very best genealogist that was grandpa’s half-brother. He I went to looked in the city records to see when this marriage was started and ended and that page is torn out of the records. My father middle name is Deray, and grandma and grandpa kind of held there nose at the fact that there was Dee ties through their family and that. So Lloyd d. Champneys, and Thomas Deray Champneys, so anyway. CT: So that initial that a Dee. NL: Well dad remembers going, well are you tired of this? CT: I’m fascinated. NL: Oh you’re fascinated! I love this and wish my sister in mesa was here because she knows it all. CT: Yeah it’d be fun to have someone else adding to it. But you are doing well, don’t stop. NL: You’re gracious, thank you so much. Dad remember going through the Beat. Red light alley was a prominent part of 25th Street while grandpa was there. CT: In 1920 it was in full force back then. NL: So dad remembers s a few times going with grandpa, just walking with him. Grandpa was alone. Dad said one night they were in an alley, checking things out near red light alley, and a cat must have jumped onto a garbage can lid. Now my father when he was young had bone straight hair. There was not a wave to be found. Dad said that scared me so bad I’m sure that I had a full volume of straight hair going out from my head. He was so afraid; he was totally stopped in 15 his tracks. Grandpa laughed, he could tell the effect of this on dad, but that was a tender moment that my father had a memory of his father. Grandpa walked his beat with this Billy club. CT: My goodness. NL: And this is, this is a fun story grandpa told me and I cannot tell you how much I treasure that stick. CT: Wow, that an accurate piece of wood. NL: And grandpa would walk his beat, he told me he would walk his beat and practice flipping it forward and catching it and twirling it, you know all the things you see. Well one night one of the Sullens on 25th Street called and said there was a couple of rowdy men there they were drunk out of there mind. One was a Native American and he was a large man in stature. And if you’ll find the notch in that for me please, the there you go. CT: Oh that? NL: Yeah when Grandpa got to the saloon these two gentlemen were in such an inebriated state and their conduct was drunken and disorderly and when grandpa approached them this huge Native American man pulled out a bull knife and raised it and grandpa caught it right there. So you know you can see that is hard wood. And that bully knife, Grandpa would be split in half. So he was he stopped the force of the knife and hit the man in the abdomen which knocked him to the ground and he tousled with that man and was able to handcuff him and the other guy was just stunned and grandpa was able to get both of them and into the police station. So I price that grandpa story from his own mouth. 16 CT: About what year would that have been, in the 1920’s some time. NL: You know what I cannot tell you, it’s got to be between 1938 and 1940. Because in ‘35 he was the chauffer. You’re welcome to have this timeline if you’re interested at all. I can’t tell you more, I’m sorry. I was so dumb I did not think dates. That was not important to me. Grandpa tells the story of the madams down there. And He befriended many and he was not judgmental, he was not to anyone’s knowledge, he was never enticed he was loyal to grandma, and grandma was not, like I said she was not a beauty. But she was CT: You keep saying that she sounds like a wonderful person NL: She was so genuine, now this was after, I think this was this was after her teeth were pulled they were very dominant as a young woman. I’ve got some pictures that I’ll have to thumb through and show you some of the pictures but anyway. CT: So this is grandpa right here? NL: Right. CT: That’s him and that’s his wife? NL: And this is Uncle Welden oldest son there’s I think there’s like 3-4 years between them and mom and dad and then these two guys Carol and Floyd were followed quickly thereafter. Uncle Weldon is the one that gave me a lot of history about grandpa. And I did a presentation in two thousand something at Weber State for the Utah Historical Society. Mr. Something let’s see, oh I can’t Gene hmm Gene Saunders…..I don’t know anyway. So I did this presentation I got a wonderful timeline from Uncle Weldon because he was still alive at this time who gave me a history. But Grandpa’s love of swimming, grandpa saved a lot of lives as a 17 lifeguard. But he made sure that his boys new how to swim and so there’s an article in the newspaper about that swimming picture. In this scrapbook are pictures of newspaper articles that mom kept. These are the four boys that they had as babies, and this one is my father, this is grandma on the Dinsdale farm. CT: This is your father? NL: Yes. CT: Isn’t he cute? NL: This is grandma, and her mother, Ann Alice was more of a social butterfly and but grandma Chatney stayed home, grandma took care of family, she was a lot more devoted to the children. This is grandpa, Aunt Elisabeth, and there’s Thomas Champneys grandpas father. And if you look at grandpa’s nose here you will see it’s a little skiwampus that’s from the boxing. CT: That is, yeah. NL: He took a lot of nose blows. CT: That was back when they fought bare knuckled too and that wasn’t for wimps yeah. So, this is him in his police uniform, right? NL: That is him in his police uniform there’s some pictures here. CT: It looks like the way it would have been in the twenties this one? NL: I wouldn’t doubt it. This is I think the presentation I gave at Weber State that’s as that is as factual as I was capable of doing. With the oldest son being alive, okay. CT: Yeah, well that’s as factual as anybody’s going to get. 18 NL: Well he was in his later 80’s when this all happened. This is grandmas scrapbook ok, here’s pictures of grandpa, back row W.S. Champneys grandpa’s back there. These are pictures, like, I don’t know where they came from; I don’t know if this is in the newspaper. This is Floyd, that was the swimming ace at Weber State. He was well known for that for his swimming up at Weber State. He, yeah, there they’d all be way too old for you. There’s the article July 15, 1936. CT: What was the occasion? NL: Meet the swimming champions of Ogden. Father Champneys and his four sons challenge any similar group in the state to a swimming meet. The Champneys were snapped at the Weber Gymnasium pool. Left to right is Weldon, grandpa, dad, Carol, and Buzz. So anyway, this would be grandpa on the back row right here. CT: What year was that? NL: Who knows. I don’t think that that’s been dated. This is kind of grandma’s scrapbook. This is what happened to grandpa when he was in the declining years of his police time, he became a detective and he helped to work on getting bikes licensed so that they would be able to track down stolen bikes which leads to this next story. My sisters got the original this is all copies. CT: Sure. I know I’ve got an original print of Harm Perry sitting in front of the police department so I’m sure your grandpa’s in there. NL: Well I’ll be, that is wonderful. CT: I’ll have to bring it by and have you take a look. NL: I would love that. 19 CT: Its great fun, I’ve also got it in a folder along with Harm Perry’s booking card when he was put in jail. Yeah, he was arrested several times for selling booze to minors. NL: Okay, so the story. Grandpa became after his active duty on the force, grandpa became a detective and here’s in December 1946 a picture of grandpa as a detective. And a story that Uncle Weldon told me was that one day where the Navy Reserve building is above the oden school district I think its Naval. Yeah, that’s what it was. NL: Uncle Weldon oldest son was doing sort of a combined kind of equipment to cut down weeds that were in that field, it was before it was the naval place and the turners the wheel hit something clanged something, so uncle Weldon stopped, this is when grandpa is the detective and this says 1946. NL: So there had been a big rash of bicycle thefts, grandpa was the detective and so Uncle Weldon got off the equipment and went over and found a bike frame, and he just put it up against the fence that was up there and continued his job. That night that very night over dinner table grandpa was home and Uncle Weldon was just casually was talking about what was going on and mentioned that he found this bike frame. Grandpa immediately picked up in interest and said, “Where? Go show me.” And so that night they went back and to where Uncle Weldon had put the frame and Uncle Weldon said grandpa immediately from that moment on tramped that whole area up and down pretty soon going up and down what is the embankment there and he found a cave. CT: No, really. 20 NL: There was a cave there. CT: News to me. NL: I’m glad I can give you some news. Anyway there had been brush pulled to the cave to cover it and so Uncle Weldon said grandpa would leave before dawn and go down and hide him and watch day after day until he saw some activity at that cave. And sure enough he saw someone go in. So grandpa went into the cave and apprehended a 17-year-old boy who happened to be someone who lived in the same area as the 1717 Grant home. So grandpa knew, it led also to the arrest of an adult, a young adult. A 20 year old I think, a 20 something year old. The boy was 17 and then the 20 something year old. They arrested these two boys [and] stopped one of the thug rings that was going on in Ogden because grandpa was able to help find out that one of the bicycle shops here. And I’m not sure what street it was on I’d like to say Washington, but it was a bicycle shop and that fronted for the stolen bike parts when grandpa went in to the cave when he found it when he discovered it and went in he saw, you know, bikes and all various conditions of being pulled apart and many of them. So it would have had to been a pretty big cave there. CT: Yeah, basically he found a bicycle chop shop is what it boiled down to. NL: Yeah right and so then they were able to find which, which bicycle shop was buying those stolen goods and then reselling them. CT: Interesting. NL: And that ended one of the ways of bicycle thefts in Ogden. Are you about through with me am I through taping. I’m not through with stories 21 CT: I’m through taping when you’re done with stories I’m telling you I don’t get paid I’m not paid by the hour so and I’m fascinated NL: You are such a good sport. Well grandpa knew Marshall White. And of course Marshall White was a lot younger than grandpa but grandpa said to my father a number of times, “I feel safer with Marshall White when there is and when there is ethnic up rest, and when there are problems with different ethnic groups in Ogden and Marshall’s Whites stayed at grandpa and grandpas house a number of times, came over as there guest they were good friends, and it really did devastate grandpa when Marshall White was killed. CT: I bet. Marshall White was incredibly popular around here. NL: He was but he had grandpa because he himself was a different ethnicity he had a sense about him and he just had a way, plus grandpa had a disposition that was I’m not going to fight with you but come lets reason together kind of thing. And people took to grandpa he did not have to be loud and boisterous but he was not going to be pushed around. He just was, they both were likable men, but Marshall White really earned the reputation he had, but I’m delighted that grandpa was a little part of that reputation they went out together they were friends at times. CT: Oh yeah. Did he talk about any of those times they went out together? NL: Not if he did I don’t have any history of it, and I have more history as far as verbal goes than my sister, she’s got, she’s got like this timeline she’s got the paper facts, the paper trail. I got the chance to sit with grandpa that’s why I got the billy 22 club, I would probably take my sisters eyes out if they said now we want it I’m coming I want that. CT: Just make sure you tell somebody where it goes later on. NL: Absolutely, and my children know about it, and I’ve taught school for years and I as I’ve talked about honoring our city officials and the importance of family, I bring that, I’ve brought that to class and showed the kids and they could put their finger in that wow. Grandpa…. CT: That’s very typical for what it was like down there though and you know of course it shows what the police we’re dealing with because they were out there on their own you know. They didn’t have a radio where they could call for backup you know a cop was you had to go find a call box somewhere, so it was pretty much him on his own like. NL: And his night was walking from call box to call box, many time drunken disorderly conduct were tickets that he issued on 25th Street. But I think that the biggest, the biggest story in grandpa’s career was what brought a little bit of good notoriety to 25th street and to our police officers grandpa and his partner, and I’ve got that on my computer too and I’m happy to have you take a look at it if you’d like to, but it’s a newspaper article. Grandpa and his partner were working with the police force because there was a national check counterfeiting business. And there were times they found to Ogden and 25th Street and grandpa, like I said, grandpa was a friend and so there was the madam on 25th Street that worked with grandpa and his partner and she gave grandpa clues and whatever they worked together. Well one night grandpa, not a dark night, I don’t know 23 what time of night it was, but it was getting dark. Grandpa had to go talk with her, with his partner, and grandma was home and grandma received a phone call and grandma said, “Hello.” And the woman’s voice on the other end of the line said, “Do you know where your husband is?” and grandma said, “Yes I do” ….click…. we thought that was a real fun story. CT: Trying to cause trouble and it didn’t work out. NL: But anyway, grandpa received, along with his partner and someone else, and this is a newspaper article, a letter from J. Edgar Hoover, commending them the thorough and good work that these men had done in order to help bust this national ring of check forgery. CT: Wow. NL: So that’s kind of cool. CT: Who’s got that letter is it floating around everywhere? NL: I don’t know that we’ve got one floating around. My sister has not said anything about it. I don’t care what she’s got, she has been the family, family person and I think that she’s the one that bit the bug that got named genealogy bug. She just, she is so good and anything and everything that she’s got she can document or she will not claim it until she’s got proof for the Champneys line. We’ve got an inprecent line, an honorable line, and then we’ve got scoundrels. CT: Well welcome to the real world, every family’s got both. NL: That’s right so anyway, grandpa was involved in getting bicycles licensed and this this tells the story of grandpa working on the bicycling licensing. It was his suggestion that when we bought our boys their bicycles we put a picture of the 24 boy, we take the handle off the bike and put a picture with the child’s name and address inside the handlebars, and then put the handle grip back on. CT: I’ve never thought of that, that’s an excellent idea. NL: It is an excellent idea. Grandpa had a pet turtle Pedro was his name, and I was maybe two years old and there’s a picture of that somewhere, but Pedro wandered off and for five years was gone. Grandpa had drilled through its shell and had put a hole where he could put little connector, and staked Pedro in the back yard of the home on 1717 Grant. Pedro broke, the shell broke, and Pedro got away. This is just a little turtle, but he broke it, and they had carved, I don’t know if it was a T or, I don’t remember what it was in the back on his back shell. Five years later along comes Pedro and there’s a picture, they, the newspaper caught wind of this they just the newspaper back then told every gory detail every single thing. And so anyway here we are celebrating the return of Pedro and I get to be on grandma and grandpa’s front porch my hair is askew my, I’m in Levi’s, mom said, “oh wait can’t I just dress her up a little bit, can’t I comb her hair”. And the photographer said, “No.” So there I am kind of looking down at this turtle and I look like I’m a ragamuffin and I’m really not. But Grandpa…. CT: What year would that have been? NL: I’m not going to tell you because that would give you my age. I’m an old lady; I’m just too young to be this old. CT: Anyway, grandpa did what? NL: So grandpa, but grandpa was very proud he was the one that positioned us and put us into place for this, for this… 25 CT: I’m just trying to figure out if a friend of mine Larry Carmine had been the one to take the picture, but probably not. NL: I’m not going to tell anybody my age when I’m on tape. CT: Good for you. NL: I show my age when I wash my makeup off, that’s the end of it, my mirror knows the real me. I can’t remember a lot more on grandpa as far as these things go, and I cannot wait to get into this. And I’m going to if you don’t mind, I’m going to beg you and say how can we get his information on CD and DVDs. CT: Well if you have a laptop computer or do you. NL: I don’t have a laptop I have a personal computer. CT: Well there’s a couple of ways you can access that stuff, for newspapers between 1870 and 1928 you can go online and I think its digital newspaper dot org is all it is. It’s a compilation of newspapers put together by the library at the university of Utah and what they have done is they have taken every newspaper in the state, and so they are not done with it by any stretch of the imagination, but what they are doing is, is there photographing a page of each old newspaper and they are putting it up on their website and it’s digitized and it is run through computer software that makes it more searchable, so you can go to their website. NL: To 1928. I think that is how far my sister has got in her records, she’s going to come up in March and we are going to spend whatever time it takes to go through the library records CT: Well this is what is available online here at your house if you have internet access. And the reason it stops in 1928 is because that’s when they ran out of 26 money. But what they have done is they have taken from the Standard Examiner, what they have done is they have taken all the old bound copies of the standard examiner that we used to have down up in our office and when we moved out to be, we donated those to the Weber County library and there up in North Ogden now. But they take those and they photograph those pages ok. And meanwhile what the Weber County Library has which is what you have the results of it right there. NL: Right. CT: They subscribe to a different service which takes the microfilm from newspapers around the country, scans them and does the same thing with the word searchable deal. And you can access their service and you know there put up online again. And so you can go to the Standard Examiner on their service and they cover 1902 to 1977. And if you want to access it for free all you have to do is be at the Weber County Library. They have computers there that can access it for you. Or you can just go there if you’ve got a laptop with wireless and just hook into, they have a wireless network there and then you can just download it right onto your computer, that’s what I do is I just download PDFs onto my computer while I’m over there. When your there if your there using their computers you can download it as a PDF and just save it if you’ve got a flash drive save it to your flash drive. The third option that I haven’t used yet but if you up there where they have the original microfilm, it used to be when you looked at that microfilm you had to use these old beater printers, that sometimes worked and sometimes didn’t and they would print out. But when I was up there just a couple of weeks 27 ago they got new machines that again allow you instead of printing it out on a piece of paper they will put it on a computer file for you. How cool is that? NL: And we can find this out when we go to the library in March, fabulous. CT: I wouldn’t wait till then I would just go down there and say show me how this works there very nice well I mean they do all this for you. NL: I know there is no question about that. CT: They are very nice, they love to show people this stuff, but the stuff from 1902 to 1977. I think you’re going to fall in love with that because it’s very user friendly you just go in you pick the newspaper, and then you just type in your key words and it just brings up everything with those names in it… NL: Will it bring it up a little bigger than that? CT: That’s what I mean what they did was they just brought up the full page and just printed it out, but instead of binging up you can bring up individual stories. I don’t know if you can or not but what you do is instead of printing out like this you download a PDF of this page on your computer and you can blow it up as big as you want what we what I did was is I took a like for the union station dedication next year is the 90th anniversary of that, so I went down and I found the newspaper in 1924 that ran the coverage of the dedication it was November 23, 1924 and I just downloaded the PDF of that whole page and we’ve taken that and we’ve blown it up NL: Oh you are kidding, oh that would be fabulous. CT: And the really cool thing is stuff that old it’s entirely out of copyright you can do anything you want with it. 28 NL: You can just leave that there, I’ve just got a few more pictures these are family things that I don’t know it there’s a lot of interest but I’m just going to show them off oh the drivers license for my grandpa. Here is his time as a boxer. [Charles and Norma look over photographs] CT: How fun. NL: This is grandpa at whatever the great place was on The Great Salt Lake. CT: Oh Saltair. NL: Saltair yes, I don’t know the middle woman. Fanny Solomon, I think she was one of the detectives with grandpa, and that’s his sister this is grandma. Am I allowed to tell a naughty story on tape. CT: Everybody’s dead don’t worry about it. NL: This is kind of sense of humor grandma had. There’s grandpa in Saltair, also grandmas, not in this one. And this is a later picture, there’s grandpa there. CT: Which one is grandpa? NL: William Sively Champneys CT: A handcart, and graceful, now that’s fascinating. Which one was she, the one we were talking about, this one here? NL: Borrowed that, I’m sorry. I believe it was her. Now that’s interesting, because when I was talking with Marcy Korgenski she was under the impression that she was one of the first women on the force, apparently not. But grandpa, there’s an article that says, that shows a picture of a women in the detective unit with grandpa and the bikes. And that’s them, whoops that not the wedding one. CT: That’s the wedding one? 29 NL: I haven’t shown you anything wonderful, but this is the lighter. CT: Oh wonderful. NL: But way down in my things of grandpas. CT: Now here’s the question. Can we copy these and take them? NL: If I can keep the originals. CT: Oh absolutely, what I am going to propose, if you wouldn’t mind, I could take them home, scan them in, and then return these to you. And if your nervous at all then come with me and make sure I don’t… NL: No I am not nervous, I trust you. I really trust you but what I’m nervous about is the fact that I know grandpa. And when he moved in with us, the last five years of his life, mom got pregnant with daughter number 4in our family. Our home has been a basement home, when it was paid for; we build the second story, the main level of the house. So downstairs had a wonderful area that was all set up with cabinets and stove and fridge, and that’s were grandpa stayed. And he had to go through a hallway, past my bedroom, to get to the bathroom. and it was a wonderful arrangement. When my littlest sister was born grandpa and she just bonded so perfectly. And it was in our basement that grandpa passed away. I think I can remember him walking past my room many nights to get to the bathroom. And he had one leg that had a just a little bit of a drag. And when he was in his sleepers, she could hear that. That little tuss along the floor, the linoleum downstairs, and after grandpa pasted away, well while he lived with us, he introduced me to Kay’s Noodle Parlor fried shrimp. Shame on him but Utah men work harder, and that developed my love for the Utah Noodle Parlor shrimp 30 that just couldn’t be changed. And there was another littler parlor down I think it was grant between 24th and 25. CT: I think it’s a Thai place now. NL: Grandpa, he would just each one of, well dad had four daughters so he just had a date with each one of us girls. And we were young, and it was nice. As my youngest sisters growing up grandpa would take here to the blue white’s café. Do you know where that is? CT: No, where’s that? NL: I don’t know. CT: The Blue White Café? NL: Yep. And he would meet some men there and they’d just have morning coffee and have a talk. It was just something grandpa did. Well once in a while he’d take this little towhead. Little darling 2 and a half year old girl, or 1 and a half what have you, down there to show her off? The waitress, I think was name Ruth. My little sister always heard grandpa say let’s go down to blue whites. Let’s go down to blue whites. So one day the waitress came over and “Oh” and “Aw” over my sister. And my grandpa said, “Wanda this is Ruth. This is Ruth, can you say hi to her?” and my little towhead, darling, blue-eyed sister turned in her three-year-old strength and she refused to say anything. But she looked at grandpa and she refused to say anything to Ruth. And grandpa said “Wand, say hi to Ruth” and finally my sister pulled in her little lower lip and said, “That’s not Ruth that Blue White,” only with her cute little lisp. “That’s not Ruth that's Lou right?” Because that’s all she ever knew. Grandpa loved that little gal, and she’s the one that 31 discovered, mom discovered grandpa dead. Here are my parents, and my grandparents there. But anyway, grandpa had heart problems. and one morning mom heard her get up so she knew he was fine. And then she heard a funny noise. She thought” oh maybe he’s just kicking around”. And time went by and mom didn’t hear anything, so she went downstairs to check on grandpa. The deal was a, grandpa’s door was closed, don’t call me, I'll call you sort of thing. If it was open then the welcome mat was out. The door was partially closed, it was pretty much closed so mom was a little nervous and she knocked on the door and heard nothing. And grandpa was in the bathroom, us girls were at school except for this little towhead that’s about nine years younger than me, followed mom down the steps. So mom, after knocking on the door, opened the door and found grand pa in his under clothes on the floor. He apparently had gone over to the burrow to take out some socks because one sock was on, and he bent down to put on the sock and probably raced up and had a heart attack and fell down on that nose. So there he was, face down, and the blood was so much thicker and dryer, and there’s my little sister. My little, she just loved that grandpa and grandpa loved her, and that was the end of that. It was a week or two later. I was kind of in the grog of sleep, I’d been thinking about grandpa, and I heard a foot drag in the hallway. There was no one there, and there was no fear in me, and I was just able to say, “Goodnight grandpa, I love you”. And that was the end of him in me. You know, our life was precious and tender. Grandpa was- When I see this stack of stuff that has grandpa’s name attached, I am totally amazed I can’t wait to look through it. I hope I haven’t 32 wasted your time, but grandpa was partner to a lot of active. He was a gently kind man. Grandma was heavily involved with the Ogden police department women’s axillary. I know one day my father who was – my father was a wild hare. He was a nice man, but he was the fun side of what grandpa used to be, and he just stayed that way all his life. And down one day, grandpa or dad when down to do some pheasant hunting ----- but yields farm, which is by the river. And some people who lived down there, the women came out and started-she was an Italian mother- she started yelling and hollering and she grabbed dad and said, “You killed our chickens.” She brought dad over to where the chicken heads were. Remember, the railroad at this time had severed the land. But anyways dad said, “It couldn’t have been me, those heads are thawing in the morning frost. They were stuck in the frost”. She would not hear anything about it, so the police were called and Dawn’s son, my dad, was hauled off to jail with the accusation that he had taken and rung the necks of all these chicken. So, grandpa had to go and talk to the police. He was a police man at the time. He had to go down and bail dad out of jail. Dad doesn’t know what grandpa said, but dad said, “You know I wasn’t down there to do that, I was down there to hunt.” So grandpa had to eat a little crow himself and go bail his son out of jail. I don’t know if there ever caught who rung the necks. CT: I hope he was eventually acquitted of that. NL: Yes, he was cleared. There was no problem but anyways. What I neat guy, I'm sorry I missed him. I'm not sorry that I got to know him just a nice man. One day mom and dad would go down to grandma and grandpas- My 33 uncle will, the first son, had a child, the first grandchild to the family, and it was another son and grandma had raised her four boys to be honorable men when they were grown up but characters while they were growing up. Fun stories I could tell about them but I came along and I was the first granddaughter so grandma and I had a tremendous relationship. She was my very first hero. So any way, she treated me like royalty. CT: I’m sure you could spend a lot more time talking about your grandma, but NL: You know what, I did not know as much about grandma. And that's horrible. I know she was very active in the LDS church and that my uncle- oh she tried to back out of the drive way, they had a rock foundation and CT: Now you’re confusing me on one thing. Your grandfather name was Walden or Dawn? NL: Dawn is what he was called, but Weldon Sibley Champneys was his real name. CT: Oh, because you referred to an uncle names Weldon too. NL: Yes Weldon was the oldest son and I don’t – CT: His eldest sons Weldon NL: Yes but it’s not a Jr. It’s not a Weldon Sibley Jr. It’s Weldon D. Champneys or something. CT: Ok, that’s where I was getting confused. NL: Oh I don’t speak very clearly, my English needs improving. I don’t have a lot of knowledge on grandma; she was a stay at home women. I do know that one day she was driving their car out of the driveway and it was quite a long ways in before they got to the old chicken coup and there was not a garage- well there 34 was a garage there but grandma was backing out and the foundation of the house I think was rock and they just put aluminum or metal around the outside of the rock. And she backs like I do and she backed into the house and caught the tire on in such a way that she could not pull forward or get the car unstuck. And she was young but she was so embarrassed that that had happened, that she’d gone into the house and backed the car into the house that she never drove again. So Weldon little was the one that chauffeured her around. Dad has lots of sweet story of her; I’ve written his memories are he told them to me over the years. I have a little composition of his life. But grandpa one day, mom and dad were busy visiting grandma and grandpa. I remember dancing; I had a mirror I loved to dance in front of. It was way high on the wall but tipped in such me way that I could dance in the middle of the dance floor and see myself. And grandma was watching me, she would watch she was just so precious but she knew how to put grandpa in his place if he got a little too cocky. Mom said one day as she and dad would go over and play cards with grandma and grandpa Champneys, grandpa had grown kind of a little pot belly, and like I said he was a very solid man. But he had a little bit of a pot belly by now and he put the belt of his trousers under nether his tie and he said, “Look at this watermelon,” and kind of patted his tie thorough his shirt. And grandma looked at him and said, “Yes, but the stem is dead.” And grandpa pulled his pants up and said, "Grandma!” she just deflated him so bad. My aunt Marie Dinsdale remembers, she was married to grandmas brother, a Dinsdale, when she was sixteen and she was in his 20’s.and aunt Marie would stay a lot of times at grandmas and grandpa's house 35 and she told us that one day grandpa was off work and grandma Champneys was on one side of the bed and aunt Marie was on the other side of the bed. And grandpa came in, tip toed in and made a running dive in between the two women on top of the covers to wake the m up and scare the, CT: It probably would have, he was a big boy. NL: So anyway, I can’t tell you a whole lot more. They have- CT: What a fascinating guy. NL: They were good people. Grandpa was a fishermen and hunter and taught his sons to do that, but he was more involved with the police and detective stuff the being a real overly nurturing father. And I don’t say that to degrade him. He took the duty of a man very seriously and was protecting his children, his wife, and his community. CT: He's an amazing guy, I’m sorry I missed him. NL: He is a fascinating guy, and you’re a good guy for listening to all this talk 36