Oral History Program Lorrie Rands Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 15 August 2021-8 February 2023 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Lorrie Rands Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 15 August 2021-8 February 2023 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Queering the Archives oral history project is a series of oral histories from the LGBTQ+ communities of Weber, Davis and Morgan Counties of Northern Utah. Each interview is a life interview, documenting the interviewee’s unique experiences growing up queer. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Rands, Lorrie, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman, 15 August 2021-8 February 2023, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections & University Archives (SCUA), Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Lorrie Rands conducted in 4 parts from August 15, 2021-February 8, 2023 with Alyssa Kammerman. Lorrie discusses her memories of growing up in Utah, participating in an LDS mission, her marriage story and motherhood. Following her divorce, Lorrie recounts the experience of growing to understand her transgender child’s journey, as well as coming to terms with her own sexuality and finding love in her newfound queerness. Also present are Chauney Dunn, Alexis Stokes and Michael Thompson. This oral history has references to child abuse, sexual trauma, and suicide ideation. AK: Today is August 15, 2021. This is Alyssa Kammerman, interviewing Lorrie Rands. With me is Chauney Dunn. And we're just speaking with Lorrie for a life sketch. So Lorrie, do you want to start with when and where you were born? LR: Sure. I was born April 7, 1974. My parents, the story of their meeting is humorous, but I'm not going to relate it here. My father had been married before, had four children with his first wife, and met my mom. It never occurred to me that my mother was a stepmother until I was about 24 years old. For some reason it never equated in my head. But I never knew my older siblings, not well anyway. But my parents lived on 4th south and 7th east. There used to be a Zions bank. Maybe it's still there. And we lived somewhere in there and that's where the home that they took us, took me home to. And two years later, they moved to the house I remember, and that's the one on 7th east across the street from 1 Liberty Park. It was 1976, apparently, it was right after my little sister was born, Helen. Somewhere in there. I have no memory of any of that, obviously, because I was two. My first memory, I don't really have a first memory of that house. I've seen a picture of myself as a three-year-old, a four-year-old, and I wonder how I... What I was thinking and how I felt. I have no idea. I can't honestly remember. Yeah, my parents have five children together, my oldest brother was born in 1970 and then Kris was born in 1971. I was born in '74. Helen was born in '76... '75. And my little brother was born in '78, so that's my family. AK: I'm kind of intrigued by your story of your first memory being that photo of yourself as a little girl. You said that you wonder how you felt, but you can't remember. Would you elaborate? LR: I just don't know. I'm smiling in this photograph, and I just look so innocent. Yeah, I don't know. That's it. That's it. AK: You just feel like you don't connect with that? LR: I don't, but that's a really good way of putting it. I don't connect with that little girl. I don't know who she is. A part of me wishes I did know. And maybe I have an idea because of when my children were that age. Maybe I do, I just never thought about it in that way. I've seen how innocent my children were. So, maybe I do. AK: What is your first living memory is the word that's coming to my head, but like actual memory outside of the photograph? LR: Kindergarten, sitting around, and that there's this group of kids in kindergarten. I remember the teacher's name. I used to remember the teacher's name, it starts 2 with an H. She was old, and it was at the old Emerson Elementary. They tore it down. I remember walking from the old Emerson to the new Emerson as a kindergartner. I don't why I remember that. But we were sitting in this circle, and if you did something wrong in her class she would pull on your ear. And I remember she pulled on my ear. I don't know what, why, nothing. That's my first memory. I find it telling that I don't have a first memory of my home. I couldn't even begin to tell you. So just school, that's my first memory. AK: Why do you find it telling? LR: I don't think I wanted to be home. My dad, I can only imagine what it must have been like for him, but he's very controlling and he yelled. He yelled a lot. And my mother, I can honestly say, is just battered, not physically, but an emotionally battered woman that didn't know how to stand up for herself or her children. And so I don't have any memory of home until I'm older. My next memory is first grade, so I remember a dress. Yeah, I remember a dress. I wore it first, and then my little sister wore it, and it's the dress she would wear to go downstairs. I remember seeing it. Can we... just ask another question, please? AK: Yeah, so I'm curious. You said that most of your memories involve school. Did you like school? Was that a safe space for you? LR: It must have been. It must have been. It really must have been. In the first grade, I remember getting in trouble, but I didn't understand why I was getting in trouble. So there was this kid who took me into this--It's funny that I remember this, but I can't remember being at home. He took me into this, like, secluded place. And, 3 you know, like, "Hey, you show me mine, I'll show you yours." Or the opposite. I said that wrong, didn't I? AK: I know what you mean though. LR: "If you show me yours, I'll show you mine,” that thing. And I'm just like... I just remember feeling really uncomfortable; didn't know what to do. I didn't have anyone to talk to, but somehow, I talked to the teacher because she was very, "Hey, you don't need to do that. You need to be careful." So I wonder if I mentioned that to the teacher. I don't honestly remember, but I remember that the teacher found out what was going on. AK: And she acted like it was your fault, is that what you are saying? LR: I don't know. I don't remember. That's the only part. I vaguely remember that. So how old are you in the first grade? Seven? AK: Seven. LR: Yeah, and so that's about how old I was. And honestly, from the stories, the information I've gotten from my little brother, he was three years old when the abuse started. So I would have been seven. It makes me wonder if there's a connection there. I just don't know. AK: I know that's obviously a really sensitive subject. Do you want to talk about it at all? LR: I can answer questions. So if you'll ask me a question, I can answer it. AK: Okay. Yeah, that sounds good. LR: Okay, so honestly don't not ask a question. If you have a question ask it, and then we'll continue. I started on that story, and since I brought up the abuse, I'll 4 finish the story. My older brother, his legal name is Richard James Hill, and we called him Jim. I honestly don't know where I was sleeping when I was seven or eight. I'm assuming I had the room upstairs. So let me get this house figured out for you. So the house, the front door is facing 7th East. You walk in the front door and there's the front room, which we weren't allowed to play in because it was "The Front Room.” And then you walk into the dining room, which had a really cool built in mantle thing, a cubby, I can't remember what it's called. That's where the dinner table was. There was a big bay window in that room. Off that room was my parents’ bedroom. So if you're in the house facing west, it's on the right. If you continue walking, you walk into the kitchen, and at the back of the kitchen there's another room off to the right, which was many things. It was a bedroom, it was a TV room, and my dad eventually made a sunroom. The stairs leading up were right as you were walking from the dining room into the kitchen. And then there were stairs going down; that was just the basement, a bunch of dirt and a furnace room. Upstairs, there was a room at the top of the stairs, and then you had to walk through that room to get to the rooms in the back. There was a big room in back where I think I slept with my sister and then another tiny room where my older sister slept. Oh, the bathroom. There was only one bathroom, and the only way to get to the bathroom was to go through the TV room that's off the kitchen, or my parents’ bedroom. So one night, I knew my sister had gone downstairs, and I knew why she'd gone down, but I couldn't tell you at that time what was happening. I didn't understand what was going on. But I had to use the bathroom, so I went down 5 and I had to go through that room, and I knew she was hiding under the bed. She said to me later, that me coming down actually stopped him from raping her. I just had to go pee. So anyway, that was that story that I had started to tell. She brought that dress, but I have never... I think about that dress now, and it just makes me sick. I see a picture of it. So anyway. Okay, go ahead to ask a question. AK: Yeah, okay, definitely. So you mentioned that, obviously, you weren't the only one being targeted by your brother. Was there ever anyone you trusted that you guys were able to talk to you about any of this? LR: No. No. AK: Did you tell anyone at all? Or did you keep it quiet? LR: What a great question. I honestly don't know. I know that at one point, according to my brother, he actually asked me if he could do things to me, and I told him no. That's the lie he told everyone, that I told him no, so he never touched me. I always knew that wasn't true. I couldn't tell you why I knew. I'd had dreams. I can remember waking up in the morning and not having anything on, and I didn't go to bed that way. So I just knew. But to be honest, a part of me thinks the worst was seeing what was happening and not understanding and no one to talk to; being confused. I can think of that as an adult, thinking of that little girl not knowing who to talk to or "Who can I trust?" Being scared. I remember when I was being interviewed to be baptized, I felt so dirty. And what's supposed to be, apparently, a beautiful thing. I thought, "Well, maybe if I'm baptized, I won't have these thoughts anymore," and it didn't work. I don't know why I'm laughing. It 6 must be the response. I didn't understand. Honestly, I had no clue what I was feeling. AK: When did you finally tell someone? Who was that person? LR: I have no idea. For some reason, my parents let Jim baptize Blaine, and that's the day he confessed. According to my siblings, a lot of us made mention of what was happening, but Jim had manipulated my mother to the point where, if we said something to her she would tell him, and then he would rub it in our face. I honestly, I don't know. It's just little things that I remember. I remember asking my mother once. I don't know how old I was. Maybe I'll come back to that. AK: Of course. So two things. First is, you mentioned earlier, that it never occurred to you that your mom was a stepmother and originally, I was wondering if that's because your family felt so unified, but I guess you don't know. Is it because she tried to kind of tell you that you were unified? Kind of make that feeling? LR: No, they never lived with us. AK: Okay. LR: My oldest brother is 16 years to the day older than me. They never lived with us. My oldest sister did for a little bit, and so did my oldest brother, but I had no memory of it at all. AK: Okay, so it's more like they just were kind of nonexistent in your life. LR: Yeah, and they didn't really care for my mom, which makes sense. AK: Yes, so I want to get into kind of what led into your healing journey from that, but I know you also wanted to go linearly. So during this time, it sounds like most of this trauma happened during elementary school. Is that correct? 7 LR: I think so. It had to be because he was 16. I was 12. That's also where my memory really starts. I remember a lot more after—for some reason, sixth grade, I remember pretty clearly, but not what I was doing at home. My dad was bishop when I was in the sixth grade. And he got Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma. He didn't want to tell a soul. We couldn't tell anyone that he had cancer. I don't know why he didn't want anyone to know. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I think it's also telling that if he didn't want anyone to know that he had cancer, then he couldn't let anyone know that his son was a pedophile. I don't remember my brother leaving, but he had to leave for six months. I do remember it was really important that he come back home to my parents. To be honest, I think most of the trauma I remember is when I was a teenager. We helped dig out the basement so that he had a place to live. Why they allowed him to come back home, I'll never understand. What was your question? Sorry. AK: Oh, no, I just kind wanted to move into elementary. But I did want to know, where did your brother go for six months? LR: I have no idea. I guess it was like a... AK: Rehab center? LR: Kind of, yeah. Whatever was popular during the 80s, you know. Yeah, it was 1986 because I was 12 in 1986. I have no idea where he went. He had to live with my grandfather; he hated that. But we dug out the basement. I guess I do have one memory that's actually not bad. Before we dug out the basement, the furnace room had the old coal-burning furnace. And I can remember we would sit down there with it open, so the fire’s burning, and had family home evening 8 sitting around that. Anyway, that's a memory. I hope that's a good memory. Sorry, I'm not being very linear here. AK: No, this is perfect. When are oral histories ever linear anyway, right? LR: True. AK: Did others see your family as different than kind of how things really were? LR: Oh yeah. We were “The Family.” Nothing was wrong. My parents put on a show. It shocked everyone when my little brother started doing drugs and smoking and drinking, but no one had any idea about what that little boy went through. I have no idea what that little boy went through. I know that Blaine told Jim that if he would leave his sisters alone, he'd do what he wanted, to play. I can't imagine what that was like for him, but that's the kind of person my little brother is. We were never allowed to talk about it with one another. Only my siblings received help. I was considered the lucky one because he said he never touched me. I remember being so jealous they all got to go to a camp. My sister has since said that she's glad I didn't go because I probably would have been more traumatized because their group therapy was awful. But I always felt like jipped, like, "Why don't I get to go? Why are you singling me out?" I always felt apart; I never felt like I really belonged. I just wanted to fit in. I wanted to be noticed. I'm surprised I didn't start drinking and doing drugs or, you know, start sleeping around or whatever. It shocks me. I just wanted to be noticed. I discovered I was really good at sports, so I got noticed that way. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting lost in my head. Go ahead and ask a question. AK: What sports did you play? 9 LR: I ran track for a little bit, and I played basketball. What's funny is that my older brother, I would play one-on-one with him, and I learned how to shoot because he was a lot taller than me. I learned how to shoot. I was a really small forward because I would play one-on-one with him, and that's the only good thing he ever did for me. AK: How old were you when you started track and basketball? LR: I was in junior high. I ran track for only a summer, but I had so much fun doing that. I was pretty good at it. I didn't want to try out for the team in high school or junior high. So I focused on basketball. Actually, made the team in junior high. AK: The basketball team? LR: Yeah, I was pretty good. AK: So what drew you to track and basketball? LR: That's a good question. Maybe because Jim did it and I was trying to get his attention. Maybe because I was good at it and would, you know, play ward ball in Young Women's. I was always good at it. It's a good question, I don't know. I keep coming back to this thing, and I don't want to talk about it, but it keeps coming up. Does that mean I should talk about it? AK: Yes. LR: Damn. I will preface it with, when I was younger, there were two times that I tried to kill myself. Which is sad. Never, never got very far, which is always good, but I don't think I actually wanted to die. I just wanted to be noticed. I wanted the pain to stop, and I had no one to talk to. I can look at this logically now, but when I was a little girl, it didn't make any sense to me. I remember talking to my mom 10 once, and I don't know how the conversation started. I'm trying to remember what words I would have used, but I don't know. So I have to say, use adult words. AK: Yeah. LR: It's amazing to me the amount of shame associated with this for me, and I really don't want to talk about it, but it won't go away. Okay, so anyway, I'm talking to my mother, and the term she gave it—I can't do it. I'm going to write it down. AK: Oh yeah, go for it. LR: I can't say the word, and what's funny is, it's not like it's terrible. I don't know how to spell it. Is that enough that you can finish? AK: Masturbation? LR: Thank you. I couldn't say the word. I was talking to her about that. I think that's why I was ashamed to be baptized. I think I didn't understand what was happening, the feelings that were being created by watching what was happening around me. So I'm talking to my mom about this. The only thing I remember her saying is, "Be careful, you don't want to end up like your brother." So in my head, it said, "Oh, my God, if I do this, then that means I'm a pedophile too." But I'm a kid. I don't understand that it's just not something that you can turn on and off, you know. I understand that as an adult now. They're adult feelings that no one ever talked to me about and that they're just feelings. I just wanted those feelings to go away, and that's why I would masturbate to make the feelings stop. Huh, I get it. Okay, see, there's a reason why I had to talk about this, but it's so hard for me to talk about. And after she said that, all I remember thinking was, “I can never do that again. I'll be just like him.” Yeah. The only 11 times I ever tried to kill myself were after I, I had just, I was just, "No, I can't believe I did it again. Fine, it's not worth it. I can't go on like this.” The worst one, I actually put my hand through my window and grabbed the glass and started just cutting my arm. I wanted to be anywhere, but I didn't want to feel anymore the shame. I remember thinking, "What if God, He's watching me? He must think I'm a terrible person, because I have no control over my thoughts. I'm going to be just like him." It's interesting now to think of it in the terms of "I just wanted the feelings to stop." That's why I would do anything I could, and that was the quickest and easiest way because they would stop. Wow, okay. AK: Yeah. LR: All right. That was really hard to talk about. AK: Oh you're good. I'm glad that you did, because obviously we needed to. So it's good. I'm curious, how did this impact your schooling? Because I imagine all this trauma, I'm guessing you were kind of a quiet kid. LR: I was very quiet, unless I was playing sports. I was a tomboy. I've thought about this a lot, with what's happening with Nute now. I honestly thought that if I was a boy, I wouldn't be looked at or noticed in that way. And so, I did my best to be a boy. I hated wearing dresses. I hated wearing nightgowns. To this day, I refuse to wear a nightgown. I remember one morning waking up with my--I'd forgotten about this, my nightgown all the way up to my throat. My arms were out and everything, and oh my gosh, it's a good thing I don't remember this. My underwear was at the bottom of the bed. I have no idea what happened in the 12 night, which I'm very grateful for. But yeah, I still won't wear a nightgown to bed, I refuse to. What was your question? AK: It's okay. No I was... LR: I can't believe I remembered that. AK: Yeah, no, this is good. No worries. I was wondering about school. LR: Oh, that's right. AK: How you coped with school with all this trauma going on. LR: I was a straight-A student. I was a very good student. It was the one place I felt safe, and so I did really well in school. I loved school. AK: Did it give you that sense of, this was the one thing you could control, kind of? LR: In a way? I think so. And I had this rivalry with my little sister to see who could do the best. It started when I was in sixth grade and she was in a fifth-sixth split. She was smarter than me and it pissed me off. And I was not nice to her, apparently, when we were doing this, I was just mean. I remember--Okay, this is funny, this is what I remember from sixth grade. I was wearing white shorts. I thought I had finished my period, thought it was over. Well, what do I know? I'm just 12 years old. I don't talk about this with my mother, you know. I was not done, and I was so embarrassed I couldn't tell anyone. I went to my little sister and said, "Give me your sweatshirt." And I sat and cried. I literally cried because I couldn't tell anyone. And my teacher was, "What is going on? You need to talk to me." I couldn't, I couldn't tell her. And I think that's telling. I couldn't talk about anything that was happening to me in my home. Why is this any different? She literally took me into another room and would not 13 let me leave until I told her what was going on. And the relief I felt when I finally did. She's just, "Sweetie, you're fine. Why didn't you say so? It's no big deal." Ugh, well, it's a big deal to me. All I could think of was "But it is." For some reason there was just this connection in my head that if people know I'm a girl, I'll get hurt. So yeah, I tried really hard to hide my body, to hide the fact that my boobs were growing. I refused to wear a bra because, you know, that means I'm getting older. I wanted to hide. AK: I remember from our last interview that you said that you resonated with history from pretty early on. LR: Yeah, I don't understand why I did. It's a safety thing I think, that turned into a career. I felt safe in the past because it can't hurt me. My own past could, but other people's pasts can't hurt me, and it was interesting to see how other people lived. AK: When did you start loving history? Was there something, like a turning point for you? LR: In the eighth grade, I had an amazing history teacher. I fell in love with history in her class. What's funny is, I was picked on and I don't understand why. But I'm sitting in that class, there were these boys and I remember one because as a senior he died in a horrific car accident. I never liked him. I hated him, and I felt guilty for hating him because he died horrifically. But I'm sitting in class, and I look down and there's a piece of paper. Well, unbeknownst to me, they had written a note and put it where I would find it. So I pick it up, I open up and I start reading it. I don't know what I did, what my reaction was, but the only part of it I 14 remember is, they said, "You like wearing tight shirts to show off your boobs." It was really a gross note, I think. It's the only part I remember. I must have told someone, because I'm in the principal's office with my parents. They tell me who they think has written the note because they recognize the handwriting, and it's this kid. It's all I remember, but it's funny to me that I still love history because it was the history class that this happened in. I just wanted to hide. AK: Did you have any good friends that kind of had your back through any of this? LR: No, never told anybody, never told anyone. I would be surprised if any of my friends knew what was happening in our home. I think the safest I felt was when he was gone. Maybe that's why I remember sixth grade so much. I remember I was in the sixth grade, coming back from an assembly, and being told about the Challenger. I remember seeing a CD for the first time, my teacher brought it in. She was so amazed by it. I remember my sixth-grade year a lot. Going to the gallery with my Dad, one of the few outings with my Dad that I remember. So that must have been when he was out of the home, but it didn't last long. I don't have a lot of memory of my ninth-grade year. I only remember my eighth-grade year because of basketball. I remember in my seventh-grade year I received an award, but I never got to go to the awards banquet because my brother didn't let anyone know that. He'd answered the phone and he didn't take the message, but I got a P.E. award because I was that good. I like to say that. I just felt so proud when I got to gym class the next day and they said, "Sorry, we missed you last night, but here, you got this award." Like the best Physical Ed student of seventh grade, all of seventh grade. Dang, I must be good. 15 I have never put that timeline together. I don't know how long he was gone, honestly. I do remember that there was a time when my mother came and told me that I couldn't wear what I wanted to because I made him uncomfortable. I had to change what I wore to make him feel better. Now, that pisses me off, having to accommodate him so he could feel better. As a teenager, I didn’t understand. I understand now. And then they let him go on a mission. This is how I know that hardly anyone knew, they let him go on a mission. Now, that was nice because he wasn't home. I remember my first job; I remember that because he wasn't home. My jaw locked when I was probably 14 or 15, my jaw just locked. I couldn't open it and it was painful. I couldn't eat. I lost a lot of weight. I was skinny for the first time in my life because I couldn't eat, and it required surgery to fix. So I had that surgery, and he came home shortly thereafter from his mission. I remember it was winter, and it hurt to be out in the cold. It hurt my jaw, the joint, so I'd put a scarf over my head because it hurt so bad. I worked at Smith's Food and Drug as a bagger. It was my first job, and I was really proud of that job because I was making my own money. Never thought too much about this timeline before. So I was a freshman in high school, and it was January or February of that year, so it was 1989, 1990? Somewhere in there. He came home, and I was so frustrated. I just wanted to understand why he never did anything to me, why he kept saying that. So I confronted him about it in the front room. What's interesting about that is, I think about it now, he got as much joy and pleasure out of telling me what he did as he would've had actually doing it. And I felt dirty and violated 16 and I didn't know what to do. I'll never forget the look on his face. I have said that I know what true evil looks like, and it was that look. That awful... I don't remember much after that. I was a junior in high school, or sophomore, and according to my sister, I would disassociate a lot and she'd have to come and get me out of it. I don't remember it. So my sophomore and junior years of high school, I have very little memory of. I started seeing a hypnotherapist; sometimes I think this caused more trauma than the actual trauma. I was forced to see a therapist, and she was convinced that I had multiple personalities. She told my parents, “You need to get her in to see this hypnotherapist who can help her integrate all of these.” I roll my eyes now, but his name was Dr. Gant. [To Alyssa] Is that familiar to you? Oh, good. He irritated me. I remember this feeling in his office of just "Oh, this isn't right." And he made a tape, a meditation tape, for me. I’d listen to this every day, and he could hypnotize me, no problem. Yep, I was easily hypnotized, and he had me convinced that I was a part of a satanic cult. I'm 16 years old. AK: I'm sorry, a satanic cult? LR: A Satanic cult, and that it was running rampant in my neighborhood, and he would ask me to name the people I could see in the circle. He would describe for me what the circle looked like, and who was in it, that there were men in these black cowls standing around the circle. I needed to describe what they looked like, and that they were men in my neighborhood. “Okay, sure. I'll tell you, some men in my neighborhood.” AK: Oh my goodness. 17 LR: He went so far as to tell me that I had been pregnant and given birth, and the baby had been put up for adoption. I know it's so weird. I mean, it was as real, and it made sense to me, I had created this. It was partly fiction, part real. I remember as a little girl—and this is part of the timeline, which is weird because I never thought about it until I was 16—there was a trampoline in the backyard and on the other side of the fence, there was this little secluded area. I remember looking over and there was a group of five or six boys, my brother being one of them, and my older sister is in the middle of them. They are having their way with her. I remember watching that and being scared to death. I remember how it felt. So my brother manipulated that enough that one of the boys confronted me, told me, "You can't ever tell what you've seen." I mean, it could have happened. I don't know. And I was so scared I peed my pants. This is what he helped me remember. I have no idea if it happened or not. I know watching that, seeing that happen, I know that was real. Because my body remembers. I don't know if that makes sense, but nothing else is real to me. So I think maybe it didn't happen. I think part of me was actually getting attention—I was being noticed, and for someone like me, that's all I wanted. I can understand why I would talk about it to anyone who would listen. It's not real because I can talk about it without any— it's easy to talk about. It got so bad that year that I went on home schooling for the rest of the year. That sucked. Before I was homeschooled, I was so miserable. It sucked. I think my teachers were happy that I was on home schooling. I saw him for a 18 good year to a year and a half. My senior year, I'm in this group of girls, and one of them said to me, "If you're that uncomfortable, why don't you stop going?" “I can do that?” I didn't realize I could do that. "Yeah, just don't go." “Oh, okay.” So I called up, canceled the appointment, and never went back. He called my mother, "Your daughter is not coming." She called me, and I said, "I am never going back. You can't make me. I will never see him again." I never did and I started to heal from that. I can remember, I was listening to a General Conference—and I had graduated from high school—and someone, it was Scott. Is that his name? AK: Oh, yes, what is it? LR: Richard G. Scott. AK: Yes, there you go. LR: I don't know what he said. I don't remember the talk at all. All I remember is I knew as he was talking that I didn't have multiple personalities; that I was okay, I wasn't crazy. I think about my childhood and I don't remember a lot and what I do remember, is that trauma. I saw both of my sisters being abused, and the only reason I know that that satanic cult thing was a sham is because I was a virgin when I got married. Oh my God, it was the most painful experience of my life. In fact, my doctor said to me, "Your wedding night's going to be miserable. You need to do something and you need to stretch your hymen." And I thought, "You want me to do what? I can't do that." Because to me, that was just, that's 19 masturbating. I can't, no, that's bad memories. Oh, I was so embarrassed. “I have to do what?” But I'm so glad I did now because my wedding night would have been awful. So I know for a fact none of that happened. But he had me convinced as a teenager that it all had. Okay, do you have any other questions? I'm sorry. AK: Oh no, you're good. I was curious, how old were you when you heard that Richard G. Scott talk? LR: I was 18 or 19. AK: That was kind of what turned around for you? LR: Yeah. Did you have a question? AK: Well, yeah. I just want make sure we hit what you want to, but I guess my one question is, did your parents ever know that you were told that you had given a baby up for adoption? LR: Oh, yeah. AK: And did they believe it? LR: My dad never did. I remember because I had accused him of being a part of this. My dad's a fanatical religious man, takes his religion very seriously. He said to me with everything he had, "By the power of the priesthood that I hold, I have never been a part of that. Never will." That was weird for me. My dad didn't say that stuff lightly, and so that made me think maybe it wasn't real, but I couldn't believe it as a teenager. 20 AK: I was wondering, growing up, did you have a dream of what you wanted to do after high school, what you wanted to be as you got older? [To Chauney] If you have any questions too, please jump in. I don’t want to take it all. CD: Yes, I did have some that I can't remember. I can't think now, it was in the moment. But if I do, then I will... LR: [To Alyssa] What was your question? AK: Growing up, did you have kind of a dream of what you wanted to do or be after you were out of high school? LR: I thought I wanted to be an elementary school teacher. I can remember I wanted to be a basketball star, I wanted to be the best basketball player ever. I can remember walking to school, and just in my head I'm being interviewed by Oprah about the amazing basketball player I am, because you know, I played. I made the eighth-grade team. In high school, I made the freshman team. I was the best player on my sophomore team. I was the best ball handler. No one could handle the ball as well as I could. And the coach said, "Okay, I know you're not a guard, but I need you to take up the guard position until the guard can actually do it." And it must have been what she needed because she became an amazing guard, and I went back to playing my forward position. But I had surgery on my jaw and could never play again. So I never played my junior and senior year. AK: Just like the jostling was too painful? LR: I was afraid of getting hit. I mean, it still hurts there, I open my mouth and it pops. But I was so afraid of getting hit that I never played ball again, so at least not 21 competitively like that. I'd play church ball. I mean, you know because, it's church ball, it's not as competitive as high school ball. AK: The girls are afraid to touch the ball, right? LR: And I got to coach the Young Women's team that was fun. I had a lot of fun doing that as an older adult. AK: Was your lockjaw caused by something like tetanus or was it more of an emotional? LR: I think it was an emotional trauma thing. I had a growth on my cartilage and that's why I couldn't unlock it. They actually had to go in and shave off that and smooth it down. Soon as they did, I could open it. AK: I’m trying to decide where I want to go from here. So let's see, when you, I'm curious, I have this question that keeps coming to mind, so I hope you're okay with me asking it. LR: Go ahead. AK: I'm curious, what made you decide to serve a mission? LR: Well, it must have been something I thought about. What's funny is I cannot remember starting to date this guy. His name was Mark; I don't remember how we met. He was in my ward, I don't remember at all how we started hanging out. He was 14 years my senior, and we start hanging out, doing things together. I remember the first time I kissed him. I was terrified. I didn't want to, but I felt like, “Well, if I'm going to have a relationship with him I probably should.” I never loved him, but he asked me to marry him, and I said yes and I thought, "Well I didn't really want to go on a mission anyway." I knew that wasn't true. I knew I was 22 lying to myself. But he asked me to marry him, so I'm going to marry him. He was only my second boyfriend. My first boyfriend was when I was 16. I have no memory of anything we did together other than ride around in his car. I liked driving his car. He taught me how to drive in that car. I did my driving test in that car. He planned this really special date. Do you think I remember it? Nope. I remember beforehand. I was staying at my grandmother's. I spent a lot of time with my grandmother. Man, I'm on this roll of going backwards. I would go there and spend summers, as many days as I could. It's the one place I felt safe. We were getting ready to go to a Relief Society function, and I remember she's putting on her pantyhose when someone knocks at the door and I could just see this, “Oh thank God, he's finally here” reaction, but she was playing along. He wanted me to get all dressed up because he was taking me out somewhere nice, but it was a surprise. I don’t remember the date at all. No memory of that. I believe it was my first kiss. I don't remember that. I can only imagine what that poor first boyfriend—his name was Michael—what that poor man went through. I have no idea what I put him through. It must have been strange dating me because I was an emotional wreck as a teenager. Anyway, so Mark was my second boyfriend. He did all the cliché things: took me to Temple Square, asked me to marry him, there, like “Oh, yay.” I didn't love him. It just amazes me, I must have just been wanting an escape, just to be out of my home. It mustn't have been too long after that, he started complaining about this girl. I mean, complaining about her. Well, come to find out, he had sex 23 with her. He finally told me and my first gut reaction was, "Okay, see ya!" But instead, I turned the other cheek and said, "Well, we'll still get married." Took about two weeks for me to just get my head on straight, and somewhere in that time period I had a dream. I think I've shared that with you. I'm kneeling at the altar, and the sealer is looking at me, then looking at him, looking back at me. "What are you doing here? You need to be on a mission." So shortly after that, or right around that time, I broke it off with him, gave him his ring back. He practically threw it at me. He was not happy that I was cutting off the engagement because he had sold his precious bike. That's not my fault you have sex with someone. Then I put everything I had into going on a mission, and I remember I went to the temple February 25th, 1995, and I felt very unworthy. I felt like I had no business serving, you know, being in the temple. I felt very dirty. And I had no one to talk to. But I went anyway. CD: Can I just make an observation? Just in listening, you were still able to escape. You were able to escape from your situation because you thought you were going to get married. But knew that wasn't a good route and that it's potentially a safer route to escape. LR: Oh, going on a mission. CD: That's what I'm feeling and hearing. LR: Yeah and you're probably absolutely right. It was nice. The only problem was there was a guy, a new guy, his name was Lance. I honestly loved that man. I wanted to kiss him. I wanted to make out with him—never did. I remember one night I was taking him home—I don't know if I shared this, I think I remember 24 talking to you about it. I can't remember—sitting in the car. I wanted to kiss him so bad and I could tell he felt the same way. But we both were, "You need to go on your mission and I'm not going to stand in your way." And so we never ever kissed. I can't remember really ever hugging him. Which is kind of sad. But I also think if I'd have kissed him, I probably would have lost my virginity. I would have given myself to him. So we never did, and it's like a regret almost, because when I came home, I didn't feel the same way about him. My mission was a traumatic experience, too. I was called to the Minnesota Minneapolis sub-mission thingy. St. Paul Minneapolis Mission—I can't remember what it is called now. I spent five weeks in the MTC, and the last week I was making robo calls—it was awful, I hated that. I felt very safe in the MTC. It was very structured. Your day was planned from beginning to end and I was surrounded by girls. I felt very safe. I loved it there. As soon as I got out into the mission field in Minnesota, it all fell apart. It didn’t matter what I did, it was wrong. I thought God was not happy with what I was doing, that He was—if I wasn't, it didn't matter. I was doing it wrong. If I was tracting, then we should have been doing something else. If we were doing something else, we should have been tracting. Nothing I did was right. I couldn't talk to my companion about it because she thought I was a schizophrenic. It was the weirdest—she was weird. She left and I got a new companion and my new companion was concerned. She couldn't understand what was going on with me. I tried to talk to her, but I could just feel myself falling further and further, going to this really dark place. I felt dark and I wasn't—I had no light in me. That is the 25 best way of putting it. There was absolutely no light. All I felt and saw was darkness. I was scared, terrified, alone and had no one to talk to. I remember I would kneel on the bathroom floor in my apartment and just say, "God, just let me die. I can't do this anymore. I can't feel like this anymore. I'd rather die. So can you please just make it end?" I was sent to a new—I've never talked about this with someone, I've never shared this part, sorry—I went to a new area and had a newer companion. I honestly, have very little memory of that time. I wasn't there for very long and I must have finally just said, "I can't do this anymore," or the mission president finally said, "You're not okay." And he said to me, "I don't know how to help you. I don't know what to do for you." This was in 1995, so you know, they didn't really know what to do. I never told anybody, "Hey, I was abused as a child." People would ask me what was wrong, and I’d say, "I don't know." I know now, but at the time I didn’t—I didn’t understand. The mission president sent me home and I was a wreck. I was skin and bones. I couldn't eat and I wasn't sleeping. Apparently, I had gotten down to about 120 pounds and for me that's really skinny. I was gaunt—I just didn't look well. When I got home, I started seeing a therapist and started talking. I don't remember what I was talking to him about, but it was the first time I actually was honest and open about my feelings and how scared I was. All I was saying was that I wasn't doing anything right. He put me on medication and I remember my dad saying, "You don't need that. It's not going to help you. You shouldn't take it." "I'm going to take it anyway." 26 And it was the most amazing thing because I could think clearly for the first time in my life. The chaos, the noise in my head was going away. It was an antianxiety medication. It was amazing. It literally quieted my head, and it was great. So I was home for about three months and then went back. I started working again with the South Salt Lake Mission. My companion, she was older. Meaning, she'd been out for a while. I remember one time, I was so distraught I finally called either my mom or my sister or something. And she said to me, "You know what? It's what I'm here for. So if you need something, you can talk to me." "What, you want me to talk to you?" I didn't realize I could talk to my companion. That's when I started being more open with my companion. But I wasn't very open. I was still very guarded and closed, but I actually started. When I was scared, I would talk to her. I remember this one companion I had, she was just this waif, I mean, she was probably 100 pounds soaking wet, tiny. And every time she'd make a mistake, "Oh, I'm so stupid, I'm never going to get the hang of this." Finally, I'd had enough. "Would you knock it off? Seriously, no wonder you can't do it." I mean, I just let her have it. Come to find out, I was the only one who ever said anything and made her think about how she was thinking and saying to herself. By the time she left, there was wasn't anyone better than her. She was amazing. I had no idea that my words had that impact on her. I was just a little upset, you know, "Come on. I'm trying to finish here." I started taking an antidepressant as well, along with my antianxiety med, and my dad really didn't want me to do that. I was talking to my mission president about it, and he said, "What kind of a wife are you going to be if you're so 27 concerned about what your dad thinks? It's okay to not listen to your dad." It still shocks me to think that a priesthood holder told me I didn't have to listen to my dad. No one had ever said that to me before. “Okay.” Then I broke my face while I was on my mission, too. That was fun. So I never went back to Minnesota. I spent the majority of my mission in the Utah, Salt Lake City Mission. Which was a good thing because when I broke my face, I was out in Magna. I had to go home for three weeks so they could repair my orbital bone. AK: How did you do that? LR: I fell off my bike and went over the handlebars. My bike stayed in one place and I did not. I went over. I was wearing a helmet too, which tells you how hard I hit. I must have hit face first. The crash put a big crack in the helmet. So I must have hit with a lot of force because it knocked me out cold. When I came to, the paramedics were there and I was like, "I'm fine. I'll get up. I don't need to go to the hospital." My dad had always made us think about how expensive it was to do certain things like going to the hospital. I said to the paramedics, "I'm sorry, I don't need to go." They said, "Well, would you just humor us and let us practice?" "Oh, okay, sure." That's how they got me to go in the ambulance was letting them practice on me. They put the neck brace on and everything. Well it hurt my jaw. And so I'm like, "Can you not do that?" 28 "Well, promise you won't move your head." "Okay.” Saying to myself, “Oh yeah, don't move my head, okay." I remember sitting in the room, and in comes the mission president and that's when I puked. I must have had a really bad concussion. They sent me for a CT scan. “Okay, you get to go home.” I blew out this bone [points to cheek bone]. “Okay, great, I get to go home for three weeks. Yay.” But I did go back and finish my mission. One of the things I'm the most proud of—that I finished my mission. It gave me a lot of confidence and it’s one of the first things I ever did that was mine. I had a lot of help, but I did the work. You didn't really ask me about the mission part but that’s why I went on a mission. I'm glad I did. I would get wonderful letters from my grandmother, I would write home and complain that I was struggling and she would say to me, "Just buck up. You can." They were sweet, and that woman, that grandmother of mine, is the reason I think I'm sane. Being able to spend time with her—and I've thought of her often over the last year. I feel like she's been walking with me on my journey of healing—almost holding my hand. My grandmother saved my life. I loved driving her around, that was part of my room and board was that I was her chauffeur. I got to drive her every time she had to go to the store. I would drive her little Volkswagen Rabbit. It was a piece of junk, but it got to where we needed to go. AK: I actually want to know more about what your grandma was like. What would you do together? 29 CH: I was just going to say, I think you should tie in a little history of you and your grandma. LR: I will. My grandmother was a beautiful woman. We definitely—you're right. It's probably a really good place to stop. Is there any other questions that you had? AK: I feel like all the questions I have will work really well with the next interview because I already have thoughts how I want to capture this next part of your life as well. LR: Was this part—was I coherent? AK: Oh, yeah. Honestly, this part was great. And I even have some of my questions that actually have to do with—I don’t know if you ever heard of like a father wound impacting the way people look at God. I'm curious about how your relationship with your father and brother impacted your relationship with God? LR: It did immensely. I know that now, because nothing I ever did was right for my dad. At least that's how I felt—that emulated my relationship with my higher power, very much so. I recognize that now. I would hear these stories in church about how God or Jesus would come and visit and sit with these people who had experienced trauma. And I thought, "Well, how come God doesn't help me? Why am I struggling all alone?" And honestly, I thought that my trauma wasn't traumatic enough. It wasn't bad enough. Or maybe I would have—maybe God would have sent someone to help me. I've thought about that a lot lately. What God did was—I don't remember. And knowing how traumatic it was when my brother told me what he had done to me, how it affected me, how I literally just fell apart. Maybe that's how God protected me. I used to think I had to remember 30 it all to heal from it. What I know now is that I have to accept the fact that it happened. I was a victim. I was continually sexually assaulted by my brother— I've never actually said that out loud. I watched him sexually assault my siblings and I had no voice in it at all. It's kind of bizarre just saying that. Why is that? Why do I feel lighter just saying that? I don’t understand. AK: Speaking truth, maybe? LR: Maybe. AK: Being able to admit what happened and finally let it go? LR: I was talking to my sister about this last night. I've always been afraid that if anyone knew what had happened to me. That I wouldn't be believed—I would be shunned. I would lose any friendships that I had and I would literally be alone. Everyone would leave me. I hung onto that and it was honestly one of my biggest fears for doing this. I didn't want either one of you to look at me differently. Part 2: 17 September 2021 AK: Today is September 17th, 2021. We are doing part two of Lorrie Rand's interview. My name is Alyssa Kammerman, and on the camera with me is Alexis Stokes. Last time we spoke, Lorrie, we left off where you were on your mission. So you talked about how you were struggling with anxiety and depression on your mission and that was the first time you took anxiety medication. You mentioned how quiet everything was. You felt so much better. One thing I wasn't clear on is I know your dad wasn't super supportive of your anxiety medication. Did he make you stop taking it or did you keep taking it? 31 LR: No, he didn't. He never came right out and said, "Don't. You need to stop this." At the time, I'm 21 or 22 years old. So he honestly really can't say anything. But I took what he said and I internalized it a lot. He's my dad. He knows better. I can't remember if I talked about this, but I actually went to my mission president about it. Did I mention this? AK: Yeah, I think so, but go ahead and tell the story again. LR: I went to him about it and because they wanted to add a second medication—so a depression medication as well. I went to my mission president and he said to me, "You know, it is okay not to listen to your dad. You don't have to do everything he says." And up until that point, I'd never had a priesthood leader tell me I don't have to listen to my dad. I kind of needed that. The way he said it was, "What kind of a wife are you going to be?” And I think about that now and go, “Geez. So I'm just transferring one allegiance to another? Okay.” But the words helped me and they were what I needed to hear at the time. And it’s only the older me that looks at that and goes, “Geez.” So I started taking, I think it was Zoloft. The funny thing is I can't remember what the antianxiety med was, to be honest. But I took that until I got married and got pregnant with Nute. So I was on it for quite some time. AK: What was the thinking around—like how did people see mental health at that time? Was it as accepted as it is now? LR: No, and especially for some reason in the church at the time. This is through my own auspices, my own lens, so I have no idea what it really was like. But in my family, it was the priesthood that would help you with everything. You don't need 32 medication to get through your mental illness. You just need to rely on the Lord. I know I say that with a lot of contempt but it is here for a reason. I think of how much that medication helped me and I wonder how much it would have helped my dad if he'd have used it? But he refused to even acknowledge that it would be helpful. Which is ironic because medication saved his life when he got cancer. I guess it was a pick and choose with mental health. This was also the era that he grew up in, too. He was a World War II baby. So mental health, it was just, you know, “Suck it up, and get over it.” He was told that time and time again. AK: Speaking of your dad's cancer, you mentioned that he'd had cancer when you were younger. Did he recover from this? LR: Yeah, he's been cancer free. That was when I was 12. So that was in 1986. So he's been cancer free since then. He had Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. He thinks it was from the chemicals when they would clean the printing presses. He was a printer. The printing presses back in the old days, when they actually printed things. The chemicals that they would use to put on the printer and to clean it. He wouldn't wear gloves when he cleaned the printing presses. He refused to wear gloves and he paid for it. AK: That is super interesting. You know that's one thing we didn't cover last time, too, is what your parents did for a living. Do you want to talk about that for a minute? LR: My mother, was an LPN, licensed practical nurse. She never finished her degree, let me put it like that, but she worked in a doctor's office until she met my dad and then basically got pregnant quickly after they got married. My dad, when I was in the picture, was a printer. He worked for the state print shop and I don't 33 remember how long he did that for. But he did a couple of odd jobs and weird things like driving a big semi-truck for like six months. That didn't last very long. But his career's always been that of printing in one way or another. I don't think he really enjoyed it. It was just a way to pay the bills and he was good at it. So that's what my dad did. My mother had odd jobs. I know she worked at IHC. She worked for an InstaCare in Rose Park for a long time as their admin insurance person. Then she worked at LDS Hospital until she retired. I worked at LDS hospital, too. And then we always seemed to have a cleaning job of one kind or another. I remember when I was eight years old—that's when I could start helping clean Chuck-a-Rama. We cleaned Chuck-a-Rama on 4th South and 7th East. I know we did that long before I was born because my brother—on the day I was born, which was his birthday also—had to go and clean Chuck-a-Rama on his own because my mom was in the hospital. My dad was there. I was born at seven o'clock in the morning, so he had to go take care of that. I was a great birthday present for him. So we did that for years. But, you know, I'm eight years old, making five dollars a week. I don't know how many eight-year old back in 1980 made five dollars a week. So I learned the value of hard work and money. I thought it was if I didn't go, I didn't get paid. So I went, "I don't want to go to today." "Okay, fine, you won't get paid." "Oh, crumb. Fine." 34 So I'd crawl out of bed. I remember one night—it's funny what comes to your mind—because we lived right across the street from Liberty Park, there was this huge accident almost in front of our house across the street, and it sounded like there were fire, weapons, weapons fire going off. It turns out that it was a police chase had ended right there in front of our house. The guy had rammed into the back of a police car and he had live ammunition in the back. The ammunition exploded, it literally caught on fire. That’s what was going on and I stayed up and I watched as this whole thing unfolded out there. So when four o'clock in the morning comes around, I hadn't gone to sleep yet. “I'm not going, I need to sleep.” So I literally would get up at 4:00, go clean Chuck-a-Rama, come home, have breakfast and go to school. AK: How long did you do that for? LR: I think until…you know, I have no idea. I honestly have no idea. I know in high school, when I was really struggling, my dad got another cleaning job so that I'd have employment and I went and helped him. We cleaned a dental office. And I did that all through my junior and senior year and made really good money for— almost better money than I made at Smith’s. My first real job was at Smith’s as a bagger. I made better money with my dad and I did that until I graduated from high school. AK: It sounds like you were allowed to keep some of the money at least, or all of it? LR: Oh yeah. He would pay me. I don't remember how much he paid me. I just know it was enough that I could buy my own clothes, because I did half the work. AK: So they would pay him and then he would pay you? 35 LR: Yeah. AK: That's really cool. So your mom, did she work all of your growing up years? LR: I do not remember my mother ever being home. AK: Okay. LR: Maybe she might have been, but I don't recall her ever being home. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to stay at home with my kids was because I didn't have that growing up. I didn't know what that was like. AK: So going back to your mission, you'd also mentioned how your grandma had had such an impact on your life growing up. You said that she literally kept you alive and pulled you through your mission. I'd like to know a little bit more about your grandma in general. LR: My grandmother, I really didn't know her until I was a teenager. She didn't like my dad. She didn't like the way he treated my mom. And so unbeknownst to me, she kind of kept away because I don't think she knew how to interact in a kind way. So she just stayed away. I do remember her coming over at times and spending Christmas with us, Sunday dinners. She would always be there. She made the most amazing monkey bread, she called it. I still remember pulling the bread. It’s like those pull apart buns. Oh my gosh, I watched her make homemade chicken noodle soup. She'd make the homemade noodles. I remember when I was a little girl, I was over one weekend, just me. I don't remember why. I was making cookies, but she goes, "Here you go. You can make them all by yourself." "Okay, Grandma. Cool." 36 I didn't know how to read a recipe, and I didn't read it. I just started at the top and I added all the ingredients as it said one thing, not once reading the instructions. So she comes in, "What are you doing?" "Oh, I'm making cookies, grandma." "Did you read the recipe?" "Was I supposed to?" I don't remember her getting angry. I just remember her kind of, "Okay, this time, read the recipe and start again." "Oh, we can't use it..." "No, you can't." "Okay, Grandma." So I started again. I don't even remember if they turned out or not. I remember the way she talked to me, the kindness. Even if she was angry, it didn't come across as anger. I was accustomed to the anger that I had always seen in my dad. I didn't feel that way with her. I remember one time she said to me, "Well, you know how I am." And I realized, "I don't, grandma." Then, I started asking her questions and I realized that was my first time that I actually did a very informal oral history interview. It was with my grandmother asking her about her early childhood and where she grew up. She didn't talk too much about it because she had a really hard childhood. She grew up in Copperton—the mines there in Bingham—the Bingham mine. Her mother was a midwife. I don't know what her father did, but he was mean. And although she never actually talked about how mean he was, my mother would tell me the things that her father would do if he didn't like the way she was acting. And I just thought, “Dear, 37 God.” It occurred to me as I was coming in today, that what I'm doing is actually healing not only for me, but for my mother and my grandmother. That this isn't just for me, it's for them, too, because they've never told their story. No one ever listened. So in a way, I'm breaking the cycle. There are two other memories that are very vivid for me. I used to spend weekends there when I was a teenager. It was the one place I knew I was safe. And I was dating—I don't think I said this story—I was dating this kid in high school, my first real boyfriend. I was spending the weekend at my grandma's and she said, "Okay, we got to get ready and go to this relief society function." "Okay, Grandma." So I'm getting all dressed up and she's getting dressed up. I remember she was putting on her pantyhose and just kept waiting, looking at the door. Finally, there was a knock at the door. "Oh, thank goodness they're here." She stops what she's doing, gets up and there's Michael. What the hell's going on? Well, it was like this huge surprise and she was in on it. She was actually getting dressed for no reason, just so that I thought we were going somewhere so that I would get dressed. I don't remember that date. I don't remember a thing about it. I believe it was my first kiss. I have no idea if it was. It's all the way over there. So it was just humorous. I laugh at that now. I remember what happened in her home, but everything after that, until I got back from my date, I don't remember. It kind of makes me wonder what happened. I've no idea. 38 She was a quilter. Well, she crocheted. I learned to crochet from her. She taught me how to the do it longhand without a crochet hook. But anyway, one day she goes, "Hey, I'm making this quilt for my downstairs neighbor. Why don't you help me?" So we tied it. It was a tie quilt and it was a beautiful purple. And she put lace around it. They were having a baby. I think it was the next time I was there. She said, "Hey, you remember that quilt I made with you?" "Yeah, Grandma, I remember." "Well, I couldn't give it away. So when you have your first child, it's yours." "Oh, Grandma." I can't wait. I'm so excited. So, I'm going to kind of jump ahead a little bit, when I started dating my husband—the man I married, because he's not my husband anymore. Unbeknownst to me at the time, we were related through marriage. So his mother's sister married my grandmother's brother. Not a very nice guy. She wasn't a great person, but, you know, I didn't really understand that at the time. It was kind of funny because his family knew. They called her Aunt Mertie. “Like you know my grandmother? This is weird.” And they remember her as being this spontaneous, you know, spry, happy. “Are we talking about the same woman?” She never allowed me to see that side of her. And I'm not sure why. Not until the very end of her life. I know I'm jumping around a little bit. The day of my wedding, I was convinced my grandmother wasn't going to be there because I 39 knew she wasn't feeling well. And what's amazing is about halfway through the reception, my grandmother walks in. I went up and asked her, "Grandma, why are you here? You don't feel well." And she hit me. "Do you think I would miss this?" "Yes, Grandma. I didn't think you'd be here." "I wouldn't miss this for the world." "Okay, Grandma." My little sister got a four-generation picture with her. It ended up being this beautiful moment and almost one month later. I had the privilege of being at her bedside when she died. Watching—she was surrounded by her children—and they were telling her, "Mama, you can go, it's okay." I took the day off of work, I just said, "I'm leaving, I can't be here at work, I need to go be with my grandma." I got to watch that and be a part of that movement when she died. And when we went to her home, I said to her son, my uncle, "There's only one thing I want, uncle, and that's this quilt I made with her." "Oh, is it the purple quilt?" "Yeah." "Santo! That quilt I gave you. Give it back, it's not yours." Didn't even question it. He just handed it over to me. A year later, I got to wrap my child in it. So that's kind of full circle, the life of my grandmother and how important—she's almost more important to me now that she's not here, which is weird. That’s my grandmother. 40 AK: That's beautiful. Tell me a little bit about struggling on your mission. You said that she would write you and help you. LR: She would just put me in my place. She would just say, "Oh, buck up, you're fine. You're there because you want to be, now do the work." “Okay, Grandma.” AK: A little bit of tough love. LR: Oh, yeah, but it wasn't demeaning. It was always so just, “I know you can do this.” I wasn't honest with anyone about what I was really feeling. I didn't know how to be. I was alone. I have never felt so alone as I did on my mission, before I was sent home. I think I mentioned before, just on my knees, “Just God, just take me. I can't do this anymore. I can't live another moment like this.” But I think of how much I grew and gained from that experience, now I'm grateful for it. So, that's what she did, she just put me in my place. “Get over yourself. You can do this.” AK: Some good old fashioned. Pull yourself up. LR: In the grandmother sort of way. AK: You're right. So you mentioned that you didn't know her as well as a child. What was the turning point for you as a teenager? Like why did you decide to start going over to her house? LR: I don't remember. I honestly could not tell you. I think it was more of, “I want to spend alone time with her. I don't want to share her with my siblings.” And so, I would ask my grandmother, “Hey, can I come over?” Then, it got to the point where she was struggling and I was her chauffeur. I'd go over and I'd help her 41 get places. I was just really close with her, and the more time I spent, the more I wanted to spend with her—not like we did anything amazing, I just literally stayed in her house. I remember watching the—this is how different she was from my dad—I wanted to watch the Academy Awards this one year and Jon Bon Jovi—this was way back when—was doing the song from Young Gun's. And she didn't get angry at me. She just went, "Okay, yeah, you can watch that." And I was terrified. I thought to myself, “I can't turn it up. I got to keep it down.” "You can turn it up." "I can?" "Yeah, it's fine. I don't get it, but yeah." "Okay, you're not going to yell at me?" It was so different from what I was used to. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could be myself. There wasn't this constant worry about, “Don't say the wrong thing, and don’t do the wrong thing.” This constant tenseness of, “Okay, if I don't want to be hurt again…” I didn't have any of that with my grandmother. I felt very safe and didn't ever want to leave. But, eventually, I had to go back home and do my thing. AK: Was your grandfather, her husband, was he still alive? LR: No. I never knew him and I'm okay with that. He was a bastard. He was not a nice man. Which kind of gives you an idea of the men she was accustomed to being around. He was not a nice man and I'm going to leave it at that. AK: Yeah. That's okay. [To Alexis] Alexis, do you have any questions at all? 42 AS: I'm good. AK: [To Lorrie] You mentioned off camera when we were talking the other day about how you'd had a period in your life where you struggled with anorexia. Do you want to talk about that? LR: Oh God, no. AK: You don't have it if you don't want to. LR: It's really silly. It was just something I could control. It was after I had jaw surgery— I don't know if I mentioned this before. This is how little I remember. So I couldn't really eat anyway. But then I had that interaction with my brother and I literally just…The only way I can equate it that makes any sense is it's like—I don't know if I said this before or not—but it was as though I was being raped all, you know, not all over again because I never was. But I felt that dirty and a part of me just broke. I couldn't connect anymore. I didn't know what to do. So I went to the one thing I knew I could control, and that was food. My mom was always dieting. And so, “Okay, as long as I eat three meals, no one will ever know anything.” And so I ate three meals, not very big meals, but I ate three meals a day. It wasn't until my acapella teacher, called me out and said, "It's going to be busy next year. You have to have energy. You can't do it if you're going to be this skinny." As though she knew, and I fell apart. “Oh my God. People know.” That was my biggest fear that people would know what had happened because I didn't really know what had happened. I still don't. I don't have any memories. It still took a couple of weeks and my sister stopped giving me hugs, 43 she said, "I can't hug you, it's too gross." She could feel my ribs but all I could see was what was wrong. I couldn't see how thin I really was. All I could see was all the spots on my body where there was more fat. So I had to keep going. It was about halfway through my senior year that I started trying to gain weight. Gosh, that was so hard. It took me until the end of my senior year to actually start gaining weight. But it never got to the point where I had to be hospitalized. And for that, I'm grateful. But it's always been a fear and a part of me always liked it when I was heavier because I knew I was safe. Which sounds really silly. But anyway, that was it. I understand it now. At the time, I didn't know why I was doing it, but I knew that I had something I could control. It was almost like a sanity thing. “I can control this so I'm okay.” AK: Makes me wonder if that's why your mom had so many diets. That was kind of her version of that. LR: I think it had more to do with the way my dad saw her. Wanting to, trying to be the—I know now that my mother is an abused and battered wife. I never saw my father physically hit her and I don't know if he ever did. Sometimes words are more hurtful and painful than any fist. I was having a conversation with my aunt last night and she said that before my mother met my dad, my mother took care of herself, dressed beautifully, always wore makeup, and within about a year all of that was gone. “Well, he doesn't like me to do that. He doesn't like me to wear makeup.” The things you don't realize until you're older. 44 AK: Yeah, that’s so true. You mentioned last time we interviewed you that you were really proud that you had finished your mission and you felt like that was the first thing that was truly yours. LR: It was. It was all me. I mean, not literally. I realize how much I relied upon my companions. And I think my sister's letters and my grandmother's letters, they helped. But I just had this drive. “I will finish this no matter what. I'm going to finish my mission.” And there was this sense of accomplishment when I did. “Look at that, I did it.” And I've never—even when I stopped being active in the LDS church, I was never ever ashamed to talk about my mission because it was mine. I had accomplished it. I had done it and I'm proud of that. I’m proud of what I accomplished there and what that meant for me. AK: Do you feel like that empowered you to start your healing journey? LR: You know, it probably did. It gave me some courage. Actually after—so when I got home, I started going to school. I was going to Salt Lake Community College at the South High campus. So I don't know if you're familiar with Salt Lake, but South High School is where the Salt Lake City campus is of Salt Lake Community College. It's right there on 21st South and State Street. That was South High. They closed it my freshman year of high school and transferred all the different students between the Highland, East, and West. That was fun. So I remember that year my oldest, my older brother, graduated from high school and they did this big thing because there was a student graduating from South High. 45 He had spent his entire high school at South High and then had to graduate from East, but he considered himself a South High student. After my mission, I got into Salt Lake Community College. That's where I met my husband, was in a dance class, of all things. I wanted to learn how to ballroom dance. For some reason I love dance. I am terrible at it, but I love to watch it. He was the best dancer. I wanted an A in the class, and so I said, "Hey, will you be my partner?" I remember the first time he asked me out. My thought was, "What the hell? I'm not going to marry him." I probably should have listened to that, but, you know, I didn't. So that was my initial instinct. But we went on our first date, he took me to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, which is amazing. It was so powerful and I loved it. We just hung out. I remember I just wanted to be around him. I don't know why. I don't know why he's the first man I ever really wanted to be around and that I felt comfortable around. That’s saying something. About the middle of May he said, "I've got to go back to Ohio to do some training, Airmen Leadership School." I don't know what the army equivalent is, but it helped him get his Staff Sergeant rank, or his NCO rank. He had to do this class. He said, "Because I'm going to go. It would be great, if you could come back for the graduation." And I go, "Okay, I'll see what I can do." Well, my dad was not happy that I was going, he was not happy that I was even contemplating doing this. "You should spend that money and buy new tires for your car." "No, Dad, I want to go." First time I ever said no to my dad, to his face. I'm still living at home. 46 “I'm 23 years old. I'm going to do what I want, Dad. I'm going.” So I flew out with his mom. This woman, I don't even know. By this point, Lee and I had maybe two or three formal dates, but we have spent a lot of time together. So I'm thinking about this now going, “Oh, my gosh, I was so young.” So we get into the airport and we landed at midnight. The next day is June 25th— have you heard this before? AK: No, actually I haven't. LR: I'm just so tired and I had found this card and I'm very, “All I want to do is get married in the temple” and, you know, all the things you're supposed to do after you get off a mission. I knew he wasn't active in the church. So I wasn't really worried that he would ask me to marry him. But I'd written this— I had this card and I wanted to give it to him. And it was just a, you know, “I might be falling in love with you sort of thing.” We get to the Rickenbacker Air Force Base and he meets us at the guard gate and gets us on base and we're staying in the barracks there. I don't know how he pulled that off. We're two civilians and we're staying at the barracks on Rickenbacker Air Force Base. We get to our room and he's walking away and I'm like, "Here, I wanted to give this to you." And I had a little teddy bear, too, that I gave to him. "Oh, well, hey, since you're doing this, I have something for you, too." And I saw the ring, like, “Oh, shit.” I didn't actually say that. “Oh, he's going to ask me to marry him. What am I going to do? I can't believe this.” 47 And he didn't get down on one knee or anything. He just pulled out the ring and went, "Will you marry me?" I can't remember exactly how he said it. And I just stood there. "Oh, I don't know, I don't know how to answer this." And then he said, "I want this to be forever. I don't want this to just be for now." "Well in that case, sure, I'll marry you." And then it occurred to me, I said, "We've never kissed." "Oh well we can take care of that." You know, he was very, “That's no big deal.” So we had our first kiss standing in the hallway of the of the airmen barracks at Rickenbacker Air Force Base. Walked back into the room and his mom knows what's going to happen because he had asked for the money to buy the ring. So she already knew it was coming. But I couldn't say a word to her. I got into a bed and the ring didn't fit. He had no way of asking me what my ring size was. So that was that. But again, it was the first time I ever said no to my dad. I think about it now—man, that was the first time I ever really traveled on my own because I wanted to. I saw a side of life in the military that had never occurred to me. I still had no clue what I was marrying into. That wouldn't become real until 9/11. But I just thought it was cool. “Oh, I'm marrying a guy in the Air Force. This is cool.” And actually, that day, the day he got engaged, he graduated from Airman Leadership School and received his E-4 rank, all in one day. It's a busy 48 day for a guy. I had something to do with that. That was the story of my engagement. I don't even remember what the question was. But the whole point of it was that knowing I could say no to my dad, and the first time I did, was when I got engaged to my husband. AK: I like that. The original question was how you feel like your mission kind of empowered you. So what year did you start school then? LR: I started college in 1992, the year I graduated from high school. AK: And then the year you got engaged? LR: We got engaged in 1997. July 25th, 1997. We were married September 25, 1997. We did not wait long. It was an interesting time because I didn't really understand what I was feeling, and I can look back now and honestly, I get it now. But at the time I didn't, I had never really experienced sexual feelings before in that way. I didn't understand. “Am I supposed to be feeling this? I don't want to.” I had no clue. I couldn't talk to my mom about it. I had no idea what sex was going to be like—I know I already talked about this, but I always worried, “Am I a virgin? Was I raped?” I had no idea. But I found out very quickly that I was a virgin. If I didn't prepare for my wedding night, it would be a horrific, traumatic experience. So I prepared for my wedding night. I'm glad I did now, because I can only imagine what it would have been like if I wasn't prepared. It’s interesting now to look back because I was so terrified and afraid, but I wasn't afraid around him, and I don't understand why. He made me feel safe and protected. 49 One night I was exhausted and I should have gone home long before. But I just wanted to hang out with him. So, he said, "You could spend the night here." I'm like, "Okay." So I was going to sleep on the couch in their family room, and I realized, “I can't, I'm too exposed. I don't want to get hurt.” So I go down to his bedroom and he goes, "Fine, you can have my bed and I'll sleep on the cot over here." "Okay?" And so we made that arrangement. And even then, I'm like, "I can't, I'm terrified. Can you just get in the bed with me?" I knew what I wanted. Nothing. I just wanted him to be close. I look back now and think, oh, I was, I didn't understand what I was doing to him. You know, we're sleeping in the same bed. We have this sexual attraction that I didn't understand at the time. He just laid there and held me all night long. I woke up the next morning and, "Okay, cool, I can go back and do what I need to do." So he's not a bad guy. He's just— Anyway. I don't remember the question, what was the question? I feel like I'm rambling, I apologize. AK: No, not at all. This is really good because you're processing through your journey to even understanding sexual feelings. LR: Oh, yeah. I can tell you stories, but I don't know how much I want to share. Because it's so weird to me having a moment with him where I literally was…Yeah, I don't know if I can talk about it. So anyway, it was just bizarre having sexual feelings. They'd always been dark. I knew what my brother was doing was wrong. I just knew it. But that's the only sex I understood, it's the only 50 love I understood. Because my dad had this weird…But my dad never abused me in that way. That's not my point. I did not know the difference between sex and love. To me, they were synonymous, they went together. I honestly thought once I had sex, really had sex, it would all just make sense. Doesn't work that way, but I honestly felt that way. So, yeah, three months later we got married. Not really enough time, but I always, I was so uncertain of myself then. I didn't have to marry him, but I felt like I did. There was this moment where he was trying to get his temple recommend and his bishop was super excited. "Yes. You're doing this. Good for you." And his dad got his temple recommend, something that he'd never had since he got married. For me, it was like, "Look what I'm doing." The ego kind of gets a little big. I was terrified that the stake president wouldn't sign it. And what's funny is after his meeting with Lee, he asked me to come in and he says, "You know, three months is not long enough and I had no intention of signing this. When he walked in this room, I feel like I have to sign it." Lee's really good at manipulating and whatnot. But I honestly think my higher power perhaps knew I needed to get married. I needed to be, because I don't know what I would have done otherwise. So we got married. I remember after the wedding we went to our apartment and I literally looked at him and said, "Let's just get this over with." “Well, that is so sweet.” “Let's just get it over with.” 51 And it was over and I'm just, "That's it? Okay." My sister made fun of me the rest of the night when people would ask me, "Where you going on your honeymoon?" "She's already had her honeymoon." "Can you be quiet, please? I don't need the whole world to know that I've had sex." But she was upset that I hadn't shared it with her first. But the reception was just a whirlwind. The worst part was the honeymoon because he kept wanting to have sex. And I felt so dirty because I wanted to have sex, because now it's like, “Wow, this is kind of fun. These are really cool feelings.” I couldn't talk to him about it. I just sat in this shame, in this filth and I would literally sit and hug myself. “Don't touch me.” But I didn't know how to tell him that. So we kept having sex and I kept feeling awful and dirty. I think about it now and oh, my gosh, what I didn't understand at the time. I feel a lot of sympathy and compassion for that woman and my heart aches because she had no one to talk to and Lee didn't really comprehend. Because I never really, at that point, told him what I been through. And his method of helping me get through it was to reenact the experiences that I had had with my perpetrator. I think now and I think that was probably the worst thing we could have done. I wish I'd have said no, but I didn't know how. AK: Was he thinking it would help because it was him as opposed to your perpetrator? 52 LR: Yeah, and in my own mind I think, "My God, are you a pervert, too?" I don't know what his thinking was. This is the way I was processing it and I put a lot on him. I didn't ever want to see a therapist again after the experience I had with Dr. Gant. And so I told him, "You're my therapist." Can you imagine putting that on your husband? "You're my therapist. I'm going to talk to you about all of this." Well, I'm asking an awful lot of a human being who has no idea how to process and how to help someone. It was not in his wheelhouse, but I just put that on him and I recognize that now, how unfair that was of me. But I didn't know what else to do. It was a way of avoiding, too. If I can avoid what's really going on, it'll go away, right? There were a lot of red flags when I was dating him. He didn't know how to handle money. He had a couple of judgments against him. And we were paying on one of those through our first year of marriage. He was a lot like my dad, although you tell him that, he will deny it wholeheartedly. Very controlling and manipulating. He had a little bit of my perpetrator in him. None of this I knew at the time. He was just… I felt safe around him, so I married him. AK: Familiar, maybe? LR: Yeah, and then I got pregnant! Anyway, sorry, you were going to ask a question. AK: Oh, you're good. I'm curious whether or not your parents ever talked to you about sex. LR: No. AK: And if so how did they... 53 LR: No. AK: Not even when you were engaged or anything? LR: No, I do not remember a conversation with my mother about, “This is what sex is. This is what it will feel like. This is what you need to be prepared for.” And if she did, I have no memory of it. I learned more about sex on my wedding night and the following honeymoon than I have ever learned previously. I had some conversations with my sister. But even they were—we had a hard time talking about sex with each other. I mean, now, we don't. We have no problem, talking with each other and, "Oh this was terrible." Or, "We had a hard time with this" or, "My poor body's getting old," you know. We can do that now. But at the time, we were never taught how to talk with each other. We were taught to avoid each other and not acknowledge the pain that we had all shared. That didn't come until much later. AK: I don't want to jump ahead too much. What started to change that for you, where you started to become more okay with your sexuality and even enjoy it? LR: That's a really good question. AK: I'm only asking because I feel like it's pertinent to your, to your project. LR: This is going to sound really terrible—not until I actually had other experiences besides my husband, and I can explain that more when we get to that part of my life. Because then I saw, “Oh, there are more? What?” I'll explain that later. It was a lot different, it was not until 10 years after. Yeah, 8 to 10 years after we first got married and then slowly until the end of my marriage, I finally said no. First time I 54 ever told him no. And that took everything I had. So if you think about it, that's 21 years. AK: So you got married in September 1997, and then I know in 1999 was when the Columbine shooting and you've been asking everyone about their memories of that. LR: I was in Mississippi. At that moment, we were isolated. We were on Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So I'm going to back up just a little bit because during that time, Nute, was born. We had no money. We were poor. I was working full-time. When we got married, he did not have a job—another red flag. He had an opportunity to go to Peru with his unit, the 109th ground radio thing, and do some work on the war on drugs or whatever in Peru. And I said, "You should go. We need the money, go." And I remember as he was getting ready to go, I just knew, I knew I was pregnant. I hadn't taken a test. I just knew and I didn't tell him. In fact, he didn't find out until I took a test. I don't remember if I called him or wrote him a letter. "By the way, I'm pregnant." He was a little upset. "Well, I didn't really know." In fact, because we were both active in the church at the time, I wouldn't let our home teachers give me a blessing because I didn't want them to say anything. I was really kind of, “Okay, God knows everything, so I can't, I'm not going to. I need him to go. He needs to get a job.” And that was in March or April? March of 1998? Probably April when I found out. Fast forward to 55 November 24th, and Natalie came into this world and the best part was I knew my grandmother was with me. I knew she was in that room with me as Nute was born. I witnessed something. I watched as Lee picked up Nute and just started walking with her. Like, "Oh, well, that's kind of cool." He was just going back and forth, looking down at his child. "Okay, maybe I did marry the right guy." You know, he was great with them as kids. I mean, as babies, you know, because I did all the work. That sounds really terrible. He did some. He did a little bit. But it was after he got back from Peru that he finally got a job which was really nice because I couldn't work. I had to quit work a few months before she was born because I had to have my appendix out. We only had his income, which was really nice. And then he changed units literally right around the time Natalie was born. That's why we were at Keesler Air Force Base because he was learning his new trade. So basically, it's a new MOS—that's not what it's called in the Air Force. I couldn't tell you what it's called in the Air Force. So I honestly really don't remember much about Columbine. I just thought it was strange. My brother lived in Aurora, Colorado, not far from that. And so I thought for a minute, "I hope they're okay." Not that I was close with him, but I thought about him. And that was the extent of my thought because I only had Natalie and I wasn't thinking about my kids in school. I was just trying to get through Keesler, you know, this isolation that is the Air Force and living on base and you're surrounded by the military. I didn’t want this life, but I married into it, I'm stuck with this. But it's the first time Lee and I were ever truly alone. When we started, we had this 56 little plan. We learned how to work together and I loved being a mom. I loved taking care of Nute and watching her. I didn't have to work until we came back to Utah and moved into a place in Murray. We got an apartment there and I started working at Cottonwood Hospital. I worked in the OB—Labor and Delivery Department and I loved it. I loved that job. It was hard work, but it was fun. I worked nights and Lee worked during the day and Nute was just taken care of, and I can remember times I'd be driving home and have no memory of how I got home, I was so tired. At that point, I got the job and then we moved to North Salt Lake to live with his parents so that we could buy our home in Layton. We bought the property and we had to wait for it to be built. In 2000, we moved in with his parents and I'm still working at Cottonwood Hospital. So I'm driving from North Salt Lake to Cottonwood Hospital in Murray. Not really thinking anything about the drive because I loved it. It was fun. And then we moved into our home. I should tell you this because it's relevant to Nute's interview. Natalie, when she was six months old, had her first fainting spell. I was giving her some antibiotics and I didn't know if she'd swallowed it or if it went down her windpipe. She cried and held her breath till she passed out and eventually she'd start breathing. It scared the crap out of me. I called 911. I'm at Keesler Air Force Base. I am alone. They take me to the hospital, the SP show up. And I was like, "I think she's okay now.” “Let's just take her in just be on the safe side." I'm like, "Well okay. Can you get a hold of my husband for me?" 57 "Sure. Where is he?" "I don't know." He'd just changed schools. So somehow, he managed to meet us at the hospital and we have no idea what's wrong with her. She just had a fainting spell. Well, the fainting spells never stopped. When she was angry or scared or hurt, she would literally cry so hard she couldn't breathe and she'd pass out. It was a scary thing to watch. She would completely go limp and if she was in normal underwear, she'd pee her pants, because that's what happens when you faint. And so if she was sitting on your lap and she had a fainting spell, you had to go change your pants. So we're building our house. We're actually doing some of the sweat equity as we were building and we're putting in the tile floor. And Nute is there wandering around the house. She was coming up the stairs and was eating some Skittles. She hurt herself coming up the stairs and started going through this phase of crying. We didn't think anything of it because we're accustomed to it. So we're just busy working and after about 30 seconds, Lee and I both kind of looked at each other. She hadn't started breathing yet. Something's not right. So we literally get up. "What's wrong with Nute?" Lee’s sister picks her up, make sure her airways open, but she still hasn't started breathing and, and then all of a sudden, completely limp, and she starts breathing. She'd never done that. So we call an ambulance. At the time, we had no house number. All we have is a lot number. And we're like "We don't have an 58 address." But they get to the house, they show up and they check her, make sure she's okay. “Follow up with your doctor. But right now it looks like everything's okay.” “Well, that's good.” Nothing. We got her all the tests and there was nothing wrong with her. It was probably just something that she got used to doing for attention. That was a fun thing to break, let me tell you. The doc finally said, "Just let her fall. When she starts doing that, don't coddle her. Don't give her attention. Just let her fall." "Okay" And as her parents, we could do that. No one else was able to because it's a scary thing to watch. It wasn't until Nute was going to school that we finally said, “Do you really want to do this in front of your peers because you're going pee your pants.” Then it's like this light went off. Honestly, there are still times to this day when he's really emotional. He has to think about taking a breath. But it doesn't happen often because he doesn't really get that emotional anymore. AK: No, it's so interesting, because actually my little sister used to do that. LR: Yeah, it's a kind of a fascinating little story thing. Anyway, I apologize. So that's where we were at during Columbine. In 2000, in September of 2000, we moved into our home in Layton and we were thinking about having another child. It was in the back of our heads and we were just like, "Well, let's just see what happens." 59 I discovered I was pregnant around Thanksgiving of that year and that's when Lee lost his job. I still had my job, but he made a lot more money than I did. So I said, "Okay, you got to do something." So he was able to get hired on at L-3 Communications, which was a great job. By March of 2001, I was so sick. I can remember being so sick at work on a Sunday. The nurse, there was a nurse who had this lovely room. The room had to be cleaned, and I just couldn't. I had just finished a room and I needed to sit. She comes in, "This room's dirty." "I'm aware." "It needs to be cleaned." "I know." "When are you going to get to it?" "When I can." "When's that going to be?" "Lady, I'm pregnant. Give me a break!" "Oh, okay. Well, when you can get to it." There were no congratulations from her. You know, “You bitch.” But I had to quit, I was always sick. I couldn't keep anything down. Everything made me nauseous. I could drink water and have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and that was the extent of my intake. We actually decided to take weekly pictures, you know, the progress. I kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller because I couldn't keep anything down. My OB said, "Well, it's a good thing you were heavy to begin with because I'd really be concerned if you weren't." 60 “Okay, thanks for telling me I was fat, I appreciate it.” But it ended up that was a blessing that I had the weight to lose because I couldn't keep anything down. It wasn't until about my eighth month that I started to get into an understanding what I really could eat and I started gaining weight. But overall, in my pregnancy with Ryan, I lost 11 pounds. I didn't gain one pound. So I was miserable and I never went back to work after he was born. Ryan was born July 30, 2001. That was an interesting day. I remembered nesting the day before, hardcore. I had to get everything done. We went to Lee’s parent’s house for dinner and I remember just feeling the need to constantly be moving. I couldn't sit still. When we got home that night, Lee said, "Hey, look, let's have sex tonight because who knows when we're going to be able do it again." "Okay, sure." Three hours later, my water broke. It was like it was a dream. Those dreams you have where you're wetting the bed. And I got up, I'm like, "Did I pee the bed? No, that's not…" But there was so much fluid I'm like "No, there's…. Wait, what happened?" "Uh, Sweetie? I think your water broke." "Oh, okay, well I guess maybe we should go to the hospital then." I didn't know what it was like. Nute was induced so my water had never broken before. So in the middle of the night, we're taken Nute to grandma's house and going to the hospital. By 10:20 that morning, my son came into the world. I didn't get to hold him until—there was meconium in the amniotic fluid. So 61 I didn't get to hold him until after my tubal. One of my—I regret that. And yet, I'm grateful that I did that because I don't know if I could have handled any more kids. It's a mixed bag. But when I finally got to hold him, he was just perfect. Ryan was very different from Nute. Nute is very independent, he has always been stubborn, just truly like his dad. Ryan's more like me, calm and quiet, which sounds really strange, but I'm a quiet person. Ryan was fun, but he terrified me. I don't think I knew how to be a mom to a boy. I was really afraid I was going to hurt him, the way I had been hurt—was one of my biggest fears. And so I was afraid to really interact with him. But of course, I couldn’t talk to anybody about this. I don't know, it was just—he was a blessing. Six weeks later, the world changed, my world completely upended. You don't even have to ask the question about September 11, 2001. I'll just lead into it. I'll just start talking about it. I was into my normal routine, I got up, I got my kids fed and I got my work done. I turn on the television while I folded clothes or whatever I did—it was never something I just did first thing in the morning. I got a phone call from Lee, "You need to turn the news on." "Okay." I turn the news on. “What the hell is going on?” So I don't know how early this was. In my mind, it was like nine o'clock, but if it was nine o'clock my time, then it would have been 11 o'clock New York time. Which means both the towers had already fallen by that time. But both the 62 towers had not fallen by my memory. When I started watching, only one of the towers had been hit. Therefore, it must have been earlier than I thought it was. It's so weird. It's surreal in my head. I can't remember exactly what time frame that was, but I do remember sitting on the couch just, “What the hell is going on?”, “What does this mean?” “What's going to happen?” I packed my children up and left. I had to stop at a gas station and of course it was on. Everyone, everyone, was watching the news that day. It was everywhere I went. I had to stop there and literally said something like, "I can't believe what's happening. What's next?" to the cashier. After that, I remember driving down to my mother-in-law's. The rest of the day, I don't have any memory of. I was terrified. I was scared. I had no idea what was going to happen. But I knew, my life was going to change and that of my children's. I just didn't know how. Lee, when he got off work, he came to his mom's house and he just said, "I'm going to be deployed. Don't know when, but it's going to happen. So we need to start preparing." "Okay, what does that mean? For how long?" "I don't know." "Okay, fine, we'll just figure this out together." Sure enough, by the end of the year, he had orders. I can't remember exactly which of the three deployments was first, but he was deployed to Crete, Cyprus, and the Azores within a two-year period. Actually, yeah, because he joined the unit in 2004. Within a two-year period, he had three deployments. The 63 first deployment was in 2002, the beginning of 2002. It was right around the Olympics and I remember he came home and—sorry, I just had a memory that I don't really like, I apologize—Lee came home on a Saturday. Ryan was sick. He was so sick. I finally took Ryan to urgent care and they said, "We don't like his oxygen levels.” He was barely in low 90s for his oxygen level. “This isn't right. You need to get him up to Primary Children’s Hospital." At the time, I was not equating in my head, Primary Children’s Hospital and Olympics in Salt Lake. It took us what seemed like forever to get up to Primary Children's Hospital because we kept having to go through these checkpoints. "This is so stupid. We need to get our kid to Primary's." The poor kid was so dehydrated and he wouldn't eat. I didn't understand why. They had to finally get a trauma flight nurse to come in and put a line in my son because there just wasn't any veins that we could get to. They had to go through—I can't think of what it's called right now, but it wasn't a typical I.V. I remember just being angry. "You're hurting my child!" Lee had to literally hold me back because I wanted to go over there and just hold Ryan and make him feel better because he was screaming. I was so angry. But he had pneumonia and it was bad. And so we were there for about four hours getting him hydrated and getting antibiotics. That bout with pneumonia wreaked havoc on his lungs. Up until he was going in to junior high, he had to 64 have albuterol treatments. Every once in a while, he would get coughs that just would settle in his lungs. We would do the albuterol treatments and he'd be fine. That's my memory of the Olympics. That's my only memory of the Olympics because we lived in Davis County. I was still reeling from the events of 9/11. I remember I watched it, but it was just so surreal because I didn't know what was going on with my husband. Are you going to be home? Are you going to be gone? What do I need to do? And I felt that way for the next two years, the sense of what the hell is happening. Life revolved around him and I had no voice. I could not say, “I don't want you to go.” because I didn't have a choice. He signed his life away long before we got married and I didn't get a say. He was just gone. The last deployment to the Azores, he dropped me off at his mom's house, and got on a plane. His mom took me to the hospital so I could have my gallbladder out. I had to spend two weeks with her because I couldn't take care of my kids, let alone myself. I didn't hear from him for two weeks. No idea. Are you alive or are you dead? What's going on? I actually went to the base, "Where is my husband? I have not heard anything. I don't know what's going on. Tell me." "Well we don't know." "Bullshit. You don't know. You're just not telling me." I was so mad. I finally got an update. It was a phone call or something saying, "They're fine, they're doing a loop. They haven't been able to land on the Azores yet." 65 Finally, I got a call from Lee after two weeks that, "Okay, we made it, we're on the Azores. It took us forever to get here because of the crosswinds. We could never land. But I'm fine. I'm here." “Okay, cool.” And then they invaded Iraq and the war started. And I'm thinking, "I am all alone. I have two little kids. I know my husband's in the Azores. I know he's not in harm's way. But my gosh, this is freaky. And I have no choice, I have no say. I have to wait till he gets home." But I devised this idea of helping the kids through the deployments. We got this map—and this might have been after he joined the team—but every time he would deploy or go away for training, we would put a little pin with a flag on it. “This is where Dad is.” And so they could have a visual. “Okay, Dad is there.” When he'd come home, the flag would come home and it would be on the map of home. That seemed to help the kids through the deployments, which was nice. I think it was after he joined the team. So that's me jumping ahead a little bit. So because of the events of 9/11, they started standing up these teams called, civil support teams. Every state in the union has one. Some states have two because they're so massive. In 2004, Lee put in and applied to be a part of the team. He applied for AGR, Active Guard Reserve status, which meant he would be active duty. The only upside is we wouldn't have to move. We would be 66 stationed in Utah. So when he got on the team, I just thought, "Well, this is cool for him.” Didn't think about how cool it would be for me and my kids. Their first training was eight weeks long, and he left in November of 2004. Somehow, I had to make this work for Nute—who is a daddy's girl, or was a daddy's girl, I should say—and was upset that he was going to miss her birthday. It was the first birthday he'd ever missed and it was hers, and she was mad. He was gone for two months. Ironically, that training was the longest time he was ever gone. Even his deployments were about seven weeks each. But we didn't know that going in. We were told it could be up to a year. So when he came home early, "Yes! This is cool." So the first three years he was on the team, he was gone more than he was home. He would be gone for a deployment or for training, and then he'd come home for a couple of days or a couple of weeks and then he'd leave again for however long that training was. Then he'd come home and then he'd leave, and then he'd come home. I envied the women who had husbands who were deployed for a year. That would have been simpler, a lot simpler! They were deployed to help with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. That was hard because we could watch the news. I made the mistake of turning the news on Friday morning. It was a Friday morning. So, Hurricane Katrina had just hit and Hurricane Rita was coming in. Same space, same spot, and we had just talked to Dad the night before. Nute asked, "Isn't that where dad is?" 67 "Yeah, but your…"—first time I ever lied to my kids—"your dad's going to be fine." I had no idea if he was going to be fine because they were right in the direct path of Hurricane Rita. I lied to my kids. Thank, God he was okay so it wasn't a lie. But that was a long deployment. I can't remember how long they were gone but it just seemed like forever that he was gone. They went out after Hurricane Ike, in Houston. They went and helped with that. They went to Dallas for the Super Bowl. They went up to Alaska. I mean, they were all over the country. They were training all over the country. There were a couple of real world deployments that really affected him. He never talked about them. He started drinking more and that really started to affect our life together. AK: You said, “Real world deployments.” Where were those to? LR: They were within the state. Well, Katrina was a real-world deployment. Ike was a real-world deployment. But the ones that were within the state, were the ones that actually tested their skills. The one that had the most effect on him, was the rat poisoning of the two little girls in the Layton area, because they didn't know what was killing these girls. They were called to that to help identify what was causing the issues. That had a tremendous impact on him. I could see how he was visibly shaken by it. He never talked about it—that I know of—with anyone. I know how it affected me and I wanted to help him. AK: What was the Dallas Super Bowl? Why'd they go up there for the Super Bowl? LR: Just to help with security. AK: Oh, okay. It wasn't any kind of tragedy. 68 LR: No, they were tasked to do shit like that. Sorry, I'm swearing. They were tasked to do stuff like that all the time. But it was just another reason for them to be gone. “Great. Two more weeks, alright. I don't need you around.” We're getting used to this. I'm a single parent. AK: Before he became an AGR (Active Guard Reserve), I'm curious how the multiple deployments and the uncertainty of when he would return—how that worked with a civilian job. Did he have a civilian job? LR: He did. He was National Guard. He's been National Guard since 1993. So they knew it's part of the contract that they—especially L-3— L-3 hires a lot of military. They know they have to hold their job for the duration of their deployment. So he always had a job to go back to which was nice. Then when he went AGR, he didn't worry about it anymore because his full-time job was his part-time job. There's like a contract or something that have when you are National Guard. AK: Oh I know about it, I just wanted it for the interview. LR: I don't know how it works exactly. I just know that they had to hold his job. So it was always there when he came back and for however long the deployment was because Lee had no control over that. AK: Yeah, and I was curious, if those legal protections were in place at that time. LR: Yeah. AK: Sounds like they were. Interesting. It sounds like he changed units a couple of times, so I just kind of wanted to make sure I understood. When you were first married what... 69 LR: He was in the 109th. I don't know what it's designation was. It was the 109th. And then he joined the 151st Air Refueling Wing and he was in Avionics. Then he joined the 85th Civil Support Team, which was an army unit that was Joint Air Force. The majority of the units were army and they had like four slots that were Air Force. Lee got one of those four slots or five slots, however many. Then when he was finally, "kicked out" of the unit after ten years, he joined, he went back to the 151st and was in Logistics, I think. This is the part of our marriage where I didn't really care anymore about what he was doing. It was after my stroke. After we got divorced, he was kicked out of that and put to Supply for the remainder of his career, which wasn't much longer. He just retired in June of this year. June 30, 2021 was his retirement date. AK: What did life look like for you guys pre-2001, how often was he training? LR: Just the normal two weeks out of the year, every weekend and month. It was those two weeks that was like, "Okay, it's only once a year. We're fine." And it was simple. We only had one year up till that. He actually did that one two weekends out of the year. Because in '99—so that was in ‘98—I was pregnant with Nute. He was in Wendover. I drove out to see him. We had a little weekend and I came home. That was his only two weekends a month that we ever experienced prior 9/11. In '99, we were at Keesler Force Base. At that time, he was considered full active duty. In 2000, I have no idea what happened in 2000. He probably did have a two-weekend, but I couldn't tell you what it was. So maybe there were two, there might have been three. Maybe he did one? I just don't remember any after that original one. I don't remember him ever doing a 70 two weekends again, or two weeks again, that were impactful to me. Then it just seemed like he was always deployed after that, even though he wasn't. Because he deployed in 2002, he deployed twice in 2002, and then in 2003, he deployed to the Azores, and then he went into that other unit in 2004. So those deployments counted as those two weeks—they counted as that. So that's how that worked. As far as I know. AK: So he had deployment status for those two weeks? LR: Yeah. AK: Interesting. That makes sense. My other questions, are kind of—backing up just a little bit, if that's okay? LR: Yeah, go ahead. AK: You were saying when you first got married and you went out on that base. Was it Keesler? LR: Keesler. AK: Keesler. You said it was the first-time you guys were ever alone. So tell me, did that mean that you had a lot of family interaction in your marriage? LR: Yeah, we were constantly surrounded by family—his family, not my family. I did not interact much with my family after we got married. Not really. What was there to interact with? Shortly after Nute was born, my parents went on a mission for 18 months. “Okay, whatever. Bye.” And then they seemed to always be gone. I don't remember them being in my children's lives, my parents. AK: You weren't super close to your siblings? 71 LR: Not, not yet. We were all in various states of bad marriages, but I didn't realize that at the time. So I helped my sister out when my older sister was going through her divorce with her kids. I helped her so she could see her kids. That's a sad story. But we won't go into that because it's not my story to tell. Otherwise, we were all married to abusers and isolated from our family. So it's kind of sad. AK: Okay, I'm going to make a note to ask you about how you and your siblings drew closer later, because I'm curious about that. LR: Yeah, it was something that happened later. AK: We can deal with that more linearly. And then when... LR: I need to, I feel like I need to talk about this that I was unwilling to talk about before. AK: Go for it. LR: If I'm going to be as honest as I'm asking everyone else to be—okay. I don't want to though. Didn't I do this in the last one, too? AK: Probably. LR: Yeah. Okay. AK: Either way, whatever you need to do. LR: So I, when we were talking about me being engaged to Lee, I was having these experiences with just my own sexual feelings that I didn't understand. I remember there were times when I would be able to feel him with a hug or something and I'd feel him like, "Am I doing that to you?" I literally would ask him, "Am I doing that to you? I am so sorry." "Why are you sorry? This is great." 72 He was trying to help me be okay. That it wasn't a bad thing. I just remember being terrified. "Oh my God, what am I doing to you?" And after that, I got a little more comfortable, "Okay, this is okay." But I can remember the part, the one time, that I think I felt like I had actually had—even though we hadn't had sex in any way, shape or form before we got married—But we were making out and I was having a good old time. And before I knew it, I was like, "Dear God, what's happening to me?" I didn't realize it until after we got married, it was like, "My God, I'm having an orgasm. I don't know what is happening." I could not—I didn't have the language. That's what it is now! I didn't have the language to adequately describe what was happening. I was so scared. Am I this terrible, wicked person for having these feelings? I'm enjoying them. Oh, my God. What's wrong with me? I honestly did not know what to do with that. And I haven't thought about that since then until you started asking me these questions. So I just had it in the back of my head, this nagging feeling, you have to talk about it. So now I've talked about it. I feel better. Okay, now you can move on. AK: I think that's good that you shared that because it is relevant. LR: I know it is. I know, it's really hard for me to. I even see how uncomfortable I can't even sit still. It's really hard for me to talk about. 73 AK: No, that's okay. It's really personal, like we were talking about on that Zoom chat with the other people. So it's okay. I think that's good that you shared that honestly. LR: Oh my God. Look what I did. I'm so nervous. Okay, go ahead. AK: I'm kind of curious, just as a kind of historical question, when 9/11 happened, I'm curious of what—you know, this is pre-social media right, pre-Facebook, all this stuff…. What am I trying to say? I'm curious about what the news cycle was like. Was it all over the place every time you turn on the TV? Was everyone talking about that kind of stuff? LR: Yeah, it was everywhere. Something I had never experienced before or since—it took a couple of years for it to fade. But the sense of unity, we were all in this together. There was a common enemy and it was the terrorists and how dare they? This anger, like righteous anger. Everyone had a flag. I mean, everyone was flying a flag, and I can remember one year shortly after that, we didn't fly a flag on July 4th and someone drove by our house. They said, "What's the matter with you?" We're patriotic. We really are. We just don't have a flag. It was just this sense of unity. And even though I was isolated from my family—and his family had no clue really what to or how to be. It was really strange. I can remember the deployment to the Azores, I was gone for two weeks. I really couldn't the night before he left, I just stayed up all night because I'm thinking, "Well, I'm going to be out for surgery. So what's, you know, what's the big deal?" And I really didn't have the energy to really clean my house. So I was gone for two weeks. I'd given my neighbor a key so that she could feed my dogs and help keep my dog alive. I 74 think we had cats, too. I can't remember. But anyway, I can remember walking home and there were ribbons all around my house, yellow ribbons. I walked into my home and it's clean. "Who's been in my house?" Was my first thought, "What the hell?" I go pick up the key from my neighbor and she said, "Now, I'm not supposed to tell you this. She doesn't want you to know. But this person came over and cleaned your house while you were gone." I can remember walking in to my home and just thinking, "Oh, my God, I can do this, I can do this because it was not at all the way I'd left it." And I was super grateful for my neighbors. I felt comfortable. I would go to a restaurant with my children and Nute would need to use the bathroom. “Aw, crap.” I didn't want to haul my son into the bathroom juggling him and helping her. So I would, like at a Wendy's or something, I would look around, "Hey, could you keep an eye on my child while I run my other to the bathroom? Would you do that?" "Oh, sure. That'll be fine." "Cool." I felt comfortable doing that and I did that a lot. I allowed, in those moments, I allowed people to help me. But it felt like it was okay because my husband was deployed. He was doing his part and I was doing my part. I was honored. I felt like I was doing something important. I would get up. I would help him pack his bags. It got to the point where I packed for him, I packed his bags. I 75 learned how to roll up his shirts because they're only given so much space and you have all this stuff you have to take. And if you don't pack it just right, it's not all going to fit. I learned how to do that. I would lay out his uniform every morning before he went to work and I took pride in it. “I'm doing my part.” I often wondered, “Is this what it felt like during World War II, you know, this type of helping out?” I just enjoyed helping my kids and being a mom and staying home and doing that. I'm grateful that I chose to stay home with my children that I took that time, because they are only young once. I had that option. It was not easy living on an E4, E5, income back then. I don't know how we did it, but we did. We made it. We survived. My children are better human beings because of it I think. We learned how to function as a unit, the three of us. Unfortunately, that did not include Lee, and he would come home and he was an outsider. In fact, Nute's the one that made that observation on the 20th anniversary of 9/11. We lost him because of the events of that day. They lost their father. AK: Did anybody ever talk at that time about how it felt like a modern-day Pearl Harbor? LR: All of the time. In fact, it was often made. It's the first time that we'd ever been attacked on American soil. Because at the time, Pearl Harbor was not a part of the United States. Pearl Harbor was, but Hawaii was not a state. They were a territory. If you look at it historically, it was the first time there had ever been an attack on American soil. Yeah, it was a modern-day equivalent. But it was far…it 76 was worse because unlike Pearl Harbor, the world was at war. We were completely caught off guard as a country. It shocked the world. It didn't just shock us. It shocked the world. It was intense. AK: Had there been talk of terrorists and terrorism and stuff before then? LR: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, that wasn't unusual, but it was so blatant. It wasn't until this year that I truly understood that the extent of the events of that day. I realized how much I had actually blocked out and forgotten about, which isn't unusual. I knew a plane had hit the Pentagon, but it hadn't really made…it never solidified in my brain until this year, which is bizarre. So every time someone would say my spouse or my friend died at the Pentagon, I'm like, "What happened at the Pentagon?" I knew what had happened at the Pentagon. I knew a plane had crashed into the Pentagon. But it wasn't real. To me, it wasn't part of that day. It was something that happened later, does that make sense? The way I had perceived it—so to watch these 20th anniversary of 9/11 things, “Oh, yeah. That did happen that day. Oh, yeah!” It was surreal. I realized how much I had kind of blocked out, because I was afraid of the reality that, “Damn, life as I know it is over in the blink of an eye. I'm not just a wife anymore. I'm a military spouse.” And I had no idea what that meant. I was completely unprepared for what it meant to have a husband deployed because it was all kind of just fun and games. It was just this kind of cool, “Look where my husband gets to go and do.” You know? That ended very, very quickly. But I'm grateful for the experience, because I felt like there have been moments since then when I've been able to 77 help someone understand what it was going to be like. But it's not easy. It's hard. You just do it because you love your partner and it's important and you feel like you're both a part of something bigger than your marriage. Sorry. Feel like I'm rambling. AK: No this is great. I know we're almost out of time, but I have several more questions. [To Alexis] Did you have any questions at all that I'm skipping over? AS: Yeah, I do have a question, actually. During 9/11, did you hear or witness any xenophobia towards any Middle Eastern individuals? LR: I remember where we lived, where I lived. I lived in Layton. I did not go into Salt Lake. I didn't go into Ogden. I stayed in my little niche. Yeah, that's a really good question, but no. I know it happened though. I listened to the news stories and just went, "But they're Americans, why are you...? Oh, because they're Muslim. That's not fair." But I also understood the fear, but I wonder, and I'm curious what my thoughts were, what I was really feeling, if I even cared. “Well they're Muslim.” You know, maybe I did think that. I honestly don't remember, but I'd like to think I cared. But I don't know. I care now, but at the time, I don't remember. That's a really good question. AK: So it’s actually one o'clock. So I think this is a good stopping place. And we can, if you're okay with doing another interview? LR: Yeah. I needed this. So, I need to process that first. You guys were absolutely right. We can go ahead and stop. Part 3: 24 September 2021 78 AK: Today is September 24, 2021. We are interviewing Lorrie Rands for part three of her life sketch interview. My name is Alyssa Kammerman, and with me is Alexis Stokes. [To Lorrie] The last time that we were talking, we discussed your husband's service in the Air Force National Guard. I just had a couple more questions about that until we move forward. The first one was, I'm curious about how your kids reacted with having their dad gone so frequently. And if there were certain things that you helped them to feel a little more resilient and to help cope. LR: So I could always tell that there was this process that seemed to happen. We all would get nervous, you know, “Okay, Dad's leaving. Let's warm up.” You know, this process we went through. And it was a lot easier when they were younger because they were younger. So it wasn't until I think Nute was closer to 5th or 6th grade and older, that it started to become a problem. I noticed more acting out. And initially, you know, the kids would walk all over me when Lee would go. I didn't know what to do. I would reach out to him, "Okay, make this better." And he'd have a talking with the kids. And I was like, "Okay, I have to do something. He's gone. I'm here." So I believe I started asking other parents, “What are your techniques for discipline?” Because I refused to spank my kids. I found that I would get so angry to the point where I would lose control. If I started spanking, then it was no longer a good thing. It was, “Okay, I'm literally hitting my children.” And so I absolutely put my foot down. 79 “I will never do that again.” I think I did it once and that was it for me. So someone mentioned, "You know, try time out, see if that works." "Okay." Ryan, I love that kid, but he'd do something, and I would say, "You go to time out." "Whatever Mom." So he'd be there for a second and walk away. He’d be like, "Look at me, I can do what I want." I'd pick him up, walk him back to time out and say, "Now you stay there until Mom says it's time to get out." You can almost see him think, "Whatever, Mom." And we played this dance for the first little while, but finally, he got it. “Okay, Mom means business.” I had to literally set that boundary. I didn't realize I was setting a boundary. That language, if you will, wasn't yet in my—I wasn't realizing that that's what I was doing, I was setting a boundary with my kids. But that worked, and then as they got older, I found that it was easier to be a parent when Lee wasn't around. Which is weird, because I had my own style. But when Lee was around, I literally would just let him, "Okay, you're the boss," if you will, because that's what I had seen growing up. And that's what I did. I let the guy, the husband, the man, the dad, “Okay, it's your job." So when it was just me, I can remember looking at my kids and saying, “All right, I have never been a parent of a 6th grade girl before or 80 a 4th grade boy. This is new to me. This is as new to me as it is for you being the kid. So can we just work together? I don't know what I'm doing any more than you do. I'm going to make mistakes." "Oh." It just seemed to work. And then especially as they got older, I would say, "Okay, we're all missing Dad. We're all going through this deployment together. So what do you say we work together and, you know, let's just talk." And that really seemed to make a difference. I don't know why. Then I would always make a point of, "Okay, Dad's leaving, what are we going to do for dinner?" Because Lee was very picky in his food, but I wasn't and I didn't want my kids to be stifled by that, even though they really are. "Okay, what are we going to do for dinner?" So I'd let them choose. We'd either go out a couple of times and they'd pick the restaurant or we would buy something to cook at home. So that's how we made it through. And then we had to deal with him coming home. That was a whole new thing, like, "Oh, okay, Dad's back." And I know that sounds terrible, but that's literally how it felt. “Okay, now we have to get used to him being home again.” And this is why I envied those spouses whose soldier was gone for six months to a year because they didn't have this continual back and forth. It was exhausting. The day he stopped deploying was a mixed bag. Yes, he can't leave anymore, but damn, he can't leave anymore. 81 I actually had someone ask me, "Is that why you've stayed together so long?" And at the time, I was like, "No, that's not why, because we communicate." And now I think yeah that's exactly why, because he wasn't around. So anyway, to answer your question, that's what I would do as the mom. And it seemed to work. AK: Did you have any kind of resiliency training or anything at that time? LR: No. I went to one thing. Basically, when the unit first stood up, I went to this thing. I learned about, you know, Tricare and all of that. We were we lived so far away from where they were based. So we're in Layton, they're based in Lehi. I wasn't ever part of the FRG, the Family Readiness Group. I'm beginning to realize that Lee kind of kept us isolated from that. I never really interacted with many of the military wives in the unit, except for one time when I went to Hawaii. That's a little later down the road. That was fun, interacting with a few of the wives during that and had a nice little mini vacation for myself and Lee. He was there, too. AK: Was it like a retreat? LR: No, it was training. It was a unit training. They were training with the Hawaiian unit. And we decided half the trip is paid for and it happened to be our 15th wedding anniversary year. So, like, “That's what we'll do.” So we went to Oahu. Spent 10 days on Oahu. I snorkeled for the first time. I stood on a sea turtle, which you're not supposed to do. I didn't realize that was standing on a sea turtle until I went to find that rock I was standing on again to adjust my snorkle. 82 Like, “Oh, great, there's a nice rock here.” It wasn't a rock, it was a turtle. I didn't realize that. But yeah, that was a lot of fun. I had a little fun with that. So fun, good things came out of it too. It wasn't all bad. And the kids and I, we learned how to be a unit together. My one regret is Lee was never a part of that. When he came home, that unity that we had fell apart and then it was me and him against the kids. It almost felt that way. I can't speak for him, but that's how I interpret it now. AK: That's interesting, because I feel like a lot of times it's the spouse that feels like it's them with the kids against the service member. So why was it you and him against the kids? Just out of curiosity? LR: It's the way I had set—what we had set it up. So, “Now he's home. He's in charge.” So I relinquished my role. I didn't realize I was really relinquishing my role. I know that now in hindsight that that's what I was doing. But at the time. I didn't. And so now that I can I have some space from it, I can see a little more clearly on what it was. I literally relinquished my role as the mom. It sounds really silly, but as the one who—we were no longer…we were never an equal partnership. I literally handed him my—what's the word? Basically, “You're in charge. You're the boss.” I gave that to him and when he came home, I just gave it right back. AK: It makes sense. That was mostly because of, like you said, how you had been raised. LR: Yep, I saw my mother doing that. I never saw my mother without my dad. So I didn't know what that looked like. How do you be an independent woman and still 83 be married and have your own independence? I didn't, I never saw that. I didn't know what it looked like. AK: How often were you able to communicate with Lee when he was gone? LR: We emailed all of the time back and forth. The longest time I didn't hear from him was two weeks. And that was because their air—they couldn't land on the Azores, they kept doing this triangle. They'd try to land. But the crosswinds were too bad, so they'd go to Italy and then Spain and then back, and try and land again. They did that for two weeks until they finally landed. That was it. Otherwise, on his three deployments, communication was only through email. Occasionally he was able to call, but it mostly was email. Then when he was moving with the other unit stateside, we called and talked on the phone almost every day. So it wasn't like a typical deployment overseas, it was just pick up your cell phone and call. You know, and if he could talk, we'd talk. It was that easy. AK: I'm curious, but you kind of already talked about this. When Lee was gone, what did yours and your kids' lives look like. I know you mentioned before that your life obviously had revolved around him and his schedule. But when it was just you and the kids, did you have any hobbies you were doing? LR: No, we spent a lot of time with their grandma, Lee's mom. Nute was in school. And so, it was just the evenings, you know, the afternoons really that we had to do things. We just found ways of, you know, being together. We'd watch movies or go to Grandmas or we just found—I can't remember the nitty gritty things. We'd play games, I think. Again, it's—I'm trying to remember exactly. But, I don't 84 know. I don't remember exactly what we did. We just—it was easy. That's all I know is that it was just easy. It was kind of nice. AK: That's interesting. Do you feel like that was where you started to find your own power? LR: I think that it was a start. The other thing—and it all started after, you know, once I was married to Lee and finding my own person. There was a point where I was very active in my religion after we got married. I mean, I was very, very active. And once we were up in our home in Layton, there was a point where Lee said to me, "I can't watch you do this anymore. You're killing yourself trying to be this perfect religious person. You have got to figure out what you're doing because I literally can't watch you do this anymore". And I knew what he meant. I was punishing myself for not being perfect. And so I thought about it and, I'm like, "All right, what am I going to do?" One of the—it made sense to me at the time, and it still does, I'm glad I did it, which is weird to say—but at one point, after contemplating this for a good week, I decided, "You know what? I need to step away. I need to step away from this religion that is killing me." And I remember the day. I basically removed all the outward, you know, the signs of my religion. I don't want to say it on camera. You understand what I'm saying? That day I felt such a relief. Such a sense of peace that I have never known. I thought, "Okay, cool, I don't have to be this perfect person anymore. I can just be me." 85 And I literally started to do things that I'd always wanted to, but originally, I was like, "Ah, my religion won't let me." So I started drinking. I never really smoked, but I pretended that I smoked, nastiest habit in the world, by the way. Actually, I really enjoyed a good cigar. I will say that. Yeah, I loved a good cigar. AK: The flavor. Is that what the difference was? LR: Yeah, you don't actually inhale the cigar smoke because you get all the nicotine through the paper. It's just—man, I could get sick off a cigar, I tell you. I started doing all of that and experiencing this freedom that I'd always denied myself. I’d say, “I couldn't do this.” Lee had already backed away from the church before I started this. He just said, “I can't do this anymore. I don't see the point.” This happened after Ryan was born. He said, "Because I don't get it." And he really wanted to start drinking again. I'm like, “Fine, whatever, I don't care.” I really did. But I didn't know how to—I'm like, “It's your choice, as long as I can still be me.” But I realized it didn't really work that way, at least not for me. This is all after Ryan was born. I don't remember where it fits into his deployments. But, I can remember one day we were in the park, and he asked, "Hey, how do you feel about swinging?" "What is it, first of all?" So he explains it to me, I'm like, "Oh, I don't know." And what's interesting is, I didn't really understand how I felt about it at the time. And I'm like, "Why not? As long as we're both in agreement?" 86 The one mistake we made is we never set boundaries or parameters or had a safe word or anything. We didn't do—I didn't do any research. I just went, "Okay, let's try it." There's only a few experiences that I really remember. Most of them, I've never talked about because I was ashamed that I was doing it, first of all. I can look back now and say I never wanted to do it. But I didn't know how to say no to Lee. He really wanted to and we had decided, we will, but if one person wants to quit, we will just quit. That was the one stipulation I had. So I believe it was our first experience—if not the first, it was the second. I can remember saying, “I'm done.” Okay, I've never shared this with anyone else. This is like, literally—you're the only people I've ever shared this, next to Chauney, who she knows about this experience, too. But literally it will be the three of you. I remember at one point I'm like, "Okay, I've had enough, I'm going to go over here." And I had separated myself from everyone else and I've had an okay time. Like, “This is just new. I don't understand this.” Way too many—it was almost like overload. So I'm just kind of off by myself and the next thing I know, this guy is just on top of me. I'm like, "I think I said I was done, dude." And I literally, I remember looking over at Lee going—I didn't say, I did not say a word. I never said, “No, I don't want this.” I never said, “Lee, help me.” I didn't say anything. I just laid there and let him do his thing and when it was all 87 over, I mean, I don't even remember much about it. I think I kind of just blocked it all out. Until finally, at home, I remember Lee asking me, "I thought you were done? What happened?" I'm like, "I was done." He said, "Why didn't you do anything? I didn't realize that you were in trouble." Like, "Okay, we can never do that again and we have to set boundaries." And that was the last time we ever did a group experience like that. The one and only time. I told him I would never do that again. And not once did I ever think of it as, “I was raped.” I never thought of it in those terms. It was just, “Well, I put myself in that situation and so it was my own fault.” And I think it's one of the reasons why I continued the behavior for so long, because I started it. I mean, I was the—I don't know, I was justifying it in my head. There were quite a few experiences that, I'm like, "I can't believe I did that." He would say to me, "I really want you to go out and have a one night stand with someone while I'm deployed." "But I don't want to." "Yeah you do." I don't remember exactly how he worded it. So I don't want to put words in in my ex-husband's mouth, because I don't remember the words he used. I just remember feeling like, "Okay, I need to do this because if I don't, he's going to leave me." 88 So I picked up a guy in a bar—I still can't believe I did that. I went to his house and I have sex with this stranger and I realized, "Wow, this is no different than having sex with my husband. I feel the exact same way. Does that mean I don't love my husband? Huh.” So I really got to thinking about, “It's just sex, so it's not a big deal.” And that happened a few times and I mean, I had to pretty much be drunk to do a lot of those things—or at least have a drink in me. But as it went on, I realized, I kept this feeling, “I don't want to do this anymore.” And so Lee and I would have these conversations, "Can we just stop?" "Well you haven't really, you haven't tried enough." "No I'm pretty certain, I don't want to do this anymore." But I just kept hearing this, “If I don't continue, he's going to leave me.” That is the one thing I wish I had more…I don't know, been more confident in myself. That it was okay for me to say no. I did not understand boundaries. Now, it's not to say I didn't have fun, I mean, well, it's sex. Of course I had fun. But, I never liked the way I felt. It was a different feeling because I'd have sex with Lee and I'm like, "Okay, this is fine. I love him." I'd have sex with a stranger and, "Eh." I found that if I had sex with an individual more than once, "Um, I can't do this anymore with you because I don't want to fall in love with you. I'm married." So there was one gentleman who just kept—he wanted to keep having sex. I think we did it maybe four or five times. I said, "I can't do this anymore with you. I have to stop." So I was learning what my boundaries were, but I didn't realize that I was—I can't believe I'm sharing all this y'all. As hard as it was, looking back on it, 89 I learned a lot about myself. I realize I'm a better person. I've become a better person because of those experiences even though I regret them. AK: What do you feel like you learned about yourself from that? LR: Well, I've learned what I don't like. I am a monogamous person, one at a time, thank you very much. I know that about myself. And I'm okay with that, very. I'm very comfortable with that. I learned the importance of boundaries. I didn't realize at the time, that that's what I was learning. But as I got older, and the kids were older, "Oh yeah. I should have set that boundary." If I'd have set that boundary. So that's what I learned. AK: Is that when you started learning to speak up for yourself a little more? Or was it the whole time you were just afraid of Lee? LR: I was afraid that Lee would leave. And, you know, that led to—and I want to be careful here because I... Okay, I'm going to talk about this, but I don't know if I'll keep it in the interview. AK: Okay, that's fine. LR: Lee was never abusive in that sense. He always seemed to—when I said no, he would stop. Except for once. And I don't even remember what the circumstances were, but I never ever let him forget. I held it against him, that he went too far. When we had the conversations about it later, he said, "I thought that's what you wanted because we were having this conversation and you said…" And I don't remember it very clearly. So all I can do is say, "I was doing what you told me to. I didn't realize there was a conversation after." So I don't remember exactly. I just 90 remember being, “I am not okay with this.” But I didn't know how to say, “I am not okay with this.” I know I'm being kind of vague because I'm not going to go into detail, if y'all don't mind. I can remember, when it was all done, I was angry. I was angry. “How dare he. I'll show him.” I was—and thinking about it now, it's like, what good would hurting myself do? How is that going to show him? But that's all I could think of, “If I hurt myself, that'll show him.” And I had nothing around me that I could really use to hurt myself with. But that's the only thought that kept going through my mind. And I have never felt—I've only ever felt that dirty after, after Jim made that announcement to me. It's the only other time I've ever felt that dirty and that cheap and that small. Looking at it now, if Lee knew that's how I felt, I honestly think he would have stopped. But I never said anything, almost as though I was—I was thinking, “You deserve this. You're not worth anything but this.” And it's also why I think I kept swinging. It's, “You're no better than this. You're just proving that you're a whore.” Yeah, it's interesting to talk about it, because I didn't realize that's how I was feeling and how I was seeing myself. I didn't see myself as a mother in those moments, or as a wife. I just saw myself as a cheap tramp. I don't deserve any better. AK: Do you think some of that was a reaction to the traumas of the past resurfacing a little bit? 91 LR: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I honestly believe that now. Yeah, I didn't know how to listen to my gut because I never was comfortable with swinging. It never felt right, but I didn't know how to listen to that part of me. AK: Yeah, that makes sense. Going back to religion a little bit, we were talking a couple of days ago and you mentioned how you were raised, obviously, in a very religious home, like almost a little fanatically, it sounds like. But you had chosen—rather than to raise your kids with that same religious upbringing, you raised them in kind of a military atmosphere. Was that by choice? LR: Yes, it was. AK: Okay, tell me a little about that. LR: You know, I can—I think I talked about this in the first interview about being baptized. I remember feeling that I had no choice. “You're going to do this.” And I felt like, it was one of the worst days of my life was getting baptized. It was not a pleasant day. I just…I felt so—I can't remember the words I used, but I just remember how I felt like, “I don't deserve that. No, I'm not worthy of this.” And I didn't want my kids to—I didn't want anything forced on them. I wanted them to make a choice when they were old enough. What religion works for you? And in my head, I thought that would be enough. So I kind of went to the opposite extreme of what my parents did, “You will be raised in this.” And I went, “You will be raised with nothing.” But that's what I wanted. It's I wanted them to have—a choice. Because I didn't have a choice and part of me regrets that in the sense that I never really talked about my own spirituality with my kids. I didn't 92 share that with them. I've always been very spiritual, but I didn't always understand it. That's the one regret I have, is that I didn't talk about a spiritual—I didn't share that part of myself with them. So I thought I was being a really good example. I don't know if I was or not. But I went the opposite extreme. AK: Okay, did you ever take them to a church or anything? LR: When they were little, and when I was still active in the church, yeah, I did. But that ended as soon as I was, like, “I'm done, I’m walking away.” And we never went to church again. AK: Okay, how did you kind of instill the kind of military teachings into their growing up? LR: Well that was just Lee, I mean, it was just osmosis if you will. In 2004, when he joined the unit, Nute was five and Ryan was three. So basically they were raised in a military home. The only difference is we didn't move every three years. Their dad was gone a heck of a lot, but we didn't move. We stayed but it was very structured. Everything was based around Lee and when he was coming or going. That was our existence and that's what they were raised in. So they very quickly got used to that. This is the way it is. AK: Absolutely. So I remember you saying that you had worked up until Nute was born. Is that corect? LR: No. So when I had my appendix out with Nute, I was 32 weeks pregnant with Nute. When we were in Mississippi, I didn't work at all. Then we moved back to Salt Lake and I started working at Cottonwood Hospital. Did I mention this before? 93 AK: Yeah, I think you did, because you were really sick, right? LR: Yeah, with Ryan. I had to quit after with Ryan. I didn't work again after that. I decided, "Hey, I know it's hard, but we're going to live on Lee's income." Lee and I discussed it, "I'm going to stay home. I'm going to be a mom." I didn't have that mom as a kid. I wanted to be that for my children. At one point, I think it was maybe 2002 or 2003, it was before Lee entered the unit, the 85th. I was like, “I should really go back to work.” And I tried. But I didn't want to. And my body said, “You will not work.” I only lasted there for like two weeks. I can't remember where I worked. I was answering phones. It was—Oh, it's a telemarketer—I hated it, by the way. But yeah, I quit and I decided, “Why am I doing this? I'm not going to do this. I'm just going to be a stay-at-home mom.” And I loved it. I loved every minute of it. Being that mom with my kids and going to school with them, walking them to the bus stop. I just loved it. It was a lot of fun. I couldn't have been that mom that they needed if I was working, too. So it just made it easier, I think, for Lee to deploy knowing I'm home and the kids are good. And did I mention I loved it? I reveled in being home with them. It wasn't always good and happy and sunshine, you know. But as I look back, I realize that when I was doing something wrong, I'd fix it and I'd start doing better. So I know I did the best I could as their mom and as they were growing up. I'm grateful that I had that opportunity to be a stay-at-home mom. I did that until one day I was like, "Damn, I'm bored. I cannot keep cleaning the house." 94 You can only clean your kitchen spotless every month for so long before you're just bored. This was when Nute was getting ready to go into junior high and Ryan was in the 5th grade. So then I did something different. AK: And I like how I was going to try to lead into that. LR: Oh, leading into that? AK: Go for it. Yes, do tell. LR: I had told Lee, "I'm either going to get a job or go back to school." And Lee said, "Well, why don't you go back to school." “Oh. Hmm…What would I do?” So I can remember it was the end September, beginning of October. So we had done something for our anniversary—which ironically is tomorrow. So we had spent the night somewhere. I don't remember what it was, but we were going to Sill's Cafe the next morning. It was crowded like it always is on a Sunday morning. I know you've heard this before—but behind us is a couple. And I'm like, "Lee, they're going to have to wait forever, too. So let's just get a….” because the booths all seat four—“Let's just invite them to join us." "Okay." Boy, was that the wise thing to do, because it was Adrienne Gillespie and her fiancé. I did not know this. We start talking and this is before she took, you know, now she's this really amazing person here at Weber. I can't think of her title at the moment. Adrienne Andrews is now her married name. But anyway, so we're and I don't remember how we got on the subject. But Adrienne said, "Go back to school!" 95 "Okay but, if I do, I'd want to get a history degree, and I don't want to teach." "Who said you had to teach?" And she's literally, like this [Lorrie shows how close Adrienne was to her] "Who said you had to teach?!" “I don't know.” And her fiancé says, "Back up, calm down, rein it in, you're scaring her." She was so passionate. I was like, "Damn, I want that." And so she gave me her card and she says, “You call me if you get scared.” And so I remember emailing her once saying, "I don't know what to do." And she replies, "You got this. Just, just go." "Okay, all right." So I applied to Weber, I picked my major and my minor—History, public history. I should not have been surprised when I got accepted. But I was like, "I got accepted, yay!" There's Lee, "Duh." And then I started. I applied for financial aid, and I got financial aid— because I knew I couldn't do it if I didn't get a grant or something. I started back to Weber in 2011, fall semester of 2011. One of the best decisions I ever made for myself. That, I can honestly say is where I really started to take care of myself. It was the beginning of the end of my relationship because I was actually 96 taking care of me for the first time. I had never done it before. That, I'm so glad I did that. Anyway, I had a wonderful career here at Weber, I had a lot of fun. AK: Yeah, I'm curious how you came to Special Collections. When did that happen? LR: So I'll just walk through the whole thing. I remember having a meeting with my advisor, Dr. Brady Brower. Dr. Brower said, "You need to apply for scholarships." "I can get a scholarship? Really?" So he told me how to do it. I'm like, "Okay, it can't hurt. I'll start applying." The next year, I get this letter, "Hey, congratulations! You've received The Lola Sessions Scholarship." “What?! Okay!” I had no idea what this scholarship was. I didn't realize that it was—there, at the time, there were two scholarships of that caliber: The Lola Sessions scholarship and the Dean's Merit. Both of those were the same award and they were the highest. I had no idea. So I show up at the awards banquet and there's Dr. Gene Sessions—I love that man. He's talking about The Lola Sessions scholarship and I'm listening to him. And all I could think up is, "You guys picked me for this scholarship?" I literally did not feel like I deserved it. I felt like, “Man, I had better do good. I'd better earn this scholarship.” And it kept me on the, “I have to do really well.” And I did. 97 In fact, Dr. Brower's class is the only class I had an A- in. A damn A-. The only A- I ever got. The lowest grade I ever got in my career here at Weber, until my master's degree—that's a whole other ballgame. But anyway, so yeah, I was so proud of that and didn't think anything of it the next year. And then I saw I received the Dean's Merit scholarship too. “Damn. What did I…I don't deserve this?” I literally did not feel like I had done anything to deserve it. I was just doing my thing. So when it came to Special Collections, I had to start thinking about my senior thesis and Dr. Kathryn MacKay had said, “Okay, this is already out there so I'm going to kind of skim over it.” She came and helped me come up with the idea for my thesis. A lot of the information I needed was in Special Collections. And so I did an internship as part of my public history thing, yeah. I did it in Special Collections where I scanned these logbooks and it was—I loved it. I had so much fun. And scanning is really boring, it's one of the most boring things you can do as an archivist. Bar none, but it's all I did almost was scan. But it was so much fun. I mean, what I'm seeing, what I'm looking at. That's how I started working in that Special Collections thing, which led to a job. And when a job opportunity opened up in Special Collections, Sarah Langsdon and Melissa Francis both asked me to apply. So I did. And they had to go through the entire interview process with other applicants, and you know what the catalyst was to me getting the position? I had scanning experience. That's all I did. I had scanning experience and the other applicants didn't have as much scanning experience as me. It was really kind of cool. 98 AK: Was that when you got your staff position? LR: Yeah. AK: What was the job when you first got it, because I know it wasn't oral history at first? LR: No, it was just, “manuscript processor.” The fact that, I loved, oral histories was my thing. In 2011, in one of my first classes, I had to do an oral history and gather one. I interviewed my grandfather, who was a World War II veteran. We had to do it on World War II. That interview is how I fell in love with oral histories. I had never seen—I had never been a part of something quite so amazing as I listened to this story. And I could see how it unfolded and it just seemed natural. In fact, at one point he said to me, "Man, you're really good at this." "Thanks, Grandpa. I didn't realize, but yay." And I never wanted to stop and I never have. Since then, I've just collected oral histories. AK: As a manuscript processor, how did you start? Did you just go to Sarah Langsdon and say, “Hey, I think we should do more oral histories or how did that whole process start?” LR: When I started, they were doing the Business at the Crossroads oral history project, and so there was a ton of oral histories to collect. I just started going out with the other student workers gathering oral histories, and she seemed to just trust me to do it. And so, yeah, I just said, "Well, hey, if you trust me, I'm going to keep going." And every one I did, I was better and better. And I had so much fun and I learned a lot. 99 AK: Two questions I need to follow-up on. First, how did you know you wanted to do history? LR: I've always loved history. It's just been this thing I've always loved. I've had a passion for it. I don't know why. It’s just who I am. I love learning about history. I love delving into the whys: Why did this happen? Who was this person? It's just fun. I don't know. Can't you tell I like it?! So that's it. But, no, nothing else but that. Just that simpleness of it. AK: I actually hadn't heard of the Gene Sessions scholarship. LR: Yeah you have. You received it. AK: No, The Martha Collett Scholarship was the one I received twice. LR: No, you received The Lola Sessions Scholarship, didn't you? AK: I don't think so. LR: I thought you did. AK: I'll have to look back and look. I got The Martha Collett Scholarship twice—that was like a public history specific scholarship. But what did The Lola Sessions Scholarship involve? LR: Lola Sessions was Dr. Gene Session’s mother. The Session’s family named it after Lola. It was kind of their endowment for her. I'm saying it wrong. I'm not using the right terminology. But, they set it up in her honor and they made a point of—even though they weren't supposed to—of only giving it to women. Because their mom couldn't get an education the way she wanted because she was a woman. And so they have made a point of only giving it to women. And I just felt honored the more I've learned about it that, “Wow, y'all picked me.” 100 AK: It's for excellence in your field? That part of it? LR: I didn't know have to think too much about it. The Dean's Merit was because I had such good grades. And then I mean, they just kept throwing these awards at me by the end of my career as an undergrad. I'm like, “I don't deserve this.” Like the Utah History Award that goes to the senior… I don’t remember, it's written on my paper. I don't remember what it's for or if I'm even saying it right. I don't have my list of awards with me, sorry. Receiving these awards, it just shocked me. “Wow. I'm getting another award.” And then Dr. McKay was, "You need to put your name in for the Helen Papanikolas Award.” And they do an award for Utah State History. The Utah State Historical Society does an award for this. And I submitted my thesis for that and it won. I submitted my thesis to be published in the Utah Historical Quarterly and it was published. All because I listened to and followed the advice of those who knew better, so I tried to always listen. And if they said you should do this, I would say, “Okay, you're the boss. I'm following your lead." I received an undergraduate research grant to go back to DC to do my thesis work. I've already talked about this in my other interviews, so I'm not really going to delve too much into it. It was fun. Those were the days. AK: Well, I'm curious, too. I know your thesis was about World War II about the canteen. Where you had lived through the attacks on 9/11 and everything, did you see a lot of parallels there that connect those people? 101 LR: I felt very connected to Maude, and how much one person could accomplish. I'm not making much sense here, but, yeah. I felt it was a [Lorrie checks the time on her phone] Wow, we’ve only been doing this for an hour or so. Feels like we've been doing this for a long time. What was the question? AK: If you had seen... LR: Oh, the parallels. Yes, but not in the same. I wasn't thinking about it in those types of parallels, honestly. I just knew I wanted to do something based around World War II, but I hadn't really, you know, I hadn't equated those two things together, to be honest. AK: That is interesting. [To Alexis] Before I move on, any questions so far at all? AS: No, you can keep going. AK: Okay, sounds good. So I know, after you started. LR: Hold on. [Interview ends for a break] [Interview begins again] Going back just a little bit, I remember when—so I'm still at home—I hadn't gone back to school yet. But Ryan was really struggling with school and he could not, I mean, he was the exact opposite of Nute. Nute was like, “This is so easy, it's not even funny.” But Ryan was just struggling and he never said anything. He's a very quiet child, even still is to this day. I don't remember exactly why we finally decided to get him tested for a learning disability, but it was between his fourth and fifth grade years. And what's funny is, we don't have a lot of money and it was expensive. The insurance only covered a small portion of this testing. And so we were both like, “Well, we have to figure out what's wrong with him.” And I'm glad we did, that we spent the money and that we found out that Ryan has dysgraphia. And 102 he has no rote memory. That is something I take for granted, you know, three times three, I don't have to think about it, it's nine. Well Ryan has to do the math in his head every time. He has no rote memory in that regard, which is why he could never pass the spelling test. He'd spell it right and then the very next time, he couldn't spell it right and I would get angry at him. "Ryan, you did it right the first. Why can't you do this?" And so it's interesting now to look back and realize, “Wow, he did the best he could.” And it's been amazing to watch him take that disability and excel. He has learned what he needs to do to conquer that. He hated doing it. He had to go over his spelling letters, not out loud. He had to write down how to spell and how to write them correctly. Every day he would write each list three times. Every single day he'd come home and that was his homework. Let me tell you, the day he passed and got an A on his spelling test, we threw a freaking party. He was so excited and so were we. Yeah, so Ryan struggled with dysgraphia, which is like the little brother of dyslexia. It's just the written language. And on top of that he has no rote memory. AK: So if he wrote it out three times then he... LR: Muscle memory. AK: Oh muscle memory. Not even rote memory? LR: Not even, it comes down to muscle memory. AK: Wow, so it's more of a pattern that his hand does. LR: Yep, then it is the memory. Which is why to this day he loves to write, but to this day he will forget that a period goes there. That a new sentence begins with a capital. He'll forget. But it's come down to muscle memory, when there's a period. 103 "Oh yeah, it's a capital the next one.” It has nothing to do with rote memory, but with muscle memory. It's the coolest thing if you think about it—compensating for that. But anyway, that was an adventure. And, you know, along the way there was a lot of really good people that helped me be a better mom. I wish I understood ADHD better because Nute would have been diagnosed much earlier, you know, it is what it is. So anyway, other than that, I think we're good, we can keep going. AK: Well, Okay, two questions. First of all, does dysgraphia affect other areas of his memory or just when it comes to writing things out? LR: It's mostly just writing. The other thing is that Ryan hated sports and a lot of it was because he was farsighted in one eye and nearsighted in the other, and he never complained. But when you're that young, you don't realize you have a problem because you're just accustomed to it. And so when we took him to the eye doctor, the eye doctor was, “I haven't seen this. This is the worst I've seen in a long time. But it'll correct itself." “Really?” And it has. Now he's nearsighted in both eyes. But it explained why he could never catch a ball and why he was never interested in sports. Because if I can't see the damn ball, why would I want to play, you know? And he was never interested in sports. The poor kid. I feel bad for him. Anyway. AK: That is so rough. How did you see ADHD manifest in Nute's life? LR: I didn't. AK: Really? 104 LR: I never once realized Nute had ADHD. But I've learned that it manifests differently in females than males and it's usually not diagnosed in females until much later in their life, so. AK: I wonder why that is. That's really interesting. LR: I think it's stereotypes. Females are supposed to be, this way. Males are supposed to be like this. Nute hid a lot of it. But that's Nute's story. AK: When did you get him tested? Was it at some point later in his childhood or was when he was an adult? LR: This is recent. He was diagnosed with ADHD about six months ago. AK: That's super recent. LR: Yeah. AK: I didn't realize that. LR: So, had to wait till he was 22 to be diagnosed. AK: So how long were you employed by Weber State before you had your stroke or was it blood clot? Is that the same thing? I am confused on that. LR: So, I had worked an entire week as a staff member. One whole week. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm going to share that story now, huh? AK: If you're okay with it. LR: Yeah, I am. So looking back, I can remember the week, that first week. I started on Wednesday, July 16, 2014. So I had just graduated with my bachelor's degree in April that year. That was like, par-tay! So I got this job, I was super excited. And I remember that first day, I was being walked around the library and I don't feel good. I feel like my head's not quite right. I just remember feeling heavy and 105 like my ears were—leading up to that day, a few weeks before, I felt like my left ear was full of water. It was clogged, you know. So I went and saw the doctor. "Well, I'm not, I don't see anything in there," So what really can, can you do? And so the doctor was like, "Well, just try to unclog your ears and hopefully that'll work." "Okay, cool." I mean, I didn't know anything. I just didn't feel good. I was training—my little brother and my little sister and I had decided to run the Tough Mudder later that year and we'd signed up. So we were doing our exercises. I was having so much fun. And so the morning of Tuesday the 22nd, I had gotten up. "I'm going to go running." I was feeling pretty good. So I got up and did my exercises. I ran three miles that morning and stopped on my way to work to pick up some coffee. I still feel great. But, eh, whatever. I went to go to work and halfway through the day, I sneezed and it was the most painful sneeze I have ever experienced. Right up there with childbirth. I think I blacked out a little bit. I was in so much pain. It hurt so much. I'm like, "I think I should go home." So I went home and took some ibuprofen, hoping it would help. I went to bed and woke up the next morning and my head still hurt. That had never happened to me. Ever. I chose not to exercise that morning and I chose to make an appointment with my doctor because something's not right. Which is not 106 something I would normally do. So I think I was following my intuition. Lee took me to the doctor. I thought I had taken myself, but I didn't. This is how well I remember that day, in those terms. He took me. The top was down on the jeep. I remember that. And I remember the doctor at the clinic on base said, "I think you're having a migraine. We can't treat that here. So we're going to send you to Davis and they're going to treat you for the migraine." "Okay." So Lee takes me to Davis Hospital. And I'm in so much pain and we're sitting in this room and next to us is a screaming child. And I kept saying to Lee, "Just take me home. I don't want to be here anymore. Just take me home." "No, we need to figure out what's going on." "No, just take me, I don't want to be here, just let me go home." They finally give me some drugs and sent me for a CT scan. I remember how terrified I was to be alone with the tech, because he was a guy. I remember this very clearly because I was also on drugs and I was thinking he was going to hurt me. I had a hard time relaxing. But the painkillers started to kick in and so I'm feeling pretty good. A few minutes later, the doctor comes in. "We're seeing something strange on the CT scan, so we're going to do an MRI." "Okay" I don't care at this point. But as I'm in the machine, it's then that I'm realizing something's wrong. So in the machine, I can remember literally saying the first prayer I have said in a long, long, time. 107 "God, I don't care what I have to go through, I will go through it. Just please give me more time with my family." I have always remembered that. That I chose to go through this. I wanted this. I've had to remind myself of that on many occasions. And I'm glad I did. The doctor comes back in. "You have a blood clot in your brain." And I can remember sitting there going, "Excuse me? Okay, so can I go home?" "No, you can't go home." "Oh, okay." "We're going to transfer you to a different hospital because we don't have a neurologist here on staff." "Oh, so Lee can take me." "No." It wasn't computing in my head and the doc said, "You will be taken by ambulance, where do you want to go? University of Utah or IMC?" "Uh..." It's still not computing completely in my head. So we chose to go to Intermountain Medical Center. And at that point, I realized, "Oh." I'm still in shock. I realized that I was in shock. "I have a blood clot in my brain. I don't know what that means, but it's bad enough that they're not letting me go home. Okay." So that was the diagnosis. I remember calling my sister. 108 "I'm fine. It's just a blood clot in my brain." And she said to me, "You're in shock." "No, I'm doing fine. I'm going to be just fine." "You're in shock. Okay, what's going on? Where are you going to be?" So I told her where I was going to be. "Will you call the family?" "Yeah, I'll take care of it." Then I had to call Sarah, "Hey, I have a blood clot in my brain." It's so funny to think about it now because I just started working for Special Collections. I had no time to take off. And I remember her saying, "We'll make sure you have time. You do what you need to do. Take care of yourself." Which was nice. I do remember when the ambulance came and I was put in the ambulance, man, they were two good looking guys. So it was nice eye candy on the way to the hospital and I think I talked the entire way, but I might not of, because I was high. They did another CT scan when I got there. And I will never forget, this couple in the area I was living in, I had called them and asked if they would come up and say a prayer with me. "Yeah, we'll be there." And when they got there, my sister was there. My parents were there. I don't remember if Lee was there. And they came in and he said, "Who would you like to say the prayer?" And all I could think of was, “You amazing man, thank you for not assuming.” And I believe I said "You, you go ahead." 109 He knew I would never ask for a blessing, so he didn't ask. It was amazing. I had never, that was one of the first times I've ever experienced just this, "Okay, you're leading this. You tell us what you need." No assumptions that I wanted something. And I think in that moment I started this journey, my own spiritual journey, which is just as important as any. It's an important aspect of my healing, of coming to my own, if you will. I spent the rest of that day, all of Friday, the 24th of July in the hospital. They allowed me to leave on Saturday once my INR levels had settled down and I was getting a little bit used to the heparin and whatnot. I literally kept saying in the hospital, "I'm going, you watch, I'm going to get up and go running on Monday. You guys watch." And it amazed me that my body kept getting weaker and weaker. I could barely walk around the floor of the hospital and I couldn't understand it. "What's happening to me?" And I don't even think the doctors realized that it was bleeding into my brain because there was absolutely no blood flow leaving my brain. Looking at the MRI when we went into the neurologists, she was like having a—this might be a little weird—but she was like having an orgasm over this MRI. It was the most beautiful thing she'd seen. “You're weird lady.” But she showed us and was, "Look, this side, you can see, it's free flowing, but this side, it's just completely white." 110 When blood is moving freely on an MRI, it's dark. But when it stopped moving, it's white. And it was like white on one side and black on the other. And so I don't think they knew, really, they couldn't say, “By the way, it's bleeding. So you're actually having a stroke right now.” That didn't happen until the MRI six months later, which showed that the blood clot had dissipated, had dissolved on its own, which is what it had to do because they had no idea how long it had been forming. And she said, "There's scarring, but that's to be expected." And I didn't think to ask "Huh? What's that mean?" Now, with retrospect, I realize, oh, there was scarring, which means the veins bled, which means I bled into my brain, which is why I still have these issues. But I can honestly say it's one of the blessings of my life, having a stroke. Which is a really weird thing to say. But it forced me to stop trying to hide. I would do everything and anything for anyone if it meant I didn't have to look at myself. “Don't look to close.” I didn't realize that that's what I was doing. I understand that now. So, yeah, it got me to that point, it helped me understand that. But it was a long road. Not as long as others who've had a stroke. But for me, it was a long road. I'm grateful for those that were patient with me when I was impatient because I didn't get up and go running on Monday morning. I haven't run since. That's—Okay, wow, I'm getting really emotional over this. Because I watched both my children graduate from high school and start college. Okay, I got nothing else right now, so you're going to have to ask a question. 111 AK: It sounds like that was kind of the beginning of your healing in a way, which is kind of ironic, because, like you said... LR: Yeah, it really is very ironic. But I think it helped my kids. It was around this time that Nute came out as bisexual, and I was shocked. And I'm embarrassed to say that I was shocked. I've always for some—somehow I've always known one of my children was gay. I just had a feeling, to be honest. I thought it was Ryan. Sorry, Ryan. But it wasn't. And I remember talking with my sister, "Why don't I see it?" And she, "Sometimes you're just too close." "Okay, whatever." But as I settled into that, I realized, “Yeah, you're not bisexual, you're a lesbian. It's okay.” I never said that out loud to him. To Nute. I never said that aloud to Nute. I just kind of kept it in my head. And so I was really grateful that he finally came to that on his own. But, yeah, that was really cool. AK: What did your first few days back to normal life, work, and whatnot, look like after your stroke? How did you transition to your new life? LR: It was really slow. It was really slow. I couldn't work. I didn't work for two weeks. I couldn't work for two weeks. Initially, I couldn't watch television. I can't explain to you why it hurt. It just hurt. Not just my head it hurt my entire body somehow. I don't know. I don't understand. So I started painting some ceramics and it was really relaxing. And then I remembered, I crochet! So I started crocheting and picking that up. I need to go back just a little bit. So two weeks before I had my stroke, Lee's Mom suddenly died. She had ovarian cancer and had completely and 112 totally just—she was the type of person who takes care of everyone else. And then when there's time, will take care of themselves. So she left it untreated for a long time. Finally, she was having the surgery to remove the stuff, and things had gone well. But that night, the night of July 4th, 2014, we got a phone call at 1:00 in the morning, "Grandma's dead. You need to come to the hospital." "Okay." Ryan was at scout camp. It was like the second day of scout camp. I'm like, "Crap, okay." But we decided to let him have that experience with scout camp and not worry too much about it. That was hard because, Lee never talked about it. And things really started to change after his mom died. This is where I'm going to be very careful with what I say, because I don't want to tell his story. We'll just say that, he started—I think he wanted to find himself and he made some choices. And the one thing he did start to do more is drinking. And he could no longer deploy with his unit, because of his drinking. That's what the docs said anyway. And so that's why he was home with me. He wasn't deployed at all. He was home and that's why we got through... He was there for his mom, for the funeral. And then, I swear, not even less than, you know, on the 4th of July, 22nd of July was when I had my stroke. That's a lot in one month, you know. But I didn't really know what was happening in my own home at that time. And I think this, for me, it's important to talk about. I didn't see what was happening. I didn't realize how much Lee was drinking. I didn't realize how much the kids were doing. All I saw was, Lee's 113 taking care of me, and I had just assumed Lee's taking care of the kids. For all I know, that's exactly what he thought he was doing. So that was our existence, those next, really, three or four months was just, "Okay, what can Mom do?" I would go to work for four hours. Take the next day off. Go to work for four hours. Take the next day off. And I did that for about two weeks. And then I started working every day for four hours and did that until I was ready to move out to, “Let's try six hours.” At one point, the dean of the library went to Sarah and said, "Does she need to go on ¾ time?" Sarah brought that information to me and I just almost started crying, "Don't take this away from me. This is the only thing that's keeping me going. That's keeping me pushing forward." Because I felt like I was failing at home. I couldn't take care of my kids. I was angry that I couldn't take care of my family. I couldn't make dinner and those little things. I would cry, I would try to make dinner and I would just sob because I couldn't make the freaking dinner and the kids would have to help me. We had a tradition of reading a book every October. I couldn't read it out loud. It was the first time in 16 years that I wasn't able to read that damn book out loud. I was so mad. But, the kids were there. And in his own way, so was Lee. I really do think Lee did the best he could. But his drinking got in the way. And I started gaining this level of independence. I realized, “No one else can do this for me. I have to do this on my own." I reached out to my sister who had Parkinson's, and we would have conversations and I realized how similar our symptoms were. And so I would talk with her and, "Okay, I'm doing okay, and I can do this." Which was nice. That 114 was like the catalyst that really started me on this journey of self-discovery. To help me tackle the journey I'm on now, I don't know how else to put it. AK: Was this also the point where you finally started to kind of mend the ties between your siblings? Because I know you were all newly married, and you said you were all pretty separate—had your own problems, your own families, you know. LR: No. Well, kind of. So that had happened. Because I like try to forget about everything that, you know, I tried to block all that out. But I think it was 2008, 2009. I'd have to Google the court dates, exactly. But my older brother, Jim, was arrested. He had turned himself in. I will be honest here, he turned himself in for sexually abusing his children, his adopted children. Children we had tried to—my little sister had tried to stop them from adopting. She put a lot of energy into it. She was the only one. We were all just, no one else really had the…I was like, "I didn't know what to do." But she just said, "I have to. I have to stop him from adopting these kids." Well and nothing she did worked. And I give her all the credit because I didn't know what to do and I really didn't do anything. It was all Helen. And so I basically told myself, "I will go to every court meeting." We went to the police, Helen and I, and we said, "They're not his first victims. He's done this before." And so we laid out what he had done. And basically the investigator said, "You all need to write letters to the judge because your voices will never be heard in court. But he'll read the letters." "All right." 115 So I wrote a letter to the judge. I documented what he had done to me and everything. But I went to every single court date and I almost forced myself to listen because it's cold. The law, it's very cold. And it was painful to listen to what he had done to those children, and I remember at one point we're having a little family meeting and for some reason my parents thought that my brother had hadn't really done as much to us. And my little brother spoke up and said, "Uh, you guys are idiots. He did that to me." And he almost spat it out at them. I can't remember the exact words he used, but I can remember the venom, that he was angry. And my parents didn't quite know how to handle that. But to be fair, I've never been a parent in that situation. So he was convicted and he spent 12 years in prison. And my sister and I, we started becoming a little bit closer at this point, my little sister. Still not really, you know, great, but we started talking a little bit more. But it wasn't until more recent, I think it was about when I started going back to school because I, I'm a terrible writer. I was a terrible writer. I'm not anymore. I needed help. I remembered my sister was really good with words. And so I asked her if she'd edit my papers. "Oh, sure!" She taught me how to write. And that's really when we started. So going again, going back to school, we started to talk more. And at one point, we realized that Jim was going to get out of prison soon. And we need—I just was like, "Okay, I want timeline, guys. I want a timeline." 116 And so I put it out to Helen and she's like, "Well, maybe we should get together, the four of us, and just do a timeline." And we did. In December of 2019, we met as siblings. I can't remember exactly when Jim got out of prison. I think it was in 2019. In fact, I'm quite sure it was. And, wow, I'm sorry, I'm doing a little flashback here. I apologize. Where was I, what was I saying? AK: That Jim got out of prison? LR: Oh, right. This is where the memory gets a little fuzzy again. We met with our parents so that we could set boundaries. My father sat as far away from us as he could and not once, engaged in a conversation with us. My mother was a little more engaged, but I was like, “I don't even know if you're hearing me.” But we all basically said, "We know he's your son, but we want nothing to do with him. We will not be in the same room with him. So don't invite him to parties you want us to be at." She had made the mistake of inviting his prison pen pal to come to a party where we were, and invited and introduced him as such. And I was like, "Ew, I can’t even look at you." And I'm like, "This isn't okay." And then they wanted to use these t-shirts that he'd made in prison for a family reunion. I'm like, "I will not wear it. I don't, no, y'all. The rest of you can have them. But no, that's not okay." So this is him getting out of prison—I think was this catalyst of something has to give. We had that, we had that meeting. Ironically, it was around the same time that I decided to go back to school and get my master's degree here at Weber. So, I tend to do a lot of things all at once, and I probably shouldn't. Oh yeah, and I started dating, too, around this time. Big 117 mistake and I'll explain why. So anyway I started. I started dating this guy. Oh wait, I have to talk about the divorce. Holy shnikes, I'm getting ahead of myself. AK: It's okay, we can go back in a minute for the divorce, so you're good. LR: But you asked about the sibling thing. So that happened in 2019. So let's rewind. So honestly, Lee was really supportive during all of the court stuff and he would listen to me and I'd share with him what I'd heard. And so that was good. But the stroke really was the catalyst that started the beginning of the end of our marriage. I didn't realize I was unhappy. I didn't want to swing anymore. I kept trying to make it okay. I kept trying to have these experiences with him. But I just didn't want to feel that way anymore. I didn't see myself that same, I wasn't that same woman. I didn't realize how much I had changed. AK: This was post stroke? LR: Post stroke. And to be honest, I really couldn't have sex like I had before. It's a whole new ballgame when the brain's involved. You don't realize how much the blood just rushes, especially it rushes to your head for some reason. I would get the most horrific headache every time I would have an orgasm. Lee always made sure I achieved that. "I can't, no don't, no, I can't." And so I literally was, "We can't, I can't have sex with you." And he really struggled with that. So I think I kept doing the swinging so that he could still have an outlet. I was trying to be a good wife, but I just didn't enjoy it. And Lee was becoming increasingly unhappy, too. I could just see it. And I finally went and said, "I can't, I don't want to swing anymore." And he said, "Well, I do." 118 I'm like, "Well, then we need to figure something out." "Um, okay." We had started marriage counseling. I can't remember if it was the end of 2017 or the beginning of 2018, and I had been asking him, "Should we separate?" And he would say "No." Finally, one day he said, "Do you think we should separate?" I said "Yes." "Oh, okay." So we separated. And no one left the house, he moved down into the basement, I stayed in the bedroom. I realized I couldn't just have sex with him just to have sex. And so that was a struggle. More for him than for me. Nute graduated from high school and moved out. I didn't really understand why at the time, because I didn't understand how bad Lee's drinking had gotten. Not until I found the hidden bottles. I found the hidden bottles, and it occurred to me, "Oh." And ironically, it was the marriage counselor and my boss both said, "You should try going to Al Anon." "Okay." I hear it from one person, I'm like, “eh” but I hear it from two people, the exact same thing, who don't know each other? Maybe I should listen. So I started going to Al Anon, and I remember going to my first meeting thinking, "Oh my gosh, you guys are describing my childhood." It had never occurred to me that I was raised by two children of alcoholics. Codependency is a thing. It never occurred to me that I was contributing to the 119 chaos in my home. So Al Anon opened my eyes to what I was doing. I was trying to control Lee's drinking. I literally, I found his bottle and I got mad. "What the hell are you doing?" I think I screamed at him, "Don't you love me? Don't you care about me? Don't you care about my, our marriage?" I mean, I was mad. And he said, "Yeah, I do. And I'll stop," and, you know, just all the typical things. But in my head I knew that, "No, he's not going to stop." So I thought, "I'll control it for you." Can you imagine the ego that it takes for an individual to say, "Hey, I can control your drinking for you?" AK: It's pretty normal. LR: I know it is, but it's just amazing to me that I actually believed, "I can, you can't do it for yourself, but I can do it for you. I have that much power." So I did. I'm thinking, "I'm amazing. I got my God pants on. I can control this for you." The ego, I mean, it's just, it blows my mind. But I did. I tried to control his drinking. And of course, that never works because it's not mine to control. It's not mine to deal with. But I seriously tried to deal with it. Al Anon taught me the only person that I can deal with is me. And I stop trying to control what Lee was doing. And I started taking care of me. And it was around that time that I said, "Yeah, we need to separate." And I was hurt, but happy, if that makes any sense. And it wasn't, it was about three months later, on bended knee, Lee said, "Can we try again?" And in my heart, I knew it wasn't going to work, but I said yes. And everything went back to normal. As I roll my eyes. Nothing really changed. He still wanted to to do the things that he wanted and I still wanted to be monogamous. I wanted to 120 fall in love with Lee. I wanted to love only him and neither one of us would allow it. Because I couldn't love him, all of him, I didn't know how to love the alcoholic, I didn't know how to love the swinger, I didn't know how to love just him and just see him as a person. And that's my, I understand that now. But I wanted to. I wanted to love him. And in my way, I did. I loved him. Otherwise, I don't think I could have lived with him for 21 years if I didn't. But it was shortly after that that I realized I'm lying to myself, I'm Lying to Lee. And I remember, I waited till we were in a, we were having this moment and I just said, "Lee, you have to let me go. We don't want the same things anymore. You have to let me go, and I know we'll always be friends. We can do this." I convinced myself that I could still be his friend, that I could be OK with the choices he had made. I couldn't, but I did try. And so it was, it was interesting when I finally decided we're getting divorced. I literally 100 percent completely said "We're not having sex again," and he really struggled with that. And I had gone to California with my little sister to visit my older sister. And I just, I watched her and her husband and the way he lovingly took care of her and gave her her space and they coexisted, and yet they were still themselves. I don't understand this, how it, really? You can be yourself and be married? Huh? And in that moment I realized, when I get home, I have to make a change. And so I told Lee, "You can have the bedroom back. I'm moving into Nute's old room." That's it. And that was, that was the end of our marriage. I filed, I drew up the papers, I filed, and I had convinced myself that we could stay, we could cohabitate until Ryan graduated from high school. And I'm going to share this next story just because I lived it, and I don't mean any harm to 121 Lee at all. But I can remember I'm standing at the top of the stairs, looking down at my son and my husband, soon to be ex-husband. And I've never seen such anger/hatred on my son's face before. Lee was drunk and was just jabbing to Ryan, wouldn't leave him alone. And Ryan had a glass mug in his hand. And he knocked it down on the counter and he said, pardon my language, "Leave me the fuck alone!" What? This child of mine who had never once raised his voice in anger, almost beat the shit out of his dad. And in that moment, I knew I needed to get out. I needed to get my son out. And so I went to my realtor, "Help me find a home. I only want to use my income." And I'll be damned if within a couple of months we didn't have a home for me. And I moved out on October 17th or 18th, 2018. And, entire neighborhood came to help me move. It was fascinating and I felt terrible because Lee was drunk. He was drinking and it was a little obvious. I wonder at times how he managed to get from here to there because he would drive. But I, I don't know how he did it, because he never once got a DUI while we were married. So that was amazing, and yet it was, I couldn't believe it. There are times I still look at my home and go, "I live here? Oh." Wondering if I've made a mistake. And then I remind myself, "No, you're where you need to be." It was literally two weeks later that the judge signed our divorce decree. October 31st, 2018, and it became official November 1st, 2018, and I was like, "Oh, I'm divorced. OK, now, now what? What do divorced people do?" I knew I didn't want to start dating up right away. I felt like I needed to take care of me, get to know me. And I wanted to stay friends with Lee, but it was really hard. I learned things about him that made it really hard. But I did. I have since learned 122 that we're all doing the best we can and even Lee and I will always love him because he's the father of my children and he encouraged me to go back to school. I think if we both realized what would happen, we might not have been so quick. But, you know, it is what it is. By this point, I'm working full time. I'm learning my limits, learning to figure out how to deal with this, the constant dizziness that has never gone away. There are certain things visually I still can't do, like going to movies is one of them. I remember the first movie I went to after my stroke and that was Beauty and the Beast. I went with Nute and her cousin and they literally had to almost carry me out of the theater because it was, wow, stimulating. But it was kind of cool. "OK, I can do this." Even Lee would try to take me to do things. The one thing I wanted to do was go back to doing symphonies. And Carina Burana came. That is the most beautiful opera. But it's not an opera per say. It's like Beethoven's Ninth. It's a lot of music. And then there's a couple of arias. Beautiful. And it was so amazing to sit there and listen and to feel it, because not only did I have my earplugs in, I had my headphones on to help combat the noise, but it was beautiful. But I had to be carried out. Lee literally, I had to close my eyes and just allow him to guide me and to lead me. And I have to believe that he did that because he loved me. So I've learned how to live with my symptoms. I learned recently that most of them are from panic and I'm learning how to relax into it. A lot easier. But anyway, so now we can go back and finish the sibling thing. So on Nute's twenty first birthday, we had a big party at a mutual friend. Nute didn't want to do it at his dad's. Because Nute did not want his dad to drink, 123 and so the hope was, if we do it at a different location, dad won't drink. I don't know if it worked or not, but that's when I decided I'm going to start a profile and I'm going to start dating. Nute had a really good time. By this time, Nute had fully embraced being gay, had come out as lesbian for the most part. I think it was still kind of a struggle, but for the most part, Nute had accepted that reality. And so had mom. I started dating this guy, and the sad thing is I knew what I was doing. I was falling back into the same old patterns of "You tell me what to do and I'll do it." And at that moment, when I realized because I had said to him, we had already set up this moment to do this meeting with the siblings, "Hey, what would you be willing to sit in this with me?" "Oh, I'd be honored." But I could feel what I was doing. I wanted him to take it all from me. I didn't want to experience it. I didn't want to feel it. I didn't want any of it. I'm doing the same things. So shortly after that that I broke up with him. "It's not you, it's me" type of thing, you know. I hope I was nice about it. Actually, I'm remembering now why my sister and I became so close. So as my sister was going through her divorce, her divorces, sorry sis, she started coming up and spending time with me and then she started dating Lee's nephew who was living with us. So I got to see my sister almost every weekend and we got to be really close. It got to the point where we would rather spend time with each other than with our significant others. So I really looked forward to her coming up. I have to admit, it was a lot of fun and that's kind of where our relationship really started to change. 124 AK: This is Helen? LR: Yeah, Helen. So that was really cool. And we started having open and honest conversations about sex, that we'd never, never had before and not about what happened, but just about our sex lives. "Oh, I can actually talk about this with someone. Okay, cool." But I still couldn't be completely honest with her about what was happening in my marriage because I didn't understand what was happening. So that's the lead up to this meeting with my siblings. My little brother started talking about his abuse. And it's why I know I was seven because he told me, he mentioned how old he was. And from that, I was able to do the math. I was seven when it happened. I think the hardest part in that whole thing was when my older sister said, "I can remember walking by your room one night and you were completely naked and I knew what was happening." I didn't know how to—I honestly remember thinking, "Oh, crap, it really did happen." Until that moment, it was as though it was still just this figment, like, “Did it happen?” It became very, very real. “No, the abuse happened. You can't hide from it anymore. You can't deny it anymore. It happened. You were abused as a child. You need to do something.” I realized I needed to start talking to someone. I tried to get in to see someone. I really did. It's really hard to get mental help, I'm just saying. So I started the Master of Professional Communication Program the spring of 2020. 125 Not a week after I started, I couldn't sleep. I was having the first thoughts I had in a long time of hurting myself, not of committing suicide, but of hurting myself. I wanted the pain, the hurt, I wanted it to go away. And so I went and woke Nute, "Take me to the hospital." And spent the next eight hours there getting the help I needed, getting in to see a therapist. And through that, I was able to find a really good trauma therapist who I saw for the next, practically, 18 months. And I worked my steps in Al Anon. I got a sponsor, I embraced the program, and I embraced my spirituality and allowed myself to get to know me for the first time in my life. I can honestly say I'm grateful I did. Because by doing that, I've gotten to know my kids better. Now, I'm on this amazing journey with Nute. And it wasn't a big deal. I'll explain. The day Nute came out as transgender—I don't know why I'm crying about that, but hey, here I am. I had been joking that day, "I swear, I swear, I raised two boys. I had one of each, but I swear, I raised two boys." Just in passing, joking. That night, Nute comes home from work, "Mom, I need to tell you something." And I was like, "Do I need to brace myself?" "Maybe, Mom." "Okay, I'm ready." "Mom. I'm transgender. I think I'm transgender." "Oh, okay." I didn't react. I just said, “Okay.” Having no clue what really was going to happen. Or the amazing healing journey it would lead me on. Sorry, 126 getting all emotional again. If I hadn't have had the stroke, if I hadn't have gone back to school, I don't know that I could have been in a position to be open and honest, and be in this space where I could see Nute, and go on this journey with him. As much as I lost because of the stroke, I've gained more. As hard as it's been to accept my past, I've grown as a person because of it. Did that answer your question? AK: That was perfect. Very beautifully said. Along with, talking about Nute coming out as bisexual then lesbian then transgender, right. I was kind of curious to record your first awareness of the LGBTQ community and how your understanding has changed having a child in that community? LR: Oh my gosh, my first awareness was when I was a child. And this has just come recently as I have been on this journey. But I can remember as a kid growing-up. I don't remember when, but there was a gentleman in our neighborhood who was gay and I knew he had been abused by the neighborhood pedophile, which sounds terrible, but we had a neighborhood pedophile. I assumed that the only reason he was gay was because he had been sexually abused. I can remember almost this thought of thinking that all gay men are perverts, so only perverts were gay. That's kind of how I looked at it, and the older I got, that stereotype never really seemed to fit. “These are really decent people.” “Okay.” But I never—I almost made a point of not associating within that community because I never felt comfortable. I'm learning why I never felt 127 comfortable. But honestly, it wasn't until Nute started going to NUAMES, and one of his friends was transgender. I invited him over to our house one day, and he was just like any other person. The only difference was he was transgender. A lot of Nute's friends were either gay or straight, but it didn’t matter. They were just humans. Nute actually opened my eyes to, “Oh, there's so much more.” And I became more aware of that community. That perhaps my stereotypes are wrong and I've come to actually experience that now more. That my stereotypes were way off. But again, I couldn't have figured that out, if I wasn't willing to look at myself. And as I've been more willing to figure myself out and to accept myself, I have been more open to hearing the stories of others. But I couldn't do that. I had a hard time being in the same room with these individuals that were so open. And I really think that says something about society, because we don't want to deal with our own shit. We don't want to be around people who have. So let's ostracize them, let’s make them feel like they're bad. When, in fact, I'm the one who's not willing. But I don't realize that yet. That's why that statement by Maya Angelou was so amazing. I really want to get it right, but that was my first experience and I'm really grateful that Nute introduced me to that. AK: [In regards to the Maya Angelou quote] I was letting you pull that up first. LR: I really want to find this. AK: Go for it. LR: It is basically says, do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. I love that saying. That's like my mantra now. I just love it. 128 [“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.” Maya Angelou] That little caveat AK: I love that too, I feel like that gives a lot of grace. LR: Yeah a lot of grace. AK: I know this is partly for your autoethnography. So do you want to record anything else about that journey of learning that Nute was gay and then... LR: That'll be part of my autoethnography. AK: Okay, you'll write out. LR: Yeah, and in the paper, I'll write, “But suffice it to say, I'm still on the journey.”It's been, it's been hard. I remember my boss saying to me, "You need to grieve the loss of your daughter." And I'm thinking, "Okay, I can do that." It's not that easy. I can't just snap a finger and say, "Okay, you’re a boy." I realize how I've had to grieve. So I guess I'm going to. I've had to let go of the dreams I had for Nute as a female, of watching her carry a child, of watching her walk down the aisle in a white dress, being married to a man, of sharing certain experiences that only mothers and daughters do. I am eternally grateful that I was able to make a Sweet 16 for her because it's only for daughters and I can look at that now. Yes, it's only for daughters, but it has helped Nute figure out who she is, who he is. Nute is the only one who got to help make her own. The year Nute turned 16 is the year I had my stroke. Her grandmother was going to help me make that. 129 And she wasn't there. And I didn't want my mother to help me. So Nute and I did it together. We created Nute's Sweet 16 together. I'm beginning to realize that it doesn't matter what gender Nute is. Nute is my child and we have this moment, I get to go on this journey with him. I'm really emotional. I can't recall a time when he's been so happy and at peace with himself as when he's been on testosterone. Okay, I need to go get some tissue. I'll be right back. [Video ends for a break] AK: [Video resumes] Alright, so my last question actually stems from something you were saying the other day that I found kind of interesting. I wanted to ask you about it. You said you realized that all of your life that you were always ashamed of being a woman because you had seen being a woman, as being an object. But then you realized the other day, that you were proud to be a woman. What got you to that point and what you feel like that says about your journey? LR: I honestly believed that I was abused because I was a girl. I was less than, because that was a girl. My dad didn't love me as much because I was a girl. I felt like I was an object. I didn't realize that until later. I was embarrassed when my body started to change, going through puberty, I was embarrassed. It bothered me that I had boobs. And I felt that was something else that they can look at, you know. I did everything I could to hide myself. Until one day in high school, I was like, "Can't I dress like a girl? Can't I wear things that show that I'm a girl?" The one time I did—and I don't think my dad meant anything, I don't think, if he realized that this had happened—I think it would hurt him. 130 I remember him saying, "Aren't you ashamed of wearing that?" It was a shorter skirt, it wasn't even that short of a skirt. It was maybe six inches above my knee. And so I kept trying to pull it down. And so I rarely wore dresses after that, it pissed me off that I had to wear a dress on my mission because I felt like I was just being looked at as an object. So I hated being a woman. But I realize it's a little different than what Nute is experiencing. To be honest, I'm not quite sure when that started to change. Lee would always say I was a beautiful woman and I kept thinking in my head, "No, all you see me is someone to have sex with." Putting ideas in his head right? Yeah, especially in the beginning, that's how I felt. Then at the end, I felt the same way, but the process of getting to know myself, I can honestly say, is when things started to become more comfortable. I found a style of dress that made me comfortable to wear. And it made me happy. "Oh, wow, I look really good in this and I feel beautiful.” You know, it was still a struggle. But it really wasn't until recently. I can remember in June of this year, I went clothes shopping with my sister, and I said, "I want to look the way I feel. Oh, wow. I want to look feminine. Am I okay?" It was the first time I ever actually vocalized that and I still had my style. I am not a girly girl, and that's okay. I'm realizing that my femininity is unique to me and I'm not a dress up type of girl except for the dresses that I like to wear. It's simpler. I can also remember not too long ago, looking in the mirror, and seeing a beautiful woman and being shocked, not quite knowing what to do. "Wow. I'm beautiful and I'm a woman. Cool." 131 There was not one simple a-ha moment of, "That's right. I have achieved.” You know, it was just over time, as I got to know myself. As I took the time to accept myself, I began to see, “I'm a beautiful woman and I'm worthy of being loved. I am worthy of being a Mom. I'm worthy of having my own home. Little things.” For me, gender is very important because I've been ashamed of my gender for so long. I don't know if that answered your question. AK: It's perfect. One more thing, with this project, I know you're wanting to look into a personal rhetoric or how we speak to ourselves. I feel like you've covered that pretty well. But is there anything else that you'd like to add on that? LR: I'm not sure which is the interesting thing here. I just know that as hard as this has been to share my story, it's been freeing and liberating all at the same time. I'm beginning to realize that these brave souls who come out, who dare to be themselves, they are the true heroes in this. Because it is through the interviews that I've done within the LGBTQ+ community, that I have found, in a way, I have found my humanity. I am listening with my whole heart. I mean, hearing what they have to say. I'm seeing the individuals and not the sex, or the gender, or who they love. I see the whole person and they're beautiful. So if I were to give advice to anyone within the LGBTQ+ community, as a mother, I hope that they know they are loved. They are unique individuals. They are brave. It takes a lot of courage to be yourself in society, because we tend to try to cover up who we are. I've done that my, most of my life. I hope that they know how brave they are. And that they're not always going to be loved and appreciated, but their story will effect at least one person. And then that one person can change another person 132 or can effect another person, who can effect another person. And this is how change happens, we allow ourselves to learn and to grow and to be accepting. That's the lessons I've learned through this. Just because I was born female does not make me less. Just because you're born male does not make you less. Just because you're born gay does not make you less. We're all on this journey together and that's what this. This is teaching me and I'm trying to be open to it as hard as it is. Did I do that right? Did I answer the question? AK: That was perfect. That was beautifully said. That's all the questions I have for you, unless there's anything more you'd like to say? LR: I don't think so other than I'm grateful that I've had the opportunity. I'm grateful for those who have gone, who have come before me, who have shared their stories and helped me find my courage. I hope that it'll just continue and that we can be courageous. Part 4: 8 February 2023 AK: Today is February 8, 2023. We are at Weber State University and we are interviewing Lorrie Rands for a life sketch update. I'm Alyssa Kammerman and I'll be conducting the interview. And with me is Michael Thompson. As we kind of talked about earlier, Lorrie, I think we just kind of start where we left off, which was the last interview back in September 2021, where you were in the middle of finishing up your master’s. You were doing your capstone, was it your capstone project? Is that how you say it? LR: It was a master's thesis. AK: About kind of looking into the LGBTQ community. At that time, you did not 133 identify in the LGBTQ community but since then you've come out. I wanted to just kind of go back there and see if you wouldn't mind sharing your journey from there to now, coming out the beginning of last year. LR: The interesting thing about my master's thesis is it’s an auto-ethnography with Nute as he was transitioning. I think the hardest part of that for me was keeping a journal every day of what it was like for me to watch him transition and how hard it was – sorry [softly crying], as a mom to let go of the dreams I had for the girl I gave birth to. It was hard to write those out and to be that honest with myself. As I wrote, I realized how much of what I was writing had to do with my own sexuality. It didn't quite compute yet, but it was there. Just writing that thesis, putting everything I had into it, seeing Nute for who he is was very therapeutic for me. This whole process of doing this oral history interview back then, a year and a half ago, talking about my story, it was amazing to me how much easier it was to let go of what I was holding on to of my past, like the shame I have carried for so long. Being able to see Nute and even Ryan and just I identified as an ally, identified as “I'm that bad ass mom!” I'm like Sarah now, you know, I'm just this awesome mom who's right there. That's how I thought of myself and that didn't change. I was actually writing—I started writing my thesis in December. My sister died in November of 2021. I looked up to her. She suffered from Parkinson's, and I related to her. She understood what it was like to live with a brain issue. We would talk about our symptoms. It amazed me how similar they were, and I didn't feel alone. I felt like there was someone who understood what it 134 was like, just not having energy all the time and losing words and being tired. I could hear her as we would talk, I could hear her get tired and I know it was time to end the conversation. Her youngest had come out as transgender, so we talked about what it was like and my worries and my fears. She talked about how important it was to have a good, strong spiritual foundation for her. It was more religious, but I took it as spiritual. I tried to, as I wrote my thesis, and went to my sister's funeral, to keep all of that in mind. I had quite an intense PTSD episode right after she died. The fear of seeing my family, worrying that my perpetrator might be there; and then my mother receiving a phone call from him and accepting it in front of us was just too much. I finally went and started seeing a psychiatrist and he prescribed medication and told me it was okay to get the help you need until you don't need it anymore and then you can start to wean off it. I started seeing my therapist again. I'd kind of stopped, I hadn't needed to. But collecting the interviews within the LGBTQ+ community was a lot. I didn't realize how much it was. They all shared a similar story to mine. It just sounded so familiar. With all of that, I had this perspective as I was writing. I kept my sister close to my mind, and then I started having dreams, intense dreams. This is my story; it's kind of strange. I sit and talk to my therapist, "Why am I having these nightmares?" And I won't go into details because that's just not okay. She said to me in March of 2022, “You need to look at your own sexuality.” 135 I literally looked at her and go, "Shut up. No, I don't know what you're talking about." She was just trying to "You know, it's okay. You've looked at Nute. You've been open with Nute, now be open with yourself." I remember calling my sister after that session and just going, "I don't understand this. What she's talking about, me being bisexual, I don't know. I don't understand this." And my sister's like, "Oh, really? So, you're finally coming out?" And I went, "No, what are you talking about? No!" She reeled it back in and was, "You know, Lorrie it's okay. It's okay to be yourself. It's okay to be you." She didn't say anything beyond that. She just said it's okay to look. Later she had said she wanted to just “Congratulations, you're finally coming out,” but she had realized she had to reel it back in because I wasn't there yet. I sat with that and I just was constantly reaching out to my higher power, like, “What's wrong with me? I can't be gay.” Everything I was ever taught said it's not okay. I realized that I'd always considered gay individuals to be predators because that's what I was taught or it's what I heard. I don't know if I was taught that, but that's what my brain thought. It made that real. And so, “No, I can't. I can't. I can't, no.” And literally sitting with that and praying about it and talking with my therapist. 136 I was sitting doing one of my last sessions with my thesis advisor, the auto ethnographer. I remember sitting and going, “I'm so confused. I think I identify within this community.” I remember her saying, “It's okay. No matter what. It's okay. It's okay to just be you.” I finished that and I went and sat down and talked to Sarah. I said, “Sarah, I think I might be gay.” Sarah went, "Yeah. And? It’s about time you figured this out.” I just sat there and looked at her like, "What? How long have you known?" "Oh, for a long time. I have a really good gaydar." I wasn't ready for that. Later that day I called my sister and we started talking and she said, "Are you finally coming out to me?" "Yeah." "Well, good. It's about damn time!" I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, “How is it that everyone knew about me?” It was strange. I talked to my boys and Nute was, "Mom. I could have told you that. Every day you seem to be more and more lesbian. And, you know, you act more…" I just, "Okay. All right.” Ryan was like, "Mom, I just want you to be happy, okay?" Since being that honest and open with my kids, we've had the most amazing conversations. They have just been open with me. It's weird. I didn't realize... I thought we were pretty open with one another, but now we're even more so. It's interesting. 137 That was the end of March, beginning of April. I decided, okay, if I'm going to do this, let's just go all in and I will tell my parents. My birthday is April 7th, and they wanted to take me out to dinner. I went out to my sister's house and I said, “Okay, let's meet somewhere out here,” so I could spend the night at her house and not have to be as alone as I was. I don't talk to my kids about these things. They don't know all of that. We went to this dinner and I remember sitting in the car with Helen before going in and just saying a prayer that I'd be able to say what was needed. And it still amazes me to this day. I didn't beat around the bush. I just came out and said, “Mom and Dad, I'm gay.” My mom asked me if I was still a girl. “Yeah, if I wasn't, I would have said I was transgender mom.” Then she looked at me like, “Wow, I'm so surprised.” I looked at her and said, “Mom, this shouldn't come as a shock to you. We've had these conversations before.” I have no memory of these conversations at all. Those are the words that came out of my mouth. The look on my mother's face was one of anger. Almost like, ‘How dare you remind me of that?’ Then it was gone just that quickly. I knew in that moment, okay, that was confirmation that I did have these conversations with my mother when I was younger. She's not willing to accept that and that's okay. I have never talked about it with her since. Then I asked "Guys, do you have any questions?” 138 My dad said, “Now that you like girls, are you still going to be a good mom?" I looked at him and I said, "Dad. Where's this question coming from?" "Well, I don't know. I just don't know." "Dad. I'm a better mom because I'm honest with myself and my kids." And I let it go. I remember thinking, what a dumb question. I was a good mom before I came out as gay. But now you question my motherhood and if I can be a good mom because all of a sudden, I'm gay. Like I've been gay this whole time, y'all. I just wasn't there. So that was strange. That was just a strange moment and triggering for both my sister and I. I was glad that we were able to spend the night. We went home and got drunk. I probably shouldn't have, but I was just… I finished writing my master's thesis and it was beautiful. In my mind, it was… I don't know. I felt like I had shown that it's okay to go through this journey with your kids, to see them for who they are, and I look at how much Nute has changed since then. I know that this process of writing that thesis, of looking and being honest with myself about my feelings about him transitioning, how hard it was. It was hard to let go of those dreams and to accept Nute as he is. But now he's just so comfortable and confident in himself, and it's really cool to see. He had top surgery in October of ‘22. I know I'm jumping ahead, but he said, "Mom, you want to see?" after he had started to heal. I was like, "Yeah, but…" I was terrified. How am I going to feel? Am I going to… Because I kept thinking, “Is he going to regret this? Is he going to be sad and just-is this right?” 139 When he was showing me, I kept thinking, “I can do this, I can let go of my expectations.” When he finally had everything ready for me to see, my first thought was “His body finally matches him.” That was my thought. There was no, “Oh, you look strange.” It was “Now you match.” It’s been a good journey. Finishing my master's thesis, I realize I worked my ass off to get that damn degree because I started it right when COVID started. I had to do the damn thing online, and I don't do well online, it frustrates me and it's hard to zoom. Being able to walk, and I think the best part was having my boys walk with me. I was talking to my advisors about it, “Do I need to get special permission?” “Just show up with them, tell them that you need the help and it'll work out.” They sat with me on the stage and when it was time, they walked on either side of me; and I realize I would not have been able to walk without them. They were a huge part of me getting that. They supported me. They encouraged me. It was kind of fun going to school at the same time as them. I just remember thinking afterwards how amazing it was that I had the privilege of that moment with my kids. Then I decided, ‘Let's start dating.’ No idea what it was going to look like. I think what's interesting is going through this process. It was one thing to come out as gay. It's another thing to live as a lesbian, to actually be honest with myself. It's hard because of the conditioning I grew up with. The hard part about this is knowing what to share, because I recognize it's my story. But my parents 140 are still alive and some of the things that my parents did out of fear. I recognized that now, especially my mom, was terrified. It was hard being compared to my pedophile brother because I was different. That is one of the only memories I have, is being compared that because I was gay I might end up like him; so of course I will do everything in my power not to be, because I don't want to be like him. I don't want to hurt anyone. All of these thoughts are going through my head and I'm thinking, “Man, can I really date? What's this going to be like?” But I decided to go for it. Literally, the moment I graduated, I finished my thesis, I started doing the dating apps and started chatting with women. It was strange. It was surreal, almost. Then I started chatting with Angela. She was so easy to talk to, and we both come from the same place-married to a man, and came out later in life. I decided on our first date that I was going to be honest and just, “Okay, this is where I'm coming from. This is my baggage. This is the stuff I'm working through. You either take it or leave it type of thing.” She started sharing with me and being honest with me, and it was interesting, that date. It was only a couple of hours because I was tired. I was so nervous and my nerves just sapped my energy. A couple of hours after, “I have to go home, I am so tired.” The part I remember the most about that day is walking from my car, seeing her standing by the back door in front of this restaurant there on 25th Street. I didn't know what I was feeling. My heart skipped a beat. I didn't 141 understand, but there was this sense of, “Oh, shit. What are you getting yourself into?” Then the second date was so easy. We just talked and talked and walked around the municipal building in Ogden. And sat and talked, and she mentioned, "I really want to kiss you." I was. "Not here! We are in public." I'm like, “We’re in public. It's not safe,” type of thing; so, I formulated a plan in my head where I could feel safe and kiss this woman that I was really attracted to but didn't understand what I was feeling. God I'm blushing. This has never happened, ever! This is the first time in my life I've ever blushed. It's weird because I'm not embarrassed. I'm just. I've only ever blushed when I was embarrassed. I had this plan in my head to just stand by my car-that it's a little less crowded and there's not all these looky loos. All of these memories started flooding back. The memory of my first kiss with my ex-husband and thinking, “This is it? That's all there is? What's the big deal?” I remember thinking like, "Man, this is kind of disappointing." I'm not knowing any better at the time because kissing her was what everyone talked about. It's like, “Oh, this is, wow! I don't want this to stop. This is amazing. Okay, I get it now. Now it makes sense.” I remember in the car calling my sister and just giddy, "I just kissed a girl. And I really, really liked it." Just having her, being on this journey with her, it's been really nice being able to talk to her and her just going, "It's so amazing that you're going through this." 142 I would call her and talk about what I was feeling-this like weird feeling in my stomach, and I felt strange and I didn't understand what I was feeling. She said, "Lorrie that's what being in love feels like." "Oh, this is, okay." "You've never experienced this?" "Apparently not." What I wasn't prepared for was everything else. All of the fears and the worries and the “You're a terrible person because you're gay.” All of these thoughts started coming and hitting me. I look at Angela and realize how attracted I was to her and think, “God, this isn't okay. I shouldn't be feeling this way,” yet realizing that I do. I allowed myself to realize I am attracted to a certain sort of woman. That has taken me almost a year of dating to figure out. Thank God that it's Angela, which works out really well. It's crazy and it's hard. It's hard because the way I was raised, I often wonder… I know in the first interview I talked about the hypnotherapist I went to see. As I have gone through this last year, I often wonder if that wasn't a type of conversion therapy. The therapist I was seeing before him, I honestly think I tried to come out to her. I tried to tell her that I don't understand what I'm feeling. I'm attracted to girls. I don't get it. Her freaking out and seeing that reaction, I thought. “Okay, this isn't safe to talk about.” So, I created what was safe, which led to seeing this damn doctor. He was awful. I have to wonder if-I don't know. My memories are still really sketchy, and yet they also make more sense. 143 I can remember when I was between the ages of 12 and 14, I thought ties were the coolest thing, and I wanted to wear them all the time. I taught myself how to tie a tie. There was no Google back then. I had to learn by doing, but it was so cool. When it was just me, I would wear a tie. A few months into dating Angela, I asked if she'd be willing to go through my closet with me. I got rid of every dress. I haven't gotten rid of them. They're sitting in my closet because I want to give them to a good place. They're really nice dresses. I went through my closet piece by piece and got rid of everything that was really girly and dressy. I remember we went thrift shopping because it makes more sense. I started just picking out things that were masculine, yet fit. One of the things was "I think I want to buy a tie." "Okay. You be you, you buy a tie," and I remember wearing it, putting it on for the first time, terrified. We looked to find the type of shirt I like, like long sleeves that I could wear a tie with. I remember wearing that for the first time out in public. I was terrified, yet I felt so confident. Now it's like my go to when I'm nervous. I bought this in Venice. It's my Venice tie. Bit by bit, I started to embrace this part of me. I found myself falling in love and not understanding what I was feeling. Terrified, yet not wanting to just walk away because I was scared. Becoming more and more confident in the way I felt, yet terrified. What does this look like? As things started happening politically, I thought, “I have to hurry up and get married because I might not have that opportunity when Roe v Wade was overturned. They're going to take away my right to get married. I have to hurry.” It 144 didn't feel right, to hurry into something like that. I wasn't ready, and neither was she. But there is that fear and… I don't know… I have to gather my thoughts. If you have questions, now's the time. AK: Sure. I've got a bunch of follow up questions. MT: A couple of questions. When you started dating or chatting with the women on the different apps, did any of them have an issue with how recently you had come out? LR: One of them did. One of them was just shocked. "Really? Huh." They'd been out since they were 15. She was a little, "Wow, this is strange." She was in a relationship and just wanted friends. I'm like, "I'm not okay with that. I can talk to you, but I'm not going to date you" sort of thing. I tried to be honest and open about my reality-that I've only been out for a short time-without actually saying it too loudly, because I didn't want to scare these women away either. I realized a lot of them, about half of the women I talk to, have come out later in life. I didn't quite feel so strange, if that makes sense. It was kind of a gift, but there was only one that actually was openly said that, "What is it with you women? You have been closeted your whole life." You know, this is my experience. AK: LR: Is that like a stigma with that, then with some women? I think it’s just a misunderstanding it. It's the way I was raised and the way Angela was raised. There's a stereotype, and you need to fall within this stereotype, 145 especially growing up in the religion I did; the culture that I did. The religion and the culture are the same thing almost. There's this expectation that a girl will grow up, date men, get married to a man, because that's the only way to be saved; and to have children. You have to have this eternal family. That's all that matters. I can remember how disappointed my dad was when a lot of his kids left the church. I learned early how to play the game, how to protect myself. This is something I'm just coming to realize. I knew I couldn't be myself. I wanted to be accepted. So, I learned how to pay attention. If I act this way, okay, they're okay. I pay attention to how others react. Then I know if I'm doing it right, because it didn't feel right to me. It's what feels right to everyone else. That's how I lived my life. I'm supposed to get married. Was I attracted to him? No, kind of? Because he has some feminine qualities. I realize that. But that's where it ended. But I'm supposed to get married. I'm supposed to have children. I'm supposed to get married in the temple. Okay, that’s what I'm going to do. Everyone was happy. It was interesting to me, looking back. There were quite a few women in my life who now I realize I was attracted to. It's why I had my nervous breakdown on my mission. When I realized that there was one of my companions and I was attracted to her. Oh, my gosh. I understand now why that happened. I remember very, very vividly having this feeling. I don't know if I talked about this in the other interview. There was a moment when I looked at her and I felt this strange feeling in my body. I didn't understand it, and it scared the shit out of me because it 146 reminded me of earlier moments that I didn't understand, and it scared me. “You can't ever feel this way again,” and clamping down even tighter on that part of myself. Squashing it. Never being able to talk about it. It was less than a month later that I completely broke down. I recently saw a picture of her, about a month ago, and I just. Wow, I was really attracted to her. It's just weird. MT: I have a question, but I don't want to cut you off. Is that okay? It kind of goes along with the other one. As you mentioned, you are more masculine presenting. LR: Yes. MT: Did you find as you were dating, that you focused more on women who are more feminine presenting? Or do you even notice? LR: Oh, I do now. When I first started, I didn't notice, but now there is. Okay, you guys are good at this. Holy crap. This is so weird for me. Yeah, I am. It is so much fun watching Angela get ready in the morning, and she makes everything look good. She has the most eclectic wardrobe; dresses and pants and... Yeah. I am very, very attracted to the more feminine presenting. That's Angela. The good news is Angela's attracted to the more masculine presenting, which is me. She thinks I look really good in my ties and finds it very sexy, which is really nice because this is who I am. In that regard, we meet each other. I hadn't thought of it. That's a good question. AK: Good question. Thank you. I have a few questions that I could ask right now, but I'll just start with going back a little bit. You were mentioning how you were worried about coming out, partly because your mother compared you to your 147 brother. Was that from when you were a kid or did she do that after you came out? LR: When I was a kid. Since I've come out, we have never had a really deep conversation. We don't have those conversations, my mother and I, that stopped when I was a teenager. It was not a safe place to talk to my mom. I realized I could not have those conversations with her, and I still can't; mostly because I don't think she is-this is just my opinion, but I don't think she's being honest with herself either. I'm going to leave it at that. That part's been interesting looking back on my childhood. I loved hanging with the boys. My friends were all boys. I remember we would run around. I was always doing the masculine things. I just loved hanging out with the boys, and every time I was in a dress, I felt just like, “Oh, you know, I don't want to wear this.” I remember in the fifth grade my first crush. I didn't understand it at the time, but she had long black hair past her shoulders, and she was just beautiful. I wanted, in my fifth-grade mind, I wanted to be just like her. No boy ever caught my eye like that, now that I think about it. Not one, but wow, this girl. I really wanted to be her friend. She was way too out of my league. I didn't understand. To me, I was just this tomboy, I don't really fit anywhere. Every time I tried to be feminine, I felt so wrong. “Why can't I just be myself? Why can't I just be me playing basketball?” I loved it. I wasn't really good at it in the sense that, I was a good player, but I have a hard time being a good team player. I don't know why. Maybe because we were all girls. I don't know, but I felt at home on the 148 basketball court; like I could be myself. That was about it, but these little memories have started to surface. I hope I answered the question. AK: Yeah, definitely. I hope you don't mind me asking this, but I remember from one of your last interviews you talked about how right before your mission, there was a boy that you really liked and you thought about how he was the one who you wanted to lose your virginity to. Now that you have come out-how does that kind of get into your narrative? I know you mentioned that a lot of that has changed. LR: Yeah. AK: You know, the understanding with that. LR: Here's the interesting thing. My sister sent me a picture of… I'm going try to find it, so be patient with me. That's him. His name was Lance. He could still be alive for all I know. I realize as I looked at this picture, that's my best friend. That's all it is. Everything I was feeling was on his end. I was not physically attracted to him in the sense that I didn't understand what I was feeling. I could feel his attraction. I'm glad we never kissed. My first kiss I don't remember. I've completely blocked it out. I know I kissed him on our date, but I don't have any memory of it. That whole day I have no memory of, which I find sad. My very first date with a boy, I have no memory of. That was interesting to see that picture. She sent it to me after I come out and being able to look at it. “Oh my God, he was my best friend.” That's how I saw him. I didn't understand it at the time because I was supposed to be attracted to men. I thought that that feeling was attraction. I know better now, but 149 you know that that was it. That was interesting. The other interesting thing is that's me at seven. AK: That's cute. LR: I haven't changed much. The best one is, look how miserable I look in that dress. That was my sister's wedding, my oldest sister, the one who died. I was seven years old when she got married, and I was one of her flower girls. Seeing those pictures was… I hadn't come out when I got those pictures, but I was looking at myself going, wow. I didn't like being in that dress. LR: It's a really good question. I realize now he really was my best friend. Even Lee was my best friend, and that's all I wanted him to be; but I was supposed to get married, so I said yes. I wasn't in love with him, and I think I knew it, but I didn't understand. That eats at me. I spent 21 years with a man I was not in love with because I was supposed to. There were choices that I made because I had to play the part. I was trying to find out what that part was, and I'm realizing now what the difference between what was real and what was all in my head. I had a way of numbing myself. In those moments I could do just about anything, which is sad looking back. AK: Thank you. Going back to that fear surrounding coming out. Was there something or someone that helped you overcome that fear that you would become like your perpetrator? LR: Working with a therapist was a big one. I know I mentioned my Al-Anon program in the last interview. Working that, working the fourth and fifth step. The fourth step is doing a personal inventory, looking at my resentments. Then talking them 150 over with someone, sharing them with my higher power and with someone else had a huge-it helped pave the way for me to honestly look at myself. What's interesting is now that I've finished my master's program, now that I've had a good six months, of relax time, I started a new 12 step. It's still AlAnon, but it's actually working. The 12 steps with the big book, which is the Alcoholics Anonymous book. It’s called BBA. Big Book Awakening. I have to look at what the first step is because I always forget. Forgive me while I Google. “Admit that I was powerless over alcohol and that my life has become unmanageable.” We spent six weeks on that first step, and I've been doing this since the beginning of the year. Looking at myself, looking at what my addiction, I'm not addicted to alcohol; to drugs. I'm addicted to my own chaos, my own thoughts, my OCD and obsessing control. I learned how to control my environment, how to create this semblance of control so that I could be what everyone expected of me. I'm really trying to answer your question, but working with this program, learning to really look at myself has helped me to recognize that one, and most importantly, I never want to harm another individual the way I was harmed. It is not within my nature. I am not that person. The thought of causing that much pain to another person, it doesn't compute; and it hurt. It physically hurts me to even think about. I have come to recognize that being gay does not equate to me being like him, because I'm not. I've come to that realization through a lot of self-reflection, doing the 12 steps, working with a therapist and finding my sense of spirituality and having a 151 higher power that I can rely on. Letting go of the higher power that I was raised with, the God that I was taught to believe in-this God of fear. A God of hate. I don't know how else to put it. The God I was raised to believe in hated anyone who was not perfect. What kind of a god is that? Not any God I want to have in my life. I realize that my relationship with a higher power is between me and him, and has nothing to do with anyone else. I've been able to really look at myself. I still, sometimes every morning, have to, “It's okay to be gay. It's okay to be me.” It makes me sad. It's a long about way of answering the question. It's not just one thing. It's the network I have created to help myself, to support me. That has helped me come to that realization that that's just not who I am. AK: Sounds like your sister Helen has been really important. Little bit more about her is she part the LGBTQ community? LR: I'm not going to out anyone. AK: Ok. LR: She has her own story. That's basically where I'm going to leave that. I'm not saying either way. AK: Okay. LR: What's interesting is we've been able to have honest conversations. When I told her that I'd finally gone through my closet, she goes, “You know, I never understood why you wore dresses. You hated them.” Well, okay. Thanks for your honesty, sis. We've always been close, even when we hated each other in junior high and weren't nice to each other. We were close. I mean, these the pictures 152 that my niece sent of my sister's wedding, there's Helen and I. You know, we're just together. We to this day, twice a week, we call each other, we talk and when we don't have that opportunity, we really miss it. I was going to Italy for a week. I didn't talk to her and I didn't even wait, I got home the next day and I was, “Hey sis, we need to talk.” It was nice to hear her voice. She has been important and I'm grateful that we've been able to be there for one another. AK: You obviously have a lot more questions, but it has been an hour. LR: Yes. Let's pause right now. [recording stops] [recording resumes] AK: One other question I was kind of curious about. As you're talking about coming out and just kind of the experience of being honest with yourself, letting yourself date and feel attracted to women. You keep saying, it's crazy, crazy. I want to know a little more about kind of what that means for you. What is it, that's-? LR: What's crazy? AK: Does that make sense? LR: Yeah, it actually does. I know it doesn't seem like it should make sense, but it does. The crazy part is I feel like a teenager going through this experience, that I was supposed to have as a teenager, but wasn't allowed to have. I suppose I could have, but I saw what happened to those who didn't fall in line and do what they were supposed to. So, I created the persona that I was supposed to be and ran with that. It's crazy to have all of these experiences, to be in love, to feel 153 attraction. There are moments when I think about Angela or I look at Angela and that takes my breath away. That's a first for me. Actually wanting to be close to Angela, wanting to be close to another person. It's hard not to compare, but I often will find myself comparing what I have now with what I had with my ex-husband. I didn't like it when he touched me in any way, unless he was comforting me. I was okay with that. Otherwise, don't touch me. I was not comfortable. He wanted me to be a certain way, and I was never comfortable. He really liked it when I dressed up and I hated it. It was a chore for me. It's crazy now that all these things that I recall he wanted, now I want too. I didn't want them when I was with him. I didn't understand why I didn't want them. I understand now. I was with the wrong gender. I’m not just talking about sex. I'm talking about that connection. I want to be close to her. I want to hold her hand. I want to spend time with her. When we were dating, he was my best friend. I love spending time with him. That all changed. The crazy is understanding what it means to have a connection with another person. Wanting to grow that connection. Feeling love; feeling attraction. I'm almost 49 years old and I'm allowing myself to have this for the first time. That's crazy that it has taken this long, yet it happened for me when it was supposed to-when I was ready to accept me. It's interesting. I went and sat with my therapist, after I had I come out. I talked to Sarah; I talked to my sister. I had an appointment with her the following Monday, so that was over the weekend. The following Monday, I sit in her office and I said, "How long have you known?" 154 She said, "From the moment you walked into my office two years ago." "Oh, so you've been waiting." "Yeah, but you had to come to it on your own." The patience that these individuals in my life have had to allow me to get there on my own. Even Sarah had said, “It's not my place. You had to get there on your own.” Not one of the individuals that I interviewed that I've come out to has been surprised. Mostly it's, "It's about damn time." That's the crazy-I feel like a teenager sometimes, but I'm not. AK: You mentioned Angela had a similar background with you, not only with coming out a little bit later in life, but also being raised. Would you be willing to tell me a little bit more about her background? LR: Well, it's not my story to tell. It's hard to know what is okay to talk about and what's not. What I'll say is we both grew up in the same culture and the same religion. We both were married to a man, and it was after our divorce that we came to the realization that we're gay. That's where our similarities are. The rest is her story to tell. I can only speak to that. AK: That makes sense. I had a few questions about your past, with your family and such. Do you have any questions that you've been planning to ask too? MT: You and Angela have been dating since- LR: Our first date was June 16th. I know the exact date. MT: My questions were how have your boys embraced Angela, and how have Angela's kids embraced you? 155 LR: This is where the similarities are very different. Angela's children have a closer relationship with their dad. For the most part they have a dad in the picture, so they're still getting used to their mom dating. It's been a little difficult-at least from my perspective, I can't speak for them-but from my perspective, it's been a little strange for them to see their mom dating. Especially dating a woman and being happy, because even they have mentioned how happy she is. I'm just the woman that their mom is dating, and all I really want to be in their life is their friend. They have a dad, they have a mom. They don't need a third parent. That's how I look at it. My boys, on the other hand; there's a person in their life who cares. An adult, parental figure who actually shows up. It was interesting, when Nute had his surgery Angela's first thought was, “I need to get him a care package and make sure he gets that before his surgery.” I helped put it together. We put together this care package and I gave it to Nute, and he just, "No one has ever given me a care package before, this is really cool." For my boys, it's taken some time to build that-especially Ryan-to build the trust, like you're not just going to run away. My boys look at her as though they really like her. As much as I hate to say it, my boys really don't have a father. They do, but he shows up on his terms, not what they need. That's just how he is. It makes it difficult. I hope I answered your question. MT: Yeah. AK: Speaking of Nute, it sounds like his transition was really influential to your coming 156 out story. How has learning about his transition and watching him go through that process, how has that helped you kind of understand your own process? Maybe even being a little kinder to yourself as you've gone through some of these changes as well? LR: There was a moment, and it happened right around the time I was really coming out to myself. I was standing at the top of my stairs looking down, Nute was coming home standing by the front door and the thought hit me; like someone had just slapped me. I had this thought of, “Please don't be yourself so you can be safe.” It took me aback. “Where was this thought coming from?” Then it just, “Oh, my God, I'm not talking about Nute. I'm talking about myself.” I learned that very, very young in order to be safe, I couldn't be myself. Once I had that thought, because Nute has always been very independent from the moment he was conceived. He's had this independent streak. He knows what he wants and he embraced it. There's something I've discovered as I've done these interviews-that there's a process that, especially trans individuals, go through, of coming to the realization of, “Oh, I'm trans- okay.” Nute came out as bisexual when he was 16, and then lesbian, and then transgender. That's normal. It's not unusual, but it was this evolution. Each portion of that, I could see how it fit and how he related to it. When he came out as transgender, it didn't shock me. As I mentioned, I was shocked that I wasn't shocked. One of the questions we ask in our interviews have been, “Who are some of your queer icons?” Nute is one of mine. It's strange that my kid is one of my 157 heroes, but once he knew who he was, he embraced it and has not looked back; and the confidence that I see is so empowering. It did help to watch him embrace who he is. It did help to be honest with myself as he started his transition, to talk about my fears, to write about them. To share them with my advisers and to look at them for what they were. Mine. They had nothing to do with Nute, but everything to do with me. Him coming out, him being honest with himself, did have a huge impact on me. It's one of the reasons that I love oral histories. There's so much to learn and we can learn a lot about ourselves as we listen to other people's stories. I had no idea in the beginning how much these stories would touch me. There was a moment in Andrea Flores's interview. She talked about just embracing who she was as a lesbian. She glowed, and it struck me. “God, I want that.” At the time I didn't understand what I wanted, but I look back and go, “I wanted to be brave like her and just be myself.” I know again, I'm answering these questions in a really strange way, but Nute has impacted me in ways beyond just... It would never have occurred to me that a child could have that much impact on a parent, yet he has, and so have all the other individuals I've interviewed for this. AK: I was thinking about how during your first or second date with Angela, when guys wanted to kiss and you were afraid to do that in public. How has coming out as lesbian changed the way that you interact with your environment? Do you feel that fear very often? LR: Yeah, all the time. I'm afraid to just be me in public. That's why it was so hard to 158 embrace the way I wanted to dress, like I have to justify to myself, and to the world. I think it's okay. I'm still a woman; I'm not pretending to be a guy. This is just who I am. That scares me-terrifies me. The best example I can give is this: When I'm was out in public with my sister and needed help, I had no problem grabbing her arm and relying on her to help me get from point A to point B. I struggle doing that with Angela because I don't see Angela as my sister. Angela is more than that and other people can see that. I can't hide it. It's obvious that I'm in love with this woman. There's this sense of like, “God are we safe doing this? Is it okay to have my arm around her? And I'll try to just not hold her hand?” Often, I want to hold her hand while I'm hanging on to her arm because it's comforting, and I'm afraid to do that. I will say that it was really nice in Venice walking the streets. Not once was I afraid. It's just here. MT: Do you think that's because of the culture here in Utah, or because there's people, that you might run into? LR: Actually, it's both. It's about 60/40. 60 culture, 40 people I might run into, because I'm realizing at this point I don't give a damn. I have lived for so long hiding, I just don't care anymore. Yet I'm terrified of being harassed for being myself, for loving a woman; being me. I know that is culture. AK: Have you run into any harassment? LR: Ironically, no. There's the fear of it. It can be very stifling. What's interesting is 159 Angela doesn't feel that way. She's like, “I don't give a damn. I've lived my life all this time. I'm just going to be me.” So, she'll grab my hand and I have to just be, "Okay, I'm good." It's one of the things I love about her. There was a moment when we were having lunch with my sister and her husband out at Farmington Station. We went, and there's that fountain. We were all sitting, and all of a sudden, “Sweet Caroline” came on, because they play music, especially when they start the fountain. She got up, and she goes, "I have to move to this. I'm going to start just to dance." There were two thoughts that went through my head. And the first one was, “Oh my God, I can't believe she's doing this.” The second was, “Am I really just going to sit here or am I going to join her?” So, I got up and I joined her and it was really quite freeing to just be, “This is so cool.” We've had moments where we've taken pictures. She loves taking pictures. We're doing a selfie and we've had people, “Can I take a picture? Let me take that. You guys look so cute together.” Little things like that. The first time I told her that I loved her, we had just finished paddle boarding. I had just paddle boarded for the first time on the water since my stroke. I hadn't been on the water. I love the water. I love swimming, I love water skiing. I love the water, and I haven't done anything like that in years. I was so happy and felt the sense of like, “Look at me. Look what I can do.” This woman was noticing we were struggling because I was so tired and dizzy and I needed help getting back up to the car. Angela was trying to help me and get the paddleboard. It's a lot, and this woman noticed. “Can I help you guys 160 grab the paddle board?” As Angela helped me and this woman looked over at us and, "It's so cute seeing two people so in love." We'd only been dating for a month, and we both looked at each other like, wow. As we got back to the car, she asked if she could take our picture because we were so cute. It was so just amazing to see such love. My mind was just blown. It occurred to me in that moment, “I love this woman.” I turned to her and literally at the same time we said, "I love you." Okay, it's not just me, she's feeling it too. There have been moments of just people seeing us together. They see how we feel about each other because it's a little obvious, and the people we've encountered it isn’t scary. There's always that fear in the back of my head that there's going to be that one person that's going to go, “How dare you?” You know, because that's how I was raised. Even though the world is changing, it hasn't changed that much. So, it's been a struggle to be able to be okay and to just be myself in public, to show affection in public. Not because I don't want to. I'm just terrified. AK: Speaking of which, you had started talking about Roe v Wade. That was overturned. You were so afraid that you wouldn't be able to get married, but you guys were not quite ready to get married. I want to hear more about that story, because obviously you're engaged now. So it feels like that's kind of a catalyst in your relationship. Was that correct? LR: Well, I can remember, I've been divorced for four years, four and a half years, going on five. I'm a lot more ready to get married because I've had a long time of being single, and I found someone I want to spend the rest of my life with. 161 When Roe v Wade happened, it was 76, 74. I was a baby or hadn't been born yet, to give you an idea. For my entire life, it's been a reality that a woman could get the health care she needed without having to go fight tooth and nail to get it. To have that taken away, to have the thought of having the right to birth control taken away and then the thought not being able… It didn't matter to me in 2015 when the Marriage Equality Act happened. It didn't matter to me. I wasn't out. I was married to a man. So what? Yay, they can get married. You know, that's how I looked at it. It's about damn time, but that's all I thought about it. But when Roe v Wade was overturned, the reality was, look what they're setting up to do here. Before you know it, they're going to take away birth control and the right to birth control and the right for us- us meaning queer folk-to get married. That scared me, but my thought was, well, we have to hurry up. Since then, Congress has passed the whatever it is bill. It's not perfect, but at least it gives to me the right to marry who I would. That has kind of put that in the-okay, now we can take our time. There's no rush because I realize it doesn't matter to me when I marry Angela. I just want to marry her and I will wait till she's ready. Am I ready now? Absolutely. But I've had a lot of time to get ready, and I realize I just want to marry her. I don't care how long it takes. You know, I really don't. I did realize that I couldn't think of a better place to propose than Venice, which is why I chose to propose there. We'll always have that, however long it takes. It's a scary thing when you've been hurt so much to open yourself up again to that reality of getting married and with the possibility that it might not last. 162 Having gone through a divorce, it makes that becomes very real. It's not just this happens to other people. It does happen, it's happened to me, so it could happen again. And do I really want to put myself out there and be that vulnerable again? The answer I have come up with is, yes, it's scary and it scares the shit out of me to be this vulnerable with someone. But it's also worth it because I'm seeing the possibilities and they're really cool. AK: I remember when we were interviewing people together for your thesis project, we talked a lot about different clubs and support groups, especially the older gentleman Larry. I was curious, have you looked into those at all? Has that been a part of your journey at all? LR: No, not as much as-like Angela, yes, very much so. There's a lesbian support group on Facebook that I belong to, but I don't interact much with them. A lot of it is because I'm still trying to figure out me, and it's uncomfortable still. Which is weird. It's still very uncomfortable to allow myself to be that open with strangers. It's one thing to be open with those I've known and you know, I interact with, but… I wish I could explain it in a better way. I realize my support group isn't based on someone's sexual orientation. It's based on what feels right to me. That's my sister, and that's my children and the friendships that I have gathered over the years. That's the support group I kind of clung to. I do think that, like Ogden Pride is an amazing organization, and one day I wouldn't mind being a part of it. But as of right now, it's-I have to do things. I have to do it in a way that's right for me. That's slowly coming to know myself as I am and just being okay with that. 163 AK: Do you feel like those-couple of hard questions-but do you feel like coming out has changed or enriched the way that you see the world/friends if that make sense? Just the way that you were experiencing it/people. That's like five or ten questions I'm sorry. LR: Only in the sense that because now I can be more honest with myself, I feel like I can see people be more accepting of others and not jump to judgment or I'm more aware of when I am. It becomes habit to-when you start down that path of judgment, it becomes a habit of when you first meet someone, you have to form an opinion of them, you judge them. I've been more conscious of that and then more, “I don't know them, can you lay that aside and give yourself the opportunity to get to know them and then decide?” And letting go of expectations that I have of others and myself and just going and having experiences instead of expectations. Which has been hard, but coming out has allowed me and this has given me more of an opportunity to see and be aware of how my expectations have clouded my experiences. So, for instance, going to Italy without any expectations or when they do crop up, set this aside and just be in the moment. Being in the moment has been the most impactful, because when I was living the life that I was living that was not my own- I was living according to others expectations. So now it's if I'm in the moment, I don't have to worry about expectations because I'm in the moment and I'm taking it as it comes. I think my best example and kind of sums up my whole experience in a way- when I was in Agordo, Italy in the province of Bologne, which is in the 164 Dolomites, which is part of the Alps. I didn't know it was part of the Alps. It's kind of cool. Which is probably a town that my grandfather visited because it's three kilometers away from the town he was born in. So I'm sure he visited there occasionally. I had a plan to that the next morning-we got there on Tuesday and spent the night-and I had planned on getting up and going walking more. But I was so tired, and so I was, “Is it okay if we just sit here and watch, just look at these mountains.” I started to do some of my homework for my 12 step program that I brought with me, and this thought hit me. This place. This area is where a lot of the trauma started. My grandfather abused my mother and my grandmother. Okay. That perpetuated: my mother didn't abuse me in the sense like my perpetrator did. But having been abused herself, it trickles down. As I'm sitting there looking out, I'm realizing I am where it all began and I have the opportunity to heal. To become the woman that my higher power knows that I can. To be myself, to be authentic. How amazing is that? And it brought tears to my eyes. That happened because I took the moment to be in the moment and watch as the mist would come and obscure the mountains and then 20 minutes later would dissipate. Then 20 minutes later, the mist would come back and hide the mountain. It was just this evolving thing that happened all morning long until the sun was up more; like it's like a metaphor for life. Things happen and change and it's ever evolving. But there's a moment of clarity that happens that I realize I can either accept that moment of clarity and run with it or keep hiding from it. And I'm really trying now to accept who I am, to accept the reality that I am completely in 165 love with a woman. I want to marry her. I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I want to grow old with her and, it feels more real to me. AK: That's beautiful. Another question comes to mind. I hope you don't mind if I ask. LR: Go ahead. AK: You keep saying how much you want to marry Angela. What is this marriage for you? What is the significance of that? I know some people say, oh, she's 54. You know, you guys are still together. But for you, it's important, why? LR: You know, honestly, I don't think I've ever really thought about it in terms of, until this moment, why it's important. I can remember as a little girl wanting to marry the person I loved. Wanting to be in a relationship that was genuine and true and loving, because I didn't know what that looked like. My parents have been together for more than 50 years, but I don't think I ever really saw love. Not unconditional love, which is kind of sad. When I proposed, she knew I was going to. I have not kept it a secret that I want to get married. I realized that the proposal was more of a commitment. Commitment that I want to be with her. I want to spend my life with her. And however long it takes, it doesn't matter. It's the one thing I always aspired to be-a good wife. A good partner. A good mom. And now I have an opportunity to be all three. Because I wasn't a good partner. I was a good wife. I wasn't a good partner. How could I have been? I wasn't in love with them. A lot of it stems from the, you know, the how I was raised and the expectation. But it's so much more than that. It really is. It's interesting thinking about it now. It's for me, one of the… It's more than just a piece of paper. Even if we don't legally get married, it's 166 having that moment of commitment to one another, where it's in front of our friends and family and we commit to one another, that is what matters to me. Not the paper, not the legality of it. The commitment. AK: Perfect. My last few questions are mostly wrapping up questions. Do you have any others? LR: I don't. AK: Okay. Is there anything we haven't covered that would be important to you? LR: No, it's more just kind of a wrap up thing, so, okay. AK: Yeah, I guess the one question I had concerning coming out, I mean with friends, it sounds like most of them were supportive. Was that pretty universal for everyone that you talked to? LR: The only person who was not supportive was myself. I realized that I was… I struggled with myself. Everyone else, there was a little shock here and there, but there was not this, you know? So, yeah, it's mostly just been myself. AK: I just want to make sure we covered all that's important for your story. So kind of just wrapping up, with your coming out experience, it seems like having a higher power has been really important for you. Is that something that if you were to give advice to someone who is trying to find their way, is that something that you would give advice about as far as having a higher power or at least something like that? LR: Something like that, yeah. Mostly because I personally believe that there are three areas of life that are important to have. To help propel us and truly become ourselves: that is physical, mental and spiritual, having those three things. I knew 167 how to take care of myself physically. I was learning how to take care of myself mentally. But I didn't know how to take care of myself spiritually. I've always felt like I was a spiritual being, but I didn't understand what that meant for me because I was always trying to please other people's God. Crazy. So finding my own sense, my own higher power, a higher power that made sense to me. Well, at first it was strange because of the culture I grew up in. I'm supposed to believe in this type of God, the God that everyone else believes in. Well, first of all, that's bullshit, because my relationship with my higher power cannot be like your relationship is with your higher power because we're two different people, so this expectation I had placed on myself to believe the way others believed was crazy. But it's what I had witnessed. That's how my parents were. You must believe this way. I don't believe that anymore. I honestly believe my higher power sees me where I'm at and knows me and has a place for me. Everything else, no one else knows what I've been through. I can tell you my story. I can share that with you, but you truly don't know what I've been through. But my higher power does, so I'm okay that he's judging me. He's going to be a lot kinder than I'll be, than others will be. Because he also knows my heart. I've learned to stop fighting myself and allow the help from the universe. I mean, there are so many ways to look at a higher power. There's not just the religious way. You know, there are so many ways. And allowing that into my life has made a huge impact, has given me the freedom to be me because I feel like some being has my back and is helping me. I don't have to do it alone. And that's made a huge impact on me. 168 AK: The last question is, if is there anything that you would like to share with those who might be reading this, who are just starting to come out and trying to kind of find their way? LR: Be patient. Especially with yourself. There's no wrong way. Our journey is ours. We have to make our own journey in our own way. There have been moments when I've kind of berated myself. Why the hell did it take so long to come out? Be yourself? Because I wasn't ready to accept myself. I told my therapist the day that I asked her how long she'd known. I told her that about that conversation we had in February. I was ready to quit therapy. I was ready to walk away because that's what I had always done. I had gotten to that point in therapy, and I ran. I quit because I wasn't ready to accept myself. It took a lot. It took Nute. It took a stroke. It took so much for me to be ready to accept myself. But that was my journey. We all have our own journey and just be patient with it. One of my favorite sayings is “Progress, not perfection.” I'm never going to achieve perfection in this life. It's not possible. What is possible is progress, and I choose to keep progressing. That's all there is. As long as I'm progressing and discovering myself, it makes it so much easier to be kind to others. Because if you're constantly berating yourself, that's how you're going to treat others. If you're afraid of you, of yourself, you're going to be afraid of others. I say that from experience. I was terrified of other people-getting to know them. And so I didn't. When I was married, I can count how many friends I had on one hand because I was terrified. But as I started to open up-it's a double-edged sword-as I started to open up and look at myself and accept myself, I started 169 having friends again because I was opening up. That leads to more selfreflection. It's like this constant evolution that just never stops. But there's no wrong way. The only opinion that matters, is yours. There is always someone who has your back. You just have to be willing to let them. That's hard when you've spent your entire life feeling like you're alone and isolated and no one understands. It's hard to trust. But it's also ok to. I feel like I'm rambling, but I hope I make sense. I'm excited now for every day. Don't get me wrong, I'm terrified every day, too. Because it's scary being me. Because I don't know what new thing I'm going to experience. What new feeling I'm going to have. And yet, it is so freeing being me. That's how I feel. A lot like the huge, deep sigh. It's nice to be me. Don't ever stop growing. The minute I stop progressing is the minute I start going back in on myself and being scared and isolating. I look at how much my life has grown and improved and how much I have changed. As scary as it is, I'm going to keep doing that. I want to keep advocating and I struggle doing that, but I want to be here. I want to support. I want to be that person for the younger generation who's terrified. You're not alone. Never have been. And you never will be. I don't know what else to say. AK: Thank you, that was great. That's a wrap. LR: Yay! MT: That's a wrap. 170