Oral History Program William Arthur Budge Interviewed by Richard Sadler 5 August 1981 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah William Arthur Budge Interviewed by Richard Sadler 5 August 1981 Copyright © 2026 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Community Oral History Collection includes interviews conducted by Weber State University faculty, staff and students, and other members of the community. The interviews cover various topics including city government, diversity, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Budge, William Arthur, an oral history by Richard Salder, 5 August 1981, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections & University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with William Arthur Budge, conducted by Richard Sadler on August 5, 1981 at William’s home. William discusses growing up in Pleasant View, going to Weber Stake Academy, serving a mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Turkey, and his experiences living and working in Ogden afterwards. Note: Active listening, transitions in dialogue (such as “um,” “so,” “you know,” etc.), and false starts in conversations are not included in transcription for ease of reading. All additions to transcript noted with brackets. RS: Okay, this is an interview of Mr. William Arthur Budge, conducted on August 5, 1981, at Mr. Budge's home. Mr. Budge, you were born November 5, 1885. Tell me a little bit about your family background, and where you were born, and what you remember of your early life? WAB: Well, I was born in Pleasant View. My father was brought from Scotland when he was only two years old by his father. My grandmother didn't come to Ogden until the first train as far as Riverdale, but she and Grandfather never lived together after that. Grandfather put my father in a family in Pleasant View who took care of him. After the first family took care of him, then he was put with John and Sarah Mower. John Mower had the Wells Fargo stagecoach out by the Hot Springs, and that stagecoach, he took care of the people as they came to the station there. Took care of the horses, changed them, took care of the vehicles, and fed the people. Father stayed with him and grew up with him. John Mower and his family, 1 who had no children, raised my father. So, when Father decided to get married, he built a house on the north part of the Mower property. Now, my mother was born in Pleasant View. Her father was Ezra Granger Williams, who came to the valley in October of 1949. He was a doctor, and he settled in Salt Lake. Later, Brigham Young send him to Smithfield. He was there for three years, and then Brigham Young called him back. Now, his father was Frederick G. Williams, who was a counselor to the Prophet Joseph Smith. His father died two years before the martyrdom, but Grandfather brought his mother with him here, and he took her to Smithfield. She died up there, and she's buried in the Smithfield cemetery. Now, when Grandfather came back, he came to Pleasant View. That's where my mother was born, and that's where she got acquainted with Father, and they were married. Then Grandfather moved into Ogden, and he lived in Ogden in a building—his home was on Washington Avenue, just north of 23rd Street. He had the property where I think the Standard-Examiner is now. Then he lived on 22nd Street, and then he also lived in property just west of The Bon Marché in the block there. I'm acquainted with my grandfather because we used to go to his home, when I was just a boy, in Ogden. In fact, he pulled some of my first teeth. I can remember my grandfather. RS: How did you get to Ogden from Pleasant View when you were a boy? WAB: Well, transportation was by horse and buggy. Of course, later on there was a dummy went out there to the Hot Springs, but the transportation from Pleasant View to Ogden was by horse and buggy, or if they had a bicycle, by bicycle. 2 When I grew up and got older, I had a bicycle that I could ride back and forth in. Now, Father worked for the Consolidated Wagon and Machine Company, which was first the Cooperated Wagon Machine Company. He worked there, and after I came home from my mission—I don't know whether you want to know anything about the mission or not. RS: We'll come back to it. WAB: After I came home from my mission, I got a... After... Well, I'm all mixed up here. RS: You were telling us about the Consolidated Wagon Company. WAB: Yeah, he worked for the Consolidated Wagon Machine Company. Now, I graduated from the eighth grade in Pleasant View. I have my certificate here. For two years, I didn't go to school except just back to the school there in Pleasant View. Then in 1903, I attended the Weber Stake Academy, and Father working in town, I rode with him the first year. He had to report to work at 7 o'clock in the morning and work till 6 at night, so we were up early in the morning and then we were home late at night. Then the next three years, my stepsister, and then a friend and her brother, we rented rooms in Ogden and only went home on the weekends. I graduated from the Weber Stake Academy in 1907. Now, David O. McKay was the principal all the time that I was there, so I had studies under him and his sister, Jeanette Morrill, and also Thomas E. McKay, and other members. I enjoyed the [time] very much in the Academy, because I sang in the choir under Joe Valentine, Joseph Valentine. I played in the band for two years under E. W. Nichols, who was the father of Red Nichols. I also sang in the Ogden Tabernacle Choir. Well, after... 3 RS: May I ask you a question about the Academy? What classes did President McKay teach? WAB: Well, the ones I had under him was English and principally Shakespeare. [Laughs] He had us memorize a lot of passages from the plays of Shakespeare. Of course, he taught other classes there, but those were the main ones I had with him. My mathematics were under William Z. Terry and Wilford McKendrick. I had my church studies under William Z. Terry and Wilford McKendrick. RS: What did Thomas McKay teach? WAB: He taught geography, and I had a geography lesson under him. Now, after I'd been in the Weber Academy two years, then the next subject that's coming along in my course had to do with the theory of teaching. That's one thing I made up my mind, that I wasn't going to be a schoolteacher. I guess it took me three days with President McKay and John G. Lind till I got my course changed to what they called a scientific course where I could take more mathematics, zoology, that sort of thing. RS: What was John G. Lind like? WAB: Oh, John G. Lind was a... Well, he was a very good teacher, but in his class, he didn't seem to pay so much attention personally to his students. He just gave 'em the lesson, and we had to get it. But he was thorough. He was very good. I took zoology under him, and botany under him. RS: Who would you say was your best teacher? 4 WAB: Well, I kind of liked Wilford McKendrick, who taught mathematics. Well, they were all good. Thomas E. McKay was really good. I got along very well with David O. too. RS: Did you know Thomas' daughter, Fawn? WAB: Yes, I was acquainted with her. RS: Did she go to the Weber Academy here? WAB: She might have done. She's younger than I am. She's younger, so I'm not so personally acquainted with her. I knew Thomas E.'s boy pretty well. RS: What was school like in Pleasant View, your first eight grades? Tell me what kinds of things were done there. What were the facilities like? WAB: Well, the Pleasant View schoolhouse was arranged so there could be two teachers. One teacher had to teach three or four grades. They taught all the subjects up to eighth grade. English, mathematics, geography, whatever had to be. Then, 'course, we had our social activities like baseball and that sort of thing, dancing. You see, in those days it was too far to come into town for social pleasures, 'cause there's no picture shows, so we had to make our own fairs. We used to put on plays of our own, and then we used play ball. When I lived in Pleasant View, we had a ball team, and we played in Willard, Plain City, Harrisville, Eden, Liberty, Huntsville, North Ogden. Used to play ball in all those places. RS: What were your church activities like as a young man? WAB: Well, I was president of the deacons quorum, and I went to Primary the last 14. RS: When were you ordained a deacon? 5 WAB: I was ordained a deacon when I was about 12 years old, I guess. I've got a record of it in that book. Check the date. RS: Did you go to most of your church services on Sunday, or were there weeknight activities? WAB: No, nearly everything was on Sunday. Nearly everybody in Pleasant View were active in the church. Nearly everybody. Father was very active in that church, so that's was our activity in the church. Go to church. RS: I read in your history about your mother dying shortly after your youngest brother was born. Was it difficult? You were only four years old when she died. Was it difficult to stay together as a family in those circumstances? WAB: Of course, being only four years old—and they tell me that I didn't even talk till I was four years old. But I can't remember that I was so close to Mother. In other words, I didn't have the mother's love that I wish that I'd've had. When Mother died, Father took me and went to stay with this John Mower family. My sister older than me, Annie, and my brother younger than me was taken by my Grandmother Williams, who lived in Ogden. The women in Pleasant View who saw the situation took my brother, who was only three weeks old when Mother died. First, one would take him a while, and then another would take [him] a while. After two years, then Father got us back together again as a family and hired housekeepers. These housekeepers took care of us, and then after about seven years, Father married the last housekeeper and raised another family. This stepmother of mine was a hard worker. She took good care of us. Kept us well 6 fed, well clothed, so that we had no trouble that way. But she wasn't to me what I think a mother might've been. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say that. RS: Tell me about your mission call. How did it come, and were you interviewed by your bishop, and...? WAB: Now, after I graduated from the Weber Academy, I got a job with the Consolidated Wagon Machine Company, where Father worked. So, I worked there, and I started to work there in June of 1908. In the last of August, 1908, I got a call from Box B. In those days, missionaries were never interviewed, never notified ahead of time, that I know of. I got this call for a five-year mission to Turkey, and I had to give an answer for it within a week, which I did. Then I made preparations to go, had to be vaccinated for smallpox, and I did have a sore arm, I remember. I, 'course, went to Salt Lake and took out my endowments. Seymour B. Young, the grandfather of Dilworth Young, set me apart from a mission, and John Smith, the patriarch to the church, gave me a patriarchal blessing. In Salt Lake, I arranged for a passport, and I've got my passport to go to Turkey. On September of 1908, we left Salt Lake about the 18, I think it was, of September, and there were three of us going to Turkey: I. Owen Horsfall from Salt Lake and Loren Dunkley from Whitney, Idaho. Then there were a whole group of missionaries. There were 24 missionaries in our group that were going to Europe from Ogden. William Wright was one that I remember. So, we had a lot of missionaries going. 7 We had to go on the train, and we stopped in Denver, of course, and Chicago. I had my passport visaed by a Turkish consul in Chicago. I had an uncle on a mission in Boston, and I found him when I got there and spent a couple of days with him, and he showed me around. Then we left on the steamship Republic, I think it was on the 26 of September, 1908, and we were nine days on the ship going to Liverpool. RS: Did you have any kind of missionary training before you left? WAB: No, none at all. No missionary training, nothing ever said to me about a mission, I just got a call. I have the call from Joseph F. Smith on my mission. RS: Did you meet President Smith at all, then or later? WAB: I did later. I can tell you about that later. RS: Sure. WAB: We went to... There weren't many missionaries. The missionaries that had gone over to Turkey had been sent down around Gibraltar, but they told us three to go over the land. So, we went to Paris, to London, to Paris, to Marseilles, and then took the boat from there to Athens. We had two elders in Athens; we'd sent them a telegram, so they met us at the boat in Athens. Then we went from Athens to Alexandria, and we missed our boat and laid over there three days, so three of us went off to Cairo and the pyramids and the sphinx. Then we sailed to Beirut, and on to Aleppo, and we got into Aleppo on the 24 of October. So, I left Salt Lake in September the 16 or 18, and got into Aleppo, the headquarters of the mission, on the 24 of October. Met President Booth and his wife, and there were Lestbert and Newman, Hio and Horsch, and John T. 8 Woodbury, and David Stevenson, and Joseph O. Phelps who was missionaries there. I was later assigned to go to Aintab, 60 miles farther north, so I made several trips between Aintab and Aleppo, but I was in Aleppo. The mission was closed. We heard about it in June of 1909, but we had to stay there two months before we could get out of there 'cause we had sent home for money. It took a month for the mail to go one way. RS: Why was the mission closed? WAB: The mission was really... Shut that off and I'll show you something. [Recording stops] [Recording resumes] RS: Now, you spent about a year in Turkey? WAB: That's right. RS: Did you ever visit Istanbul while you were there? WAB: No, I didn't go that far north. RS: All in southern Turkey. Did you visit Ephesus? WAB: No, I didn't go to Ephesus. RS: After the mission was closed, you went to the Holy Land? WAB: Well, we went to Baalbek, and I've got a book on Baalbek from The Greatest Ruins in the World. From Baalbek to Damascus, from Damascus to the Sea of Galilee, Tiberias, and over to Haifa, and then back to Nazareth, and then to Joppa, and then the train to Jerusalem. There we met a man that President Booth knew, and he took us to the Dead Sea and Jericho. 9 RS: What was typical food like? What did you eat for breakfast and lunch and dinner on your mission? WAB: Well, there's some food, the Turkish food, that we didn't particularly like, but then we picked what we wanted. But they eat lots of vegetables over there, and they have good melons. A lot of wonderful lettuce and vegetables. But they don't eat pork, and they kill and eat beef the same day. They eat turkeys, that sort of thing. When I was with my partner up in Aintab, this boy, this partner of mine, could do anything. He could pick up the violin, play it, never had a lesson. He could cook, so I let him do the cooking, and I washed the dishes. We'd fix our food for a while, then we'd go out and eat with a family for a while, then we'd go down in the market and eat for a while. That's the way we worked it. So, we picked what food we wanted. RS: What would you say was the cost per month of a mission in Turkey? WAB: Well, it seems to me that some of the time it didn't... We lived in the house that the church rented to hold our meetings, when we were in Aintab. We lived the house in Aleppo where we held our meetings, so it never cost me anything for rent. I don't think I spent more than $10 or $15 a month while I was there. But after I got to Scotland, it used to cost me $25 or $30 a month or more. RS: Now, was that sent from home for you? WAB: Yes. When I was in Turkey, father used to send me drafts drawn on England, because I could get more money for a draft drawn on England than I could on a Turkish bank, because of the exchange. RS: How long did you spend in Scotland? 10 WAB: We left Aleppo on the 4 of October, and I didn't get to Glasgow until the 18th of November. So, I didn't, and then I left there, and I was there a year and a half. I was there in Scotland a year and a half. When I got to Greece, coming home, I got a letter there from President Booth. He'd left to go on to Liverpool. So, I did, and of course when I got to Liverpool, then President Penrose was president of the mission, and he sent me to Glasgow. I think President Booth told him my father was born up there somewhere. Anyway, he sent me to Glasgow, and A. Z. Richards, who was president of the Scottish Conference, met me at the train in the evening. After two weeks, they made me secretary of the Scottish Conference. I had all the books to keep for the Scottish Conference, and all the money affairs to take care of, so I stayed in Glasgow all the time, except I traveled around. I went to Aberdeen and Dundee and Edinburgh and Musselburgh and Airdrie and different places around from Glasgow, but Glasgow was my headquarters. RS: How was the success for missionaries in Scotland? WAB: Well, pretty good. Pretty good. 'Course, we had branches then. We had a branch in Aberdeen, one in Dundee, and one in Edinburgh, one in Paisley, one in Glasgow. I led the singing for a year in the Glasgow branch. That's the way we... I don't know how many saints. I baptized two families there in Glasgow, I know that. RS: Did you have much success in Turkey? WAB: No, I don't know that I converted anybody, although I performed some baptisms. RS: Were they Muslim families? 11 WAB: No, we didn't do any work with the Mohammedans. We did it all with the Armenian people, the Armenian saints. We weren't allowed—we didn't do any tracting over there. The buildings are different there. The streets are really walled up all the way along, and then you go through the wall into a courtyard where the buildings are, where the people live. The people mostly, in Aintab where I was, why, they sleep on the floor at night, and then put their bedding up in a hole in the wall in the daytime. All the time I was over there, I had my bedding. Sister Booth gave me a... whatever these things are we sleep on. Then I had some sheets and I'd just put that down on the floor and sleep on it. When we were in Aleppo, in the summertime we used to sleep on the housetop. But that's the way we slept all the time. I carried that bedding with me all the way till I got to Greece on my way back. If you read my diary, you'll find out that when I got to Baalbek, that I'd slept on a spring bed, and hadn't slept on one since I got over to Turkey. RS: How do you spell Aintab? WAB: A-I-N-T-A-B. RS: When you went through the temple the first time for your endowments, do you remember about how long it took? WAB: I don't know how long it took when we went through there. But I do remember that when I got married, that me and my wife and whoever went with us left about 6 o'clock in the morning on the Bamberger and went to the temple in Salt Lake, and we weren't married till 5 o'clock in the afternoon. On the way home, the 12 Bamberger got stuck, the power went off, and time we got back to her home, why, the people were all there waiting for us. RS: When you came back from your mission, you'd been gone about two and a half, three years? WAB: I was gone back nearly three years. RS: Nearly three years. What did you begin doing in Ogden when you came home? WAB: I couldn't get back with the Consolidated Wagon Machine Company, and I got a job with Cragun Brothers Commission Company. Now, they were in the produce business. They were really from Pleasant View, but they had a store in Ogden in between 22nd and 23rd Street. I worked for them, and I used to load cars at night. I'd load three cars of fruit or vegetables or something at night, and they told me I'd have a job as long as I lived, so I didn't mind working till 9 o'clock at night. I worked, and I used to load cars. You read somewhere where I loaded a car of apples out the Hot Springs once? RS: Yes. WAB: Then rode to Ogden in the rain to deliver the bill of lading. At the Hot Springs, there used to be a station, and they used to have an agent there who used to ship a lot of fruit and stuff out of the Hot Springs. RS: What did this job pay? WAB: I think I got $85 a month from Cragun Brothers, if I remember right. RS: How long did you work for them? 13 WAB: Well, I started to work for them after I came home from my mission in May, and having a steady job, and knowing my girl from the time we were in the Weber Academy. We got married in October—October 11, 1911. Then in November, Cragun Brothers said, "Well, things are such now we'll have to let you younger fellows off." I'd only been married a month. So, what was I gonna do? Because I didn't have enough money to build a house. When we got married, why, we looked around for a house, and we found this house right next to us here that we could rent, which we did. We lived in that house for five years, and then built this one that we're in now. Well, anyway, I went down to the railroad's company to see if I could get a job. Now, I've had a guided life, and I'll tell you why. I went down to the railroad company in the freight office to see if I could get a position. No openings. Then Mr. Cragun went with me, and we saw Mr. Chevers, a great agent, and he says, "I'll tell you what, if you would come and work on the platform, when we got an opening in the office, we'll call you up." This was in November and December, cold as heck. What was I to do? I had to work. So, I went down there and worked on the platform, and Howard Jenkins' father was the head of it. I could read and write, and a lot of these fellas couldn't, so they used to give me odd jobs down there. Well, one Friday in the first part of January, I heard there was an opening in the Ogden City Schools. I saw the superintendent on Saturday, and then next Monday I was in the schoolroom teaching in the Ogden Junior High School. RS: What were you teaching? 14 WAB: I taught geography and history. [Laughs] One year I had a class in penmanship, and now I can't read my own writing. I did that, and Mr. Adams, the principal there, was very... I don't like the word touchy, but he was very keen on arithmetic and English, so he wouldn't let everybody do that. But the last two years I was there with him, he let me teach mathematics, algebra, and arithmetic. RS: How long did you teach there? WAB: Five and a half years. RS: Five and half years. WAB: Well, the trouble was we had three months—and they didn't pay the teachers then like they do now. We had three months in the summer without anything to do, so I had to get out and hunt jobs. I followed the threshing machine, I worked on the tax rolls for the county, and shoveled coal for my father-in-law, chase water hogs for the city. I went into one of the banks one day, see if I'd get a summer's job. I didn't know anything about banking. Well, this is the time of the First World War, and one of the managers in the bank there had to go to war, so there was an opening in the bank, and they called me up and offered me the job. After thinking it over with the bank and the superintendent of the schools, I went in the Security State Bank in the 1 of August, 1917. That's where I was till I retired. RS: When did you retire? WAB: December 31, 1959. I worked for nine years after my retirement age, but I was glad to do that because I had a boy in medical school. He's a doctor—no, he's a... 15 RS: Radiologist? WAB: He's a radiologist there in the McKay Hospital. RS: What did you get paid as a school teacher, do you recall? WAB: I got started out at $700 a year. The last year, my salary had been $1,000 a year. RS: Tell me a bit about Asael Farr. What kind of a man was he? WAB: He was a real keen businessman. See, he had the Asael Farr Coal Company, and he started out in the ice business. He and his brother used to have ice ponds over here and sell ice. Then later on, when the boys' sons grew up with him, he opened up the ice business, and also the ice cream business that's still there down on 21st Street. He owned some property there. He was a very keen businessman. He did very well, and he made some investments, especially in this ideal cement that turned out very well. RS: Did you go ice skating on the ponds? WAB: No, I didn't, but my wife used to. I didn't. RS: What about the Hot Springs? Did you ever go swimming out there? WAB: Oh, yes. You see, where I was raised, I was only a mile from the Hot Springs. The Hot Springs had a station there, and an agent there, and a hotel there, and people from all over the United States used to come there at the hotel and take baths. They had a big swimming pool there, so we used to go out there swimming all the time. Then there was a pavilion on the north side of the railroad where they used to hold dances all the time. The Hot Springs was a social center. 16 Now, if you remember the dummy that used to run from here out through North Ogden and Pleasant View, there was a track to the Hot Springs. The people used to go out there by the carloads, and they used to have bicycle races from Ogden out the Hot Springs. So, lots of people used go out there. RS: Did they swim in summer and winter? WAB: Well, yes. They'd have inside pools, why, they could go in. Lorin Farr used to go out there at least once a week in one of those hot pools. One day, he stood up and died in one of 'em. It was quite a place. Then down on the flat below there, we used to have a ball diamond. Fine place to play ball. We used to hold a lot of our ball games there. RS: What other kinds of things did you do for recreation as a young man? Did you go to Saltair ever? WAB: Yes. Yeah, we used to go to Saltair. RS: What was Saltair like? WAB: Oh, a beautiful building. Well, the church used to have these church dances. Annual church dances used to be held out there at Saltair, so we used to go down to Saltair and then take the train from Salt Lake out. I have driven my car out to Saltair. This, before it burned down. It's a fine building. I've been out there several times. RS: Tell me about the first cars you remember? WAB: Automobiles? RS: First automobiles. WAB: Well, I was made a bishop, took the ward over on the 1 of January, 1917. 17 RS: Which ward was that, by the way? WAB: Seventh Ward, where I'm living now. In 1922, in December, I woke up one Sunday morning. My head was drawn over, and I couldn't go to church. I went to a chiropractor and said, "That'll fix it." Boy, he sure stirred me up. Well, I went the hospital. After I got out of the hospital for three weeks, then my wife's cousin—I don't know whether you want to record this or not—said, "You ought to go down to Long Beach, California." Now, this is January. "Lay out there in the sun." Well, we decide to go. I was away from the bank for three months. When I got so I could walk, we took the train and we went— [audio distorts] RS: You were telling me about your trip to Long Beach. WAB: Then we went up to... What's the town up there, Long Beach? I can't remember towns. RS: Santa Barbara? WAB: Santa... No. That's where they've been all the time. Let me... Santa Monica. RS: Santa Monica. WAB: So, I rented a place. We lived in a hotel there for a month. You know, all the time that I was there, I never had my overcoat off. Lyle Larkins—I don't know if you've heard of him or not, he's the Larkins crowd here—had business down there. He took me out for a ride once a day, and boy, I not only had my own overcoat on, but I had his on top of that. So, I came back. Now, you asked me—well, when I came back, I went back to the bank, and I bought my first automobile. I bought a Star. RS: S-T-A-R-R? 18 WAB: I don't know whether it had two Rs in it or not. I had three of those. I bought 'em from Mitchell. I had three of those, one after another. See, they only cost between $400 and $500. I think I had one that cost me about $700. Then I had a Nash after that. After I'd driven that Nash I thought long enough, I went into Mitchell's to see about getting another car. They had a... I can't think of the name. It's a Chrysler. RS: Dodge? Plymouth? WAB: No, no, that isn't the name. They've discontinued it now. Well, what's the matter with me? Anyway, they had one there, and we were gonna go to Salt Lake and look at a car, but I looked at that so long that they sold it to me. I had five of those before they discontinued making 'em, and then the last cars I've had, I had New Yorkers. RS: Did you drive a car before you got your first Star? Had you driven one before that? WAB: I can't remember that. Anyway, when I got the car, I got a license and drove. I can remember if I ever had any trouble. RS: What was the banking business like in Ogden when you became a banker? WAB: Well, I started out in the Security State Bank, and it was a small bank. We only had two windows, and one of 'em we had principally for savings. I used to work the general books there, and I used to work the people's accounts also. Then I worked the cage, and in this cage I used to sell traveler's checks, foreign exchange. We paid in gold, just the same as you pay in currency. I was only there just a couple years and they made me a system cashier. 19 Then, in 1925—see, this was in '17 when I went in that bank—then the Commercial National Bank that was up the street and the Security State Bank got together and made the Commercial Security Bank. We stopped paying gold. The president said, "Get rid of our gold. Call the Federal Reserve up and let's get rid our gold." This was before the Ogden State Bank closed, so I called [unintelligible] up and said, "We're gonna get rid of our gold." He says, "Bring it over," so I took him all the gold we had, $65,000 or more. What I ought to done is kept a few pieces myself, but I didn't think I had money to do it. RS: What were the 20s like in Ogden? [Speaking at same time as William] Prohibition? WAB: About the size of a dollar. RS: Oh, I'm sorry. What were the 1920s like, the Roaring 20s, with prohibition and things like that? WAB: Oh, I see what you mean. Well, I don't remember a lot about that. RS: Well, let me ask you then, you were a bishop for a while, then you were made a counselor on the stake presidency? WAB: After I was released as bishop, I went as a high councilman, an alternate high councilman in the Ogden Stake. Thomas E. McKay, one of his counselors, John Hall, had moved to California, so Thomas E. took me for his second counselor. I was his counselor for two years, and then he was called to preside over the 20 Swiss-German mission. I had to do with the farewell for that, which we had in the Berthana. Samuel G. Dye was made president of the stake, and he had me for his first counselor. I was a counselor to him for six years, so I was in the Ogden Stake presidency for eight years. Then when they divided the Ogden Stake in 1944. Brother Widtsoe was up, and by the way, Spencer Kimball was with him. They put me in president of Ben Lomond Stake. RS: Now, was that the first stake north of the Ogden Stake? WAB: Yeah. Ben Lomond Stake took from the Ogden River north, including Pleasant View and North Ogden. I had that job for nine years. Brother LeGrand Richards, I was in his office one day, he says, "We're gonna divide the Ogden Stake." I says, "Well, that'll be a good time to release me. I'll feel all right if you release me." Which they did, but I got a long letter from the First Presidency about it. But when President Lee came up to do it, they made me think if I wanted to stay on, it'd be all right. But I told 'em it was a good time to release me. I didn't know I'd get the job I got now. RS: [Laughs] What job do you have now? WAB: Well, then the next March, Matthew Cowley is up. He says, "I've been sent up here to ordain you a patriarch." RS: So, you've been a patriarch since what date? WAB: March 8, 1953. RS: I see. Did you ever meet David Eccles? Do you remember? WAB: No, I don't know that I did. I've given quite a few blessings. 21 RS: Tell me about Fred Kiesel. Did you meet him? WAB: Yes, I met him because he was the one that was interested in the Security State Bank. RS: What kind of a man was Fred Kiesel? WAB: Well, he was a keen businessman. 'Course, I wasn't very closely associated with him, but his son-in-law was president of the bank too, there. Now, you asked me about the Eccles. Well, the first time I met Marriner, Marriner was on a mission over in Scotland when I was. I've got a postcard somewhere, or a picture that we took. His uncle came over there on a vacation and brought a White Steamer automobile with him, and then hired a... whoever drives automobiles. RS: A chauffeur? WAB: Chauffeur over there. On one 4 of July, Marriner made the arrangements, so we loaded the car up with elders and went to Edinburgh. I got a picture of that, and I've mislaid it somewhere, and I don't know where it is. That's when I first met Marriner, and I've known him ever since. I met George, but I'm not so well acquainted with him. I like Marriner. Marriner's a fine fellow. RS: When you became bishop, what kinds of things did you do to activate people in your ward, do things like that? WAB: Well, we tried to make 'em active, and of course we used to have a social every week. Then there's quite a lot of athletics, basketball, all that sort of thing. We probably didn't hold as many meetings as they hold now. RS: Were you ever a member of the Weber Club? 22 WAB: No, I joined the Chamber of Commerce. I was a member of that bunch. I never joined any of the clubs, except the Lions Club. RS: Let me ask you this question: did you ever notice any difficulty between Mormons in Ogden and non-Mormons as more people began to come in with the railroad? WAB: No, I wouldn't say that I did. I used to know a lot of non-Mormons, especially working with 'em in the bank. There are a lot of these foreigners, sheep herders and that sort of thing, that had come from Spain and the country north of Spain. They used to come to my window. Abe Booth's father—have you ever heard of Abe Booth? He used to have a store on 25th Street. They used to come to me to wait on 'em in the bank. It used to be kind of special for 'em. RS: Which presidential election was the first that you remember voting in? Do you remember voting for President Taft in 19...? WAB: Oh, yes. I could vote back in... Well, when I was old enough, clear back in 1911, I guess. I could vote. I don't know who was running then. RS: In 1912, Woodrow Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt and... WAB: I voted for Roosevelt. Now, when I was teaching school— [Recording stops] [Recording resumes] RS: You were telling me about school teaching and straw votes. WAB: Well, remember Teddy Roosevelt ran on an independent ticket. RS: In 1912? WAB: Yeah. Well, we used to take straw votes from the students, see. I found out from the straw votes that Roosevelt was way ahead of everybody. Soon after that, 23 they cut it out, wouldn't let us do it in schools. That year, if I go by the students, why, Roosevelt would be elected, and he sure was. RS: It was interesting to me that you had decided in school not to be a school teacher, but then you became one for five years. WAB: That's right. Best thing that ever happened to me. Because I'll tell you, I didn't have all the credentials I needed, so I've got a lot of credits with the University of Utah, and I've got a lifetime teacher certificate. But my education outside of that has been in the banking business. I got a stack of textbooks that high I took in banking [with] the American Institute of Banking. See, and that's going now, teaching that. A lot of the teachers we had came up from the University of Utah, but all of 'em that I had weren't from the University of Utah. I had one from North Ogden. He's dead now, and he used to be head of the college. So, I took a lot of courses in banking, and I got a lot of credit there. I took Spanish and Spanish-French one year. I got credit in Spanish down at BYU, but my Turkish and my German and my French, that's... RS: Let me ask you a question about the Depression: how did the Depression affect Ogden, from your point of view as a banker? WAB: Well, now you remember that the Depression, the banks in the nation were closed for two years. We were closed up for two years, and the banks decided that when they opened up again, they'd pay script and not currency. So I, for two weeks, I signed script. But Roosevelt—it wasn't... RS: Hoover? 24 WAB: No. RS: Roosevelt? WAB: Roosevelt, who was in seven years or longer, he says, "When banks open up, we're gonna pay currency." Now that's—you got to give him credit for that, anyway. So, when the banks opened up, we paid currency. Now, in 1930, the Ogden State Bank closed, if you know that, which it should never have done, but it did. So, we had a run on the bank. I remember that I had currency stacked up that high in my cage that the people could see, and the first day that we had the run on the bank we didn't close up, we just stayed there as long as the people came, and then we even fed 'em sandwiches. Now, it took quite a little while. You take a person that's got $10,000 in the bank and comes in to draw it out, well, you got to count the money out to him, and then you got to have him count the money too. Even with $300 or $400 in account, you can't shove 'em off in a hurry. They're all excited too. All nervous and all that sort of thing. Like one woman, three or four months afterwards, she took her money and put [it in a] safety deposit box, and then came back and said, "You didn't give me all my money." RS: Were some of them panicky, did you think? WAB: Oh, very much so. I'll say they were. They were. They were excited, I'll tell you. But we paid 'em. Some of our directors were there in the bank, stood up and told 'em. [Unintelligible] Richardson was one of 'em, said he wasn't gonna draw his money out. We had two days of it, and then they began to calm down. It was panicky, all right, but we paid 'em. The bank, we didn't close. 25 RS: Did many banks in Ogden go under? WAB: Just the Ogden State. I don't think they should—I'll tell you, I think that the Federal Reserve System tried to get Bigelow to do some things that he didn't want to do. See, Bigelow had the confidence of a lot of people. He sure had their confidence. 26