Oral History Program Kym Buttschardt Interviewed by Sarah Storey 12 August 2019 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Kym Buttschardt Interviewed by Sarah Storey 12 August 2019 Copyright © 2022 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Beyond Suffrage Project was initiated to examine the impact women have had on northern Utah. Weber State University explored and documented women past and present who have influenced the history of the community, the development of education, and are bringing the area forward for the next generation. The project looked at how the 19th Amendment gave women a voice and representation, and was the catalyst for the way women became involved in the progress of the local area. The project examines the 50 years (1870-1920) before the amendment, the decades to follow and how women are making history today. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Buttschardt, Kym, an oral history by Sarah Storeyi, 12 August 2019, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Kym Buttschardt Circa 2019 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Kym Buttschardt, conducted on August 12, 2019, in the Stewart Library, at Weber State University, by Sarah Storey. In this interview, Kym discusses her life, her memories, and the impact of the 19th Amendment. Sarah Tooker, the video technician, is also present during this interview. SS: It is approximately 3 o’clock on August 12, 2019. We are here with Kym Buttschardt, and Sarah Storey is interviewing and Sarah Tooker is recording. So, we’re just going to go over some early life things and then we will move into later stages of your life. KB: Okay. SS: So, when and where were you born? KB: I was born in Ogden, Utah, on May 8th, 1967. I’m 52 years old. SS: Nice. You’re so young. Everybody knows you, too, everybody just thinks so highly of you, so it’s really exciting to finally meet you. Have you lived in Ogden your whole life? KB: I lived in Ogden until I graduated from high school, and then I went to the University of Utah and got my accounting degree there, and then I worked in Washington DC for Price Waterhouse, as an accountant, got my CPA. And then I transferred back with them, here to Salt Lake, and I’ve been in Ogden now since 1993. SS: Oh, wow. So, did you transfer back because you missed home? 2 KB: It’s kind of a long story. So, I met my husband, Pete, he’s my business partner as well, he’s from Philadelphia, and I’m from Ogden, and we met working at the Market Street restaurants at the University of Utah, in college, and he had a little bit more school to finish and I was going east, I was never going to live in Utah again, and he was actually going to come out there and meet me. And my parents, Sandy and Lyle, Ogden City was trying to start revitalization of downtown, and they had a restaurant, Sandy’s Fine Foods, and they were ask, the city was asking my parents, if they would open a restaurant in the Union Station, like a, you know, give them really nice rent incentives and all of this, and my cute step dad called Pete—we were just boyfriend and girlfriend at the time, Pete was still in Salt Lake, I was in Washington DC—and asked him if he wanted to move to Utah and open a restaurant, you know, like kind of wanted to be involved in something, and so Pete called me and I... just like, “What?” You know, I called my cute dad, Lyle—stepdad—and said, “What are you doing? You don’t even know if we’re going to be together,” and he said, “It’s not really about you, I just like Pete.” I was like, “What?” So whenever I talk to people I definitely have learned it’s not really about me. So Pete moved to Ogden—but I stayed out there for a couple more years and eventually I transferred back to “Salt Lake.” You know, because I could live in “Salt Lake.” I was able to transfer with my company and then eventually, you know, we needed to be in the same spot, so I took a job with I-Omega, moved to Ogden, and we got married in ’93 and I’ve been here ever since. SS: Nice, that’s awesome. It’s so funny how life can bring you back. 3 KB: Yeah, exactly. And it was when we decided to plant our flag, we were going to make this a place that, you know, our boys would be proud growing up in and it’s been a good journey. SS: Nice. So, your mom is Sandy Eversten? KB: My mom is Sandy Eversten. SS: She’s a fantastic lady, I interviewed her. KB: She is a big mentor of mine. I was like, “You’ve got to nail my mom down.” I’m surprised she didn’t tell me, but ok, this is good. Sandy’s my mom, me and my sisters are junior Sandy. We channel our inner Sandy when we need to. SS: Yeah, that’s awesome. When you were a young girl, were there any women that you looked up to? KB: One was my mom, Sandy, cause she just was awesome and loved people and smart and a business owner. And then my other woman, who is, it’s very interesting and you probably interviewed her, her name is Karen Fairbanks. ST: She’s on the list. KB: Yeah. She’s a great mentor of mine, I babysat her children what I was, from nine years old on, and now we’ve, you know, she’s been a mentor to me through the years and now we are just dear friends and her kids are in their 40s and it’s a really special friendship. And she and her husband still continue to mentor me. And vice versa, but it’s kind of funny how your friendships change, you know? But yeah, she was in the Junior League, she always encouraged me, like she gave me this necklace when I graduated from high school, something special, you know, cause I worked really hard growing up, I worked in my parents 4 restaurant, Sandy’s, and I kind of... surrogately raised my little sisters, my three little sisters, cause my mom and my step-dad had this, like a second family, and so, that’s why when I was done, I wasn’t going to have kids, I wasn’t going to move back to Ogden, I wasn’t going to be in the restaurant business. And like... that’s my other thing is, never say never. Because... you don’t know how your life is going to kind of turn around, or what curves it’s going to take. SS: That’s awesome, that’s so funny how you have this like this tradition, how you’ve come back to it and then you’ve been able to expand on it. Your mom did tell me some stories about how she would set you guys up in the kitchen when you were little. KB: My sisters, my sisters. I was in my teens, but it was my sisters, they were in playpens in the kitchen, yeah, until the health department said no more. So then they were mine, at home. SS: So you have children of your own. KB: I have three sons. SS: And you’ve seen what your mom has gone through. So, from your experiences, how do you think that the role of mothers has changed over the years? KB: You know, I have three sons and I just think we still have to do it all, but I mean, I think that they’re proud that I work and get out there and do things and I think the role—and I especially see this with the younger girls, they want to do it all, you know? They do want to work, they do want to be moms, they want to be fit, they want to be this and that, and I think... But in my family, it’s different, because we definitely co-parent. And we have from the get-go, since my husband and I have 5 been business parents, and my parents, you know, my mom and my stepdad were business partners and they just kind of did it all. They kind of... shared responsibility, shared pick-ups, and shared drop-offs. We have certain reversed roles where my husband he is the cook, he does the dishes, he cooks the food. I mean, I do the laundry and the money. But I don’t know, I think women are more empowered these days, and want to be. I mean, their voice is every bit as smart and loud as a male. SS: True. Very true. So, from your strong example, you had your mother, that’s a strong example, and you, I’m sure, have been a strong example to your boys. Do you think that has affected your boys and how you look at women and—I’m not sure if they’re married or not, but if they are, their wives and their children. KB: I do, I do think that. I think that, you know, they’re little liberal guys, which is awesome, and I think they just don’t see it as any different. I think they have, I mean, they, you know, they saw me in heaps on the floor having anxiety attacks and all of this kind of stuff, but they also are really proud of us, they’re proud of me and my husband. But I’m sort of the voice of our family, you know, the voice of our business, and I think they’re proud of that, and they definitely have respect for women and it’s cool to see. It’s very cool to see. And I sort of take it for granted, but I think that that is kind of growing up with... And also the way that Pete treats me, he treats me with a lot of respect and I think they see that, but I also just think, I also have some amazing friends that are very strong women, some of them are working mothers, some of them were working mothers. I also 6 think the power of girl friends can never be underestimated and I feel extremely blessed to have a really good tribe of girlfriends. SS: That’s wonderful. KB: And they all have sons, too, and their sons look at them as strong women. So that’s kind of cool. SS: I think it’s important to plant that seed early, so I think you’ve got, you’re on to something there. KB: Yeah. SS: And there’s definitely a gathering of women that just think you’re amazing, so. KB: Alright, that’s good. SS: You definitely make an imprint on people. KB: I’m a lover of people, that’s for sure, so maybe that’s what they feel. But my mom and dad just kind of love people, my mom and stepdad, Lyle. And I do, I just kind of love people, that’s sort of who I am, like I sort of tell my employees, “We like you first.” Like, “prove us wrong.” I mean, we like that customer first, you know. And I feel that... I thought that that was a normal way to live, but the older I get, I’m like, “Not everybody likes everybody.” I’m a respecter of people, and all races of people and all that. I don’t think people are out to get me, I guess. A lot of people do. SS: Yeah, I like that. So as a child, your mom was busy and successful. Were you encouraged to pursue an education? KB: It’s kind of funny. Ok, so I was a straight-A student. I guess I was just a driven kid. I was a really good reader from a young age and school came pretty 7 naturally to me. Math and not so much science, I’m not a science person, but I did well in school, like I knew how to get good grades. And my mom would just like, “Oh, you’ve worked so hard, you don’t have to work that hard.” And I have no idea, like, I’m the first person to graduate from college in my family, and good on Bonneville High School, like I had a counselor, someone that said, “Apply for this and this,” and I ended up getting a couple of different full-ride scholarships to the U, and I still, you know, I didn’t have any money from my parents. I worked all through college with my housing, I waitressed all through college, loved it. Still the best job ever, wish I could be one. And my mom was so funny, she would be like, “You don’t have to get A’s, you know, you could just get C’s.” Like, she was always worried of me driving myself too hard, cause I worked in high school and did the kids and so, you know, my mom’s always worried about everybody working themselves too hard. She worries about my husband, she worries about me, and so I think my dad, my real dad, who has since passed away, he was always really proud of me and I would say that he is a big factor in my life, because I was like a bigger girl and I had all my skinny friends and stuff, but he always made me feel like I was really smart and really... And I don’t know, he just was... I really can attribute to a lot of my self-esteem from my dad, cause my parents got divorced when I was maybe 5, but he showed up every weekend and then I have a wonderful, just a wonderful stepfather. But no, I just kind of said, “I’m going to college,” and I paid for it all and I had a scholarship and I look at it now and I’m like, “How did I do that?” Like, “How did that happen?” It was awesome. And I would say maybe Karen Fairbanks probably did encourage me 8 too, I can’t really remember, but it’s just kind of like someone said you should go to college, so I did. And it ended being great. And I’m glad I did. And then when I realized that I was the first graduate in my whole family, I thought, “Wow. That’s really something.” You know, it’s just an assumption for my kids, but that’s not how...that’s not how we grew up. Well, I remember leaving and I was, when my mom told me and maybe she told this in her story, but she told me she was pregnant with my little brother, and this was maybe my junior, end of my junior year of high school, and I’m like, “What are you going to do? Like, I’m not going to be here to raise another child,” and she remembers that she was like, offended. She was like, “Well, they’re my kids.” But she always remembers that. Yeah. So I just think about that and I was a little bit worried about leaving my mom, but it was good... I don’t want to say she wasn’t on her own two feet, because she was, but I did a lot of help back home. The other thing too on the education thing is I had a dear friend, Allison Wheeler, who I went to high school with, we actually went to separate colleges and then she ended up back at the U, but her parents were really into education, so I would say that I probably followed her path as well. SS: That’s nice. So, once you got your degree in accounting, you said that you ended up going to Washington DC. Was that the first career option you had out of school? KB: It was, they did online interviews back in college then and like I said, I worked in a restaurant all through college, which I loved, and then I worked in Jackson Hole for like my last two summers of college. But it was pretty cool, like I had, I 9 actually had... Not my husband, but I had a boyfriend before my husband that was in Washington DC and I had some other friends that had done internships there and I thought, “Oh, that sounds great,” you know. So I did interviews in college, I got that job and it was really cool back then because I had the job lined up, I was starting September 1st, or 4th or whatever it is, I had my offer letter, I think I made like $31,000 starting salary out of college, in Washington DC. But I made more money, I think that my friends that all worked on the Hill and stuff were making like $22,000 or something, so it seemed like a lot... I mean, still, that’s pretty good money. But it was fun because I graduated from college, I had worked so hard, and then I just had that fun summer in Jackson and Pete, my boyfriend then was up there, we worked on the river, and yeah, I kind of had it lined up, and it was kind of fun to have an offer, like a good job, knowing you were going to this real job. And then sort of have a fun summer to work and play. So that was the best summer of my life. And I did have friends in DC that were encouraging me, like I was in a sorority in college, and I had some sorority sisters that were out there that I’m still friends with now that stayed out there for a long time, then San Francisco and some of them are back in Utah, some of them are still out East. So I kind of had some people to follow, that did internships in DC, I never did, like I just kind of went there. I had been out there to visit but I kind of went out there and found a place and you know just went for it. SS: That’s so daring to just up and go. KB: Yeah, I mean now, it does seem pretty daring. It seems daring now. SS: Yeah, but you’re just courageous, I love it. 10 KB: My son’s about to graduate from college and I’m like, “Just go do it.” He is, too. And I worry about him like my mom worries about me. SS: Of course. That’s a mom thing. So when you were obtaining your degree, what were some challenges that you had to face? Obviously, you got your scholarships and you paid for school, you said, was there anything else that stuck out? KB: You know, being at the University of Utah, like... It was a very clique-y school. Like a lot. But I made wonderful out-of-state friends—and it has more of an out-of- state influence now, so a couple of things. One, the money. Because I paid for everything and I worked all the time. And two, in the beginning, like, maybe that first year, I wasn’t completely prepared with the discipline. Like I went to Bonneville High School, it kind of came easy for me, and I’m away from home, I’m living with all, you know we have like an apartment dorm so we would stay up all night. I still have nightmares about like getting to graduate and then they knew that I didn’t go to my math class my whole first semester. I had a 7:30 math class, you know and I, I didn’t do as well that first year, like I definitely was put in my place, you know, but I had to keep a certain GPA. I did really well in my upper division, once I chose my major and got serious about it. I was really good at what they call “pump and dump.” Like, I could look at this piece of paper and close my eyes and then remember it on the test. Which is not a great way, but if you’re memorizing like tax facts and all kinds of stuff... So, it worked for me. I was good at like maximizing all of it. I would work for fourteen days in a row and then we’d go out of town and then you know, like I definitely, but I would say that, I 11 would say the money, possibly the discipline... And then, back to that whole clique thing, so.. You’re just kind of like, maybe I just didn’t feel like, back then it was like, “Oh, you’re from Ogden.” And it was that way for a long time, still is sometimes, but you know, just maybe that. They all went to high school together so they went to college together. But I made my own friends and I have a lot of friends from Salt Lake as well, but maybe just that, maybe feeling like I wasn’t as good as some of these wealthy Salt Lake girls. But I don’t, it didn’t damage me or anything. That was just maybe a challenge. Like you know, when you don’t have anything and everybody has cute clothes and this and that and just maybe a little bit of self-esteem, but still. I have a pretty good self-esteem, I had a really fun jobs, so fun friends at work and all of that. It’s interesting for me for my son to go there cause he’s just not part of that clique at all. SS: Do you remember what your first job was? KB: Oh yeah. Very much. My first job, my parents bought the restaurant when I was young, like maybe nine years old or eight years old. That was my first job. I was washing dishes. I mean, it was babysitting and washing dishes at Sandy’s, and then eventually I was a server and I made really good money. But then my fun high school job was working at “Golf City.” It’s not there anymore, but that was like the best job. Like I kind of did that my last summer too, so I was kind of doing both, like working at Golf City cause that was super fun, hang out and all of that, and then worked for my parents. And I worked really hard for my parents, I learned a lot working with them and it was a blast, it was a blast growing up working with them in their restaurant, you know? 12 SS: You were really busy. KB: I was. I had the ability to stay up late and cram it out, you know. I’m a procrastinator, that’s for sure. I’m not as good at it now, but... SS: So what motivated you to go into the field that you chose? KB: Do you want to say the restaurant business or do you want to say accounting out of college? SS: Whatever you want. Or both. KB: Ok. Well, I was really good at math and I got, I had an accounting class, they used to teach accounting in high school, and I was good, I... I thought it was so interesting to balance stuff. And I still like to balance stuff and numbers make a lot of sense to me. Not so much like calculus anymore, and things like that, but you know, numbers just made a lot of sense to me. And then the restaurant business, I mean... Goll, I don’t know. I just didn’t want to do it, but then I could see that there is a freedom of owning your own business and, you know, Pete had already laid the framework with my parents, so they had been open a couple of years before I ... and I eventually took a job here and I was still making more money than him, and eventually like, and I was like, “Ok. If I quit and do the front then he can focus on the food and I can do...” And I didn’t realize that I’m actually a pretty good marketer too, like I kind of have that inner marketing capability, or, it’s really more of an interconnection to be able to connect with people. And that’s what I didn’t like about being in accounting, is it’s pretty, you know, computer intensive, which... I like a little bit of both. And so, you know, I don’t know how I decided to make the jump, but I think I could just see what our opportunity was 13 for the restaurant business, and like I said, when we made the decision, I’m like, “Alright, I’m moving to Ogden, we are going to use our resources and work together.” And Pete had no preconceived notions about Ogden, so he didn’t have that, so he just thought it was the coolest town near places to recreate and all of that, so I’m like, “We’re going to make this a place, use our resources to make this a place that our kids are proud to say they’re from,” instead of maybe embarrassed, like I was, to say I was from Ogden. Which is terrible to say, I can’t believe that, but you know, I was a high school girl. And they are. It’s super cool to me to see my loud and proud boys at the U and the University of Montana Missoula and just proud to be from Ogden, and then also, just to see, more than anything, just to see the town change itself. But as far as choosing the field, I think I just, I just saw that we could be better, we could do better. Like it could be easier on him, we had something special going on cause we were kind of one of the first restaurants and then it just kind of flew from there. And then I would also say, just like the brewery side of it, where we have the breweries, I worked at Squatter’s my last year of college and so we had considered adding a brewery onto Union Grill and then we had this other opportunity with Rooster’s and so, and then it became... just more about the people and the fun and being able to share spaces, gathering spaces and... I mean, I love the employees, I love the customers, and so probably that, like I kind of found my calling in the middle of that. Like I still wish I work everyday in the restaurant, I can’t, I have to do like bigger stuff now. But that, and then I could also combine that working with people as well as doing our books, I’m a way better accountant for my own books than I 14 was for Price Waterhouse. Cause for Price Waterhouse you’re doing like this one little piece of the pie, where with your own you’re like, “Oh! That’s how a balance sheet and a financial statement work together.” And then kind of back to the mentoring, the Fairbanks, Rick and Karen kind of pulled me into the community stuff. Which is a big part of my life, like I’m almost like a professional volunteer, community person. Or I have been over the years, put it that way. But it’s also guided to our businesses as well. So that’s the story. SS: So did you start Union Grill first or Rooster’s first? KB: Union Grill started first with Pete when I was in DC and then we opened Roosters in April of 1995, and we had another couple that were our partners the first seven years, a woman that had an old antique shop in the building, and we bought her out I think seven years after we opened. And then we opened Layton a couple of years after that and then we just took another big place, E Street Brewery. You got to go in there for lunch, it’s a good place. It’s really more, I’m really saying more than a restaurant because that’s really a big brewery with a little eating place, where our other places are big restaurants with little breweries, so. Get a babysitter, you have to 21 to go, but it’s like good, quick food. It’s a great little spot. It’s fun being out there gritty again, like when we opened Rooster’s and we’re all like, there was some stuff happening, but not a lot. I mean it’s so fun for me to look back now and just see the people and the businesses and people that have come and gone and this whole younger generation just thriving and it’s cool. 15 SS: That’s awesome. So when you started your business, you didn’t have kids right away, right? So once you had children, did you kind of have everything up and running, I mean, were you still kind of in the trenches? KB: No, we were in the trenches. So we opened Rooster’s in ’95, April of ’95. We got married in ’93, so we had kind of a couple of years at Union Grill, opened Rooster’s and worked day and night, honestly day and night figuring it all out. And that’s why I can’t believe, I just can’t believe—and I always thought, you know, the whole risk thing, like we were just kind of young enough and dumb enough and thought, “We can always go get a job if it doesn’t work out,” you know, we took on a big loan to remodel that building, and it’s harder, like the older you get, it’s not that easy to, you know, that risk, the weight of that risk over the years is a challenge. But we had Jackson in ’97 and I literally worked, I was running those stairs—running those Rooster’s stairs—until I had him. And then I had, I always had, I’ve been blessed with the most amazing women that have worked for me over the years, those nannies, and they’re kind of more like house managers almost. And because I could go back and forth, I could go home in the afternoon, we might be together, but just like that help with the laundry or grocery shopping—not the laundry. I like to do my own laundry. But we just sort of had all these people come, we had some really solid people for like the first, when out kids were really little, and then we just had, it’s kind of evolved into a driver or a pick-up person and then obviously now we don’t have anybody, but we’ve had some really wonderful people in our lives that have helped. We have a village, that’s for sure. You know. But no, when we opened Rooster’s I still had to go 16 back and make decisions, I mean, just do all that. Kept working, basically. And eventually, with each child, it got a little bit different. Like, it just kept growing and now you can hire that manager or this or that, so. SS: The restaurant business is tricky and difficult and I don’t think people realize how much work goes into it. KB: The restaurant business is super tricky, super... the margins are slim and then when the economy hit in 2008, like when the economy tanked, that was a really tricky time. But we made it. I mean, I don’t know, I’ve talked to other, I have a friend who’s a restaurateur and we were talking the other day and he’s like, “People don’t realize like you’re one payroll, they look at you like, ‘Oh, you’re a restauranteur, you’re so successful, there’s all these people here.’ They don’t realize like your one payroll away from going out of business.” You just hope it keeps working. SS: And just getting the clientele is tricky, like you guys have nailed it. KB: It’s good. But I think it’s because we did make that really conscious decision to be a gathering space first and a restaurant second. And we got into it at a time when, yeah, just all these other budding things of Ogden were happening, like the nature center and the art center and the.... it’s been special to be able to share. People love to be able to come together around food, so if you have some food to share or some resources or whatever, it’s good to do that. SS: It’s very social. So tell me, I heard that Union Grill moved. Did you guys move recently? 17 KB: We did. We were in the Union Station for 25 years and we moved, it’s been three years in August. We have a beautiful new space in a very old historic space, it’s the Berthana. And yeah, we’ve really elevated our business. We’re kind of there between the business corridor now. In the beginning that was kind of the hub, but then when things started going over with the Junction and all of that, so now we’re kind of in between both districts, and that’s a great place for them to be. And we have a really large catering operation, especially at Union Grill, we cater out of Rooster’s too, but Union Grill has, and then we’ve got some lower level really cool event space. And that’s kind of a challenge, you know. Like, ok, we’ve been open for, Union Grill has been open for 27, 28 years, and to keep reinventing yourself, that was a really good move for us, you know, it’s hip, it’s fresh, but it’s historic. It turned out so nice. It’s always neat to do new stuff because it just shifts opportunities for the people that work for you too. But man it feels big, after we’ve opened this last place. That was a big move, Union Grill was... And I am not afraid to say it, an oral history, I have struggled for a long time with anxiety, like that kind of comes and goes, and it seems like every time we open a new place and it’s because it’s a risk and I’m the one who finds the money and the financing, you know, my husband does food and does like what’s in front of him and I’m just supposed to have the vision and I don’t necessarily. But I know our numbers. SS: Well you’re doing something right. So when you moved it sounds like it was just a leap, like was it to expand or get bigger, or just to push yourself into a new market? 18 KB: Ogden didn’t know... The future of Union Station was uncertain, like they were talking about moving us out into another space and we’re just like, “No.” And because our catering business had expanded and we had been missing that hole of having our own event space and now we have, I mean we still cater externally a lot of places, but now we have a place that, it’s been a really good move. But I would say the move was 1) The uncertainty of Union Station. 2) Our lease was almost up, cause we leased from Ogden City when we were in Union Station. And yeah, my husband was just like, “We’re moving. We are moving.” And I was like, “No, we can’t move,” but it was just like the best thing. We’re like, sometimes what his role is in our relationship is he kind of says we’re doing this and then it’s up to me to finance it and figure it out, and he’s usually right. Like, ok. Alright. So that was kind of like, that was a big, bold move. And everyone was like, “What?” And literally we did it like six months later. And now we’ve been there for three years and turns out it was a great move. It was, again, serious growing pains, those first couple of years and we lost a ton of money ‘cause we had to borrow a bunch of money to move, it was a big... I mean, that’s what people don’t see is the behind-the-scenes, just the risk. But it’s working. I mean, we took on, we increased our business, but we increased all of our expenses, so for those first two years it was like, “What are we doing?” But I think we’ve finally found our rhythm. Yeah, but we’ve like double our space, doubled our lease, doubled everything. Yeah. We’ve caught up to it now. And then hopefully, the same thing will happen at E Street. I mean, we’re actually doing really well out there, just... It’s just a completely new business. We have the food part of it, but the 19 distribution, like, you know, for groceries stores and chains, out of state and all of that, that’s a whole new business. But the good thing is we have really good employees so we all kind of figure it out together and we don’t pretend like we don’t know what we don’t know. We just learn as we go. SS: That’s a good attitude, what a great way to be. Is there a time that you felt like you were particularly brave at work? Like is there something that you had to do or you had to stand up to somebody or being a female business owner? KB: Yeah, a lot of times. I... Ok, being brave. I have been in a lot of situations where I have to be brave. Kind of started with my volunteer work and like public speaking, like I’ve had to speak to like 800 people before. And like I said, the Fairbanks kind of drew me into the community service part, and to sit down and realize that most at the table are men. And I had a dear friend, Camille Cain, probably, maybe she’s being interviewed, I’m not sure, but who said that, basically, “Take your spot.” Like sit at the head of the table. And so I do that, I just sit at the head of the table. And the more you do it, the more people are like, “Oh. I guess she’s going to sit at the head of the table.” And she also said, “You can’t put lipstick on in public,” which I disagree. I like being a girl and I do not shy away from being a girl. And I feel a little bit of a bubble, because I haven’t, because I guess I always just kind of had that confidence. But you know, it’s not the experience for everyone, and maybe because I haven’t worked in that really corporate environment, because I hear these stories and I’m like, “Really? Really?” But that hasn’t been my experience, both in my community boards and all of that, but again, I would say my dad gave me a really good self-confidence. 20 But as far as yeah, being brave, several times‒ like a lot. Not only just speaking a meeting or starting to share my opinion and the more you do it the easier it is and you don’t have to worry that that person’s smarter than you. And what I have found so much is that, like if you have a question, say you’re on a board or whatever, somebody else is always thinking the same question. And I learned that pretty early on, I ask a lot of questions and I don’t feel stupid that I don’t know. But yeah I’ve had to be brave with employees. Especially brave just, yeah thoughtful public speaking, and being a public figure. I’m not a public figure, but like, to have your name in the paper, or your picture, or for people to think that you’re all of this, you have to be brave to do that, because it’s hard to think that what people think of you is not necessarily is not necessarily what you think inside. But I just think that public facing thing can be scary. Because I know I have all that anxiety underneath. And not like anxiety of... feeling like I don’t belong, but because I am a lover of people and a giver and all of that, like I feel like I’m not giving enough. And I’ve had counselling for all of that because, and continue to, you know. This whole mindfulness wave is awesome. If you have a brain that’s always going and it will never be good enough. Anyway. SS: I can relate to that actually, I totally understand. So, as you were going through all of this, did you ever have anybody judge you or give you a hard time because you were a working mom. You were doing all of this, I mean you have accomplished so much, you’ve been so busy. Or were people supportive all the time? 21 KB: I think people were supportive, I think it’s almost your own guilt of being a working mom, but having other friends who have, it was more personal guilt. Like I want to be that friend that her husband makes a lot of money and can be home and go to lunch and all that, but she wants to be me. And so finding kind of that in between is great, but I think it’s, I think I’m just the hardest on myself. I think probably my mom would have liked me to work less, ‘cause I think she wanted to work less. But I didn’t feel, I never have felt judged from other people, maybe it’s just myself, you know. Like, hard on myself, basically. Because I think as women we want to have it all. You hear other women talk and it’s like, you always hear people say, “Oh, you’re looking for the ‘balance.’” Well, I don’t want to say it, but balance is bullshit. I mean, you’ll have times when you feel, but you know there’s always a pull. Like there is always a pull ‘cause you’re a mom, like you’re a mom and it’s always a pull. You always could be, I’ve tried to make it all work and it’s good that Pete and I work together so that we could divide and conquer and try to be at stuff and all of that. It’s been nicer later in life. Like I’ve been really involved with school, in my kids’ schools and stuff, and have been able to be pretty involved later in life because my schedule is more flexible. SS: That’s awesome. So, this kind of goes off of brave, but as a woman, how would you define courage? KB: That’s a hard one. I should have thought about that. I would define courage as believing in yourself and daring to kind of do what you want to do. And to show your heart. I guess that would be for me. Courage is daring to show your heart and your emotion. Like, your real self, you know? And that you have flaws and 22 you have strengths, and maybe that’s what I’m brave about, is that I’m not the first to share that I, publicly share, that I struggle with anxiety, but I also know that I’m a lover of people and good at some stuff. So I think courage is being able to not hide who you really are. I have a friend who’s an attorney and she was talking to me last night, she just got back from like a song writing trip and she said, “You know I always—” It’s kind of like, there’s a special place, back east, that she goes, and she’s like, “I always have to kind of quell that part of me,” and she’s like, “And I’ve decided now that I don’t need to do that. I can be an attorney and have my creative, passionate side, and I can show that at work.” And I’m like, “Good on you, Mara.” Cause I can do that, cause I don’t have a boss. I think that’s hard if you, how that’s perceived. So. I’m not sure how you’re going to write this up, but. SS: It’s wonderful. So we kind of touched base of this, about how you said there’s not really a true balance. You said that you had a lot of help, people were helping you. So when your kids were young, were you at the restaurant at night and you had them with somebody or you were able to kind of shift? KB: As we started to have kids, I was able to be home more at night, it was really more of a day thing. And it was like a pick-up from school, that kind of stuff, but there’s times, and especially because I’ve done so much community work, that... it was good though, like we, Pete and I were kind of able to balance that together. Like, he’s not as public facing and he doesn’t enjoy that as much as I do, so I don’t want to say it’s balanced, ‘cause you could always be missing something and at first everybody wants to see every mile stone and every 23 everything, but then also, I think that we just have a lot of love in our home and there’s a lot of love and you know... affection and fun and funny and, and like I said, that co-parenting has helped with the balance, that he’s so involved, he’s just as involved as I am. SS: How wonderful. So this is kind of a probing question, but what the term “women’s work” means to you. What would you classify that as? KB: Like... stereotypically, or just in general? SS: Just whatever it means to you. I know, it’s kind of a weird question. KB: When somebody says women’s work, I think that they think of housework and grocery shopping and doing the schedules, and, like I do that in my house. I’m the scheduler. And I admit that I’m better at that. I’m better at... I’m education mom, like I’m homework mom and when I need Pete’s help but that, I feel sort of in control of that, like that’s something that I’m good at. But can I cook a meal like Pete can? No. Can I do the dishes that fast? No, cause it’s just not, just like in sheer time thing, I think the women’s work is better for Pete to do in our family. But I would say stereotypically women’s work are more those household duties, running the house, running around, keeping the schedule, planning the vacations. And that’s why it’s kind of hard, sometimes, to be a woman, because we are good at planning the vacations, we are good at all of that, but we also have a lot of things to give otherwise as well. But I would say, women who work and also do women’s work are pretty amazing women. 24 SS: Absolutely. So, since you... became educated on your own, which is so impressive, how do you think education empowers women or shapes their abilities of what they can do? KB: I think education is amazing. And I just think you push yourself in ways that you get more confidence, period. And you learn about other cultures and other people and other places and, I mean, I don’t have a graduate degree, but maybe I will sometime, but I just think it’s just more than about what your degree is, I think it’s a confidence building thing. Like I really do think that, and I will, I’ll give you an example. So, I have a couple of friends who didn’t go to college and go their degrees later in life. And I have one dear friend who got her degree later in life and we became friends through our children’s school and to see what her confidence level is now—and she was the most amazing mother, like the perfect mother, all of that. She was one that I would like to be if I wasn’t working. You know, surprises them on the vacations, and the Easter stuff, and all that. I’d be like, it’s a good thing I have boys. I’ve got to be honest. It’s a good thing I have boys because I wouldn’t know how to do hair, I’m not a big... I’m a feminine girl, but I’m not a girly girl. I didn’t die my hair until I had to when I was like 47. And now I have to. But I, I lost my train of thought. What was I talking about? Oh, just education. So just to see that dear friend of mine, and now she has her graduate degree and this and that, so she did it in reverse—same thing, my youngest sister is doing it in reverse, and seeing her confidence grow and seeing that lack of confidence before, like I didn’t think a degree was a big deal, like I thought it was good and I was proud that I got one, but I didn’t understand why these 25 friends of mine that I think are amazing had this internal self-esteem thing that they weren’t as good as some of our other friends who went to college. I was like, “What is that? You are amazing, you’re more well read, you’re this, that,” but I think it’s a confidence builder. I just think you kind of get pushed and... I hate to see people dropping out of college, especially young girls, I’m like, “No, just keep going.” And I love the young ones that are, still want to be a mom, but still figure out the college, too, doesn’t just become about their husbands. And I support everyone, everyone’s got to take their own path. But it is, I just think it’s a real confidence builder, in your home relationship, in your work relationship, with your family, your kids, all of that. Some people say, “Oh, it’s just so expensive to get a degree, it’s not even worth it unless you have a graduate degree,” and I disagree. I totally disagree. SS: I agree with you, I think it’s a good experience. Absolutely. So this is the big question, so our project is centered around, so the hundredth anniversary for the 19th amendment is coming up this next year, and the exhibit will be up in March, which is also women’s history month. How do you think women receiving the right to vote influenced history, your community, and yourself personally? KB: Ok, I think that took that for granted. But the more history that I look back on, and the older I get and read obviously novels and women’s history and then also being a part of the Junior League of Ogden and seeing that whole volunteer movement grow and train volunteers to become women in their community, and so I think very empowering and I think, ok, you know everyone’s like, always say, “Oh, you’re the unofficial mayor of Ogden.” It’s like, “No, I’m not.” But I could be 26 the mayor of Ogden if I wanted to be and really went for it, but I think that it’s come a long way and now we’re in the middle of #MeToo and all this kind of stuff and I think it’s just like [recording ends]. SS: So you were telling us about Junior League and then had been invited to a bunch of boards and all that. KB: Yeah, so I started... This is funny, because I was 30 years old, I had my first child, Jackson, he was five weeks old, and I totally remember this, I got the call from Rick Fairbanks, he’s like, “Hey, you should be on the Ogden/Weber Chamber of Commerce Board.” And I was like, “No, that’s for old people, I’m not old enough to do that.” Like, “No.” He’s like, “No, no, I think you would really like it. I think you would be good.” And that was kind of scary, like to do that, because that was a bunch of men, and so, but it was good to have him, a male mentor, Rick kind of sitting by my side and then, we’ve done a ton of stuff. I mean, we do John Goddard Business School. I’ve done a ton of stuff, but like I would say, I’m most proud of, I was one of the founding members for the Goal Foundation, after the Olympics, and so we have that whole, and it’s just built into something I could never imagine. I also recently, like in the last five years, helped start the Ogden Downtown Alliance, and doing all these immense—Historic 25th Street Association, I’ve been on the Zions Bank Advisory Board, I’ve been on a ton of things... Ski Utah Board, you know, Dinosaur Park, when my kids were younger, lots of school stuff, lots of school volunteer stuff. And now I’m on the Utah Office of Tourism Board which I love, and I also love, love, love the Weber Basin Water Board, and Karen Fairbanks was on that, and talk about when you get that... And 27 I’ve done a ton of Air Force Stuff, Air Force civilian stuff. And people are like, “How do you do all that?” And I’m like, “How do I do all that? I don’t know.” Like that’s, those are some of those balance moments. But I’m really interested in how things work and how the organization works and all of that, and so you just kind of... You know, hospital boards, I don’t know, it seems like, and it was never just like, “Oh, put this on your resume.” Genuinely interested. When I say yes, I don’t miss a meeting or I very rarely miss a meeting and... But the Weber Basin Water, water is like everything now, right, so—and I am the only woman on that board and that is very, but I love those guys and that was one that Karen Fairbanks was on before and when they called me, I’m like, “I don’t know anything about water,” and she would tell me, she was on it because her dad was in water, and she would say, “It’s the most interesting thing I did.” I’m like, “Really? Whatever.” But really, I mean I think on my eighth year now or, yeah, I think I’m on my eighth year, and I’m the finance chair and chair of the board. I’m usually always in leadership positions. Usually. Especially if I’m into it, you know. And that is a total pleasure and honor to be involved with that. What else have I done? Just lots of stuff. But that’s... it’s kind of a blending like, a lot of, more Weber State stuff now, which is fun, I’m on the John Goddard Business advisory council. But it’s been fun to be more involved up here at Weber State, too, cause this was kind of a... Like, because I didn’t go to Weber State it was kind of a mystery to me, and even how education worked. But it’s fascinating, too, and I have friends that are working up here now. No... But I really have been most proud of... You know, I’m just the most proud of seeing a town’s self-esteem 28 change, you know, and seeing a culture change in a town, like... And what I love about Ogden is the blending of the LDS community and non-LDS, and these younger people are working here now and people aren’t afraid of downtown and I’m so, like... to me that’s the history there, to me that was the best decision that we made, is 1) like the friends that I surrounded myself had no preconceived notions about Ogden, they thought Ogden was cool, a lot, most of them were transplants here, ‘cause all of my friends left. And so to see a town love itself and like, every time I go to the farmer’s market I get like teared up because I’m just like, you know, three blocks closed, I can just be a guest now. I’m not the one out there like changing barricades and doing that, and there’s a lot of heart, just honestly working with my neighbors on my street, on historic 25th Street. I mean those friendships like are solid. Our friendships and us building our businesses together and doing those events before the Alliance took it over and figuring out how it works with the city and being a good city partner and just to see, just this younger generation rising up is so rewarding to me. And just makes me so happy that my little businesses have been able to be a part of that, and just a catalyst, you know, just a different way to look. Because when we first opened on 25th Street, I mean, there were older people that were like, “The city this and the city that,” and, “The city doesn’t do this for me,” and I’m like, “Why do we need a city to do this for us? Let’s do this for ourselves and let’s empower ourselves,” and then I met other friends and we just did stuff together and we weren’t afraid to do stuff together. It’s just so fun for me, it’s so much cooler than I ever could have 29 imagined and I’m just, I’m proud of that. And I’m proud to see that happen and just to have this be my town. SS: Yeah. That’s so cool. I like that... A lot of people don’t take pride in their home. ST: Well, ‘cause I was born and raised here, and when I was a kid, before the ‘90s, you didn’t go down there. You didn’t go to 25th Street. Now everyone hangs out down there all the time. KB: Do you guys come down on Saturdays for the market? It’s so... I had friends in town from Jacksonville, these two girlfriends that I went to France with last summer, and I took them down last Saturday and it’s just so... fun to see all these different people, like all agers, you know, the hipsters, the old people, the families, it’s just like. Ah. It’s unbelievable. I think it’s just more like that we share our heart and the people share our hearts, cause it’s special down there, you know? SS: Yeah, I worked the Heritage Days Festival, I was with Voterize down there and it was so much fun, like it was cool to see the people and see outside people coming in and enjoying our city. Super cool. KB: See that, the Heritage Festival was organized by Visit Ogden and the Alliance and two of those girls that run those organizations, maybe you’ve interviewed Sara Toliver and Kim Bowsher, I don’t know, but they’re badasses. You know, and I’m like, “Ok, my work is done.” I seriously have been moving more into an advisory role and I remember it when the Fairbanks, they were more in their fifties and like, ok, sort of, “Tag, you’re it.” “I don’t want to be it!” Like, ok now I’m... It’s not even “tag, you’re it,” they’re just like rising up and there’s all these 30 other... And that’s what I love about Ogden, too, it’s like the ease of entry, cause it’s not... We don’t have huge incomes on all of that, but if you want to be involved, you can. So it’s pretty cool. Yeah, it’s kind of crazy. SS: Is there anything else that we maybe didn’t cover that you would like to include or do you have any advice for women that are coming out of college or coming up as younger women? KB: Just go big. Just go big with your heart and, you know, just... I don’t want to say do what you love, but do what you love! You know, there’s that saying, “Do what you love, love what you do,” and you’re not always going to love it, like I would say there’s hard times. And I would say now that I’m older, sometimes I didn’t see that there’s a brighter day, and because of the anxiety, but yeah, I think that... the suns shines tomorrow. And like... I don’t know, I’d just say, yeah, “Do what you love, love what you do.” SS: That’s wonderful. Thank you. KB: Thanks, you guys!