Oral History Program Susan Madsen Interviewed by Carlee Madsen 31 March 2017 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Susan Madsen Interviewed by Carlee Madsen 31 March 2017 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Madsen, Susan, an oral history by Carlee Madsen, 31 March 2017, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Susan Madsen Circa 2008 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview Dr. Susan R. Madsen, conducted on March 31, 2017 at Utah Valley University by Carlee Madsen. Susan discusses her life and her experiences as a female leader in Northern Utah. CM: This is an oral history interview with Dr. Susan Madsen, Professor of Leadership and Ethics at Utah Valley University. It's being conducted by Carlee Madsen on March 31, 2017 at 3:30 p.m. at Dr. Madsen's office at Utah Valley University. In this interview, with Dr. Madsen, we will be discussing her recollections and experiences as a female leader in Utah. Dr. Madsen, please start by telling us about your background, like your childhood, teen years, how you grew up, family values, education: those types of things. SM: That's a big question. I grew up in Utah until I was 11 in the Hunter area on the west side. Then when I was 11, I moved to northern Idaho in Coeur d'Alene for a few years, then Moscow, Idaho for a few years. So, different places. I was raised with parents who were very spiritual and religious. My father worked for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with the LDS seminary and institutes. I was raised in a very religious environment where we read the scriptures every day, did our family home evening every week. We had weekly interviews with our father, or time, which I used mostly for 30-minutes of ping-pong; we could choose what we did during most of those times. I grew up with one older brother and five younger brothers, the last one being 10 years behind me. That had a great impact on my life, being the only daughter. Like I said, we were raised very spiritually, but also very active. We hiked a lot, especially when we lived in Coeur d'Alene. We played basketball, I 1 was an athlete, and competed from the time I was very young - which has an influence on how I lead. I competed in basketball, horse, and softball. I didn't have any friends who lived close, so once a week I had a girl to play with. But mostly me playing with my brothers, so I learned how to do more competitive things. I learned how to move on when you fall down, because I was raised with my brothers. In terms of values, [I would say] hard work. We were very frugal. We earned our own money. We got up early, we worked hard. A couple of summers when I was eight and nine, we lived at BYU with my dad while he was doing his master's degree. Then when I was 15/16, we came down from Idaho in the summers and lived in Provo, Utah, while my dad finished his doctoral degree. We lived in apartments, so we would get jobs and my mom would drive us, and then we would be home by noon. Then she would take us to the pool or the lake, wherever we lived, so we could play in the afternoons. Through watching my dad get all of his education, I learned how important education was. My dad got further education, but didn't necessarily change jobs. Somehow within me, which is different for women in Utah, I knew that education was more than just a job. I knew that you needed it for life, and I got that from my dad. Education, hard work, honesty: very strong ethics, and I think that came from my mom and my dad. You just tell the truth, and you work hard, and you do what is right, and you step forward when people need your help, and you serve, and you don't need to get money for everything. 2 We lived, when I was in high school, in Moscow, Idaho; it was totally focused on university. The importance of college and staying in college and graduating college was just part of the culture that I grew up in, and that was very important to me. My mother didn't graduate; she went to two years of college for nursing, but she was always reading books and learning. She has a stack of books, still. So I think I saw that all the way up, and being in a university town, I just always knew I would go to college and graduate. Also, I was in music all the way up. I played the violin, and my senior year I played the cello. I was also in the orchestra and the choir and did plays. I had things to practice being a leader then. I had church callings that were leadership when I was in my teenage years. My mom, to this day, will say that I just kind of ran the youth program. So, during the stake dance festival I was teaching everyone how to do the various dances. I think those church opportunities for me to lead, and also to sing and be in front of people, really helped give me confidence. I think that played a part as well. CM: What experiences did you have in your childhood, teen years, or adult years that led you to believe that you were or could be a leader? SM: During my research, I have had time to reflect on this. For some reason, when I interview governors or I had dinners last year with the Prime of Sylvania, I can interview people and work with people and not get intimidated by them. People have asked me, "How did you get that?” And as I have reflected, I came to mind that I was always a good musician, I could sing and play the piano; I was in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and I started teaching piano lessons when I was 13 3 because there was a need for that. When I started, I actually ended up having two adults in addition to children. There were also some teenagers who were older than me that I taught when I was 13 and 14. I remember always just thinking that I could do that. That experience gave me a taste of, “I may not know everything, but I have this one area that I have expertise and that adults will listen to me.” I found true joy in watching and helping them. At 13 and 14, that's pretty young, but watching the progress just gave me so much satisfaction and joy to watch someone else progress. I think that experience, it's the earliest I can remember, and I am sure I bossed people around, like my brothers before then. I also sang in groups with older people in trios and so forth, while young, so I think there was some confidence that came, maybe not in every area, but in this musical area that I had some skills and some teaching abilities that could benefit others. As I have thought through that, I think that experience was helpful. I really kept teaching, like the dance festival thing. I taught plays, and I would help with other people doing it. I was really self-taught. My mother said that the adults just let me go and supported me, which actually is a gift, because there are a lot of adults, especially women, in the LDS church who like to micromanage. But the adults that I worked with just backed up and just kind of let me go, and I just think that was a gift. CM: What are your core values, and how have they influenced your leadership experience or abilities? SM: The ones that I have mentioned already: hard work, the core value of education and learning, honesty and ethics, have really guided me. In fact, I think I'm 4 having an "a-ha" right now because those are exactly what I am doing right now. I would be leading the efforts in Utah or globally if I wasn't a hard worker, which isn't something to brag about, but I can out-work just about anybody, and people know that. I am a slight bit of a workaholic. No, that was sarcastic, I am quite a workaholic. But when you are willing to put in some time, you just get more done, even if you’re efficient. I combine that with my love for learning and education, and that really guided me in starting the Utah Women in Education Initiative in 2009. I still speak about that often—it's been about eight years. Of course, my job is in education and teaching, so those core values have really influenced everything that I do. [For example] even providing events for the Utah Women in Leadership Project, they are all educational. And then I teach business ethics and corporate social responsibility, so we are talking about right and wrong, and ethics, and morality. To a fault sometimes, I have a deep core value that we are put on this earth to truly make a difference. Not just to ourselves, and not just to our families; that's important too. We should work hard throughout our life to make things better for people around, to help them find peace, or to help them be more marketable, or to help them understand themselves so they can be better. Then there’s the core value of service. I do service differently than a lot of women in my church, but it's still service, and it’s all part of that core. I see all of those things coming together [as my core values]. 5 CM: Name a person who has had a tremendous influence on you as a leader. Why and how did this person influence your life generally and in your leadership abilities specifically? SM: There's not one person exactly, but I think I'll talk about my dad. The core thing that has really driven me is education. His example, and my mother was very influential as well, but I think him having a love and a knowledge that education was so important. It didn't change his job, but it was linked to him for pay increases in some ways, but he had such a love for education. I watched him do his education and how important it was for him and his learning and how much he grew. By the way, I always thought from a young age that my father's job was so much more interesting than my mother's job in the home. I was like, "actually, I want to do my father's job." But with him, particularly when we moved to Coeur d'Alene and then Moscow and the different places, he also had an entrepreneurial spirit. He understood how to build buildings and how to restructure buildings, because he was a drafter initially in the Army, and then had skills to do that. So he would go and create and find some facility, and then design plans and work with people on new buildings. Then he would create new programs and invite the young adults who were college students to do that as well. That, actually, impacted me quite a bit, that you can go out and you can create new things and you can see new things happen: things that benefit people and change people's lives. 6 That's what I do. I have this confidence. I don't really like to do things that other people have done, as much. I like to ask, "Where is the gap? Where's the new thing to do?" And of course, my father is upright and honest to the very foundation. He is a much quieter person than me. His whole thing for me is that he wanted me to be humble. I was a singer and I got lots of attention, so it's not that we are perfectly aligned in those types of things, but I did learn the importance of humility and the importance of obedience and doing what you're taught, and doing what God wants you to do, and listening for that call on what you're supposed to do in your life. So he was very influential in my life and still is. CM: What do you see are the biggest challenges that face women leaders in Northern Utah, and what do you do to overcome these challenges? SM: Some of the biggest challenges here, and we've done lots of reports and published them, are the lack of women leaders. Although that is changing, there are still fewer women leaders. The research talks about that it's hard to have more women in the pipeline---from girls to young women to early career--- who aspire to lead and have the ambition to lead if they don't see women in the more senior positions. Also, we have, here in Utah, women and girls who have lower aspirations. That's a problem around the world and the United States, but in Utah, I think we have a little bit more that leadership looks a certain way. So, we don't aspire to leadership and we don't identify with it. There is a leadership identity theory, but if you don't identify with the person or see yourself in the leader, or [think] that a leader looks a certain way, so you think you can look that 7 way. I think all of those are challenging. Some of those are internal, but there are cultural issues here in Utah in terms of unconscious bias and social norms that really favor men leaders. That is really every place as well, but I think we see that more here in Utah because of the lower number of women in business and in education and those kinds of settings. So those things can make it somewhat challenging. But on the other hand, there is some really good movement and awareness of why women need to be leaders, and why men can benefit, and why the state can benefit from having more women leaders. I see things are moving and I am really happy about that. CM: What advice would you give to emerging young women leaders in order to be successful? SM: Part of leadership development is understanding and reflecting, really understanding yourself. So, I would say: first of all, get your education. The link between a college education, particularly at the bachelor's degree or higher, is very strongly linked with confidence, with self-esteem, with leading in the community, all of those things. So that is the first thing, is getting college, or go back to college and get your education, especially at the bachelor's degree and even more. Then take opportunities to do leadership development or work in the community to practice leadership. Don't just look at who's out there leading and let that discourage you, because there are places that women need to lead, and it's just a benefit to everyone to lead. There is a place for you. You need to lead. 8 You should not have a choice; actually, you need to lead. That can be done in a company or in a church setting or a PTA setting. All girls and women need to have a voice and have confidence and lead. CM: Are there any other final insights you would share about being a woman leader in Utah that we haven't talked about or would like to wrap up with? SM: One of the things women here in Utah struggle with, but also women at large, is oftentimes we want to be comfortable and want to stay in our comfort zones. But true growth and true development and preparing yourself to make a difference means that you need to get out of your comfort zone. We like, as women, to be a little bit more in our comfort zone, but that takes away from growth. I believe from my religion that we must be growing and learning all of the time. That's what we are commanded to do. We are commanded to become better at speaking and talking to people and leading change and all that. That means that we need to get out of our comfort zones because there is a true place of where growth happens. We have got to help girls and young women get used to, when they are young, to take risks. It's okay if you fail sometimes. It really sucks, but it's okay, and that is where the confidence comes from. We as women, particularly in Utah, need to have self-compassion. I have had to work with myself with that, but the research on confidence says that when you are too hard on yourself, then actually you have less confidence. Confidence means that you try new things, you take risks, you get out there. That's when you actually increase your confidence, even if you fail sometimes. So, for me, the more I learn I about leadership and the more I learn about me, and how women's 9 brains are different than men's, we have got to be more conscious. Take that unconscious stuff that happens in terms of women ruminating, or perfectionism, or all these issues that we talk about, and just understand them and wrestle with them. Then use them to be more effective ourselves and to help girls and women do that themselves. We will benefit our families; we will benefit the world. I believe that we, as women of Utah, need to not just prepare ourselves to work and lead change in Utah, but we are a privileged bunch. We have education, a bunch of us, and the means that we can reach out and help nationally, and internationally as well. CM: Well, Dr. Madsen, thank you for letting us interview you and for your insights. SM: Thank you. 10