Oral History Program Grant Ulrigg Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 7 September 2022 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Grant Ulrigg Interviewed by Lorrie Rands 7 September 2022 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description Queering the Archives oral history project is a series of oral histories from the LGBTQ+ communities of Weber, Davis and Morgan Counties of Northern Utah. Each interview is a life interview, documenting the interviewee’s unique experiences growing up queer. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Ulrigg, Grant, an oral history by Lorrie Rands, 7 September 2022, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections & University Archives (SCUA), Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Grant Ulrigg conducted on September 7, 2022 in the Stewart Library by Lorrie Rands. Grant talks about growing up in Washington State and splitting his time between his parents. He shares his struggles with his sexuality and coming out after high school. He also talks about moving to Ogden, Utah to attend Weber State University. Also present is Sarah Langsdon. LR: Today is September 7, 2022. We are here in the Stewart Library doing an oral history interview with Grant Ulrigg for the Queering the Archives Project at the Stewart Library Special Collections. I am Lorrie Rands conducting and Sarah Langsdon is here as well. All right, again, thank you for your willingness to share your story. GU: Of course. LR: Let's just begin with when and where you were born? GU: I was born May 26, 1981, in Renton, Washington. LR: Renton, Washington. GU: Yeah, Renton. It's like 20 minutes south of Seattle. LR: Okay. Is that where you grew up? GU: Yeah. I moved here about seven and a half years ago. LR: So growing up in Reston? GU: Renton. LR: Can you spell it? GU: R-E-N-T-O-N. LR: Exactly the way it sounds. GU: Yeah. Okay, well, my parents were split, so Renton and Federal Way. That's where I grew up. LR: Federal Way. Okay. GU: Exactly how you think it's spelled. 1 LR: And is it one word? GU: No, it's two words. LR: Federal Way, all right. Growing up in Renton, what was your family dynamic like? GU: Split. LR: When you say split, what do you mean? GU: So my parents split up when I was a year and a half, and their divorce was finalized when I was three. My dad remarried my stepmom, which I believe was when I was four or five, so pretty quick. My mom remarried back when I was nine and then had my brother when I was ten. LR: So you just have one brother? GU: Just the one half-brother. LR: I'm trying to think of what to ask you next. Okay, so what are your parents' names? GU: So my dad's name is Allen. My mom and my stepmom are both named Cindy. My mom's full name is Cynthia, but they both go by Cindy, but different spellings. My stepdad's name is Jerry. LR: Thank you. All right. So you said you were nine when your half-brother was born? GU: Well, almost ten. He was born in February; my birthday's in May. LR: So I know this question is subjective, but growing up as an only child, all of a sudden you have a sibling, do you remember what that was like? GU: I do remember I was disappointed because it wasn't a girl, because I really wanted a sister. Over the last, I don't know, probably seven years is when we really started to get close. We've had some things and similar aspects, but especially when high school started. I was really into things at school, so even when I was at my mom's, I was doing things. We didn't really get to be too close until he joined high school. We're kind of in that mentality a little bit more. 2 LR: Okay, where did you go to elementary school in Renton? GU: Maplewood Heights Elementary School. LR: What are some of your memories around elementary school? GU: Tetherball. I was very good at it. Every recess, that's the only thing I would do is tetherball. LR: Okay. Did that require another person? GU: Yeah. LR: I don't know anything about tetherball. GU: [To Sarah] Do you? SL: Yes. GU: Okay. It's really weird. So you're in a circle, and then there's a pole right in the middle, and then your side is divided in half. There's a ball, like a dodgeball, like… LR: Or volleyball? GU: Yeah. Ball, connect it to a string. One person is trying to get it wrapped all the way one way, and the other person is trying to get it wrapped all the way up the other way. LR: Okay, I do know what this is. GU: You had to spike it down so it would jump up really high or you had to get it away from the other person and make it keep going your way. LR: Why did you enjoy that so much? GU: I'm not sure, but I just remember that's all I would ever do [laughing]. LR: Okay, fair enough. Go ahead… Why are you laughing? GU: I don't know, because I haven't thought about it in a long time. LR: That makes sense. Going back to your family and growing up in that regard… This is why I was trying to decide which order to ask these questions in. What were you taught about gender roles growing up? 3 GU: I think there were definitely expectations of me, growing up as a male. Men do the harder work and more physically labored work and stuff like that. But most of the time my parents were pretty open. I did cheerleading in middle school, I did musical theater from the time I was eight up to my senior year in high school, so I don't feel like I was really too pressured into gender roles as society sees them. But I also don't think I felt safe in really expressing too much, because I didn't come out to friends until 18. LR: So as you were going to elementary school, did you see those gender roles being played out that were different from what you were taught, or similar? GU: I would say maybe a little bit similar to that. They definitely tried to guide the two genders a certain way at that time, but it wasn't super enforced. LR: Okay. So going along with that, what were you taught about sexuality growing up? GU: Not much, now that I think about it. I would definitely say my parents definitely tried to keep me a little bit sheltered from it. One example is Rocko's Modern Life. When that came on, there was a... LR: What is that? GU: It's a cartoon. LR: What is it called? GU: Rocko's Modern Life. LR: Rocko's? GU: Yeah. R-O-C-K-O. LR: All right, go ahead. Sorry. GU: There was an episode where two of the males, I don't remember the full episode, but basically, they were staging to get married together. My mom saw that and so I could no longer watch that show. I don't remember too much from that age, but I do remember little instances of that. I don't remember the fallout or what really led up to it. 4 LR: Did you ever ask questions like, “Why can't I watch this anymore?” Do you remember doing that? GU: No. Up until I was nine my mom was pretty single, so it was just her and I because she had majority custody of me until sixth grade. It was really just what she said, I just did. Not in a bad way. I guess I was just very, what's the word? Not submissive, but I was just very abiding by what she said. LR: What was your first exposure to queerness, other than that show? GU: I was going to say I think that was probably the first one, but I don't know. I would say probably middle school. I felt like I kind of had some thoughts that I didn't like girls, but I didn't really know what it meant. Going into middle school is seventh grade, so for sixth grade, they would have people come to the elementary school trying to get people started to clubs right when they start middle school. One of those was cheerleading. I was like, “Oh, that would just be fun.” Once I started the team, that's where “I'm kind of queer,” and stuff like that started to come into my vocabulary. I was called names, essentially, and that's how I got involved in queerness. LR: Okay. I'm going back to Rocko’s, do you remember how old you were? GU: I'd probably say between kindergarten and second grade. LR: During elementary school, do you remember a time when you just felt different? Or did that not happen until…? GU: I would say that probably didn't really happen until middle school. I do remember, which is weird, but I actually got detention in kindergarten because I ran trying to kiss all the girls. I don't know. I think I was just really affectionate as a kid and so I just didn't know what was different. But I would say probably seventh grade is when I started questioning all of that. LR: Sticking with elementary school for a minute, is there a favorite memory besides the 5 tetherball that you recall during elementary that you want to talk about? GU: Music class. Music class was just always fun. There's still shows that she introduced us to, introduced music that I still watch to this day just because it was such a good memory. I don't really have very many memories from kindergarten in general, but a lot surrounding tetherball and music class and my fifth grade teacher. LR: Okay, what were some of those shows? GU: One of the main ones that I remember is Peter and the Wolf. A lot of people don't know about it. It's kind of awesome. It's narrated, and every character is associated with a musical instrument. LR: That's really cool, I like that. So let's move into middle school. Where did you go to middle school? GU: Illahe. LR: Can you spell that? GU: Yeah, I-L-L-A-H-E. It's a Native American tribe. That was all of our middle schools, like there was Lakota, and I don't even remember the other ones, but those were the main two. LR: You talked about joining cheer and that's where your first real exposure to queerness came. I'm trying too hard to make this question fit into that, and it's not working. GU: Do you want to just straight ask it? You can. LR: Well, the question is, what were some of the outside factors that helped you process and discover your identity? You've already mentioned that cheer was one of those. Was there any other factors outside of your home? GU: I don't think so. Looking back, you can kind of sift through it and you're like, “There was definitely something there, but not anything significant.” Sometimes you're just attracted to certain people and you don't know why, and then looking back, you're like, 6 “Oh, it's because I probably thought they were cute or something.” But I would say, being a naive kid in general, it's not until seventh grade with cheer when I really started to be like, “Hey, maybe I do like guys and I don't like girls. But how do I process that when people are being so negative about it?” LR: You mentioned that you were called names and things like that. Did that stifle your curiosity in any way? I’m not asking that question well. GU: I would say yes. I wasn't called the F-slur, but I was definitely called something close to it. It definitely was like, “Okay, well, still try to date women and do whatever,” which I did, but it would be a month-long relationship with a girl from a different city that was like my cousin's friend. I think that people could tell that I was unsure of things and trying to push me towards being straight, but not in a malicious way. LR: Okay, other than cheer, was there any other part of middle school that stands out to you? Good or bad. GU: Yeah. Middle school was when I broke my wrist the second time and my shoulder and elbow at the same time. Both at the end of the year, both seventh and eighth grade. So those are kind of significant memories. LR: How did you do that? GU: The second time I broke my wrist was in eighth grade, and that was like a roller blading day inside the gym. I tried to do a turn and my feet caught up, same place as I did back in fourth grade. Then my shoulder and elbow, it was Easter weekend. To this day, I still think I saw something in the woods following me on my ATV. I turned to look around and I went up a tree and fell back. LR: So that's the end of your eighth-grade year? GU: Yeah. LR: Were you able to still do cheer? 7 GU: Not once that happened, but that was Easter, so April. I did cheer from September to April, and that was just kind of the end-of-the-year stuff where we didn't really have much to do anyways. LR: Did that prevent you from doing cheer in high school? GU: I decided not to because of my experience with middle school. LR: When you say that, because of your experience…? GU: Just the negative name-calling, and I was still always slightly heavier. Going into high school, going to a new school where you're at the bottom, I just didn't feel comfortable, I guess. LR: Out of curiosity, was the negative from within the cheer group or outside? GU: No, it was outside. Everyone on the team was actually pretty nice. The first year, I was the only male, and the second year, there was another male. SL: Did he get the same type of name-calling? GU: You know, I actually don't know. I know he was definitely more popular than I was, but I don't actually know. LR: You would have been ten… I just remembered I've been asking this question to everyone. So what are some of your memories surrounding 9/11? GU: That's a good question. Again, that was definitely a time that I don't have too many memories. But I do remember because I would have been fifth grade, wouldn't it? I do remember us talking about it vaguely, and I remember seeing it on the TV and stuff like that. But that's all that I really have from it. LR: Okay, all right, it's been a while since I've done this, so I apologize. GU: You're totally fine. LR: I’m looking at these questions and realizing I haven't gone in order. Did religion play a part in your life growing up? 8 GU: Yeah, more on my mom than my dad. We would go to church probably every Sunday, but I didn't feel like it was too strict. There was definitely a time where I actually enjoyed going, but as I grew up, especially once I hit high school and started going to a youth group and stuff like that on Wednesdays, that's when I slowly realized. I was like, “Something's up, either with me or my views or my faith.” Ever since I was 18, I haven't been back. I've been to a church for funerals, but not ever for a service. LR: What religion? GU: Christianity. Yeah, I guess non-dom... LR: Non-denominational? GU: Yes. LR: So did you find—and if this is too personal, just let me know. But were you finding that the teachings or beliefs of what you were being taught weren’t fitting with how you felt, or what was it about it? GU: A little bit. I'll come back to that specifically. But during youth group, I felt like there were certain things expected of me, and I guess I just wasn't grasping it in a way. The experience I can talk about is during one youth group, they started speaking in tongues, and I didn't know how to do that or what was expected of me. I just remember someone started to pray with me, and they were speaking in tongues, and I didn't know what to do, so I was just kind of mimicking her, and I felt like she was giving me a weird look. Just things like that over the course of years. I didn't like it. Then there was another church I was a part of with my stepmom and my dad. I used to do skits with the youth group for the younger kids on Sundays to teach to the young ones. There was a conversation with my mom about me being gay. I was still in the closet, so I told her, like, “No, it's not true,” because she had found some stuff on the computer, as you do when you're 17, 18 years old. She actually called the church 9 because she knew which church I was going to, and she told me that they don't support the LGBT. I think that was my last straw. I was like, “I'm good. As long as I'm a good person, whatever happens, I can justify it to myself if there is a maker.” That's kind of how I've lived my life. Granted, I'm not perfect, but I try to be my best. LR: Is there any other experience or memory of junior high that you want to talk about before we move on? GU: I don't think so, no. LR: Let's go to high school. Where did you go to high school? GU: Decatur High School. LR: That sounds familiar. GU: There is a Decatur, Georgia, so that might be it. LR: Yeah, that's probably it. This is still in Renton? GU: Federal Way. Middle school and high school were both in Federal Way. LR: Okay. So you're not doing cheer anymore. Are you doing musical theater? GU: I did it my freshman year, but from sophomore to senior, I was in fall plays and spring musicals. I was also on the swim team for all four years as well. LR: All right. You've talked about how a lot of people thought, and when I say a lot of people, I’m putting my own words... GU: It was definitely more obvious to people than I thought for sure. LR: Was this more in high school than in any other time? GU: No, from what I can tell from parents and relatives, they definitely thought early on, that I could be. LR: Yeah. So what was your experience like in high school, trying to live your… how do I ask this? You’re not ready to come to terms with yourself. I am not asking this well. GU: It's okay. 10 SL: Did you feel like you had to hide who you really were in high school in order to survive? ‘Cause we all know high school sucks. GU: Yes, definitely, my freshman year. I changed districts between my freshman and sophomore year. Freshman year was with the people from Illahe High Middle School, and that was at Todd Beamer High School. But then I went to Decatur for the last three and that's where I graduated from. Once I went to that school, it definitely felt easier. It wasn't as clique-y. There were still cliques, obviously, like the theater kids and the popular kids and the band geeks, but they were all more melded into each other. I didn’t feel as pressured to be someone, even in the theater department. I still hid who I was, just because there was still that stigma about it. LR: Was there a moment in high school where it just became like, “This is who I am,” where it was more obvious to you? GU: Yeah, I would probably say spring break of my senior year. LR: Can you talk about that? GU: I fooled around with a friend of mine, and I was like, “Yeah, I like this.” But again, still didn't come to anyone until after high school. LR: As you're going through this, trying to understand yourself a little bit—you've kind of already answered this, but I'm just going to ask it. Did you ever really feel like you had anyone you could talk to, that you could relate to, like a mentor or anything? GU: Kind of, but in a secret way, because I wasn't out. There were people that were out in the theater. I would really listen to them and just kind of talk to them and see like, “Hey, that aligns with how I feel, but I'm not willing to share,” type of a thing. He graduated my junior year; he was a year older than me. Sophomore, junior year kind of made me feel comfortable as I heard him talk about his experiences and stuff like that. In a way, I think he probably progressed my coming out, even though it was still after high 11 school. LR: I know I keep asking this, but is there a memory or a moment in high school that just stands out that you'd like to talk about? GU: I would probably say my junior year. We went to New York for the Festival of Gold. It's a choir competition. The previous year we qualified for it, and this year we were performing. One of the nights, I would say probably about ten of us sneaked out of our rooms and all joined in one room, and we could just freely talk about ourselves and stuff like that. He was just being super vulnerable at that moment. I think it made us closer. We won the competition and got to perform at the Kennedy Center on stage for everyone. That was a huge moment in high school. LR: That's pretty cool. So going to New York, having grown up in… I don't even know how big of a town Renton is. GU: I would say it's definitely bigger than Ogden. LR: Okay, what was it like going to New York, even though you were only there for not very long? GU: Oh, I was in heaven. I'd been to Seattle so much, and granted, New York's significantly bigger than Seattle, but it already kind of had that big-city feel. I was like, “Oh, I can move here.” I was so happy. LR: Okay. So you really like the big city atmosphere. Was there something specific about it? GU: How busy it was, because as far as I can remember, I've always been such a night owl. Finish up at like 8:00 at night or even ten and just see, everyone's still out and about doing things and things being open and stuff like that. It felt like home because I found other people that were up at the same time, and they weren't dressed just normally either. They were expressing who they were, bright lights and everything. 12 LR: So you were seeing people being more authentic to themselves. How did that help you, as you came back from that, just seeing others express themselves? GU: I think it helped. I don't think I consciously knew that, but just seeing people making their art and people wanting to buy it and people dancing on the street, when I don't think I would ever do that. Seeing people live their truths, I think, definitely helped me accept myself a little bit more, even if consciously, I didn't think that. I think internally, subconsciously, it helped. LR: When you were finally able to come out, was it after you graduated from high school or before? GU: The first time I came out to someone was at my family reunion. It was my third cousin and he had been openly out for at least a year. Funny enough, the reunion was Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I told him Saturday night, and we were like an hour and a half south of Seattle, camping. I told him. He's like, “We're going to go out and have some fun then.” So we got into this car, drove all the way to Seattle with almost no one knowing, going to a club, coming back at like 4:00 in the morning, and going to bed. I woke up 2 hours later because people were starting to pack up. Up in Seattle, there's certain bars where the basement will be 18 and older and the other levels will be 21 and over. They have a bouncer at the stairs so that 21 and older can come down, but we can't go up. That was probably one of my favorite nights just because I got a crash course of an aspect of being queer. LR: I'm just curious about that crash course. Did that help you be able to then come out to your parents, or did that still take some time? GU: It definitely took some time. As I've already explained, my mom already had an idea. She had already seen some stuff and had already asked me, and it wasn't until the following summer that I came out to her. 13 LR: Did you feel the need to come out to your parents, or was it just something that happened organically? GU: Oh, no. Neither one was really organic. Both of them were kind of… not traumatizing, but definitely a little bit more abrasive than just a normal sit-down. But I don't want to go too far in the future, if you still have questions leading up to it. LR: I really don't, unless you have something else you want to talk about. GU: Oh, no. I just didn't know what other questions. LR: Feel free to elaborate if you're comfortable doing so. GU: Yeah. My first relationship was a year later when I was 19. Only lasted a month. He lived 45 minutes up north, and I was still kind of a kid, you're 19, so we didn't really get to see each other. I was over on the East Coast again to visit family, and we broke it off just because we didn't see each other, so there wasn't really any connection. We broke up, so I noted that I was single on my Facebook. Then my mom called me because she's nosy. It's one of the things we have in common. She just pressured me and she's like, “Who did you break up with?” I was like, “Oh, you know, just that person I was seeing.” She kept on pushing and pushing it, and then she finally asked me, “Is it this guy?” I was like, “Yes.” I don't think I would have came out to her if she wouldn't have pushed it so hard. I think deep down, she really just wanted me to just be myself. That one was a little bit less abrasive than my father. I was in Rhode Island for about two weeks. When I got back, she had told everybody in my family without confirming that I wanted everyone to know. I go back and forth whether or not I'm actually pissed about it, because at one point, everyone kind of knew and it wasn't really a shock to anybody, but also, you didn't even ask if it was okay. That really pissed me off, but honestly, I'm kind of glad I didn't have to do it. 14 I haven't done it with my dad's side. They're the ones I don't get along with, more than my mom's side. I'm like, “I just don't even care at this point. I'm 31, you're not in my life now. If you're going to not like me just because of that, then I'm not missing much.” LR: So is that how your dad found out then, through your mom? GU: No. So my dad found out probably a year or two later. I was living with them at the time and we were all together, just not in a good place. It was definitely a part of my life where I just really didn't know what I wanted, so I was just kind of coasting in life. We were just getting in these little snippet fights and stuff like that, and I guess it kind of got to a boiling point with my stepmom. Basically, they were like, “We got to kick you out. You have a month to move out before our relationship is over.” I wasn't expecting that because I was just like, “Oh, it's just a little tiff, whatever.” So I dropped out of their world for like six days, did not contact them. That exploded even more because I wouldn't even talk to them. “You're telling me if I don't move out in a month, then our relationship is over. What do you expect?” Reconciling with that, I came out to them and I was like, “This is where I'm at. I've been out for a couple of years to these other people.” It was a little bit more traumatizing just because of the other things around it, but at the time they seemed to accept it and be okay with it. That was right before my 21st birthday. Right after my 21st birthday, my mom and dad had a conversation, and that was the first, “Oh he's just in a phase,” comment. To this day, my dad and stepmom still don't really ask questions about relationships or who I'm dating. My mom's like, “You dating anyone?” She's definitely way more engaged, gives me her parent opinion whether I want it or not. My mom's totally accepting, even though there's parts of it she doesn't like, but in a parent form, like how I'm meeting them or stuff like that. But not the fact that it's a guy and not a girl. 15 LR: Was there in an active queer community where you were growing up that you felt like you could engage with? GU: Yeah, so I joined a few Facebook groups and slowly I got intermingled with them. There was one point, for about six or eight months, I was on a gay bowling league as a sub and then I got actually into a team. That was a lot of fun, and I still have a lot of friends from that as well. That was kind of my introduction to any kind of queer group. LR: How did that interaction with them help you? GU: It definitely made me feel more comfortable. At that point, I'd been out completely for a couple of years, so I was already starting to feel a little bit more comfortable in my own skin. That kind of just solidified it and made me go out more and made me see more of how our community was. They just kind of honed in that I was where I was supposed to be. LR: Did you ever think about going to college or furthering your education? GU: Yeah. When I was 19, I moved with my mom for about six months to central Washington, and I did a semester there. Then I moved back to my dad's and was going to start going to community college there, and then I just dropped it just because life got busy. So there was definitely a will, but I just didn't follow through until I started five years ago. LR: So what brought you to Utah? GU: A job. I was a temporary-to-permanent shipper and receiver for Boeing. I was there for about ten months and didn't like it. I didn't like the people. They were miserable, and it showed every single day. I was like, “I don't want to be surrounded by this,” so I started looking. I was looking at old jobs back in Seattle and contacting old managers and sub-managers. I was like, "Hey, I'm thinking about moving back. Do you have anything where I can just slide right into it?” I pretty much had everything lined 16 up. A friend that I had made here was like, "Hey, apply to ARUP Laboratories, the really good company. I work for them. Good benefits.” “Well, I'll apply. If nothing happens with it, then I'm already planning on moving home.” But I got the job and I was like, “Well, that does seem like a good job, so I'll give it a year. If I don't like it, I can still plan on moving back.” I was there for little over three years, and that's when I started going to school for science. Basically, I've stayed in Utah so I can finish my degree. LR: You said you started at Salt Lake Community College. GU: Yeah. LR: That's where you lived first, in Salt Lake? GU: So when I first moved here, I lived back up here in Clinton because that's where my parents lived. But my first apartment with that new job was in Salt Lake City. LR: Okay, so your parents moved to Utah first? GU: Yeah, they moved about a year and a half before me. LR: Okay, that makes more sense. You're talking about moving ‘home’ like home is in Washington. I was a little confused. GU: Sorry. LR: So they moved to Clinton for a job? GU: Yeah. My dad got a transfer job with Boeing. He's been at Boeing for 11 years, I think. He was the one that told me about the temporary-to-permanent job with Boeing, and so I interviewed with people that he knew, and that's how that job started. LR: Okay, now that makes more sense. How was the queer community different in Salt Lake or in Davis County than in Washington? GU: It's not as prevalent, I feel. It really is night and day. It was a big culture shock, moving here. As you guys know, everything's dictated by the Mormon religion. There's very 17 little church and state, and that shows when everything's closed on Sundays. It just affects the queer community in so many different ways, even the Pride parades. You can tell the difference just by how big the locations are. LR: Can you elaborate on that? GU: I feel like there is a big queer community, but not everyone is willing to participate because of the fear of what might happen. Washington's a liberal state, and even though there are still Republicans and there are still anti-LGBTQ people, I feel like people feel more safe, so they're willing to participate. They're willing to go, they're willing to engage in some way, even in the smaller cities like Tacoma or Olympia. LR: Were you able to find spaces in Clinton or in Salt Lake where you felt like you could interact and be a part of a queer community? GU: I would say so. I definitely haven't been involved as much as I was in Washington. I also put to the fact that most of the time I've been here, I've also been in school, so part of that is also because I've been very busy with my time in Salt Lake and Utah in general. But I would say definitely in the more downtown areas of Ogden or Salt Lake, those are more open areas and areas that can be more expressive. LR: All right. When did you start at Weber? GU: Fall of 2020. LR: Okay. What was that like? GU: It was terrible. I was not mentally sound in fall 2020. LR: Okay. Is that because of… GU: The pandemic! Right when I started the fall, I had gotten fired from a job. We were in the heaviest part, I would say, of the pandemic. Mindfully, I probably should have taken the fall off, but I was like, “I just want to finish,” so I was trying to push through. Looking back, I definitely should have taken that semester off to focus on other things. 18 LR: So when COVID first started, were you still living in Clinton? GU: I was living in West Haven by myself. LR: Okay. What was that experience like for you? The pandemic beginning in general. GU: It was really bad. I'm a huge extrovert, so to go from going into work every day and seeing everybody to being completely isolated, it definitely did not make me feel good. I definitely had a few panic attacks, and the first day of the actual lockdown was when that earthquake happened, so that didn't help either. I remember a couple of months in, my birthday’s at the end of May, I had to get my first COVID test because I was having problems breathing and I have asthma. They were like, “Let's just get you a COVID test, just to make sure it's not that.” I completely broke down, because that was when we really didn't know anything. The test was really up your nose, and I just had so much panic about it. I started breaking down, called my stepmom to take me to it. Yeah, it was rough. LR: So when you started, that wasn't in person, Fall 2020? GU: No, that was online. LR: Okay. Do you think it would have been more helpful if you had been in person? GU: Oh, yeah. 100%. LR: So it’s because you were online. GU: Even if it was masks and being in person, kind of like how spring ‘21 was, I think I would have done significantly better. LR: Were you able to go in the spring of 2021? GU: Yeah. I haven't taken a semester off since fall of 2017 until now, because I'm done. LR: Wow, okay. Is there any other story or memory you want to share before we wrap things up? GU: I guess there’s one story that I don't know why I want to tell it, but I do. It was one of 19 the two times I've been called the F-slur. LR: Okay. GU: It was me and my cousin and his and his friend at the time. During this time, we'd kind of been hanging out a lot together, doing various things, whether it was the gym or just going to do something or just hanging out at one of our houses, we were all hanging out. One thing that's big between those two is calling shotgun in the car. It's a huge thing, which is why this happened. The friend had called shotgun and got inside the car, and my cousin was upset because he thinks that since he’s my cousin, he should automatically get shotgun. That was the whole thing. But the friend forgot something in his car, and so he had to leave the car, and so my cousin was like, “Oh, shotgun,” because you left, apparently there was something about it. He got so upset that he just bumped up the music and just sat in his car. I'm like, “I'm so tired of this, like can we just go?” We were going to play pool and bowling in a place that's like 25 minutes away. He rolled down the window and he's like, “No, I called shotgun, let me get shotgun.” Trying to lighten the mood, ‘cause he seemed like he was getting upset, I was like, “Come on, princess, let's go. You can have it on the way back or something like that.” He was like, “Don't call me a princess, you [hits the table to emphasize and censor the f-slur].” I was like, “That was super uncalled for.” I don't think I've ever been so pissed in my life at that point. I told my cousin to get in and we drove off and we didn't talk the whole time except to give me directions. That is one thing I would not tolerate at that point. That was a rule I made for myself. 20 SL: Living in Utah, have you had experiences with bullying, being out? Even just being out in the community and having people… Or name calls? GU: Not necessarily bullying. I never had any name calling. I've definitely felt unsafe, but I've never thankfully been name-called or anything like that, because I think that would probably bump up my anxiety. I'm always a person that scans the room or scans my area, even if I'm with friends or a big group. You just never know. You hear things that happen all the time, and if I can be the only person that scans, then maybe that will save someone if something, God forbid, happens. I guess that's something I take after my father for, because whenever we go to restaurants, he always faces the door into the restaurant. LR: Okay. So when you say ‘feeling unsafe,’ is it just because of the way other people react, or is it just a feeling that you have? GU: Some of it's feelings, some of it is people's demeanors when I'm around them. It could be absolutely nothing, but I have to realize where I am, who the majority of people are in this state. It just puts me on a more high alert than, say, if I was back home. LR: Okay. So there's a difference then. When you're in Washington, it's different than here. GU: I would feel that way, yeah. LR: So that actually leads into one of the final questions: how is living out in Northern Utah different from other places that you've lived? GU: I would say mostly I'm just more on my guard. When I'm driving, you see the people with the flags, and in 2022, that means something somewhat specific. So if I see that, I'll go a different route or try to avoid as much as I can, because I don't want to be put in any type of situation. Even if that means to be quiet and avert myself, I will. My body feels like it's more aware of my surroundings. I don't get to relax as much when I'm outside. 21 LR: What do you think the communities that you've lived in—not the queer community, but just the community itself—could do to create more safe spaces for LGBTQ members? GU: I'm not sure. I feel like that's kind of a loaded question that has a million answers. I guess more showing of acceptance. You might know that your inner circle, despite how they look, are all accepting, but someone who's new to the group or someone who's coming in despite how they look, they may not know that. I don't know how to answer that further. I don't know, because a lot of things are visual. Like I said, when you see the flags behind a truck, that is a symbol. Regardless if it's just the American flag, it's a symbol. I think as humans, we're very visual, and if we can at least show that it can be a safe place, then I think a lot of people would be more relaxed. LR: [To Sarah] Do you have any other questions? SL: Do you have a gay icon? GU: That is a very good question. I don't even think about that. The answer is yes, but… SL: Or more than one? GU: More than one, absolutely. The first one that comes to my mind is Lady Gaga, of course, but I'm trying to think of another one. She's right on the tip of my tongue, but I can't place it. I do also like Billy Eichner. I think he's kind of a little underrated and I think he can do good things for us. I guess I'll go with those two for now, because I can't I can't put my finger on it, but there's someone oddly specific. What about you? SL: What about me? GU: Yeah. SL: I have so many. Marsha P. Johnson is one of mine. GU: Oh, yes. SL: RuPaul, I mean, who doesn't love RuPaul. I also have a special place in my heart for Eureka O’Hara, just because I’ve met her and we are her Utah family. 22 LR: Oh wow. I know who that is now, and that's pretty cool. GU: Okay. If we're going drag queens, I definitely love Jinkx Monsoon because she's from Seattle. I do also love Trixie Mattel because that's kind of my personality—very sassy, but funny and warm-hearted. Her and Katya, I watch their compilations all the time. SL: Yeah. And then, for me, one you would know is Kate Kendall, she's a local woman. She was one of the lawyers for the Prop VIII and same-sex marriage case. She was from Utah, from Ogden, born and raised. GU: Wow. SL: I call her Mama Kate because I've known her forever. It's nice that there’s more representation, queers in media. GU: Yeah, they're starting to finally ramp it up a little bit and I'm excited. Also Billy Porter, the cast of ‘Pose’. There is a trans actress from ‘Sense8’. She is also going to be the new Pinhead. Not Pinhead, it's a horror, but the character does have pins in their head. SL: Hellraiser. GU: Hellraiser. Yeah, she's gonna be the new Hellraiser, and it looks good. LR: Final question, unless you have anything else you'd like to add? GU: I don't think so. LR: If you were in a room and could talk to your younger self or the younger LGBTQ community, what advice would you give them? GU: Honestly, I would say, “Fuck them. Accept yourself sooner. It's worth it.” That's what I'd say. LR: That's really cool. GU: Yeah. If I had any regrets, that's what it would be, was coming out in high school instead of after. LR: Well, thank you so much for your willingness. Thank you for what you shared. 23