Oral History Program Forrest Crawford Interviewed by Cordon Gifford 13 April 1987 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Forrest Crawford Interviewed by Cordon Gifford 13 April 1987 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Crawford, Forrest, an oral history by Cordon GIfford, 13 April 1987, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Forrest Crawford. The interview was conducted on April 13, 1987, by Cordon Gifford, in Crawford’s office. Crawford discusses his involvement in BSU (Black Scholars United) and where it is headed in the future. CG: This is Cordon Gifford and I am interviewing Forrest Crawford in his office on April 13, 1987. Forrest Crawford was the advisor to the Black Scholars United BSU from 19771987. We are here now to talk with Mr. Crawford about the changes he has seen in the Black Scholars United since his involvement with it as president since 1972. He returned to Weber State College in 1977 and took over the advisor-ship at that time. He was interviewed in 1979 by John Sillito. The first question I would like to ask is concerning the direction of the Black Scholars United. You stated in the previous interview that it went from a black power, sort of militancy in its conception in 1969, to more of a black awareness in 1979 when you had that interview. Where do you think it is now? FC: Well I think, as you mentioned, that originally BSU started out as part of the manifestations of some of the black power movement. That is, it was basically an act of this organization from 1968 to roughly 1971 or 1972. From that point, from 1972 to 1975, it began to change its focus related to awareness. So you have an activist group of individuals, in an activist environment, dealing with activist issues, to an awareness type of group dealing with awareness type issues. As the advisor since 1977 one of the things I have noticed that the organization is doing now is that it has taken on more of an integration movement. In other words, what they are trying to do is they are going 1 through a process of cultural mainstreaming or at least attempting to mainstream within the American society, particularly within the education arena. The reason I am saying that this whole mainstreaming affect is taking place is because the same issues are not as sensitive, or prevalent, or strong now as it was for example in 1968 and the early 1970’s. The organization now has become more issues oriented. In other words, it is difficult to find coalescing among a specific concept unless there is some kind of a movement toward an issue. Take for example, prejudice will always be a given concept that minorities, and in particular blacks, have to grapple with in any kind of a social system. That will always be there. But what we find is that we don’t have a significant number of people coalescing on the concept of prejudice, because it is not universally defined in the same way it was defined in the 1960’s. In the 1960’s there was more of a brother and a sisterhood that existed among the blacks to fight prejudice and bigotry. But now you find more individual as opposed to collective efforts to deal with bigotry and prejudice. What has taken place is you find individuals, the way they are able to fight prejudice, is to infiltrate a specific system as an individual in order to induce a change as opposed to collectively going in and making mass statements about their desire for a certain ideal or a policy for a system to change. So when I say an integrationist standpoint is probably more prevailing now than before is that people try and induce change based on the level in which they have occupationally aspired to make that change as opposed to any kind of a collective effort. It is very common for an individual in an executive position to try and induce a change of racism from their standpoint as opposed to getting together a group of thirty, forty, fifty, sixty blacks to induce that same kind of change. So it is more of an integrationist change that is attempting to take place 2 as opposed to a collective effort. Some of those collective efforts are still happening, but certainly not to the same extent as it was in the ‘60’s and early 1970’s. CG: Well you have opened up a lot of different issues into that one. Did the BSU or the Black Awareness movement at that time really help to bring about that type of integration on Weber State Campus? For example, are blacks more of an active group of students in terms of policy making than they were before, maybe not as a whole, but as individuals? FC: Yes, as individuals. For example, in the late 1960’s, early 1970’s, and even into the middle 1970’s you tended not to have so many blacks involved in for example, the student government process, the political process. Now what you find particularly since 1975, 1976, we are finding an increased number of blacks involved in the student government process. It is very common now for blacks to run for student government senate positions. The highest office that has been held by a black student at Weber State I think was in 1975-1976 as a Vice President of Student Services or Vice President of the Student Government. In other words, this individual was an assistant. Duane Carrington was the assistant to the president, was the Vice for the President of the student body. That is the highest office that was held by an individual, a black student. CG: Is that a very important role? Critics of student government claim that they are without much real policy making authority. FC: Blacks in those positions? CG: Just students, the student government itself. FC: Yes. 3 CG: That is not a real viable policy making position, as if there were more black administrators or black faculty members. FC: I think it is more of a two way sword that someone moving toward an active position in student government has to deal with. On one hand they have to convince the populous that they are the most viable candidate, but on the other hand they have to also deal with the concept of race and how the general student body perceives them as a credible person. It just so happened, for example, in 1975 or 1976 that Mr. Duane Carrington possessed a lot of characteristics that were appealing to not only black in other minority streams, but also white students who believed that his bid for a Vice President’s position for the student body was credible. I think that the interpretation changes with each student body population who are in power as it relates to student government. For example, when I was involved in the student government process, the student governments had a difficult time acknowledging minority populations as being a viable and integral part to the student government process. One of the efforts taking place was our desire to segregate ourselves. Sort of a superlative movement existed among the minority leaders to say, “Well, if you don’t acknowledge us as part of an integral part of the student government process, then we will coalesce and develop our own system of government.” On the bottom line we were still part of the student government process, we just in effect had a dual system. CG: So you do think the BSU, as an organization, has helped change the perception about blacks by the administration? FC: There is no doubt about it. I will tell you how they have been able to help change that image. As I mentioned before, one, you have an increase participation of blacks in the 4 student government process. Black students since the inception of the student government leadership conference ideal have always been active parts of the student government leadership institutes. In the past, black students were not invited to leadership institutes. They have a high visibility in participation in that process. I think another way they have been able to affect change is through the array of cultural awareness programs instituted since their formation as an organization. The Martin Luther King Memorial, for example, is a very integral part of Weber State College Black Scholars United program. No other organization on campus has a Martin Luther King Memorial other than Black Scholars United. People look to Black Scholars United to have the program. The institution as a whole, the administrators at Weber State do not even have a separate program from the students program because they have been able to look at BSU to host the Martin Luther King Memorial. So in that way the perception has changed. I think in another way it has changed is black students have been social and academic achievers at Weber State. It is very, very common, for example, to find black students on the President’s as well as the Dean’s lists of scholarship recipients whether it is in sports, music, or in some specific academic area, black students have been visible academic achievers at Weber State—so there have been some ways where the organization in and of itself has affected and impacted the image and perception of the organization as a whole. CG: So racism has gone down? FC: Well, I think the interesting thing about that is that I think racism, the conscious and deliberate racism, has decreased. But the complexity of how to deal with corporate racism has increased. In other words, racism still exists but the complexity of it has 5 changed. It has become much more subtle and sophisticated now. But in the same breath, those black students who are dealing with the racist ideology, have also become complex in terms of how we deal with that. CG: Can you illustrate that a little bit more? FC: Yes. The perfect illustration is the whole integrationist’s idea that they have taken on. What they have attempted to do is on a rather collective basis, they have individually infiltrated specific systems such as a student government systems and the scholarship system. They have individually infiltrated those systems and demonstrated their own credentials and credibility in order to affect that kind of change. Now that is a slow way to do it. But nevertheless because of the complexity of racism that exists, not only at Weber State but other systems, other predominate white systems, blacks and other minorities have had to become more sophisticated in how to deal with an adverse system that is more covert now. CG: How does this covert racism raise its ugly head? How do you identify it as racism if it is so covert? FC: Well you identify racism by—you have to become, what I would consider, a systems analyst. In other words, you have to be able to understand a social system in which you are operating, in order to understand how racism operates. For example, the simple concept, I wouldn’t call it simple but the concept of reverse discrimination is a perfect example of covert racism. We no longer, for example, depend on how liberal or how conservative you want to identify equal opportunity and affirmative action, that we no longer all of a sudden say we don’t care whether a black is less qualified, we will stick him in the position. Now we are saying, the covert racist system is saying, it is unfair to 6 stick a black in a position that they are less qualified for if there is a white person that is more qualified. What they are doing now is employing what they call reverse discrimination, which basically means that we have to decide on the best candidate based on the credentials at hand, eliminating the whole ideal of a race. In other words, reverse discrimination does not even take into account the numerical differences that exist between the numbers of whites who have an opportunity for a given position as opposed to the number of blacks. That reverse discrimination often times is solely based on a white person’s versus a black person’s qualifications without ignoring the concept of historical as well as numerical differences. So it is easy for a white person to have the same qualifications as a black. What they would do, then, is place that white person in a position saying that just because this person is black doesn’t necessarily mean that we need to place them in that same position. What they had done then is by sheer numbers have given white a better opportunity than a black person who may have the same qualifications. Reverse discrimination, for example, warped numerically in that way. There are other ways that it warps, but the numerical differences are one of the ways in which it operates on a covert basis. Ideology, for example—if a system has an ideological racist combination, that ideology may not necessarily be overt as it was in the 1930’s, 1940’s, 1950’s, and early 1960’s. That it could be a covert ideology. For example, Weber State says our philosophy, our mission statement, is to treat every student on an equal opportunity basis, that we have an open admissions policy. But then in the same breath, what they do is institute an admissions process. For example, that eliminates disadvantaged individuals, white and black. For example, there was a lot of controversy about the math competency concept as related to what kind of impact the 7 math competency policy would have on the admissions of disadvantaged individuals. That is considered covert institutional racism. CG: That is a good example. How many blacks are now students at Weber State College? FC: We have got about a hundred—roughly about a hundred and seventy-five. Incidentally that number, at least proportionately, is significantly higher than Utah State as well as the University of Utah, which both have strong graduate programs and they are also university status. CG: On a percent basis has increased greater than— FC: Yes. In fact, in 1977-1978 I think they had two hundred and twenty-five black students attending Weber State College. Now that number has decreased just like other numbers in general of student populations have decreased, but the point I am trying to make is that the University of Utah has never had two hundred and twenty-five black people, undergraduate or graduate, in their institution. CG: Of the current one hundred and seventy-five, how many were recruited by the athletic people and how many were recruited by the BSU and how many just wandered in? I want to bring up the point, are blacks—some, being stereotyped as athletes? FC: It is hard to stay as to what extent stereotyping exists there. For example, Weber State has such an array of student composition that it is difficult what athletes were brought in on stereotypic notions or not. Weber State has roughly, I’d say among the black student population about thirty-five to forty percent of the black students that attend Weber State are athletes. I would say that another thirty-five to forty percent of students are indigenous to this area. In other words, they graduate out of the local high schools and 8 select Weber State College as a school to attend. Then I would say that the remaining of that percentile are students who are attracted to this area for other reasons, for example, the military connection or transfer students who may or may not be athletes. So I would say, in terms of the number of indigenous students who live in the area and the number of athletes, they probably constitute the largest number of students who make up that composition. CG: Okay. About the administrations perception of blacks—how about the blacks perceptions of whites? For example, the Mormon influence around here is very strong. Sometime ago the Mormon Church decided to allow blacks into the priesthood. Did that significantly change the black perception of the local area? FC: I don’t think so. One of the things that I noticed, for example, particularly as it related to the priesthood and revelation, is that for a period of two or three years after that revelation we noticed a pattern of Mormonism existing among the black student populations. In other words, the black Mormons were actually becoming more visible among the student organization. I think the priesthood revelation, in effect, was a relief for them because they had been receiving so much pressure about being Mormons. So it was something that they didn’t debate or talk with anyone about. I think after that revelation had taken place, there was sort of a psychological relief that existed among black Mormons during that time. Not only as it relates to the concept of, well, it was about time, but just their ability to openly talk more about their Mormonism as blacks. In terms of the image and whether their image significantly—the image of the revelation and the whole environment changed the local blacks attitude around here, about Utah in general and the church in particular, it was not a significant change of attitude. 9 CG: Do Blacks see Mormons as being racist either overtly or covertly? FC: I think in a general sense they do, right. But also, I think that, for example, particularly among older blacks is that they see the Mormonism as just another system that chose to, whatever extent, subjugate blacks. You know, decide, to what extent, blacks should be aspiring within that social system or at least that religious system. So many blacks, local blacks particularly, the NAACP, for example, they believe that the Mormon system was really no different from any other system that they had been combatting all alone. It is just sad that it has to be a religious system that they were combatting against. So the attitude did not significantly change because of the priesthood revelation. CG: Getting back to the BSU, what do you see as being the major or some major drawbacks to the BSU organization, some faults or liabilities? FC: I would say one of the main faults, was that first of all the organization as a whole has a difficult time establishing a degree of consistency within the organization. Now when I say consistency I’m saying that every year, year in and year out, you have personalities that have different ideals, different philosophies and they bring in their ideals and philosophies and what that does it disrupt any prevailing philosophy of foundation that was already established the year before. The point I am trying to make is that when I say inconsistent, I’m saying you have officers year in and year out that change, not in any drastic way, but always change the complexity and direction of the organization. BSU is a volunteer organization so you have people going in and out on a volunteer basis. You have no core of foundation among the student composition. The characteristics of students that are associated with BSU are pretty consistent. In terms of this maintaining a degree of strong foundation, it varies from year to year. There are 10 some years that the organization is extremely strong and visible. There are other years that it is moderately strong to very weak and even invisible. From one year to another it just varies. Oftentimes it rests upon the leadership of the advisor to foster involvement. For the most part, it relies on the BSU president from year to year. You may have a strong leader that is highly visible, highly articulate, and highly program oriented. Another year you may have an individual that is sort of moderate to relatively invisible about how the organization ought to be running. I would consider that as one of the drawbacks of the organization. CG: Do you feel that the BSU identity has an impact on the strength of the organization? Do the issues that come along socially impact it, not just the personalities involved, but are there outside external forces that call people to rise? Give us three specific situations. FC: I think it is sort of a half and half—on one hand BSU’s identity has naturally emerged as a result of the historical relationship to the campus as an institution. BSU has always been here. It is hard to say whether it will always be here, but it has certainly been here as an integral part of the historical development of the college campus. So by historical design, the organization’s identity has emerged over a certain period of time. I would have a hard time believing that BSU’s identity is the same as it was in 1968. The identity has grappled and it has grown since that time. On the other hand, I would have to say that BSU’s identity has also been a manifestation of certain issues. CG: I wanted to ask you about that. FC: Just for a quick example, let’s take an issue as it relates to sickle cell anemia. CG: Okay. 11 FC: BSU will often times take its image away from local or domesticated issues to a national and even international configuration. In other words, there have been conscientious individuals in the organization, throughout the organizations history, that have been able to keep abreast of national and international issues that the organization ought to be aligned and consistent with. This is incidentally very characteristic of campus based organizations. Not only do they have to deal with internal domesticated issues as an organization, for example, racism in classrooms, but they also have to deal with international issues or national issues. The sickle cell anemia problem—blacks in predominately white institutions as it relates to the dropout rate and some of those kinds of things. Issues—national issues have definitely been a formation of the organization’s identity as well as local or domesticated internal issues have been a part of that. CG: Did BSU sponsor or co-sponsor that demonstration that was held here on campus against the apartheid system in South Africa? There was a guest speaker here on campus. FC: Yes. They were a part, co-sponsors with other groups that co-sponsored that act too. You take the apartheid issue—BSU has been a part of a rally and some efforts there. You take the issue as it relates to the rise and emergence of white supremacist groups, the issues sponsored an off campus candlelight vigil that the community at large participated in. The organization has a genuine conscious as it relates to national as well as local issues. CG: You said BSU tends to change with its leadership, who is president of the BSU? Is BSU a good trading ground for black leaders? There has been a lot of controversy over the 12 lack of good, strong, black leadership—other than Jessie Jackson, there doesn’t seem to be another black person emerging from society. FC: Yes. As far as training ground, there is no doubt about it. The issue is a good training ground for individuals that are interested in government processes because these are the things students find when they go through the BSU experience. First of all, they see that working among each other and working with each other that they, on one hand, feel a great deal of unity and sensitivity to each other. But on the other hand, they also experience a great deal of fragmentation—it is very common for an individual to come into the organization and feel like just because you are black, you should universally feel mutual about a certain issue. In particular among contemporary BSU members that is not the case. I find it fascinating as it relates to what types of people are attracted to BSU as an organization. The point I am trying to make is that that may or may not mean somebody will emerge out of the organization as a strong black community leader or even in the capacity to the extent that Jessie Jackson has emerged. Maybe on a smaller scale, something like that can take place, but I doubt very seriously that is always the intent and agenda of a given individual involved in BSU to rise from the ranks of BSU as an organization to national and international prominence. I think they tend to look at it more of a local basis and say, “What can I do as a leader to contribute to the organization and its impact on this campus?” CG: We all know the strong need for local leadership is just as important as for national leadership. As another question, is there a big difference in the type of student coming into Weber State now, a difference between 1972 or 1979? What is the big major difference? 13 FC: The big difference is, at least in my perception, age. I think the geographic location of students is pretty much the same. I think the perception of needs is fairly similar as in the past. I think that probably the big difference is age. In 1972, for example, the student age composition that existed among the black students tended to pretty much mimic the age composition of Weber State College students in general. One of the things I have noticed over the years is that you have much, much older students. Since 1975 or 1977, you have older students being involved in the black student process of student government. Now there are some problems with that. The problem is that if you have a young student, nineteen or twenty years old, that is interested in BSU and then you have a twenty-five year old student that is involved in organizations, you have, in effect, a generation difference that exists among those two divisions. The twenty-five year old will tend to bring more of a broader, more stabilizing effect of the desire of the organization to progress than the younger student who will tend to be more idealistic about what ought to take place. They may not necessarily have the same experience and practical implementation firework as the older student. The trade off, then, is that the younger students tend to have more time to do what needs to be done, as opposed to the older students who can simply bring in the wisdom based ideals, but they may not have the actual time to implement that ideal. The problem exists, then, that if I have returned as a twenty-eight year old student who is interested in BSU, providing my wisdom to the organization to a twenty-one year old who happens to be the president of the organization, that twenty-one year old may not have the same ideal in mind in terms of how we ought to proceed. My perception may be very different from that twenty-one year old. In that way, the student composition has changed over the years. 14 CG: Primarily age. FC: Yes, age would be in my perception the primary factor. The other thing I failed to mention, that I have noticed also particularly in the last eight to ten years, is that the females, the women, have tended to be more dominant in the organization as opposed to the early 1970’s. In the early 1970’s, most of the primary officers were all men. Since 1977, the primary officers are women. CG: Would you contribute that to the higher increase of women going back into higher education as a whole? FC: I think that is part of it. I think there are more female black students than there are male black students at Weber State. I think that women are solely more assertive and aggressive in terms of taking on leadership roles in the organization. It was very common, for example, on a consistent basis to have a man as a BSU President, from 1968 to probably 1975-1976. The primary officers and always in particular the president has always been a man. Now I can’t recall right off the top who would be considered the first woman president of BSU, but that phenomena has drastically changed in the last eight to ten years. CG: Speaking of black women, are they subjected to more oppressive types of systems than just black males, being a women and black, are they catching a racist and a sexist problem here on campus? FC: I think in some ways they are. I think particularly as it relates to the numerical difference between the black males and females that exist on the campus. One of the biggest problems that I have noticed is the interracial dating that exists among black college 15 students. That black men, for example, tend to date on a more consistent basis white women than black women. That is left up to interpretation. It is difficult to say, I think that if you look at the sheer numerical differences, for every one black female there are twenty-five white females. I think in terms of the sheer numerical differences, the law of averages might suggest that it is likely a black male will end up with a white female. That is not to say, of course, that white or black females do not date white males, but it is that kind of visible numerical difference. So the point I am trying to make here is that black women in some kind of a subtle way may be in a racially, as well as a sexist, pattern of discrimination. Black men’s’ prevailing perception of the executive office of BSU is that the male ought to be the president of our organization. The vice-president and the secretaries and the treasurers and those kinds of individuals ought to be female. Of course, that has changed as I mentioned in the last ten years but you take the officers today, for example, our secretary of treasury is probably one of the strongest black men on campus in terms of academics and social involvement. The secretary treasurer is a male. The president of the organization, in fact, the last two presidents of the organization have been female in the last couple of years. Before then it was a black male and before then I think there were two black females that were presidents of our organization. So the point I am trying to make is that black men are slowly, in the organization, recognizing that black females have just as much talent and charisma to lead the organization as historically black men have had. CG: What do you see as being some of the primary issues on campus now? FC: As it relates to BSU? CG: Relation to BSU, blacks as a student population. 16 FC: I think one of the primary issues is this whole concept of centralizing vs. decentralizing. In other words, do we become a part of or do we separate the systems? I speak of that as it relates to the minority cultural center issues. Some blacks believe, for example, that Weber State College is such a racist institution that what we need to do is to develop our own system. In other words, we need to segregate or decentralize ourselves from the primary system and create, in effect, a subsystem of Weber State as an institution. Of course, there are others that believe we have been on this campus long enough, that we need to be considered an integral part of the systems so we need to centralize our efforts. We need to, in effect, integrate our impact and visibility on the campus. So I think one issue is centralization vs. decentralization as an issue. I think another issue has to do with the extent, and sort of a spin off from the centralization issue, is to what extent BSU should maintain its affiliation with the student government as a whole. As of now, Weber State College BSU is an affiliate of the ASWSC, the Associated Students of Weber State College. One of the controversies that always came up is, “Is student government serving our needs as a total system?” Some students believe yes and others believe no. I think another issue has to do with our retention rates. To what extent black students are able to maintain themselves on this college campus? They believe, on one hand, that there should be enough support systems that will help blacks maintain themselves in college. On the other hand, they believe that the racist system is designed to ultimately affect drop-out rates. In other words, students are dropping out because the system is not primarily designed to meet minorities and black students in particular’s needs. The whole retention concept is a primary issue. 17 CG: What is the long range goal of the BSU? FC: I think the long range goal of the organization is to probably achieve a national chartered membership of a nationally well-established organization. For example, BSU on the local basis—that charter is only affiliated with the student government. They do not necessarily have a national charter that they are under the auspices of. I think the long range goal of our organization is to become a nationally affiliated chartered organization. For example, to a charter, they are a membership with the National Association for Advancement of Colored People or charter themselves as affiliate members of a National Black fraternity or a National Masonic Order or something of this nature. I think the long range goal is to become a local based organization to a national chartered organization. CG: There have been several BSU advisors before you. What do you attribute your long tenure to? FC: My long tenure has probably more to do with my awareness and sensitivity to the organization as a whole. I came up through the ranks of the Black Scholars United as an organization. I know the strengths and the weaknesses of the organization as a system existed on this college campus. I think when you become familiar with the system it is likely that you share your talents in order to maintain the credibility of the group. I think that has something to do with it. I think, of course, another thing that contributes to the fact that I have been their advisor for ten years is because I have had a lot of help from other black administrators on the campus who have a lot of history with the organization even before I began my tenure as the advisor. I think being able to 18 understand them, being able to experience the system myself has given me the necessary tools in order to maintain myself as their advisor for a ten year period of time. CG: Has your ten year tenure been an asset or a liability? FC: It has been both. CG: Can you speak about that? FC: It has been an asset and a liability. I feel like I have been able to lend my insights and talents to the organization to help, if you will, stabilize the group. In other words, I think there are a lot of things, a lot of points that the organization could have ultimately not only failed but phased out as a former organization. Had it not been for some of my sensitivity and awareness of what they need to do to maintain their stature as a student group on campus that may have been lost? I think it has been a liability in that it is very, very difficult to stabilize an organization as the student composition and personalities change year in and year out. The liability comes in where every year you are not exactly sure what your leadership strip is going to be in that organization as an advisor. So next year, 1987 fall quarter or September, I am not exactly sure what my leadership potential and commitment is going to be among the officers. That changes from year to year. I think it is a liability because what happens is that it affects the consistency of the organization and its planning and programming process. It does not necessarily affect the foundation which has already been well established. CG: Okay, last couple of questions really concerns the campus environment. I don’t know if you can separate that from the issues involved in the campus environment but I guess 19 the campus environment now has a lot to do with perceptions of blacks now, which has probably changed in the last twenty years. FC: The campus environment—one of the things that is interesting about black students at Weber State is, I think I mentioned before, that they tend to be more issue oriented. Otherwise, they generally are apathetic on the campus as a whole. Maybe, apathetic is too harsh of a word. They tend to distance themselves from contemporary issues unless they have a direct impact on themselves. CG: Why? FC: I think that is not only a black problem, I think it is a student body problem. Because, for example, you take the issue of discrimination—that is an old, old issue that in theory you would think we should still be coalescent and making statements and at least partaking of political activities as it relates to alleviating discrimination. You don’t find black students or any other student population doing that on a consistent basis today as it was in the 1960’s. Discrimination has almost—I would hate to say that they have become complacent, but I think they have psychologically distanced themselves from the issue at hand which, in some ways, has slowed down the process. But then, in another way, I think what has happened is that these students have backed off, recognized that the 1960’s mentality of how to alleviate discrimination can’t work in the 1980’s. So what they have chosen to do then is to use the integrative model and combat discrimination on a very individualistic basis. In other words, trying to fight discrimination, what is structurally or ideologically based—is much more complex than going in and turning over somebody’s table and saying, “We want change here and we want change now!” That concept no longer works. So they have to regroup. So when I 20 say apathy, I am saying that the issue of discrimination does not touch the hearts of Black Americans in the same way that it touched Black Americans in 1968. That is why I say that they timidly become more issues oriented. If there was a conscious and deliberate act of overt racism at Weber State and someone that was of reasonable credibility at Weber State was injured by it, then they will rally around that concept and that individual. Otherwise, they will perceive discrimination as common place at Weber State College or in general. Black students are very conscious that discrimination exists at Weber State. They know it is here. But in terms of whether they want to do something about it is measured in terms of degrees. CG: Sounds like you are being more reactive than active. FC: No doubt about it. I would say reactive in the sense of reassessing to what extent their efforts will make an ultimate impact as opposed to being active in the 1960’s model, being active to consciously and deliberately alleviate the issue at hand. CG: Do you think this is a good direction for BSU or black students? FC: I think what we are finding is a resurgence of the 1960’s mentality slowly because we also find a resurgence of the policies that gave blacks the political social and economic gains. I think those policies are being dismantled now. On a social, political, and economic basis you see the same policies that helped blacks gain the 1960’s. {End of recording.} 21