Oral History Program Dr. Kathryn MacKay Interviewed by Holly Rawson 23 October 2006 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Dr. Kathryn MacKay Interviewed by Holly Rawson 23 October 2006 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: MacKay, Kathryn Dr., an oral history by Holly Rawson, 23 October 2006, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Dr. Kathryn MacKay. The interview was conducted on October 23, 2006, by Holly Rawson, in the location of the Social Science Building at Weber State University. Dr. MacKay discusses her knowledge of the Women’s Studies program at Weber State University, as well as her experiences in similar programs at other universities. HR: This is Holly King (Rawson) at Weber State in the social science building and its October 23, 2008, and I am interviewing Dr. MacKay and how do you spell your name? KM: My name is Kathryn: K-A-T-H-R-Y-N, MacKay: M-A-C-K-A-Y. HR: All right first question, how did or when did you first get interested in the topic of Women's studies? KM: Women's studies was actually developing as a new area of scholarship when I was a graduate student at the University of Utah, so that would be then the 70's and where I really got interested in it was my involvement in the international women's year conference in 1977. I was asked by Helen Peppernickles, who is a distinguished Utah historian, if I would join her as a historian in a section of the conference that was going to be held in Utah as was in states all across the country, on developing a history of women in the state. And so I went to the first meeting, I took notes, I went to the second meeting and since I had notes I spoke and eventually what happened is that I chaired the section even though I was not on the organizing committee but actually the woman who was our liaison didn't do very much so I did the work, that's a whole other story. You’re not asking me that question, you just asked me how I got interested in it. I will 1 say one other part of this that pertains to my involvement in developing women's studies at Weber State and that is, I was still a graduate student. As a consequence of the international women's conference and all of the controversy surrounding that conference and equal amendment and some other things I got involved in working with a group of both graduate students and faculty who developed women's studies program at the University of Utah. HR: So this isn't the first time you've helped develop it? KM: No. HR: So Weber State’s more like your second? KM: Yes, although in the case of Weber State I was much more. I was at the leadership of that whereas at the University of Utah I was part of a group of people who put it together but very involved and it was a fun thing to do. HR: So what year did you come to Weber? KM: So I came to Weber State in 88, 89. HR: Then how long was it before you got the women's studies or did you want the program immediately when you got here? KM: What happened was, is that I took over teaching the women's history coarse which had already been developed by Dr. Gene Sessions and an old college of mine from Graduate school Ron Holt headed the honors program so he actually invited me to teach a class, a women's focus class and I ended up teaching a feminist theory course and developing my own coarse in women's history and then this honors coarse. I thought, gosh why don't we just create women's studies and through some other 2 associations three of us came together to direct the process. That was Nancy Hanstead in political science and Barbra West in the English department, Barbra has since retired. Nancy is now the chair of the political science department. We worked well together, we enjoyed each other, we came from three different disciplines, and we, Nancy and I, well let me rethink that, all three of us had done our graduate work at the University of Utah. So we went through a very deliberate process of arguing to develop women's studies at Weber states as what is called an orphan minor, that is, it would be a minor but not attached to any department, so it is a standalone minor and we knew that we couldn't argue for a major. The major was at the University of Utah that's the lead state institution. We felt we could develop a minor, Utah state had already developed a minor, we did some consultation with them, I knew some of the women faculty at Utah State who were involved with that, people like Carol Conner in the history department and some others and we took advice from them to actually ask for a separate budget and some real support from the institution. It was quite a long process because you have to program though, you have got to eventually get approval through the faculty senate and then eventually through the state board of regents. So we held hearing on campus, it was a fun project. HR: It was fun, but how long did it take from start to finish, do you remember? KM: Oh it took the most part a year to put it together. HR: So it isn't something you do in a week obviously. KM: No. HR: So you spent, thousands to hundreds of hours. 3 KM: Oh I would say hundreds of hours; I wouldn't go as far as to say thousands. Because it turned out between the time that I was hired and the two or three years later that I started putting the program together there had been other women and male and I'm going to use this loaded term feminist faculty, that is people who thought women's studies was a good idea who joined in on agreeing to develop the core classes and agreed to argue within their own departments to develop other classes. In actually creating the program had to create a brand new curriculum. HR: So who were some of your other advocates for the program? KM: Well we could certainly look at the records but where you're going to find the strong advocates are going to be the persons who ended up teaching the courses. So, Judy Elsley, Sally Shigley from the English department were involved in developing some of the first feminist theory's courses. Sue Horly in botany, Wangeri Wa Nyatetu-Waigwa who was called "stone" then in languages was involved, Gloria Wurst in the zoology department. So one of the things that kind of tells you who was in the first core group is going to be who taught those courses, and we made a commitment that a feminist pedasogy meant a different kind of pegody then a standard lecture based class that we would team teach the course from different discipline and we would emphasize more of a collaboration in the learning process between faculty and students. That meant quite a commitment of peoples' time, because although we were allocated funds from the University they never covered all the costs of paying faculty to team teach a course. HR: Did you have anyone who was anti this program? KM: There were some folks who were uneasy about the program we had an advantage and you'll want to talk to them, there had been an effort a few years before to create a 4 women's studies program and that effort was made by Gene Sessions in the History department and Ron Holt in Anthropology then director of honors, their efforts did not succeed, and the person you should talk to in that regard would be Rosemary Conover, who was one of the few women faculty in this college, of social and behavioral sciences, she opposed their proposal, and you could talk to her and ask her why. You'll want to talk to Ron who's not here this year, but Gene Sessions is and talk to him about the women's studies program, so I want to acknowledge that there was an effort, it didn't go forward this then was the second effort and it was a much more supported process I think because there was this critical mass of new women faculty, who had, many of us had come in with Graduate experience in women's studies and we had support among administrators, particularly who had very strong support, from the Dean of Arts and Humanities Sherwin Howard he was at every discussion and every event, however, In Deans Council it decided to house women's studies not in his college but the college of Social and Behavioral sciences, part of that was because Nancy and I were in the college, part of that was that Dr. Sadler just had some money in his college to support it and again he would be someone you would want to interview and ask him about his willingness to support the women's studies program because it meant that he had to find office space in this building for the program and although the budget comes from the University he allocates the budget and so now, this is not to say that there weren't individual faculty who for one reason or another who opposed this, at the faculty senate meeting the person who was most visible in his opposition was Dean Collingwood no longer here who was in the psychology department and he very symbolically brought to the faculty senate his young daughter, and she was probably about 11 or 12 sat in the 5 front of the faculty senate and very deliberately so he can vote against the women's studies program. Now in some ways I'm personally glad he's no longer part of this faculty for a variety of reasons. It's too bad you can't interview him because it would be interesting to see what he had to say. HR: What were his reasons for that? KM: Part of that was that he was a person. And who knows, who knows I think part of that was… HR: His personality? KM: I think so, I don't think had any particular axe to grind. HR: So he liked to say no when everyone else was saying yes, did he ever give you a reason for that? KM: No. HR: You never knew why? KM: And it, quite honestly Holly, it didn't matter because we had enough support, the proposal had been talked about on campus, students had petitioned, we had students actively promoting this we had other faculty developing classes, it was going to happen. It was pretty clear that there was finally enough support throughout the University, and Barbra and Nancy and I always argued in terms of scholarship. That was our basis for the argument that Weber State had become a University and women's studies was part of a university curriculum throughout the entire country that this was, we needed to offer this scholarship this perspective to our students it was part of our being a University, a credible University, and I think that was the right argument to make and it was certainly 6 a powerful argument to make it's hard you know we were trying to say we offer physics, we offer geography we should offer women's studies, and that was the argument we were making. HR: So at that point, and that was my next question, it was becoming a common program at other Universities across the nation? KM: Oh yes. HR: So everyone else was offering it basically, is that it? What about the other schools in Utah besides the University of Utah? KM: The University of Utah certainly took the lead but Utah State and Weber State, two other four year universities there was some effort to develop some classes at Salt Lake Community and develop classes at SUU and elsewhere. Holly you're going to have to do the research on this because I don't know if any kind of women's studies or gender studies program has been developed since Weber State developed its program in other four years schools certainly within in particular disciplines in many history departments across the state there's a women's history course in many Sociology and Anthropology classes there are gender courses, there are courses in gender, in many philosophy and political departments there are courses in feminist studies, in English departments there's feminist theories, so women's studies and gender as a category of study has affected most disciplines so even if they don't have a program of study in any given department there will be class offerings that focus on women or on gender. HR: So why is it so important to have women's studies here Weber State? 7 KM: I would make the same argument, we're a university. This is a major field of scholarship it has been developing over the last thirty years, there are respected journals in women's studies, there are respected national organizations in women's studies. Now I will say people say there currently a move, and the University of Utah has done just this, to abandoned women's studies as the label and move to Gender studies, because there's also a developing scholarship in men's studies and issues of masculinity. There's been some discussion on this campus that we revamp the program and call it women and gender studies, and that we develop some classes in men's studies, of masculinities or, so I think the argument now is the same argument we made more than fifteen years ago and that was women's studies, gender studies is part of a credible offering at a University. HR: If I were to take a women's studies class, what kind of things would be covered in it? KM: The introductory course is designed to try and look at women's experiences internationally. It tends to look at a lot at what is the status of women currently, literacy health, tries to look at some of the expressions of women, women's writing et cetera. The feminist theories course is a course that is looking at feminist theory and I'm going to define feminist as questioning a gender privilege and you take a historical perspective. So John Stuart Mills for example in the 1800's, is arguing for equality between men and women, legally and socially and you look at de Beauvoir, for example the existentialist philosopher, who argues in her very famous text the second sex that in a male privileged society women are always the other, men cannot connect with women on a equal bases because their always set up as their inferior. In the research methodologies course you would focus on issues for women and do some research in 8 that area, but there are courses, so that's the core of the women's studies program, but there are courses in gender in the anthropology department in psychology, women's health you know just all kinds of courses that have come out of women's studies and gender studies. I've offered courses with a colleague of mine in men's studies again a big expanding field of scholarship, I've offered course with a friend of mine in gay lesbian studies, so the scholarship is just really rich. HR: There's a lot to take in. KM: Yeah, there's just a lot there and part of Weber state's credibility we say we're a four year comprehensive university these are courses that we should be offering. HR: So, kind of off the topic of women's studies, how do you think we are doing in terms of like equal rights with women right now? Do you think we still have a long ways to go in making like in jobs being equal with men and things like that? KM: I think that male privilege whether it's bi-social convention is still very much alive and well. I think we've dismantled a lot of legal privileges but the ambiguous phrase that everybody uses is "you guys," It's not you gals, you guys is assumed to include men and women, but you gals would never be assumed to include men and women, so our very language suggests that we still privilege males, we still assume that males are the norm and that everything else comes under that so we don't say you folks, that would include all of us, or my favorite phrase from the south is "you all," that's a much more inclusive phrase, but women use it to each other so I would say that the frequency I hear that phrase everywhere suggests that we still make assumptions that men are centered in our culture and our language much more. 9 HR: Along those lines, so do you think we're, do you think women are viewed as being more capable since the housewife days I guess? KM: I think housewifery demonstrates women's capabilities in enormous ways. HR: So you think that's a positive way to look at it? KM: I think because since the 19th century we have not valued housework in the market in the economy we've de-valued a lot of what women did in their households. I myself have had to rethink that and become much more conscious of my own prejudices against housewifery. I don't think that's the measure of our equality, we have created a society that is very toxic to women, we expect nine year old girls to dress up like whores, we expect women to be essentially sexually available anytime anyplace. I think we have created a society that's very toxic to women, the language of popular music is very negative towards women, even women themselves in entertainment, essentially turn themselves into sexually available beings, we, I think that so advertising, language, music, a lot of popular culture has a lot of pretty negative images and negative expressions and to point that out to people often times labels me as a prude or old fashioned. No I don't think so, I don't think so, I think it's far more, I want to use the word toxic again, that I'm not making this stuff up. Other people make this stuff up and it's a difficult atmosphere for young women to exist in and the expectations we have for women to turn themselves into sexual objects in some very strange ways that are increasingly mannequin like. These manikins, they don't have any hair, they don't have any wrinkles, they don't have any gray hair, they're as skinny as a rail. Whoa, whoa that's very toxic, that's very toxic. 10 HR: Given that women are accepting these roles and their letting themselves be put in these advertisements and things like that shouldn't we take should take some kind of responsibility? Blame it all on men that we might have a bad image don't we have to take some responsibility? KM: Oh absolutely! I think that power is not just maintained by force, it's also maintained by the accommodation that those in the power down position make so that for women to say, "Oh I love being a sexual object," suggests that they really have internalized, they've allowed themselves, they've allowed the society to have power over them, part of that is a lack of consciousness. I mean I'm enough of an existentialist to appreciate that consciousness, self-awareness is very hard to come by, it's much more easy to go along with, to be seduced to have other people make decisions and then to somehow say" Oh I made that decision, I decided for myself." So I certainly do acknowledge that some amount of amount of accommodation to this toxicity is by women themselves, but I think a lot of it is by women who are not conscious who are not thoughtful of that accommodation thoughtful about that accommodation that their not their very, that their not being very self-reflective about what that that means for them to accommodate to that. HR: And what it means for other women. KM: And what it means for other women Holly, that's exactly so, yeah. HR: So that goes to a whole other topic about how maybe they were raised and you're raised thinking that. 11 KM: And I think the culture, I think the cultures very toxic so, we could argue that women's studies is a counter to that toxicity, that women's studies is a place where at least some of the students at Weber State can talk about these issues can look at alternative ways of being female can consider their own accommodation to social norms. If we want to do it that way, I think that is again part of the value of having a, I'm going to make perhaps an extravagant parallel, but I don't think many people have historic perspective. I don't think many of our politicians do, I don't think many of our corporate leaders do, one of the things I think that is so valuable about a historic perspective is that is says, in the past that they can in no way predict the future than we can. That in the past there may have been another repertoire of ideas that were really good, but were abandoned, let's look at them again. That the present is not the inevitability out of the past that there was confusion and change then, to have a historical perspective is to both be more frightened I think and more comforted now. So why do we teach history? Because we are trying to help some portion of the society develop a historical perspective, were saying, "we need this, we need people who can take a look at today's issues, and say, let's look at it, let's approach it from the past, how did we get there? What were the issues? What were the consequences?" It's a different way of looking at it. It's the same we've argued okay we teach psychology at the University, because we want to develop in people a psychological perspective how they can understand what it means to be human through psychology or through philosophy. So at the university this place that we have remarkably created in our society, that we create this space that allows people to take time to read a book to reconsider themselves, to trying something and fail and get back up and try it again, as part of that women's studies it should exist, it has this place 12 for people to consider issues about gender and gender privilege and to develop a consciousness about that in the same way we hope our students develop a historical perspective or understanding of philosophy or greater appreciation and love of music or they have an experience going to the theatre that they wouldn't otherwise have. HR: So it’s all part of a bigger… KM: I think it is, I think it's part of becoming an educated person. HR: Well I've heard something like were, "You can't understand where you're going until you understand where you come from?" KM: I think that's right. HR: That's a correct statement? KM: So I think history, music, and women's studies is all part of becoming an educated person. HR: So I guess you could say that women's studies is a good counter to the negative image, so you have the opportunity to take a possible student who's been raised thinking they're just an object and once they get to women's studies their able to see that it is isn't true? KM: Yeah. HR: So it's a good counter to the toxicity we've been talking about? KM: That's right. HR: Going back to the program. KM: Sorry. 13 HR: No, I love this topic; I've enjoyed talking about it! KM: Great! HR: So we've kind of covered one of my questions but what has changed about it since it was officially here, what changed? Is it still at the level it was? KM: We've had more students, the introductory course became a gen-ed course, we have more people involved in the program both faculty and staff, it's never been a very large program but it exists. I think people know that it exists on the campus it offers, it cosponsors events and some other things, and again it may be going through now a transition, to consider gender studies as part of its preview, so thinks it continues to be a viable program, it continues to be supported by the University. HR: So would say it's grown a lot? KM: I think it's grown modestly. I don't think it's ever going to be a very large program but as one of many programs of study at the university I think it's very viable and I think I would use the word thriving. HR: Thriving? KM: It's thriving. HR: So you think it will be like you were talking about kind of changing a little more as the times change? KM: Yeah, I think as the field of study changes as the scholarship changes we respond to that. HR: So how long do you think this process of anticipated change is going to take? 14 KM: I have no idea. HR: You have no idea? KM: I'm not the person to talk to. HR: Who is the person to talk to? KM: The current director is Becky Johns, so you can talk to her about that. HR: So she would know, so it would be called women's and gender studies? And could open more topic of male what would it be called? KM: Men's studies might be something pursued as a whole category of gender that includes men and women. Maybe some more gay studies classes? We'll see. HR: Kind of opening it up so the students get that same education they can get anywhere. KM: And a new scholarship. HR: Yeah, because you want to be able to offer all the classes at Weber State that you offer anywhere. KM: Or at least some part of them, at least introduce students to the scholarship itself. HR: Have you become, I guess this is a broad question, have you become like, have you visited and seen other women's studies programs besides Utah and the University of Utah? KM: Yes, sure! I've been to the national women's studies conferences both to deliver papers and to attend, and those conferences are held every year and people like all like all scholarly conferences people give papers and present models, yeah so there's a network of women's studies faculty. 15 HR: Outside Utah is there any place where you feel like the program is really good? Where it stands out in any way? Is there a place? KM: I think that there are example of fine programs, I think, I'm not as involved in the national organization as I used to be. You could certainly take a look at their conferences and there is a website you could take a look and see what their up to, certainly women's studies, gender studies programs are going to be stronger at more major Universities. Universities like Rutkers for example that has a, has had a major women's studies program or University of California some other places that have had longer and more developed programs. HR: Do you think this is a bigger, you know I guess, west versus east coast do you think it's bigger in the west versus the east or pretty equal? KM: I don't know? HR: That might be an interesting topic to pursue? KM: Yeah, I don't think it's pertinent to your topic. HR: But basically it's the idea there's a program everywhere. KM: I would be surprised if there weren't some kind of women's studies programs at least one university in all of the states. It's because the scholarship is so rich, it's hard to avoid it if you're a professional scholar yourself. How do you avoid it? You can't, you just can't, it's just out there. HR: I have a lot to learn about this don't I? KM: Yes you do. 16 HR: Thank you. KM: Your sure welcome, you might ask me if I agree to allow you to use this for scholarly purposes. HR: Oh yes, can I use, how did you put that? KM: You may use this interview for scholarly purposes. HR: Thank you, I appreciate that. KM: You're very welcome. 17