Community Oral History David Smauldon Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 22 December 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Smauldon, David, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 22 December 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview December 22, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewee: David Smauldon Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with David Smauldon, conducted December 22, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, David shares his memories of working in the railyards at Ogden Union Station as a Brakeman/Switchman for the Union Pacific Railroad, and his years working as an engineer on Union Pacific freight trains (1990 - 2021). David also recalls growing up near Union Station and the way it impacted 25th Street and Ogden. AK: Today is December 22nd, 2023. I am at the Ogden Union Station interviewing David Smauldon for the Ogden Union Station Centennial Project. My name is Alyssa Kammerman and I’ll be conducting the interview. So, starting out I wanted to ask, what year you were born and where you were born? DS: I was born October 16th, 1954, here in Ogden, Utah. AK: All right. And where in Ogden where you born? DS: I was born in the old Saint Benedict’s Hospital located at 3000 Polk Avenue, east of Harrison Blvd. AK: So, you were saying that you lived behind the Union Station, is where you grew up? 1 of 44 DS: Yes. I was partially raised on West Patterson, right next to railroad tracks. As kids, we used to go hangout in the railroad yard. Probably should not have, climbing on trains and watching the trains go by. AK: That's so fun. So, what did your parents do for work? DS: My Father worked on Hill Air Force Base in a warehouse, retiring after 40 years of service. My Mother worked various places while being a housewife. She additionally worked for the University of Utah Extension Service, teaching people with low-income on how to prepare meals with items they had available. AK: What were your parents' names? DS: Lewis Richard and Tiny June Smauldon AK: So, you've said that growing up you remember kind of playing around the rail yards, watching the trains come through. What are some of your earliest memories of what Ogden was like in your childhood years? DS: Oh wow! I remember the trains used to go up and down Wall Avenue. There used to be railroad tracks in the middle of Wall and Lincoln Avenues. The train that is currently sitting outside Union Station was originally located in John Affleck Park on 32nd and Wall Avenue, which is now the Westland Ford Car and Truck Dealership. I remember going there to play on that train which was all Ogden had in that area. AK: That's interesting that there were trains throughout Ogden. Were they passenger service? DS: Well, there were freight trains; a lot of businesses here UP used to service them over in the railyard, which they called the “Icehouse” located by the river. This 2 of 44 was a place where you could get large blocks of hot ice and blocks of ice. The Icehouse is no longer there, it is just an old building. I remember us not having a elctric fridge and having to get ice to keep our food cold. We would see them going up and down the streets quite a bit, going to The Anderson Company Lumberyards, which was located just off 22nd Street. AK: Interesting. That is so fascinating because now it's just all cars and streets and everything. Like, I can't imagine that. DS: Oh, yes, it's changed quite a bit. AK: So, growing up, did you ever want to work for the railroad as a kid? DS: Oh yes, I always did since I was kid, wanting to work for them because I love trains. Every year I would get a train set. At first, I wanted to be an Engineer and that never changed, which led me to being one two years after starting there as a career. AK: That's so cool. You had mentioned to me that you met Betty when you were a kid, is that correct? DS: Yes, I have known Betty since she was around 16 years old. I did not know her well; however, my older brother dated her older sister. That is how we met. We have known each other for quite a while. We did not get married until 23 years ago. We took the scenic route to be together (laughing). AK: What schools did you go to growing up? DS: My first school I attended was Pingree Elementary located on the corner of 30th Street and Lincoln Avenue next to the New Zion Baptist Church. It’s no longer there it was torn down to build the Red Duck Store and strip plaza for local 3 of 44 businesses. Pingree looked like what I will just call a prison (laughs). It had a bell tower and the building looked rough. I then went to Lewis Elementary on East 28th Street above Washington Blvd. At that time, it was recently rebuilt due to a school fire. That building is still standing across from the Post Office which is now a skating rink. I then attended Washington Junior High School on 32nd and Washington Blvd. It was torn down as well and replaced with Odyssey School which has a space shuttle on the front of it. For high school, I attended Ogden High School on 2828 Harrison Blvd. AK: That's cool. So, you were mentioning that Pingree Elementary was kind of a rough building. Is that why you ended up moving to Lewis Elementary? DS: Well, no. The school was overcrowded, they had some of us, when I was in the fourth grade, go there just for one year. Lewis was a pretty new school, so they had us attend there to relieve some overcrowding of too many kids at Pingree. AK: So you just transferred over? DS: Yes, that’s about it. I will have to show you some pictures, which some you may have seen. AK: I'd love to see it, yeah, 'cause I think I remember – is that the elementary school that they were talking about razing a few years ago? And people were really sad about that. I'm trying to remember. DS: Oh no. Well, probably not that one. That school’s been gone for some years… Wow! That school is older than my oldest kid, at least 50 years, which is a long time ago. AK: Okay. I'm not sure what I was thinking of, then. 4 of 44 DS: Yes, it is gothic and weird. I am surprised they made buildings like that, kind of reminds you of an old castle, but more intense the way it looked. You look at pictures of it now, you would think you would need a private security and it was not an elegant looking school. AK: Were you scared to go? DS: No, no, I was not. That is what we were used to, you know, you see it every day. Just looking back at it now, you are thinking like, wow! Yes, it's kind of amazing. AK: How many siblings did you have? DS: There were ten of us, six boys and four girls. AK: Where did you fall into...? DS: I was right in the middle with four sisters and five older brothers. I always felt like I was in the middle. Not wanting to hang out with my sisters or my brothers and they did not want me to hang out with them, my older brothers that is. AK: So you're the youngest boy, then? DS: Yes. AK: And you mentioned going to school right next to New Zion's. Did you go to church there? DS: Yes, I joined New Zion's when me and Betty got married. So, we've been going there for about 20 years. But I grew up going to a Catholic church when we were younger and then we went to a Methodist Church. AK: And that was all in Ogden as well? DS: Yes, and both churches were. 5 of 44 AK: Okay, gotcha. So when I was interviewing Ms. Sarah McClellan, she mentioned in the ‘50s, noticing some segregation and such. Do you remember that as a kid? DS: Oh yeah, yeah! That is what they call redlining in between 32nd, Washington Blvd and Wall, all the way up to 21st Street. That’s where we grew up, for Black people, which was the only place they could live in that general neighborhood. So, that is what they called redline back then. You stayed in your neighborhood, don’t come over here above Washington Blvd, unless you are going to school. AK: So it was mainly the residential areas that were redlined? DS: Yes AK: Do you remember being told as a kid to stay in that area? DS: Yes. Well, yeah, I kind of knew, other than going to school, to not go East of Washington Blvd. You know, we kind of stayed West of Wall and Washington pretty much too. It was rare and as a kid you knew that was the way it was. AK: Your parents never talked to you about it? It was just life? DS: It was just that, you’re told “don’t go over there.” You know, I was never harassed about anything over there, but it was just that way. AK: So growing up, were you ever someone who would go hang out at the classic places like the Berthana or... I can't remember what other places they had in Ogden. DS: Yeah, we went there, the Berthana was where we used to go skating all the time and was a hangout for us. They built the Marshall White Community Center, so that was a substantial difference. But Berthana was our little skating hangout. AK: That's so cool. What other areas in Ogden were your main hangout places? 6 of 44 DS: Oh gosh. The Marshall White was really basically it. You know, other than being in school, playing basketball, hanging out in our junior high school. There was not a place really to hang out here in Ogden. When you were older, If you wanted to go to a club scene, that’s different, you know. Hanging out in a bar, other than that, that’s pretty much it. We were confined to a certain area, which made it sometimes difficult. AK: So what kind of things would you do at the Marshall White Center? DS: There was basketball, swimming, just little different things; boxing, which I didn’t box, and quite a few recreational things to do. There was a baseball team, you know for children at times. Just different kind of things to keep us busy and out of trouble with anybody. AK: Did you have a favorite activity to do down there? DS: I liked basketball. I wasn't the best at it, but I liked playing it. AK: That's super fun. Okay. I'm curious: You mentioned going to clubs. Were you ever down on 25th Street in those parts? DS: Yeah [both laugh]. There were several. There’s … I cannot think of the name of it, but there was one there located between Lincoln and Wall Avenue on the North side; we used to go there which was Black owned. Another one was on the corner called OP’s (Our Place) off 27th Street and Wall Avenue and one across the street called the American Legion Post #66, also known as the Mad House. The Mad House was a nickname people gave it because of all the actions of activities, long waits to get in. It could sometimes be just crazy, fun, good times, disputes with all kinds of folks, military, etc. Also gambling. A club 7 of 44 called the Back Street was between 26th and 27th Streets on the East side of Washington Blvd downstairs in the basement. A friend of ours and his wife owned it for years. Currently, there’s a restaurant there now. AK: That's so cool. So what are your memories of 25th Street from when you were young? I mean, I know you were born in the 50s… DS: Well, when I was younger, our parents used to go down there sometimes and sit in the car and watch people! You know, it was kind of interesting, but that was our entertainment; go to what we “call up” town “Two Bit” or get some ice cream from Farr’s or just go to the park. That’s pretty much it. AK: That's fun. Sounds like they had an ice cream parlor down there that you would go to? DS: Well, it was Farr’s Ice Cream. We used to go there, get ice cream, go over to 25th Street, sit and watch people. Other than that, I would hangout down there at the clubs. AK: So I've been told that 25th Street experienced some urban decay after the passenger service stopped. Like restaurants, bars, businesses down there started declining and there wasn't as much to do on 25th Street. Did you notice that too? DS: Yes, I did. Yeah. A lot of the clubs started closing, some of those were restaurants. You know, one of them still has a dragon outside the front of it. However, I can’t think of the name. AK: Star Noodle? 8 of 44 DS: Yeah, yeah, the Star Noodle. That closed and there used to be one on 28th that’s not on 25th Street but on Washington Blvd, it’s called the China Night which had a big Buddha or some guy sitting up there with his hands out, you know. Belly hanging out, a Chinese type of statue out there. We used to go there when we had a school dance, take our dates there, and eat dinner. AK: So that was kind of the nicer restaurant? DS: Yeah, yeah. AK: That's cool. Just out of curiosity, do you remember which bars and restaurants stayed around on 25th Street? DS: Kokomos, and that’s never going nowhere [laughs], it's still there. The City Club; that’s still there. There should be one right there on the corner which used to be a pizza place which a few businesses are west of Kokomos. It was called Poncho’s when I was growing up. Now, all but Kokomos are gone. It has changed quite a bit. AK: It is amazing that Kokomo is still around. It's an old place. DS: Yeah. AK: So tell me about how you started working for the railroad. About what time in your life was that? DS: I was 35 years old and was between jobs. I worked at Hill Field as an aircraft sheet metal mechanic which I got furloughed from there and worked at the Freeport Center as a forklift operator for Pro-Form, where they would make exercise equipment at that time. They wanted us to move to Logan, I didn’t want to move to Logan, it was too far. My Father-in-Law at the time, was a veterans’ 9 of 44 representative at the Ogden Job Service, so I asked him about who was hiring. He said, “well, the railroad’s hiring and Kimberly Clark.” I applied and interviewed for both places back in 1990 and the railroad hired me that same day in May 1990. I stayed there until I retired. AK: Which job did you interview for? DS: I was a brakeman/switchman. I became an engineer two years after I started working there and went into engine service. AK: That's awesome. So tell me about what your job looked like as a brakeman/switchman. What was your day-to-day like? DS: Oh, I started switching cars and moving around trains. You know, when a train comes into town, we’d separate them from different cars and some will then go to Pocatello, Elko or to other local businesses. We had local crews that would take them to wherever they needed to go. That was it, switching and separating them, and making sure they went to their next destination. AK: Interesting. Okay. So did you ever have to travel with the trains at all? Or were you mainly in the railyards here? DS: I traveled a lot most of my career. I spent a lot of time in Pocatello; Elko, Nevada; Green River, Wyoming; and Milford, Utah. But I didn't have to move. Well, I'll take that back. They forced me up to Napa, Idaho. I was up there for two years. Yeah, I had to work from Napa to La Grande, Oregon as an engineer. That's back in '94. AK: Forced you up there? It sounds like you didn't enjoy it [laughs]. 10 of 44 DS: Yes, I had no choice, but I enjoyed it once I got up there. I didn’t want to come back, but they made me. AK: You wanted to stay up there? DS: Yeah. After I got there, I realized that Boise is not a bad little town, and Napa is just north about ten miles, so, yeah. AK: So, as a brakeman/switchman, were you mainly working here in the Ogden railyards, or would you still travel with the train as a brakeman as well? DS: I traveled as a brakeman. Mainly to Pocatello. AK: So I don't know as much about the switchman job. Would you tell me more about what that entailed? DS: Oh yeah. Well switchman, I mean like I said, we just worked locally in the yards. A switchman just basically worked in the yard a lot. A brakeman worked with the engineer. Back then, they had two brakemen: a conductor and two brakemen. There were two people in the cabooses before they got this new technology called an EOT End of Train device. But yes, we pretty much did most of the work. A conductor would give (instructions) to the engineer, we were at the rear end on the caboose, we got out, to line switches and line the cars out and send them to Cache Valley or Pocatello. Once we got to Pocatello or Green River, we’d stay overnight until we were called for another train we needed to bring back. The process was repeated all over again. AK: Interesting. Okay, so I feel bad because I'm pretty ignorant on the job. So when you say switching cars around, would you literally unhook it and then… 11 of 44 DS: Oh, yes, yes, I apologize. That's pretty much it. A switchman would line the switch to a track, then another switchman would pull the pin to send the box car into the track. Once it clears the track, you would line the next switch from which they told you for the next car, then repeat the process until completed. AK: Okay, that's good to know. And I've heard in the early days, I don't know if this was your time, but a lot of brakemen would have to walk along the top of the car to get to different cars and pull the brakes and stop the train. Is that what you did? DS: I didn’t have to do that. I’ve seen cars that had brakes on top of cars and the brakeman would have to walk on top of the cars. It wasn’t very safe, and their careers were cut short. That’s a lot of bouncing around to be walking on top of boxcars, hard to keep your balance. Hopefully nobody ever fell off there. AK: Yeah, that'd be terrifying. Okay, so in the ‘90s they had kind of like electrical brakes, then? Is that how they would do it? DS: No, there were air brakes on all the cars. They started using electrical brakes on engines as time went by. I don’t think that came until the 2000s when they started moving towards electrical brakes on engines. Air came from the head engine to the back of cars and was controlled by the modern technology satellite called Distributed Power Units (DPU). Sometimes when full air wasn’t there, you’d press buttons on the screen to tell the train in the middle to set more air. I have had trains that were 15,000 feet long, which are exceptionally long and heavy. With the recent technology, they started alleviating brakeman jobs only needing just a conductor and engineer. 12 of 44 AK: So why wouldn't they need the brakemen anymore? DS: Well, the reason, I don’t quite understand. However, it’s related to cost with the new technology being computerized and the trains can be controlled by the engineer. After the conductor is dropped off by the driver because the trains can be really long, He can walk back and forth, climb on the trains, pull the necessary pins on cars and tie the brakes to make sure they are secure. I don’t miss all the fun parts of doing that, so I became an engineer [laughs]. AK: Okay, so tell me about becoming an engineer. How did that come about and everything? DS: Well, you know. I hired out when I was 35 years old. I was thinking, “I don’t want to be 65 years old doing all this walking along the trains while going up the mountains in snow up to my knees. It became scary on the unbalanced ground with the ballast rocks they put along the tracks.” After experiencing that I went into engine service in 1992, attending various training, operating and rule classes for about six months in Salt Lake Community College. We also, as a part of the training, would ride with another engineer going to Elko or Green River to learn the route, the territory, and how to control the train going up and down hills and mountains. The train can go fast going down the mountains, which is kind of scary. I don’t know what the process of training is now. AK: Fascinating. Okay. So tell me more about what you learned in that training class. DS: Sure. They taught us how to use the train air, to understand the operating skills and rules, which was vitally important. The rules were called the “G-Core Rules”. We had to know the difference meanings of the signals; red light signifies stop, 13 of 44 but a flashing red warning was different. Much like what you would see driving on the roads, stop, caution, look and then proceed because something could be out there on another track in front of you. AK: Super fascinating. Okay, so I'm intrigued now thinking about driving a train up a hill, and then going down a hill. So were you taught just how much speed to get up the hill and then how to put on the brakes down the hill? How did that all work? DS: So going up the hill, you won’t use train air; but when you come down the hill you get the feel of the train pushing in the back. From that and knowing how long the train is, you get an idea of what the train is doing you set your counter. Once the train is halfway through coming down on the descending end, you would set initial air. If the train starts picking up speed, you will then use your dynamic brakes, if that’s not enough air, you will set a little more air. Usually following that process, it should work. If not, and it starts to stall out, you can pull the train down or if you have DPU you can push it down. Once the train goes up and over the hill on level terrain, then you can start to release your air. AK: Do you have an engineer up front and an engineer in the back? DS: No. We controlled everything up front. We had three computer screens: one for the air, one essentially was a map to tell you what the terrain looked like, and the third was to show electrical, oil levels, and power. AK: Wow. Okay. So with the single track, would you have to figure out how to coordinate with the other trains so you don’t crash into each other? 14 of 44 DS: Yes. That’s when dispatch comes in. They will have you go to a siding and will tell you to let an eastbound train pass. A lot of those sidings west of Ogden were 10,000 feet long. Sometimes if you didn’t fit in the siding then you would have to pull up to the main track and wait for the eastbound to pull into the siding because it was able to fit. AK: Do you know why it was track warrant controlled? DS: Yes, because it was a single track, Dark Territory and you can’t just go out there for safety reasons. It’s called Centralized Tract Control (CTC) which you use as your signal; if it’s a green signal, then you can go without permission from dispatch (who controls the signals). Being a single track and DT, you better not just go because a train could be out there on the track. CTC will show you it’s a yellow light and that someone could be there. Sometimes it shows you what is called a “dark signal”, which you’re not sure. That’s why it's important to talk to the dispatcher first to get the “go ahead”. It could potentially be a train out there and you’ll have to get out of the way by pulling in the siding. AK: Interesting. And you said dark signals. What was that? DS: Well they are signals that don’t do nothing and those are the ones that you must get a track warrant for. They are there and they work but are not controlled by anything, like the dispatcher. AK: Okay, gotcha. So they just weren't working, basically? DS: Yes, they work, but we can’t control them. There’s something there, but the occupier that lets you know something is out there, or possibly maintenance away is out working and/or repairing the tracks or a box car on the track. You 15 of 44 just don’t know. However, he can’t say, “ok, I’ll give you a flashing yellow, you can go out there.” You must talk to him, and he talks to it to make sure it’s safe to proceed. AK: Scary. Did you ever encounter that on the tracks? DS: Yes, I hit a semi-truck in Logan years ago. He wasn’t paying attention I guess [laughs]. It was by the golf course, and he was coming around a curve, I’m looking and said, “Wow, this guy doesn’t look like he’s going to stop!” He kept going as we were crossing through by the golf course, and again I say, “still looks like he’s not going to stop to my conductor. Well, he’s not stopping.” So, I put the train into emergency, and I just laid on the floor, because I didn’t know what was inside of the truck and I didn’t want whatever it was to hit us thru the windshield. The conductor and brakeman saw what I was doing, and asked, “what am I doing down there on the floor?” They looked up and seen the semi-truck, so they piled on the floor with me. AK: Did you end up crashing into it then? DS: Yeah, we hit just the trailer. It was empty, thank goodness. And the guy was all right. You know, he was sitting outside of the Cab of the truck... By the time we got stopped and ran back there, he looked like he was in shock, you know? But the cab he was in was tipped over on the telephone pole at the crossing. Just blew the trailer up. Thank goodness, like I said, it was empty and he was okay. AK: That's terrifying. DS: Oh yeah it was! He said, “I didn’t see you.” I said, “Oh definitely not!” But I am just glad he was alright. It scared me, really terrifying. 16 of 44 AK: Yeah. Because how long does it take for a train to stop? DS: It depends. They don't stop on a dime. So I'm doing probably about 40 miles an hour when I went into emergency, but I don't know about how fast I was going. At the time I might have been going 35 mph, I guess. AK: I imagine, with all that weight behind you, it takes a while. DS: Yeah. That force behind you just keeps pushing you and pushing you till you come to a stop. And so, I think it took us... like 500 to 1000 feet, probably about a quarter of a block. AK: That's faster than I thought it would be. DS: Yes. It is. But not as fast when you look at it [laughs]. When going faster, it takes longer, which makes sense because of the force behind it. That was the only time I hit somebody, thank goodness and everyone was alright. It was a close one. AK: How long were your trains that you would drive, typically? DS: How long are the trains, or just that one? AK: Just in general, how long were your trains typically? Like how many cars, and such? DS: Oh gosh. It could be1500 to 2000 feet, which is a lot. They could go up to 18,000 to 20,000 tons and as I previously stated, as much as 15,000 feet long. Especially since they started using DPU which made them longer. You could control everything better with more power to move the train. I don’t know if you ever noticed when you’re going to Salt Lake, there’s a train engine in the middle 17 of 44 of a long train and stuff in the rear, that’s what the DPU is and is used on trains going to Green River. I don’t know like going west of Ogden, however, going to Green River, everything is computerized. But once the program is set to go, it’ll run on its own, put in 8th throttle, it’s going up the hill, you can sit back, and the train runs itself. The only thing you must do when necessary is blow the horn to make sure nothing goes wrong. It scared me the first time, because you’re going with gravity, and it comes to a 30-mile an hour curve and you’re doing 70-miles an hour and the computer satellite takes you down to 30-miles an hour around the curve zone. You sit there with arms folded and the system takes over everything. Oh yes, it’s come a long way. Since retiring, I don’t know what the process is now. Probably, better. However, it was discussed to go with just an engineer only on the trains, which is not good. But that’s the new age now. AK: That would be hard because that's a lot to pay attention to, so. DS: You know, you’re just there sitting and talking to yourself for twelve hours. It’s hard sometimes, when something happens and you’re thinking, “ok, well let me go do it.” Here in the local yard, they have what is called “remote controls” boxes, and nobody’s on the engine but it is controlled with remotes. They use it to switch out that way now. This is getting rid of engineers for the most part. AK: Interesting. Okay, so remind me, what is the difference in roles between the engineer and the conductor? DS: The engineer will run the engine and the conductor handles all the paperwork, talks to the dispatcher most of the time. He goes out and does the switching, watches the train if it needs to be inspected. That’s pretty much it. During the 18 of 44 wintertime, the engineer has a good job, because he doesn’t have to go out in six feet of snow walking up and down the train tracks, you know. He sits and waits for the conductor to come back inside later, maybe an hour or two. AK: And that's what the brakeman would do? DS: Conductor and brakeman, yes. Every now and then they'll call a brakeman, just not too often. I guess it depends how much work they have in between here and Green River, say, for instance, if they have a lot of work, if they must stop in Morgan. If they have some switching to do, they might send a brakeman. So then once you get to Green River, if they don't need him no more, they'll send him back in the van and just the conductor will come back and the engineer. AK: That's interesting. So how long were your shifts typically? DS: Well, the Federal Railroad Administration started a federal rest period because they had a lot of accidents. So, you must have 12 hours of undisturbed rest after 12 hours of working, regardless of where you’re at, you have to stop, but beforehand, we'd be out at least 16 hours. A long time to be stuck on a train. I was on a train for over 24 hours. They couldn't get through the snow to get someone to us up on the mountain to relieve us. Yes, 24 hours just sitting there. But it's a lot better because they were having too many accidents and people would just fall asleep right on the tracks. Yeah, unfortunately, I've done that too. AK: It would be hard not to. Those are some long hours. 'Cause you said, you were 12 hours on and 12 hours off? DS: Yes. Beforehand, I used to work, say, eight hours. If you worked less than eight hours, the dispatcher would call you back in six and half hours, allowing you 90- 19 of 44 minutes to get to work. Oh yes, it was tough. I fell asleep one time and ran into the side of another train here in the Ogden yard. Yep, they didn’t like me for that one. But it was due to the eight on and eight off hours, that was constant and left very little room to rest. AK: That's exhausting. DS: Yeah, it was. It really was. AK: How many years did you work like that? DS: It was for the most part of 27 years consistently, not like the eight on and off. However, with the 12 hours off, it was constant because you were on-call. By the time you got home, you had 12 hours before the phone would ring off the hook, letting you know that you’re scheduled for work and you have 90 minutes to get there. I was on what is called the “extra board.” Meaning you may have to go to Milford, Utah or to Pocatello, Idaho. AK: Did you ever have full days off with your family? DS: Yeah, not very often. Say, for instance, like Thanksgiving: I would always get a phone call right after dinner on Thanksgiving. You know, seems like everybody wanted to lay off, and I didn't, and the phone would ring. So, yes, I missed a lot of family gatherings, anniversaries, birthdays, 4th of July, Valentine’s Day, Christmas’ and New Years. AK: That’s crazy. That’s so hard. What did your family look like at that time? DS: Basically, it was Betty, our youngest daughter, Ayesha and me most of the time. AK: So most of your kids were grown and gone? DS: Yes, basically, that was it most of the time. 20 of 44 AK: That's crazy. That's gotta be so hard though. Were you able to keep in touch with Betty through phone calls or anything like that? DS: Oh, yeah. I'd call her when I got to the hotel. You know, they had cell phones, thank goodness, by then. We didn't have cell phones until 1994. They hadn’t been around very long; mainly flip and blackberry phones and were always expensive back then. But they had a number they used to assign us that you could call anywhere for free using a phone card (which you had to get), for you and your family. That lasted for a while. AK: That's quite the busy life. Did you enjoy it? DS: Yes, I enjoyed it. As I stated earlier, I missed a lot. I made it a point or tried not to work on Betty’s birthday. I got to celebrate some birthdays, but I did miss a lot, like grandkids’ births, special events and people passing away and funeral services. AK: A lot of sacrifice. DS: Yeah, it was. It was a lot, but I loved it and it was worth it in the end. AK: So you mentioned that oftentimes in the engine with you, you'd have the conductor and the brakeman. Is that correct? DS: Yeah, mainly the conductor and engineer, but we had a brakeman. It'll be us three, or if we had a second engine, you usually had two- or three-unit engines on the front end. Usually, the brakeman would climb back to the second one and just chill by himself. You would have a seat on the side for the engineer and one on the left for the conductor to complete all the paperwork that you have, i.e.; noting what cars go here, what's on the train, and whatnot. I have a list, but I'm 21 of 44 not really looking. I have what I call track warrants so I can know what's going on. They’re doing all the work maybe ten miles up there. I need to know where I'm at. But the way it is now, you put it in the computer inside the engine unit, and the other won't let you go past there. The system does a lot of everything. AK: That's amazing. So when I talked to you at the museum exhibit event last month, you mentioned being able to go on a steam engine. So tell me, what was the story behind that? DS: Oh, that was great! Back then, they had what they call pilots; you get engineers that run those, and they call us a pilot, because they're not familiar with the territory, and they happened to call me when I was on the AC board. They said, “We need us a pilot on this steam engine going to Green River.” I thought, "Well, that's cool." So, just to make sure, I'm telling him where we’re at on the territory. It was great and very dirty, but it was still great. A lot of soot and stuff like that. It's just an extremely dirty job. My hat's off to the Steam Engine Engineers. I don't see how they did it. AK: So did you have the windows open? Is that why you'd get the soot on you? DS: Yeah, they like keeping the windows open for some reason, except when we went through tunnels, they tried to shut them. But still, it was just dirty. There was a lot of ashy-like stuff. They use fuel now, but back then they used coal. But still, they have the heat, that's what keeps you going, keeps that steam going, and so you had to throw sand in there. They would have buckets of sand, to break that up inside the boiler where the fire was going. So, you had to do that, and I never did get to run it, but I'd sit back and watch. The guy that was running it looked like 22 of 44 he was built like Arnold Schwarzenegger, because the controls were manual and they had a lot of things to do back then – it wasn't this new technology where you hit a button, you know. Everything was on you to navigate, grabbing these switches, moving them to where you needed them to go, and they weren't easy to move. AK: Very like manual/analog. DS: Yes, yes, very much so. But it was fine and I'm glad I had the experience. Would I want to do it again? No. No, but I can say I did it once and that's the main thing. AK: It was just the one run, then? DS Yeah. Just from here in Ogden up to Green River. The timing was just right, and it worked out. I always wanted to do that. AK: That's cool. What was it carrying? DS: Just passengers. It was a little tour train. You know, they travel all over the country. They were coming from Las Vegas. So, they came through Ogden and needed to get a different pilot from Ogden. They had one similar train that would come in from Milford, but they were bused back home. You go from here to Green River and then you’re bused back home, and you're done. But overall, it was a great experience. Additionally, you would have a manager that goes with us too. But yeah. There were people who would pay that money to ride back there. Or you may have a lot of management ride to just say, “they rode on those fancy cars they had and go wherever it went.” AK: That's really cool. So with the diesel trains that you would usually drive, they were all freight trains, I'm assuming. Is that correct? 23 of 44 DS: Yes, they were all freight. I didn't have to run passenger’s train; however, I've been on one as a pilot. Again, coming out of Salt Lake, there’s a train, I think it's called the Oriental which is a special and little fancy one people spend a lot of money to ride on. So, I have been called as a pilot to ride on that one to Ogden. I learned a lot about that thing, it’s so fast. [Laughs] and quick. I didn't get a chance to go out and ride the passenger cars, it wasn't steam. just a regular engine, kind of like an Amtrak engine. That's about as far as I would come to that. AK: Yeah. So what would your trains typically haul when you were doing freight trains? DS: Oh, gosh, it could be military equipment. We did that during the war, a lot of military equipment. A lot of oil, potatoes, beets and grain were taken into Idaho, with quite a bit of grain coming out of there as well. Mostly, it could vary, especially hauling things that required refrigeration and frozen things for local stores. They called them piggybacks, you know. They had some trailers that hauled stuff and then they'd have trucks come and move them. Also, they had what they call double-stacks, which looked like two trailers were stacked on top of each other. So, we hauled bits of everything, mostly different products for stores like Wal-Mart and other businesses. We also carried cars for dealerships, pigs and other livestock years ago. Hauling pigs wasn’t fun at all; the pigs don't smell good. They needed water in their troughs when we pulled up somewhere, so we made sure they were filled if needed when we were stuck out there somewhere. 24 of 44 AK: Really? They didn't have anybody come with you to take care of the animals? You'd have to be in charge of that? DS: Oh, yeah, they had us do that back then. AK: Interesting. Okay. Oh, I had another question coming to mind: So It sounds like you went through a lot of colder areas, you know, with Idaho, Utah and those areas. Did you ever have issues with ice on the tracks or anything? DS: Ice? Yes of course. They had what they used to use is sand, they had these sanders and you hit this button, and underneath the wheels, it sprays the sand on there so you can get traction on the wheel. But yes, we had plenty of ice and aso crickets to deal with. They had what they called the Mormon crickets and they were just horrible. Because, for some reason, in between Elko and a place called Montella, there's just thousands of them. It made going up a hill difficult, they would get on the tracks, and sometimes you would run over them and it gets greasy stuck, and they're a mess. Alyssa grimaces so David stops himself and laughs], yeah. It's [laughs] not a nice sight and that was worse than ice on there. There's been times you would get tumbleweed growing between the cuts, and you can't go nowhere because when you get on one of these, they will make your train wheels spin and they can catch fire. So, we used to get someone out there from the maintenance way crew to come clean them out from between the tracks. I've seen trains having to back all the way down the mountain because of the tumbleweed and they'll be stacked about as high as this building. The wind blows them right up there. But it’s very interesting sometimes, a learning process and I enjoyed that, though, what I experienced on every train. 25 of 44 AK: So, I kind of want to back up a little bit since this is, you know, obviously for the Union Station as well. So tell me about some of your memories of working here. Like, was it pretty busy during 1990, when you started as a brakeman? DS: Through here? Yes. You know, when I walk down there, behind the Union Station, there used to be something they called a Turn Table, they used it to turn the Engines around to go in different directions, I barely can now remember. They took it out. This empty space behind us here where we’re currently sitting. I thought they used to have a caboose and stuff back there. AK: Was it the switch building? DS: Switch? It might have been. Yeah, that's changed there a lot. You know, the passenger trains don't come through here anymore. You used to see those out there all the time. There would also be a lot of boxing matches in the main area every Friday and Saturday. They would put a Boxing ring in the middle. However, I don't know how they got all those people in here, but we used to come in and watch the matches. Sometimes people would just come in just to look in the museum, trains and climb on them to see what they looked like inside. On the south end of the station, there were old engines placed there when I was a kid. You didn’t see a lot of people inside because there wasn’t much stuff to see. AK: So were the boxing matches held here before there was a museum here? DS: I think so, yeah. It was before some of these museums were added in here. It was right there in that open area where they used to have passenger seating for those waiting to catch the train is where they placed a little ring. I don’t want to 26 of 44 get it wrong, but I believe it was the Fullmer’s from Salt Lake City. He was a world heavyweight champion at one time, and I can't remember his first name, maybe its Gene, but I know his last name was Fullmer. At the time, they used to have a boxing program out of Salt Lake, and they’d bring lot of matches to the Union Station and the Marshall White Center too. AK: That's cool. I hadn't heard that before. So it sounds like they continued to use the Union Station as a venue even after passenger service virtually stopped. DS: Yes, they did. AK: Do you remember any other activities like that held in Union Station? DS: Like that? None, that I came to like that. Just those, like I said prior and as kids you come down here, just basically to watch the passing trains. I know they used to have tunnels that ran from where the passenger train should come to, all the way west of the building about 20 to 30 yards, or about, probably about 8, 10, 11 tracks, west of there. We had to walk under the tracks to get to the other side, because this place was very busy back then and with a lot of passenger trains. So, I remember that and as I think back on it, I can't believe I was out here running around all that stuff. Well, you know, as a kid, I never realized how dangerous it was. But it was a crazy place. AK: ‘Cause you were allowed to just run across the tracks and stuff as a kid? DS: Well, probably not allowed, but I was a kid, but you know how kids are, running and sneaking around, doing stuff like that. But working here since 1990, I witnessed a lot of change with the bringing in of other programs, restaurants, exhibitions to name a few. 27 of 44 AK: That's so cool. I just remembered: you’d mentioned the other day that your mom would feed a lot of the transients who were riding on the train and stopped in Ogden. DS: Yes, they’d come through in the summertime. They would get off the train, then pass our house on Patterson down the street, and a lot of them would be hungry. Some would hang out down in an area where they called it the “hobo jungle” along the river. Some would even live and camp out there. They camped out until the city claimed that land. Sometimes they would come by our house and my mom would see them, feed those who were hungry, give them a cooked meal. There were times when you would see them a couple of more times or maybe not until the next year, as they were passing through. She fed a lot of people because that’s who she was. AK: I didn't know about the hobo jungle by the river. That's really cool. DS: Yeah, they were right along the river, camped out there. I remember going down there as a kid, messing with them [laughs]. AK: What would you do? DS: Just throw stuff at them, being kids, you know, messing with them. Nothing major and our parents didn't know that we did that. We’d sneak over there and come back. AK: That's funny. Did you ever make friends with any of them? DS: I would not say I made friends, but I knew some of them when I’d see them. AK: And would they come up to your house, or would your mom go to them? 28 of 44 DS: Yes. When they would come by, she'd say, “Are you hungry? You want something to eat?” They come into the house to have something to eat. She never did turn anyone down who was hungry. AK: That's really cool. And you mentioned some of them had been movie stars at one point? DS: I remember this one lady named Mary Jane, and I can't remember her last name. But she was a movie star out of California, a very beautiful lady, and she had kind of golden-blondish hair. I remember seeing her picture. She became an alcoholic, and I guess, you know, just lost everything. I've heard some of them talking about how they were lawyers or doctors before they were out there. Sometimes somethings just happen in life, you know, mental illness or whatnot. But they are out there, and you would be surprised by the stories behind them. AK: Interesting. And then they would just ride the tracks, just looking for jobs? Or what were they doing? DS: Yes, looking for work and just going nowhere for a lot of them. Some would come especially during the summertime when the weather is good. In the wintertime, you don’t see them as much, some heading west or southeast where it’s a little warmer. Sometimes the same ones would come every year. AK: Speaking of your neighborhood, were there a lot of railroad workers that lived near where you lived? DS: No, not that I recall. I'm sure there were a few. A lot of men lived in that red zone area, which you are familiar with. So, there were some, but not a lot. 29 of 44 AK: Yeah. I'm just curious how big of an employer Union Station was during your childhood. DS: When I was hired, there were quite a lot of people. Betty's Dad worked for them, and Sister Sarah McClellan’s Husband also worked for the railroad. Several of my friends worked for them and some applied and weren’t hired. The railroad was one of the main employers in the Ogden area along with Hill Air Force Base. AK: What did Betty's dad do for the railroad? DS: He was a car man working on the cars in the yard. They had a carmen shop located between 28th to 33rd Street, west of Wall Avenue a little further back from where the tracks were located. You can see it from the 31st Street bridge before turning to enter the freeway. If you had train brakes or other equipment problems, that’s where you’d take it to what they called “the car shop” to repair them. AK: Oh, I think I just remembered: So we were talking about the building back behind where the tracks were. Was it the roundhouse? Is that what that was? DS: Yeah, it was right here off 21st Street, kind of north from where we’re sitting now. Used to be just on this side of the viaduct and it was called the “roundhouse turntable.” They used to turn trains around there to go the other way to get the engine connected to go south, north or east. Southern Pacific used to run through there and they ran that roundhouse. Southern and Union merged together in the late 1990s or early 2000s to become solely Union Pacific Railroad (UPPR). 30 of 44 AK: Was that roundhouse still back there when you were working as a brakeman here? DS: Well, no, it wasn't running, and you could see where the turntable was located. With one being in Salt Lake, they moved everything down there behind the diesel shop. Yeah, I worked at that one as a Hostler. We would move power around wherever they need it, or we'll put it on the train. That’s what I did for about two years, just moving power. AK: Okay, move power? What do you mean by that? DS: Well, you would take the engine to service them there and say, “Okay, that goes on this OGCY” (Ogden-Cheyanne) train and place “over here on track 15,” and we’d get power connected to it by shooting the air to it. Once you do that, the carman will come, put a flag on it to work on it. When they're done doing that, they call a crew to take it to Wyoming. I didn't switch cars doing that, I was an engineer sitting in the engine moving the power around in the yard wherever they needed it. AK: That's cool. That's interesting. So okay, the first time I heard of the job “Hostlers,” it was actually because of the Hostlers Model Railroad Club. Have you ever been a part of that at all? DS: No, I never have. AK: Were there any kind of social clubs that the railroad workers were part of when you were there? Or was that more early on? DS: Not that I was aware. I wasn’t a part of that, but I'm sure there was some. How I heard about the Hostler was through a neighbor of mine. He had a nice little 31 of 44 train set in his house and I believe he’s a part of that club. The name that was given to the head engineer was a Hostler and a Herder was kind of like that. AK: Well, before we close, do you have any other memories of Union Station when you were a kid – or even when you were older – that you feel would be important to add? DS: No, nothing currently. Maybe because I have been working so much and hadn’t had the opportunity to visit the Station in the past 32 years. Since retirement, I have liked to come to the museum and go through them, especially the Black History Museum here. I’ve walked through that maybe once or twice while looking at the car museum which has been here for a while. Otherwise, not as much. AK: Because when you were working, you were mainly based out of the Salt Lake train depot there? DS: I was hired out of Salt Lake, and I ended up coming to Ogden where I spent most of my career. AK: Did the Union Pacific still have offices here? Or how did that work? DS: They used to have an office just right off west 28th Street and Wall Avenue, and they shut that down. Their office is now “the yard,” as they call it, which located on West 21st Street and Wall. However, the main office headquarters is in downtown Salt Lake just by the Delta Center. It’s the big office which is also a part of the Salt Lake Community College (SLCC) where they have training centers on campus. There are people who come there from all over the country to train for the railroad. If you live in Omaha, Nebraska, and you want to be an 32 of 44 engineer, you come here to train, and they offer hotel and other accommodations for the length required for training. AK: So it's the only one in the region then? DS: Yes, they are sent here, especially engineers, to learn. However, I don't know where conductors receive theirs. AK: That's at Salt Lake Community College, you said? DS: Yes. AK: While you were working here as a brakeman it was still pretty busy, do you remember how many other brakemen would be on your team typically? DS: There would be two of us. When you go to a hotel, or like I'm saying, they had a caboose, you know. And then they had an engineer, a conductor, and two brakemen. And so we're back there, You know. If we have something way back in the rear to do, we had the radios, we’d get off and do the work. And up front, the conductor needed to disconnect cars or whatnot, and he'd do it on his end. And then they went down to, I guess, a conductor and one brakeman. And then they got rid of the caboose, but they still kept the brakemen for a while and you know. They got what they call the End of Train device – EOT – and so that got rid of the caboose. But yeah. They used to use cabooses in a lot of the local jobs here. Like they’d go to West Ogden and over the hill, the tracks will be over there. They had a caboose, you know, it's just something they used to pull back in there and they know they go do the work, come in there, stay warm, they have the heaters in. 33 of 44 AK: 'Cause the caboose was mainly so you’d have a place to sleep or get warm or whatever? DS: Yes. They didn't have what they called an EOT device back then, in the End of Training device (EOT) because it just changed everything. They just got rid of the caboose in the back. When my mom’s family first moved to Price, Utah they lived in a caboose for a year or so while they worked in the coal mines as miners. AK: Because when you go into a caboose, I'm trying to remember, there's like a bunk bed kind of thing, is that right? DS: Yes, it had a coal burning stove inside, and a very small restroom. It was just a place to lay your head. AK: Did she have you at that time? DS: She had one sister who passed away when they got here, and Mom was about five years old. After that she was raised as an only child living with her parents. AK: Okay, so this is when she was a kid, not when she was your mom. DS: Now when she turned 18, she graduated from Price High School at which time, she met my dad and they moved from that area. He came to Price from Arizona via Tacoma for work. They relocated to the Centerville and Ogden area, and he worked at the Arsenal Building. I am sure it was very hard for her family to live in a caboose, which I can’t imagine, and they also lived in a tent for years. Again, they had a rough time. AK: That's crazy. That's quite the life. Okay, so just wrapping up, I want to talk a little bit about Union Station as kind of a community center. Because as you talked about, they had boxing and different community events like that. So, in your 34 of 44 memory, what do you feel like has been the way that Union Station has been significant to Ogden? How has it impacted Ogden, that you see? DS: I think it has a great deal while being the center of Ogden. I think, like you said, they call it The Junction for a reason, because a lot goes on here. Even though I'm not constantly involved in it, it appears that many things, activities and events seem to revolve around Union Station. People come to see it and take pictures. I see sometimes when driving by or walking on 25th Street, many prom and wedding pictures are taken here. It makes you wonder, would there be a 25th Street if there wasn't a Union Station? You don't know. However, I do believe they are and will remain connected. It's made a big difference in this community. You hear about it a lot from what I recall. AK: That's an interesting point: If there wasn't a Union Station, would there be a 25th Street? DS: You know, because like I said previously. When passenger trains came through, some of them had great people who were amazing jazz musicians like Dizzy Gillespie and B.B. King. They would stay here when they had a layover and go to the AnnaBelle Club on 25th Street to perform, while waiting for their next train heading to California or wherever they were going. The military would have functions by train and so people would come here, and they go on 25th Street would later say, “Okay. It's time to go,” and they come back to Union Station to wait. It was the center of Ogden, and I don't think 25th Street probably would not exist if it wasn't for Union Station, because no one would come here. It made a big difference. 35 of 44 AK: Were you ever able to go to AnnaBelle's place? DS: Oh, no. I really don’t remember, I was a youngster during that time [laughs]. She was an influencer and trailblazer along with Willie Moore who owned the first Black Barbershop on the corner of 25th Street and Lincoln, which still stands today. Mr. Moore told me many stories about her, and what was going on in those days including his days as a player for the Harlem Globe Trotters. He was also the first person to cut my hair as he was for many others. Mrs. AnnaBelle Weakly and Mr. Moore have since passed on. However, the Barbershop name’s sake is still thriving on 25th Street and Lincoln under a new owner who Mr. Moore’s family has approved them to use his name for continuity and keep his legacy alive in the community. AK: That's cool. It looks like there's two shops, right? There's one on 25th Street and then one back a couple streets over. Is that right? DS: Yes, there is a second location in the 200 block of 30th Street between Lincoln and Grant Avenues. Mr. Moore was his mentor for years. AK: Is that the location you would go to when you’d get your haircut? DS: Yeah, and speaking of haircut, I might have to get one tomorrow [laughs] at the 25th Street location. Thank you, Brigham Young, because he didn't want the main train station to be in Salt Lake City. So, they bought this land in Corinne, which I could see going to Idaho on the train and was nothing out there then. At that time of purchase, they needed a hub and my from understanding put it right here, and now we've got good old Ogden. AK: And then you retired after how many years? 36 of 44 DS: 32 years which was two years ago. AK: Do you miss it? DS: No. Not those hours, but I do miss the people who were great people that worked there. I enjoyed working with the guys and I adore what I did, but not being called at one and/or five in the morning, "Can you come to work?" after I told him no, again, on my days off. But it was a great job. No regrets. AK: Yeah, that's a long time to have those kinds of hours, so I don't blame you at all. DS: There are some guys that's been there 40 years. Oh, my goodness, 45 years. But some of them started working there right after high school. I hired out late, but some of my friends started at 18 years old. AK: That's a long time. DS: Yes, it is a long time. However, you must start work somewhere. AK: That's true, actually. That's a good point. How do you feel that the community can keep Union Station relevant for future generations? DS: I think you need to get more of the younger generation involved. I really do. How you would go about that, I wouldn't know. But some of them might be interested in history, the car museum here and the Black history museum. Getting them engaged may be a challenge. An idea may be to bring back boxing, having car shows and other exhibits which may interest adults as well. Just something to draw them here and they can other things that the Union Station has to offer. AK: That's a good point because, like you said, you just have to get them down here, then they'll see everything else. 37 of 44 DS: Yes, if that's what works. They can share with someone to get them interested. The reason I can say that is because my grandkids, I know how they think, you know? And some of my kids are interested in the history, and others are not so engaged. I am sure there’s something out there that captures their attention. AK: And were you saying that you have been able to bring your family down to the museum, while they were growing up? Or was it more recently? DS: Well, when they were younger, I brought some of my kids down, and they went, "Eh, okay.", "Oh, that's a cool car”, but they weren't overly excited about it. That's kind of one of the things where they don't have a choice. I don't force them, but you know, I'm taking them anyway. Something like a little area with a game area or something simple, nothing outrageous. You know kids; you have to think outside the box for their interest. AK: Yeah, find ways to help them connect. DS: I'm sure they can generate something with the amazing technology of today about the Union Station in a game format. It's hard to say. AK: Maybe having a personal tie. Like, for your kids, was it more interesting to them to see the train museum after they knew you’d worked on trains? Or was it still just a museum? DS: Well, no. "He works for the train [in a bored tone]." So, when Jesse Jackson came here to speak at Weber State, I had to make them go. Well, you know, they were young, they didn't have a choice. I said, "I'm taking you out of school so you can see this," because this type of event doesn’t happen here often. I try to get them interested into something like that. Also, I had them watch the Malcolm X 38 of 44 story and then the Martin Luther King story. "Dad, why are we watching that?" "Because you have to." There were a lot of things that I didn’t want to do in school or after, but it was knowledge and something that might engage them. I have no clue what some of the kids like today. I asked my grandsons when they were younger, “do you want to go outside and make a snowman?” They looked at me like I lost my mind and said, “Grandpa, it’s too cold outside to play.” AK: [laughing] That's so funny. DS: As kids, we didn't have all that, you know. Our parents would say, “Ya’ll go outside.” We were glad to go, having fun throwing snowballs and stuff. It was the same thing in the summer for us, going outside to have fun. I have a grandson who takes his video game with him all the time or he’s pacing if he doesn’t have it. AK: That's true. It's a really different world now, so we gotta find new ways to engage them. DS: Yeah. AK: That cracks me up that he didn't want to make a snowman. I feel like that's a classic Christmas thing to do, but… DS: No, not this generation. You know, it is what it is, and I think it has a lot to do with parents, too. You must engage with them and keep them interested. If they don't know, then they don't know. So. sometimes you just must encourage them to do some things they have never done, so they will find out and may be not the way you desired for them to learn. 39 of 44 AK: Yeah, yeah that makes sense. Well, is there anything else you want to add before we end? DS: Other than thank you for asking to interview me. I hope it will turn out well. I feel like I'm just sitting here blabbering, but I hope whatever information and knowledge I shared will be helpful. AK: Oh, definitely. Thank you. Honestly it was so fun to be able to interview you. I was actually realizing, because I try to keep these about an hour and a half, we're at an hour and a half now. And I was like, "Aw, there are more stories that I think would be so fun to ask." So thank you. It was very interesting. And thanks for letting me ask all the random prying questions. DS: Oh, no. That's fine. That's the only way you'll find out because, you know, I'll tell you something and I keep it straight and simple, but sometimes you got to ask questions to get it out. You know, if you don't, people are not going to say it – maybe me too. And that's just the way it is. You got to ask if you want to know. So, you know, the closed mouth don't eat, they say. AK: Yeah, that's fair [laughs]. DS: Yeah. If you don't ask, then you aren’t going to know. AK: Well, it's so fun because I don't work for the railroads so I don't know a lot of this stuff. So it's been interesting to be able to learn from people like you. DS: As I stated, I was just running around as a kid, you know, a knuckle-head kid eating, and doing stuff. But I always wanted to work for the railroad. As the years went by, and getting a train set for years. I bought one for our grandkids to see after placing it around the Christmas tree. When I came home and my son, who 40 of 44 is now 38, standing there with is in his hand. I said, “What are you doing [laughs] and he say this little latch with the knuckle broke.” I picked it up and looked at it and said, “why would you touch it?” I put it back in the box and never brought it out again, it’s collecting dusk I am sure in the box. He was a teenager and was old enough to understand not to touch it. AK: When you were a kid, was it like a model train set? DS: Yeah, model train. AK: That's cool. Would you play with it, or would you just kind of watch it? DS: I played with them and took care of them. But I don't have them anymore. I always looked forward to getting a train set. Some of my friends didn’t always get one for whatever reason. Although, some people we knew had them, the one that would go through their houses. I was fortunate to always have a train set. AK: Did you ever have the one that would go around the Christmas tree? DS: They had one, well, the way they made homes back then, you know, they had all the a lot of doors; You’d go from one door to the bedroom, you had another go out the other way, then go through the kitchen and come around to the dining room. Yeah. There's always an opening, so they built a tracks around it and they, yeah. Or they have them up over the top in the house. Yeah, they were really into it. I wasn't like that, but they were. AK: That’s so cool. What were yours like, then? DS: They were made by Mattel or different ones. They were little in size, about 3 inches in diameter. I can’t remember what scale they called it, seeming about average size. As a kid, I didn’t really take care of it, however, as I got a little 41 of 44 older, my parents would get me one every year. I’ve bought them myself as an adult. AK: Yeah. And would your brothers play with it with you as well? Or were you pretty protective? DS: No, I was the train kid and if they did have an interest in trains, I didn't know about it. AK: And were your friends interested in trains with you as well? DS: No, they weren't really interested in me. They knew I liked trains and wanted to work for the railroad. It really wasn’t the right time initially. However, that time did come, and I applied again and got the job. AK: Yeah, just out of curiosity, why didn't you apply right out of high school? DS: I did, they just didn't hire me. I applied like my friends and stood in line right out here [pointing out the east side of the Union Station]. They used to have long lines of people waiting to be hired. AK: Oh, really? They would have certain days when they would do interviews, or…? DS: The process was to come here and fill out your application in a line which started at the doorway over there at the Station main entrance. A lot of people were waiting in line to put in their application for the railroad. Initially, I didn’t get hired, but some of my friends did. Possibly because they had parents that currently worked for UP or knew someone else who did, it apparently made a difference of getting hired or not. I thought after they didn’t hire me at first, “oh man, they didn’t hire me, and it wasn’t meant to be.” AK: That is hard since you always wanted to work there. 42 of 44 DS: As I said before, my father-in-law at the time was a veteran's rep at the Ogden Job service, and said, "They're hiring someone" and I came to apply. AK: Yeah, try again. Did the Union Pacific have an office in the Union Station, then, that they would conduct these interviews in? DS: Yes, at that time, they would set up an office somewhere here in the Station, taking applications and conducting interviews. It brought in a mass of people. They would also hire from here as well. Someone from the Omaha, Nebraska office would come here to conduct the job process, etc. AK: Interesting. So you didn't get the job with the railroad, so you ended up trying Hill Air Force Base? DS: Yeah. I was the aircraft seatbelt mechanic out there for five years. And before that, worked at Jetway, and did the jet wash for the planes. Yeah. Little bit of everything. AK: That's awesome. Like I said, so many questions that I would love to ask, but I know they're not relevant, so [laughs] . Well, thank you so much, David. DS: Thank you, I appreciate your time. AK: Well, I really appreciate all of your time. 43 of 44