Oral History Program Marjorie Scott Norrie Interviewed by Evelyn Bertilson 18 August 1980 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Marjorie Scott Norrie Interviewed by Evelyn Bertilson 18 August 1980 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Norrie, Marjorie Scott, an oral history by Evelyn Bertilson, 18 August 1980, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Marjorie Scott Norrie. The interview was conducted on August 18, 1980, by Evelyn Bertilson, in Warm Springs, Idaho. Mrs. Norrie discusses some personal memories of her childhood as well as some explanation of her family history and lineage. Also present during the first part of the interview is an unknown individual going by the name of Rosamond. EB: We're visiting with Marjorie Norrie at Warm Springs, Idaho, August 18, 1980. We're going to visit with Marjorie about her childhood; in particular, we're going to visit about memories of her grandmother--her maternal grandmother—Harriet Caroline Reed Rathbone. Marjorie, tell us a little about yourself: when you were born, your full name, who you were named after... MN: Okay, I was born October 23, 1911, one of three children. Two brothers, one younger and one older, and I started school in Lincoln where we lived at that time. Then we moved... EB: You were born in Lincoln, Nebraska then? MN: No, we lived in Lincoln. I was the only one of the children that was not born in Lincoln. We lived in Lincoln at the time my youngest brother, Max, was born. My oldest brother was born there, we went to Lakewood, Washington, had me, then we moved back and Max was born in Lincoln. So my oldest brother and younger brother were born in Lincoln. EB: You were born in Lakewood? 1 MN: Lakewood, well Arlington. Both my mother and dad were born in Nebraska, well I don't know if they were. But, they grew up there. EB: I think they were. MN: I started school there then we moved out to Lakewood; from then on the folks never moved back to Nebraska. Now, this is all wrong, Evelyn. EB: Then start all over again. MN: My family...Where was Mom and Dad born? R: Your mother? MN: We've got the records at home. R: I don't know, Marjorie. MN: Some counties, they called it. R: Hardin County? MN: We'll have to look it up. R: Was it back in Iowa? MN: Evelyn probably has it. But, talking, you know of, she came up with kind of surprising things. One time when I was quite young she said we were talking about how many children she's had and she said, "Well, every time Grandpa hung his pants on my bed I got pregnant." I was so shocked I said, "Grandma'" I remember that all these years, she was so cute. R: Well, I'll leave you to have your interview. 2 EB: You come back! I want more about your immediate family and more remembrances of your grandma. Tell me more about your immediate family and where they were born. Vernon was born in Lincoln, and now... MN: Vernon (Vernon was later called Scotty and we knew him as Uncle Scotty. He died in 1980.) I was born in Lincoln, we came out west cause my Uncle Ursie had already come out and encouraged us to come as I understand it. So we came out to Lakewood. I think Arlington was the post office address. I was born out here and I don't know why my folks went back. I don't know, and then they went back, possibly because my grandmother and grandfather were still there. And my grandfather was sick and whether? I can't remember. EB: Well, you were very young? MN: I have the memory of what my mother has told, which is what I am thinking of. We went back and Max was born back there and then Uncle Ursie, by that time had married Aunt Nellie who was mother's sister two brothers married two sisters). They were brother and sister and brother and sister that married. So, anyway, they encouraged us to come back out to Lakewood. I think it was at that time, if I remember the story right, Uncle Ursie had started a mercantile company and Dad had to come out to get into it with him. So we came back out. I can remember on the train coming out we must have--we were in first (class). Anyway, Scotty (Vernon) had one of those pin toys (pinwheels), it's a little celluloid that was on pins, and it whirled around and my goodness, he dropped it some place out of the window and he lost it. That was a terrible, terrible thing, and another thing: There was a black man as a porter, and apparently he (Scotty) had never seen a black man and he (Scotty) was so intrigued by him Mom had a terrible time keeping his 3 eyes off this man who was of a different color. I can remember that so well. But we came out then, and after Max was born, we never went back, except to visit. EB: When you came out, Max was born in Lincoln? Was he a babe in arm, or do you remember the year that the family... MN: I presume that Max was about, I can't remember the year, except that Max was about 5 when we came back out. I started grade school back there. EB: In Lincoln? You started grade school in Lincoln? First grade? MN: Yes, I'm sure. EB: Second grade? MN: First. I started school as a first grader back there. And I can't remember whether we came out my second year or not. EB: I see. MN: Scotty, you see, was 2 years older than I. Then we came out when Dad worked in the grocery store with Uncle Ursie. EB: Now, you called it a mercantile? MN: Well, it was a grocery store, I think it was first called a mercantile. They had everything. They had material--cloth material, and, of course, a lot of feed because there was a lot of cows and chickens in that area and I remember they used to get the feed in on flatcars that came right into Lakewood. They were unloaded and put into this big back room of the store. But eventually, I don't remember, I thought it was called mercantile at 4 first. Eventually, it ended up as a grocery store because they got rid of stuff, but they used to have pickled herring and a post office. EB: It was the general store, then, of Lakewood? Or was there any competition? MN: There was competition and I can't remember whether that was when--that was there first, I think. The competition came in a little later. And it (Lakewood) was going to be quite a metropolis because another grocery store and a hotel--with a big top floor where they used to show moving pictures once in a while when movie pictures first came in. They had a meat market over there. They had a fire--I don't remember what it was-- it was a real devastating thing, took the whole block. All those businesses which were in that block which was not close enough to have any fear of (touching) our grocery store, no houses went with it. Then they had no equipment, if it caught fire it just went. EB: Uncle Ursie and your dad's store did not burn? MN: No, and the blacksmith's shop didn't burn, just this store and the grocery store and the blacksmith shop that remained. It was never, to my knowledge, it was never built up again. Of course, my dad used to drive a truck up to Lakewood (Arlington) with the feed and the people would call in for their grocery order and Dad would take the truck and go on up on Thursday afternoons, I think, in the mornings to deliver all this stuff up there and Dad went into Everett. I've forgotten how often, but I think once a week and it was quite a thing to go clear into Everett, you know, the long way around. He'd bring home the cookies that came in great big tins and all the things they needed for the hotels and houses and bring them back. He didn't used to get home for dinner until 7 or 8 o'clock. We always used to worry. In the fog at nighttime. Well, business got real bad because Safeway came in, I presume it was Marysville, started coming in other towns and they 5 had a huge charge account at the grocery store because people got their milk checks so often and they'd run grocery bills until a certain time and then they'd come in and pay when they got their check. When Safeway came in, they had to pay cash there. I'm sure the prices were cheaper. So they went to Safeway to pay their cash and came to Uncle Ursie's store when they had no more cash and charged. I don't think Uncle Ursie--he had so much faith in the people that he'd known for so long that he just assumed they'd pay every month. Well, it just got worse, and worse. They finally had to go out of business. They'd get flour in and I could remember getting baking flour in these great big sacks. Sugar came in 500 pound sacks. Finally it got so bad that they'd have to sign before they'd take them out to the flatcars because their credit rating was so bad. EB: And he wasn't being paid? MN: That's right, he wasn't being paid. So people owed five or six hundred dollars which was absolutely terrible in those days for anyone to owe a grocery bill like that. EB: Now are you talking the 20's or the beginning of the Depression? MN: No, I'm talking when the Safeway stores, cash-and-carry grocery stores, first went in. That must have been when I was about--probably beginning high school or the last of my grade school days. Anyway, the grocery store then got so small--I guess it was just because you couldn't^-they just had to buy what they could and sell what they could and had to knock off a lot of credit which they didn't do it soon enough. It was disastrous. So it turned out then to be just a small grocery store. My dad then, to supplement his income, went, now I don't know when, I never have been able to remember, he went down to Seattle, took a barbershop course and learned to be a barber. He came back and started a barbershop in one part of the grocery store and Saturday afternoons he 6 cut hair in the grocery store to supplement his income and then finally the grocery store just couldn't handle (support) Dad, too. I kind of think that Uncle Ursie went out about that time--I think Uncle Ursie kept on a little longer, so then Dad took a little building there right alongside of the blacksmith's shop and did his barbering. He eventually then got out of that (barbering) entirely and the war came in and was a guard at the depot near Marysville. So he was no longer associated with the grocery store and Uncle Ursie kept on. I'm not sure of this, but eventually his son, Wayne, came up and tried to run it for a while and it didn't pan out. Then they sold it to someone else. Then Uncle Ursie, I guess, at that point retired. EB: Would that have been in the 1940's then that Wayne tried to run the business or earlier? Was it more during the Depression? MN: Well, let's see. It must have been after 19... I think it was 1931 or '32 when Wayne came out and tried to run it for a while. And he lived there and Uncle Ursie moved up to the house that he had bought and then, of course, my Grandpa Rathbone died in Nebraska and then Grandma Rathbone came out with my Uncle Rob who was not married and they lived where we eventually lived. Then Dad was a guard. EB: Do you remember when your Grandpa Rathbone died? MN: No. Rosamond does, but Grandpa was still alive in Lincoln when we left and Grandpa Rathbone died while we were out here. EB: I do (remember when he died). 1918. I have it here on this family sheet. 7 MN: Well, she didn't stay long after Grandpa died. That's what Rosamond felt too--she (Grandma Rathbone) came out just as soon as she could sell her farm to be near Aunt Nel and my mother. EB: Well, she only lived four years longer because she died in 1922. So she sold her home in Lincoln and moved out permanently and Uncle Rob came with her? MN: Yes. And he came with her and died, of course, after Grandma died. He lived with us. We built a little house for him in the back. Grandma left her home, to my mother if she would take care of. Uncle Rob until he died EB: Now her home would have been a home that she purchased in Lakewood? MN: It's a home she purchased. EB: She came out from Lincoln and purchased a home in Lakewood? And left it to your mother if she took care of Uncle Rob? MN: Yes. So we built a little house out back and took care of Uncle Rob until he died. That was the home that you had seen. Grandma Rathbone died of cancer. They thought it was from--now I don't know, it's been so many years, but at the time she had been in an auto accident with Dorothy Howell and she hurt her abdomen very badly and her trouble started right after that. But, who knows? I don't know. They kept them home in those days. We hired a nurse from Everett which was difficult and expensive. Mother was pregnant again- at that time and couldn't go up and take care of her too much. Mother was having troubles with her heart. She had to stay in bed. So Grandma died at home. Those times they didn't take you to the hospital like they do now. She wouldn't have wanted to go anyway. I don't remember how long Uncle Rob lived afterwards. But he 8 had been kicked by a horse—I hope I'm right on this--he was kicked by a horse when he was a young man and he got what I think they now call ulcerated veins. In his one leg especially and it drained. He used to have to-wrap his leg. We tried every salve. It was so long ago that they didn't know how to treat these things. He was not even unwell really, but one morning he didn't come into breakfast and Mother knocked on his door to see what was wrong and he was dead. So apparently his heart just gave out and I don't even remember how old he was. EB: He was 60 years old. He was born in '69 and he died in 1929. And he would have lived 7 years after his mother died in, 1922. MN: That was the year I graduated from high school (1929). EB: What other things do you remember about your Grandmother Rathbone? MN: Oh, she was the most marvelous--I just adored her as did my two brothers. We used to fight to stay all night with Grandma. One of us could go every night if we wanted to her house-r-we could walk to her house—so we'd take turns. One would get to go one night and one the next. Then the boys got so there were other things they had that were interesting, so I could go. I'd go up there and Grandma would make me—I'll never forget this—she used to make me—she'd have tea in the afternoon. She'd want to know if I could have some tea, so I'd say, "Oh, I'd love it, but my mother won't let me have tea." "We'll fix tea that your mom will approve of and she's not here anyway so you can just have tea with me." So all it was hot water with a little milk in it. I thought it was the greatest thing.' It was just really something. She was an unusual woman, really unusual in that she--we minded her and I never heard her speak a cross word to me. And she was just a remarkable woman with many, many friends. I still remember how she got 9 mad one time and I was so shocked. The Methodist Church was the only church except for the two Norwegian churches. Well, my mother and my grandmother and the family were Christian. But they started going to the Methodist Church and of course the Hi 11s--people by the name of Hi 11--were, well, the mainstay of the Methodist Church and they were the superintendent and principal and led the choir and everything else. It was a small church. So they just adopted Grandma Rathbone. They just thought she was great and they started calling her "granny." Grandma just bristled and she said, "I am grandmother to every one of my children, but I am not to these other children'" And I was so shocked. I thought, “What's the difference?” but she would not allow them to call her "Granny." So from then on she was Mrs. Rathbone. I don't know whether she got the point across to them or somebody else did, but from then on she was "Mrs. Rathbone." She was a very dignified and very erect woman and she read her Bible. Her Bible was so worn. Pages would be loose and she'd be sitting there reading her Bible, a real Christian, you know. She lived what she believed. I can't remember Grandpa Rathbone too much except that he used to--we used to sit on his lap and listen to his watch tick and he was just wonderful with children. He was the grandfather that we all wanted to be around. He'd read to us. He was a mail clerk on a railroad and he built houses, and he would--they'd live in a house and redo and renovate it and then they'd make money. He did very well, not really wealthy, but he did real well. EB: I can visualize him with the big old railroad watch, knowing that he worked on the railroad. MN: He was a very tall, big man. A very handsome man--if you have seen his pictures. EB: I have. 10 MN: And a shock of white hair. In fact, my Grandma and Grandpa Rathbone were just great. I could have gone and lived with them just anytime. I just loved them, you know, and I didn't know my Grandma and Grandpa Scott as well. Grandma Scott was kind of stern. She insisted that we mind. Grandma--she--I'm sure she was great, she just wasn't soft. Grandma Rathbone was soft. You know, one time I can remember it was my mother's birthday and I'd walked up and I said, "Grandma," I've not a thing for my mother and it's her birthday--I just don't know what to do. Should I pick some flowers or something like that?" and she said, "Why don't you bake her a cake?" I said, "I don't even know how to bake a cake," and she said, "You can bake a cake." So, I can imagine what I did to her kitchen. You know, we didn't have things that you have now and I got the flour on me and everything, but I baked her a cake and so then Grandma invited them up and we had hot tea, I think it was, and white cake--it was white. EB: Did it have frosting? MN: Oh, you bet.' I think Grandma helped me with the frosting and with the whole cake. She put it out, but I had to do it all, you know. I was as broken hearted when I lost her as when I lost my mother--just that kind of a--but she was a--I can't say enough good things about her. I know you'll never say those things about me. EB: Do you remember any stories that she told? Of course, part of what we're driving at is her brother, Franklin Byron Reed. MN: I don't think Grandma ever discussed him. She may have with Mother, but we didn't know a thing. The only thing I know is that the Rathbone's came over on the Mayflower-I know that. That's the only story I ever heard. But I never--I didn't even know about the Civil War letters until Nancy found them in my mother's trunk after Mother had died and 11 I really didn't know anything about--I never heard anything. They may have talked about it and I may not have known it. 12