Oral History Program Lysle Chard Interviewed by Bob Dabling 04 March 1973 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Lysle Chard Interviewed by Bob Dabling 04 March 1973 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Chard, Lysle, an oral history by Bob Dabling, 04 March 1973, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Lysle Chard. The interview was conducted on March 4, 1973, by Bob Dabling, in the location of Liberty, Utah. Chard discussed his life without electricity and the land boom—both socially and politically— in the north area of Ogden Valley. BD: As we've discussed the subject of happenings in the early history of Liberty, what are some of the advances that you've noted in transportation? How were things in the old days as compared to how they are now? LC: The mode of transportation has varied quite a bit. In the early days all was done by horse-drawn carriages or horseback. Or most generally if we wanted to transport produce to market we'd use a team of horses with a heavier wagon. If we wanted to go for just transportation purposes only, we'd have a light rig that consisted from a one horse buggy to two horse surrey or to a light wagon. And that was our mode of transportation at that time. We didn't have the roads like we have today. They were none of them hard-surfaced and it was an all-day trip to go to Ogden and back. BD: When would you leave in the morning and when would you get back? LC: We'd always leave at seven o'clock in the morning or earlier and we'd take about four hours to get to Ogden. We'd take an hour or an hour and a half until noon to do our business and to feed the horses. Then we'd head back again. It always took a little longer to go back than it would to go down because it was all up hill. BD: You mean it took four hours to go through that canyon? What was the road like? 1 LC: The road in the early days was narrow and it wasn't paved and it was quite rough and dusty. But as time progressed they used to have a sprinkling wagon that would sprinkle the dust to keep the dust down so that it wouldn't wear the road out so much. BD: Well, you mentioned a car or a rail car that was put up through Ogden Canyon. About when did this take place? And what do you think it did for the valley? LC: Well there was a spur of the Bamburger that put a track up Ogden Canyon and as I recall it was along in the late teens, 1919. BD: Just around the end of the First World War? LC: Well, it was probably before that that it came in. I can't remember exactly. Anyway, it was put in for the purpose of transportation for the people to ride down to Ogden. It would go twice a day. It would come up early in the morning and go back down and then come back up at night and go back down. When it was in existence, they carried the mail up to Huntsville. There was a Post Office in Huntsville and one in Eden, and one over in Liberty. The mail was carried two times a day to the valley. It was also used to transport our produce. We could put our produce in cars that would be placed on a siding in the lower end of Eden and also at Huntsville. We could load our produce there and it would be brought to market rather than having to haul it down the canyon with a team of horses. BD: How, it came up twice, right? LC: It came up in the morning and went back. And it might be mentioned here that there were a lot of children of School-age that rode it down to high school. They'd ride it down to high school because we didn't have a high school in the valley. 2 BD: Where did they go? LC: They'd come to Ogden High School. BD: Ogden High? LC: Ogden High School. We didn't have a high school at Liberty. BD: Everyone was a farmer at that time, right? LC: Yes, they were. BD: Do you think that when this railroad was put through the canyon it opened up any other opportunities for employment other than just farming? In other words, could these residents of Ogden Valley seek employment in town and be able to return in the same day? LC: Yes they probably could. BD: Did you see any of this yourself? LC: Not over in Liberty that I ever remember. But I'm sure somebody in Huntsville would because it was from Huntsville that it went and then came back. We'd have to drive seven or eight miles from Liberty to get to the car line. BD: How long did that take you? LC: It would take about an hour to drive from Liberty down to the car line. Lots of times we'd drive there and leave our horse and buggy and ride in on the car rather than to drive the horse on in. We'd do our shopping or whatever we had to do and come back, hitch up our horse and come home. 3 BD: Let's talk about electricity for a minute. When you were born of course there wasn't any electricity in the valley. What did you do for lights in the evening until the electricity came? How did you operate your machinery and things like that? LC: Well as far as machinery goes, we operated with man-power. To sharpen our knives to cut the hay with we used an old grind stone which worked by turning it by hand or by pedaling. Our washing machines were always turned by hand. I can remember it was one of my chores when I was younger to turn the washer back and forth by hand. That's the way it was done. That was quite an improvement from the scrubbing board in earlier days. BD: So about when did you get electricity? LC: Well, the electricity came into Huntsville and Eden prior to when it came over to Liberty. But when it came over to Liberty it was some years later than it came to Huntsville and Eden. It was in the late twenties when it came over to Liberty. BD: So you went clear to the late twenties in Liberty without electricity? LC: Yes, we did have some improvement over the kerosene lamp. I don't know whether we talked about this or not. We talked about lights and power but we had carbide lights that they used to have and then we had gas lights that we thought were real nice; they had a good soft light. I can remember in our home, we had gas lights prior to the electric lights that came in the late twenties, I'd say. The exact years I can't remember, say in the middle twenties. BD: The mid-twenties. We've kind of touched around but haven't really talked about the subject of farming. What kind of advances have you noticed over the years in Liberty? 4 LC: Well there has been improvement in farming. We used to do it all with a team of horses and a plow. At first we just had a hand plow and we'd have two horses for a hand plow. This plow would just turn one way on board. You'd have to walk all day behind the hand plow. Next came the sulky plow, one that you could ride and it only went one way. Then from there they made another sulky plow that was a two way plow. It had two plows that you could plow one way and then turn around and go the other way. This was a great improvement but on this two way plow we had three and when we had three horses there was a place on the tongue to put the side for three horses if you wanted to use it. For two horses you put it in the middle and use it that way. If we had some real hard plowing to do like breaking up Lucerne sometimes we'd put the tongue in the middle and we'd have four horses. We'd string them out, two abreast strung out, or we'd drive them four abreast. When we'd drive them four abreast in was kind of hard on one horse because he'd have to walk out in the soft ground and it was harder on him. So we tried to make it as easy as we could. So when we did that we sort of changed the horse off so one horse wouldn’t have to walk out in the plowed ground all the time. As far as that goes, that's plowing; do you want on harvesting our crops too? BD: Yes, why don't we talk about that? LC: We used to have a binder that would bind the grain. It had a table on it with a canvas and elevators. I never remember cutting grain with a cradle; that was before my day, but I guess they did it. The grain would go up this canvas and there would be packers that would pack in and then make a bundle. When it built up so much pressure it would release and the needle would come around and tie a string around the bundle. This same principle in tying a string around the bundle is on the bailers of today. To get back 5 to the grain again, we would have to harvest grain then we would thrash it with the thrashing machine. The first thrashing machine I saw work was powered by a steam engine. It was quite a thing to see that steam engine. It would take quite a while to set the machine, especially if it wasn't on level ground. If you were on a hill, why it would take quite a while to level the separator on the machine and to get the power of the big steam engine around with the belt, I have seen some of these old horse-drawn or horse-powered thrashing machines but that was a little before my day when they did it with them. Anyway they had a blower. The first thrashing machine that I ever knew anything about didn't have a blower on it, straw just came out and you had to keep it away. Then they had a blower on it and it was a lot easier to use. It would around in a stack. It was quite different from our mode of thrashing today, when the combine will come in with two fourteen-foot and cut your grain and put it in your bin or put it in the truck and haul it to the market all in one process. BD: There is a certain silver mine that is located in the Liberty area. Where is it located exactly? LC: Well, it's located over to the east and north of the valley, Ogden Valley. BD: East and north? LC: East and north. It's just east of Powder Mountain ski resort, up in that area. BD: When did this all get started? LC: This started just before the turn of the century or around the turn of the century when the great mining rush was on all the way around here; in Nevada and all through. They struck silver in this La Plata mine area. 6 BD: That's the name of it, the La Plata? What do you know about it? LC: Well I've been there but at one time it's been told there was a thousand people that lived there. I've been there after it was all over with so to speak. But part of the old hotel was still standing the first time I was there. There are many mine shafts especially one that was there when we were younger, around my early teens. We wanted to find out how deep it was, so we put down over three-hundred feet of rope and it never hit down to the bottom of it so it was down that deep. Down a ways where they had timbered it up it was just a perfect shape. The hole I imagine was around eight feet across the shaft. There was a ladder that went right straight down. No one climbed down the ladder because it was dangerous. I guess they had quite a lot of silver and they hauled it out with teams of horses into Ogden; at first that was the nearest railroad. BD: Do you knew how long the mine was productive? LC: Well, I don't know exactly how many years, but it must have been five or six or maybe ten years that they worked the mine. BD: But no longer than that? LC: I don't think so; I imagine you could go to the record® and find out exactly. BD: When you were over there visiting this place it was in your early teens, right? LC: That's right. That's the first time I was there; I've been there several times since. BD: That was when they’d already closed the place down; it wasn't even working at that time? LC: No they weren't working it at all. Over this one mine shaft that looked to me like the most important one, there was still a cover over it. They had worked it with a mule. 7 They'd go around the outside, you know, to bring the buckets up. The cover was still there and the old mule trail was still there where the mules had walked around it inside of this cover. They had this cover over there because they worked it in the winter so the mule wouldn't have to be out in the cold all the time. The old general store was still pretty well there the first time I was there. There are not buildings at all there now. The shaft is still there but the evidence is pretty well wiped out. There were over one thousand people there at one time. BD: So it was a pretty sizeable town? LC: Yes, President David 0. McKay when he was a young man hauled mail from Huntsville into the camp. He made a trip once a day or maybe twice a week. That was his job. BD: Are there any other mines in the Liberty area? LC: Well I can remember going to several mines. One is the Blue Bell mine. That's just north and west of this Powder Mountain area. It was copper. The copper mined there was higher test than the Bingham mine but there wasn't near as much there. I can remember them bringing ore out of that mine when I was small; say nine or ten years old. It's all closed up now. The last time I was there, I've been there several times, there was evidence of some of the power equipment they had. They had a steam engine in there to run the power to bring the ore up out of the shafts. BD: Any others? LC: There was a mine over in Liberty, the Thimbleberry they called it. It was a graphite mine. There was an onyx mine east and north (due north of Liberty town). They worked that quite a bit. It's still in existence. It's been pushed down with a bulldozer—it's almost 8 a surface mine now. It was a shaft. There are several different places around through the mountains where they've tried to find a rich place, but those are the ones I know anything about. BD: If you recall, we talked about land and land development in the Ogden Valley. What do you think the dam had to do with the development of land there? Did the storing up of water over there help you farmers in Ogden Valley, or didn't it? LC: As far as the water's concerned, we don't get any water out of there to irrigate. I can remember when it was talked about. When they first talked about building a dam in the valley, they were to have it up South Fork, up at Magpie. There is evidence of temporary diggings and trying to see if they had bedrock in effort to build the dam, still there in Magpie. But that sort of fell through. Then in the early thirties, they talked about putting a dam in Pine View. Where the Pine View Dam is there was a little dam. Their water was dammed off and brought down to 12 Street where they generated electricity for Ogden City. The old pipe line is still there. They still use that pipe line for the water. BD: Is that the old wooden one? LC: Yes. When they talked about the land it would take it was some of the most fertile land in the valley, the lowlands. It was land up on the South Fork and up the North Fork River, and the Middle Fork River, and also up Gertson country. There were quite a lot of people who had their feelings about taking their lands. But through the Bureau of Reclamation and the government they decided they needed water for the city of Ogden, which they really I guess did. So it was approved and they built a dam there. They built it up so high then later on they raised it to another level. After raising to this other level, it stored a lot more water. As far as the Dam's concerned, there's more water, enough 9 to fill it two or three times that runs on past. They've developed the Bay area out here to transfer the water out there and back. As far as our area we didn't get anything out of it as far as irrigating our ground. They have built another dam up at Causey in the recent years and now the people in the lower valley (it doesn't get up as far as Liberty but it gets up towards the middle part of Eden) can get water out of that. It's a benefit to these people then on their farms. But the big attraction of Pine View Dam is the boating and recreation, I think. Did you want to talk about that? BD: Yes, let's shift to that. We talked a little bit about recreation in general. What effect do you think the dam has had on recreation and the influx of people in the valley? LC: I think that's one of the big factors in bringing more people into the valley is recreation, not only the dam and the boating in the summer but the fishing. A year or two ago they drained the dam and took all the trash fish out so they would have better fishing there. I'm sure it's made better fishing for the people who like to fish. It's a favorite spot of many who like to fish. Not only do they boat on it but they fish on it. They do their water skiing on it. It's quite a place. I've noticed though since that body of water's there, we've noticed more of a dampness in the valley than we did before; we get more dew because of that body of water there. I'm sure that we get more dew and dampness than we used to have in the valley. BD: How about the way things are up there as far as subdivisions are concerned? Every time I drive through that area I see a new house or two going up. Nordic Valley's probably the biggest single area. What about that? Do you think the dam's had some influence on that? 10 LC: Well, probably. I think it's related to several things. Property owners could see larger cities wanting to move away from the city and get into a place where it's cool. It's a cool valley with cool nights. The sun goes down early; there are mountains all around. We have a sort of a twilight there that they don't get in the lower valley. I think that's one reason why. And I'm sure the dam had reference to it. Then I think also the ski. Now we've had Snow Basin for quite some time. And now we've got a ski area in Nordic Valley. They have a place there with two lifts; they're not too long--one lift for the beginners. I think that's good for the skiing. They like that. Also they have a golf course there at Nordic Valley and they play a lot of golf there. They also have a ski life over y at the Powder Mountain. That’s over on the north side of the valley over towards the area we first talked about, the La Plata area in that place. In that area they have just started but in talking to people that go there it's more of a secluded spot. I think really the skiers, in asking them, they would rather go there because they're almost way from everything. You can't see no civilization, so to speak. It's just like they go away and I think that's what people like to do; when they want to get away from the city, they want to get entirely away. They have a big golf course right underneath Powder Mountain— that Patio Springs Golf Course. It's one of the largest golf courses I guess there is in Utah. They've extended it to a place where it's quite fantastic as far as golf is concerned. I think those things have a tendency to bring people into the valley. Now we have Nordic Valley—not only do they ski there but Nordic Valley within itself is between 700 and 800 acres of ground. BD: So you think that because of the recreational possibilities of the valley that that is one of the reasons for the rise in population? 11 LC: I kind of think so; and then the living conditions in the summer time and then in the winter time if you like a lot of snow. There is a lot of snow there, more snow than you can imagine—the difference between the lower valley here and in Ogden Valley. As I said, there are a lot of people moving in there just to have a summer home there in Nordic Valley. I used to when I was a kid go up in there on horses and ride around through the bushes and brush and that and chase each other around. Now the last time I was there I counted close to a hundred homes. That's quite a development in the last ten to fifteen years. BD: You've been up there for your whole life. How do you feel being a life-long resident about this thing? Would you just as soon have those people up there or would you not? LC: Well, I've got sort of mixed emotions about it. I think that I've been a defender sort of our little town of Liberty, a builder of the town. These people coming in are going to change it just like it's changed other places. I can't say that I'm against progress, but you sort of have mixed emotions about those things. In 1900, if you look at the records, we had a population of 300 people just in Liberty; and in 1944, the time I was made Bishop there we had a population of 167 people, 37 families. Now we have more people. If it's a good thing or a bad thing I hate to say. It's a good thing for the people that are coming in there for sure. I think it's a nice thing. People's got to get out and we've got to progress. BD: What adverse effects do you think it will have in the town itself? LC: Well, the town will be changed. I don't think there will be any adversities to it. The town will be changed; it won't be out little town any more. It will be a bigger place. I have relatives here in North Ogden and they had mixed emotions about how North Ogden had grown. They've said to me how it isn't North Ogden anymore. I go out there and I 12 used to know everybody in North Ogden. But now I don't even know where everybody lives anymore, it's built up so. Now as far as building up the place, not only is it in Nordic Valley but also in Patio Springs. They've now zoned the place to build a big condominium there. BD: How about the roads in the valley? We’ve talked about the one in the canyon. How about the rest, have they improved a lot? Do you think they are better? LC: Well, sure for the better. Some of the roads earlier in the valley especially over in Liberty and all through the valley were in poor shape. They weren't graded up. They were quite crooked, weren't straight, and went around the different places like a cow trail more or less. But now they've straightened them up. They've improved them; they've graded them up. They've oiled all the roads or most all roads are graded. As I mentioned before, the road in Ogden Canyon is paved. Now we have a road over in North Ogden Canyon that was made in the early thirties. Now it's all oiled. And it's maintained the biggest part of the winter. It's open now. It was closed for two or three weeks during the winter, but it's open again now. And we have a lot of improvement on the roads. They're built higher so that they're passable. You might say that the mode of travel in the winter time was that we used to travel in a sleigh with horses. Sometimes in the spring of the year you couldn't get along with a sleigh because the road would get built way up high and then the horses couldn't get along when the snow got soft. It was quite amusing if you had a good team. Sometimes you'd be traveling along and snow would be down a foot but the road would still be a foot higher than the snow because it would be built up. The horses still traveled right along those little rows. 13 BD: Do you think you get the service for keeping the roads up? Bishop Clark mentioned in the program dedicating the chapel that the snow hadn't been getting up that way. LC: Well, when we plowed the roads at first we used teams on these snow plows. That's quite a lot of difference between the big machines that they have today. We had a snow plow that we used in Liberty. They also had one in Eden and one over in Huntsville that they plowed the roads out with. We'd hitch two or three, or maybe six teams on the bigger ones to plow the roads out when it got so deep. But now it's all done with machinery. But as far as the roads being kept open Ogden Canyon and throughout the different towns, I think we have better service than they have anywhere else in Weber County. Because we don't have as many roads to be cleared over in Eden and Liberty like they do in Huntsville. Right in the town of Huntsville, they're in an incorporated town and they have to take care of their own roads. But as for Weber County, we have our roads taken care of real good, I think. BD: There is a movement going on right now in the valley in Liberty to tear down the chapel. You were instrumental in building the chapel being the bishop when it was dedicated. What do you think about that? LC: Well, I've had really mixed emotions on that situation. I was bishop at the time that the chapel was built and dedicated and I have had mixed emotions about them tearing it down; it isn't twenty years old yet. People think that because of the development of the valley especially over in Liberty and Eden, that and other towns that we should go in and build a new one so that there would be more room. BD: Now who is behind all this effort to get the chapel torn down? Is it the people who have been life-long residents or part of the influx of new people? 14 LC: Well, it's the people that are moving in that are pushing it. The older people, when we talk to them aren't in favor of it. They realize that if we don't have our chapel and we move down to Eden, we aren't going to have Liberty like we used to have; it's going to be different. We'd still have a Liberty ward, but as far as having our chapel that we've had for so many years. This chapel that we dedicated will be twenty years old this coming December. It was built on to the building that was built sixty-five years ago. I might mention here that the brick that was used to build that chapel was made in Liberty sixty-five years ago. Not only did they make brick for the chapel but also for two homes that are standing today. I personally wonder about tearing it down because we will have to go to Eden, and I just wonder how it is going to turn out. One of the things I guess that makes me wonder more than any other thing is that at the time that I was bishop and we were told to build a new chapel by the stake presidency or to do something different; we really needed it, it was far over due to have something better to meet in. We did not have any of the modern conveniences what so ever in our building, it dated back sixty-five years. So at the time that it looked like we would have enough money to start the stake presidency called the--bishopric in and wanted to know if it would be better to build in Eden. At that time we felt that it probably would be better. President McKay was head of the church then so we made an appointment with him. We asked him right out rather or not we should go ahead. I will never forget going into his office with the other members of the bishopric with me. His answer was that we should have a Liberty; let us always have a Liberty. We came back with this information and from there on there was no question on whether or not we should build. We went right ahead and built a fine place there for the people that were there at the time. There were thirty- 15 seven families and we spent eighty thousand dollars. At that time the church paid fifty percent. This showed about a thousand dollars per family, in a small farming community. This was really good for back then, I think. BD: You were made bishop back in 1944, is that right? LC: Yes, that is right. BD: Now, at that time when you as a ward began to have thoughts on building the chapel. You decided to build onto the old building correct? LC: That is correct. BD: There was not any opposition from the older folks in the ward; they realized the need for a new chapel right? LC: Yes, as previously stated it was realized we needed something new--something better. In as much as we received the information from the General Authorities to go ahead with our plan. The people were behind the project 100 percent. BD: If they tear down the building which obviously has some historical value as well as just plain sentimental value with the original residents of the town, what kind of affect do you think this is going to have? LC: Well, in all fairness to everything I think it is going to have quite an effect on people, especially the older people of the town. People have already mentioned to me, people who were in the ward when I was bishop people who have moved away that they feel real bad about tearing it down. They have real mixed emotions about it because one thing is the sentimental values but there are also the material values: the price of the building and the structural part of the building. It was built good, it was built to last more 16 than twenty years. At the time we built it the architect told us how we could build onto it in the course if we had more membership. BD: In other words there were plans made or at least there is some kind of a plan whereby you can build onto the chapel and you do not need to tear it down. LC: That was the architect's plan and he said how we could build classrooms on the east side and also a recreation or bigger hall that they could play basketball on the south end of it, BD: So in summary, do you think that all this influx of people into Liberty has had a good affect or a bad affect if you look at it in the light of the chapel controversy? LC: I might say that I'm older and probably as far as the town is concerned it is going to have a bad effect. I guess we will just have to wait and see. I like progress but sometimes I would like to see things remain. In our valley there have been several things happen that I have not been too enthused about. One thing was about the ski resort south of us, in Nordic Valley. They went right up onto the mountain with a bulldozer and cleared off all the foliage, and for years we have been trying to get it back for a water shed. In previous years along in the early thirties we, through the Chamber of Commerce of Ogden , got money to take the sheep and everything off the range to the north and west of us to preserve our water shed. So I have mixed emotions about people coming in and disturbing the vegetation and especially causing erosion that might corrupt the water shed and also corrupt the scenery and the town within itself. BD: Thank you. 17