Oral History Program Norberto Ramos Interviewed by Kathryn MacKay 15 March & 8 April 2011 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Norberto Ramos Interviewed by Kathryn MacKay 15 March & 8 April 2011 Copyright © 2026 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber and Davis County Community Oral History Collection includes interviews conducted by Weber State University faculty, staff and students, and other members of the community. The interviews cover various topics including city government, diversity, personal everyday life experiences and other recollections regarding the history of the Weber and Davis County areas. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Ramos, Norberto, an oral history by Kathryn MacKay, 15 March & 8 April 2011, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections & University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Norberto Ramos conducted at his home by Kathryn MacKay on March 15 and April 8, 2011. Norberto discusses his experiences serving in World War II and the Korean War, and the veterans’ organizations and programs he was involved in afterward. He also talks about his involvement in the Utah Office of Veterans Affairs and the assistance they offered veterans. Note: Active listening, transitions in dialogue (such as “um,” “so,” “you know,” etc.), and false starts in conversations are not included in transcription for ease of reading. All additions to transcript noted with brackets. KM: Today is March 15, 2011. I’m Kathryn MacKay and I’m here with Robert Ramos, “Bob,” and we are in his home on Coachman Way. I wonder, Mr. Ramos, if you would give me your full name, please, and where and when were you born? NR: Okay. My full name is Norberto Tafoya Ramos. KM: Where were you born? NR: I was born in Georgetown, Texas, June 6, 1925, which makes me 85 years old. KM: Excellent. What were your parents’ names? NR: My father’s name was Frank Ramos, and my mother’s name was Theodora Ramos. KM: What did your father do for a living? What did your parents do for a living? NR: My father—we lived in Texas—he worked for the railroad. According to my mother, he often said the work was too hard. [He] developed stomach cancer, so he eventually died in March 1935. KM: So, when you were still young? 1 NR: I was 10 years old, the oldest of five children. He died at age 37 because of stomach cancer, and at that time they didn’t have the resource, the tech. They couldn’t tell. It was years and years ago, and my mother went to [unintelligible]. KM: How did you manage after your father died? Did she have family to help? NR: No. ‘Course, my mother was unskilled. She didn’t have any skills, so she took in washing, took in house cleaning, and then she took me out of school to go to work. At age 10 I started working in a grocery store, putting out groceries and cans and food on the shelves, and then eventually he put me accepting the money, returning change at the store. To me, that was something that I could [do], because my pride in keeping that store clean with all that. KM: He really trusted you. NR: Yes. KM: What was the name of the store? NR: John Edgar Glen. KM: Was the owner of the store? NR: Yes. The name of the store was Glen Grocery Store. Small store, probably from this wall to that wall. KM: Yes, not very big. NR: No [laughs]. KM: Serving a small town? NR: Yes. At the time only 3,000 people lived in town, so it was really a small town. Not only did I work in the grocery store but I delivered newspapers. Got up at 3 in the morning, went in and picked up newspapers, went home, got ready for my 2 delivery by rolling ‘em up, put rubber band around, and put them in the sacks behind me. That was the only income at the time, working at the store. He would give us food, and he paid me 10 cents an hour [laughs]. KM: Wow. NR: I worked eight hours, and sometimes he’d give me a dollar to help. Newspaper, I think it was something like 50 houses, and he would pay me so much too. KM: Did you miss school? NR: Oh yes, yes I did, but I know I just got—I read newspapers. KM: Oh, did you? NR: And I read magazines [laughs]. KM: There we go. NR: That helped. That truly, truly helped me, because an old one of my immediate books and most important books was the dictionary. People would say, “What, you educated yourself?” I’d say, “I did,” and I did. KM: They say reading is the key to everything, that if you can keep reading— NR: Absolutely. My wife is… What do you call it? A bookworm. I read, but not as much as she did, because I’m involved quite a bit with veterans programs and so forth. KM: Did you eventually go back to school? NR: Okay, what happened—because I worked from 10 years of age until I was drafted 1943. October 1943, I was drafted into the Army. I wanted to volunteer 3 when the war came into being, but my mother says, “No, I’m not going to sign you documents for you to go get killed.” I said, “Mom, they come and get me. If you don’t let me volunteer, I’m gonna get drafted.” She said, “They will find something wrong with you and you’ll get rejected.” “Mom, I mean good hell, how long they gonna take me?” Sure enough, [unintelligible] and the [unintelligible] broke her heart. KM: Oh, I’m sure it did. NR: Because it had me and three of my other brothers coming up in age, and that [unintelligible] to get drafted. I went and served stateside, and I served in Europe with the 86th Infantry Division. We fought in Germany at [unintelligible] in the hostilities in Germany May 8, 1945. That brought the whole division back to United States in training groups for the invasion of Japan. It brought us back. The whole division got back to the States towards the end of May, so we trained in Oklahoma for about a month, then they put us aboard ship for the invasion of Japan. During our sailing to the Pacific [unintelligible] they dropped the first bomb, and the whole armada, the whole… what’s it called, flotation… ships… KM: Yes, flotilla. NR: Flotilla anchored in the Pacific to await word from the Department of War, not the Pentagon, announcing it. About two to three days later, they dropped the second one, and that’s when Japan surrendered. But since we were at sea, our assignment was to go to the Philippines to relieve the 37th Infantry Division for 4 them to come home. They had been moved up front for quite a few months, so we relieved them. They came home. We stayed to help the Filipinos, because Japanese in the jungles in the mountains did not believe that Japan had surrendered. It took weeks, sometimes months to get most of them to surrender, repatriated back to their homeland, processed in mode to get them home. The division was there until April 1946 when they sent us all back, and we got sent back to our original states, so I was sent to San Antonio for discharge. KM: I can only suspect that of course you would learn how to use various weapons, etcetera, but were you trained for specific tasks that you can remember? NR: Yes. When I got drafted, I got assigned to Camp Grant, Rockford, Illinois and I got trained as a combat medic. Okay? Medics that give aid in the battlefield. Eighteen weeks of nothing but medical training. How to give shots, how to dress a wound, I mean, all of this. In 1945, early part of ’45, the whole division was sent to Germany during the Battle of the Bulge. The Department of War ordered for our division to come and help, but by the time we got there the Battle of the Bulge was over, but we got into the thickness of [unintelligible] Belgium into Austria. As I mentioned, for my boot camp I went from there to the Pacific, so I was trained as a medic, but during the Battle of the Bulge they needed more troops on the ground. Now, I was in France then, so for two weeks, or maybe a week, they had us rigorous training in infantry tactics and so forth. That’s how I got into the infantry. KM: How about in the Philippines? Did you stay in the infantry then, when you went to the Philippines? 5 NR: [Speaks at the same time] Yes. KM: Or did you back to being a medic? NR: No. I got assigned to help the [unintelligible] the Japanese home. So, came home, got discharged in Texas. When you got discharged like this, you had to remain in the Reserves for eight years, because they didn’t know… KM: What was going to happen. NR: Yeah. KM: Sure. NR: Really. I went home and I got I enrolled at the University of Houston to go to college, because the Army helped me get my GED. So, I got my GED and came home and went to University of Houston. I wasn’t in school maybe six months then Korea broke out, so the return unit medical unit that I was in got recalled. So, here I go again, not drafted but recalled. The Air Force had just come into being on its own Department of the Air Force. This was 1947, and I think it was around June, summer kind of thing, so I got into the Air Force. They sent me to Lackland Air Force Base for training in the Air Force there, tactics and so forth. From there, that part in the Air Force, I made staff sergeant. Because of my eyes I couldn’t get into flying, so they sent me to a military police school. Some of the instructors were FBI agents, and some state and some county/city policemen taught the GIs about law enforcement. I stayed in law enforcement in the Air Force from ‘51 to 1970 when I got released finally with 22.8 active duty and five years in Reserves for a total of 28 years. Then my assignments were Newfoundland, Okinawa, where we spent 6 most of our time. Did tours there from four to five years. Every four years, my wife and the kids—we had four girls. We came back for discharge in San Antonio again and back to civilian life. KM: I want to know how you met your wife? NR: I was stationed in Del Rio, Texas at Laughlin Air Force Base. She had just had gotten divorced and she had 2 little girls. I came to there, waited, and we finally got married. From Laughlin Air Force Base, I go Sheppard Air Force Base in Wichita Falls, and from there we got shipped to Japan. My last tour, we came back to Japan, to Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio. That’s kind of—well, it’s the only basic training base in the Air Force, Lackland. Big, big base. Came back to Lackland, I served about a year, then I got assigned to Hill Air Force Base today, March 15, 1967. KM: Wow, an auspicious day. NR: I reported to Hill Air Force Base. Again, with my police work and so forth, investigations, traffic, shootings, whatever here at Hill Air Force Base. I retired in 1970, August, from the military. KM: Tell me your wife’s name and tell me your daughters’ names so that I have it on the record? NR: Okay, my wife’s—my kids’ mother’s name was Peggy Ferron, and she was from Arizona. She had the two kids, Kirby Ann Ferron and then—wait, not Ferron. My mind sometimes blocks… Let me see, her maiden name was Ferron… KM: That’s alright. Tell me their first names, if that’s easier. 7 NR: Okay, Kirby Ann and Connie Jo, J-O, were the two girls. Then, while we were stationed at Laughlin in Del Rio, we had our first child. Her name was Robin Leah, L-E-A-H, often pronounced as Lee, but the correct pronunciation is Leah. She was born there. Then we came to Sheppard Air Force Base and then to Japan, and that’s where my other girl was born, Kimberly Patricia. Before my marriage to Peggy, I was married to Mabel—I forgot her maiden name, it’s been so long—Ramos. We had one girl, and her name was named after my grandmother, not my wife, and her side of the family was Christina. KM: Oh, that’s a lovely name. NR: So, her name was Christina. KM: You’ve been surrounded by women [laughs]. NR: Yes, I’ve been. I didn’t have any boys, and then people that knew us would call my family Ramos’ harem [laughs]. It was a good wife, good kids. ‘Course, all married now. My first wife passed away, and my second wife was killed in an auto accident. During this time and so forth when I got discharged, I went to work for the State—oh wait, am I getting ahead of the…? KM No, I’m just about to ask you that question, but I want to ask you one question before that, and that is did you enjoy working at Hill Air Force Base? Was that a good situation for you? NR: I was stationed there—when you say “worked,” I was stationed. KM: I’m not using proper words—stationed. Did you like that? 8 NR: I enjoyed—At first, when I was at San Antonio, I asked the personnel branch, “Where is Utah?” We didn’t check into here that much. They told me, “Well it’s in this part, and you’re surrounded by Colorado, Nevada, Idaho and so forth.” But the only thing I could think about then was the cold weather. We came here in March [unintelligible] mountains, rain, and snow, and so forth. I thought, “Okay, this is it. You’re gonna have to do the best you can,” and we did. Enjoyed it very much. When I first got here, I was put in charge of the ID section. Weapons on base, personal weapon kind of thing, vehicle registration, that type of thing. Everything for control that segment at Hill Air Force Base. I was here from March ‘67 until August 1970. KM: But you then decided to stay? After your retirement you decided to stay in this area? NR: Yes. In three years, I got used to the four seasons. We had got used to the cold. The kids went to Clearfield and Layton schools, and they graduated from here. Then they got married and went to better lives, so to speak. KM: Who recruited you to work for the State? Let’s remind ourselves the agency. If you will tell me the agency that you worked for? NR: Okay, the agency was called Public Service Careers, and we came under Department of Human Services, I think. Yeah, so when… Let’s see, I’m trying to be back on track… 9 KM: Sure, that’s fine. Think about how you found that job. Did somebody recruit you, or look for it on your own? NR: I found it on my own—oh wait, when I got first released, we lived in Layton. Oh, went to work for Thiokol Operations in the… just a minute… oh, this disadvantaged youth that— KM: Oh yes, Job Corps? NR: Job Corps. I went to work for Job Corps, but Thiokol was the contractor to train. I was there. This was my first civilian job at first— KM: Well, except for the grocery store though [laughs]. NR: Oh yeah, before—yeah. KM: But your first civilian job as an adult. NR: Right. Do you want to hear what [unintelligible] from I worked in so many things, let me tell you. Besides the store, besides Western Union delivering tele, besides newspaper delivery, I worked in the cotton fields. KM: That’s hard work. NR: Picking cotton [is] hard, hard work, especially 12 [o’clock], 1 o’clock, 2 o’clock when that sun’s just beating down on you. Pick cotton, and I trimmed trees. We cut the little ones. Ten cents an hour, 10-hour days. We cut the small ones to give sunlight to the big ones. I done that kind of work. The family that we were close to in Texas would come to Utah, Montana, Washington State for work in the beet fields. KM: The sugar beets? 10 NR: Yes. I worked in the beet [fields], then we went to Washington to the fruit harvest and back to home again, growing up. After I got discharged, like I say, I went to the University of Houston. Didn’t graduate—I was just well trying to find where I could fit. Then went to the shipyards in Houston, loading ships, unloading ships. I went to work for the railroad. Anything to have income while I was going to school, but then, I got like I say, [unintelligible] so I’ve done all kinds of work. KM: So, you’ve had—? NR: Good experience. KM: Good. NR: Good experience, working experience. Working with people well that were over me and taught me how to do good things, how to do this in various stages of my life. I had good teachers, good instructors. KM: Well, let’s get back to the 1970s. So, you went to work? NR: I was traveling with the Job Corps, then for the first time in my life I got laid off. What a traumatic experience, because now what? I had four kids that I had to provide for, plus family. Like I said, from Job Corps, somebody told me they had an opening they were looking for in the Public Service Careers. I went and filed an application, and because of my background into all of the stuff that got done, I got hired, and it was a program to help the disadvantaged with typing, counseling, whatever. KM: Sure, job skills. NR: Job skills. Well, see, [unintelligible] so that’s where I landed at. Vietnam War was going on full blast. I don’t know—okay, well I’ll tell you how the Public Service 11 Careers, somebody in there mentioned something: “The Governor has indicated that we should come up with some programs to help the Vietnam veterans with jobs and schooling and so forth.” At first, my boss appointed a young man probably in his early 20s to go out and see what they could do. Things didn’t go well for him or with him, so my boss says, “Bob, I want to talk to you. Since you recently got released from the service and you’ve got 22 years and whatever, I want you to take over this project for veterans.” Okay. Take that. Made me so good to feel that, my first into this job. Got into—do you…? I have something. Let me show you my trophy room. Turn this off— [Recording stops] [Recording resumes] KM: All right. We’ve been taking a quick break, but we’re back to the interview, and you’re talking about how you got involved in working with Vietnam veterans as part of your work for the State in Human Services. I think you can feel justly proud that they recognized your abilities but also your experience, so it’s not surprising they would ask you to go and work with these returning veterans. So, you worked mostly in the Layton area because that’s where you were living, is that right? NR: That was my start. To see what would happen with the ideas I had in my head, the first thing I done, I went to Young Chevrolet Company in Layton, who are still there, and I asked them if I couldn’t use his display board in the building for a veterans job fair. The very first. 12 KM: Good idea. NR: There was a national job for veterans program, and that’s where I had read about it. Thought, “Okay, let me start with this.” Mr. Young says, “Whatever you want.” He took all of his cars out of display, we set up table, and we invited employers to come to there. Then we asked the veterans to come and talk to the person. Not bragging—well, it is bragging—we had a beautiful turnout. We were close to Freeport Center because we were close to Layton, Kaysville, all those little towns between Ogden. The veterans that had been released from the service came, so we had a beautiful turnout. When I saw that, I thought, “Okay, this is one of the things I want to do.” The next, there was a restaurant in Layton. He was a Japanese gentleman, first name was Kinat… I think his last name was Nakatishi, something like that. He had a popular restaurant, and it was called Kin’s Dining or whatever. I got a hold of the mayor of the Layton, Lewis Shields, L-E-W-I-S. He was the mayor of Layton, so went to him [asking] if I could get his support and have support from the mayor and the council all the way through. The next thing we done was to make certificates to give to the veterans, and then with the mayor’s help and counsel we started inviting the veterans to a reception. Kin says, “You know, you can use my facility. Nice, big banquet room.” So, with the mayor’s support and so forth, I forgot when we had the first, but it was encouraging. A lot of veterans showed up. We gave them certificates. The mayor got up and 13 thanked them for their service. So first, a job fair, second, appreciation night kind of thing. It was successful, and I thought, “Hey, I’m doing such good.” KM: [Laughs] You’re on a roll. NR: I did, because of the turnout. I thought, “Good. We didn’t waste time. We helped those kids and so forth.” Then we would have this monthly, 1970, 1971, something like this. From that activity, I had two more job fairs. This time—because the first we didn’t have enough room and it felt kind of cramped—I got a hold of the school principal at Layton High School for one of their big rooms, and again, good turnout. You know, just like before. Then three months later, another job fair. I had three that were very encouraging and helpful to the kids coming back. Then from that activity, which went for about two to three years, we got a letter from the National Job Service, whatever their term, what’s that National Jobs of Veterans kind of thing? Then let’s see, what… I don’t know the person’s name that submitted a bill to create a Utah Veterans Office or something, because during that early 70s, we had problems with them. Not enough employment, that sort of thing. KM: So, the State Legislature is creating a Utah Office of Veterans Affairs? NR: Utah Office of Veterans Affairs. KM: Okay. Oh, and this this is something that you have written about, that effort. NR: Yeah. KM: Excellent. 14 NR: Okay, what happened when the Utah Office of Veterans Affairs—not the Department of Veterans Affairs that we have now; this was just the Office of Veterans Affairs. We had the secretary, the supervisor, kind of director of activity, and two outreach persons. I took the north part from Salt Lake [unintelligible] and the other gentleman took the south portion. They kind of made this letter. KM: What I’m looking at in your collection is a letter signed by Governor Rampton that essentially is an introduction for you. Introduces Norberto Ramos, who is acting as veterans service representative for the Governor’s task force on veterans’ employment. Mr. Ramos, I am actually going to have to leave for another appointment, but I’m going to ask you one question, and then I’m going to ask you if I can make another appointment with you to continue your interview? NR: Okay. KM: When you were first developing this job fair and then the appreciation dinner, how did you find the veterans? What kind of a network did you use? How did you locate people in order to invite them to these events? Do you remember how you did that? NR: We didn’t go to the State. Most of it was the media— KM: [Speaks at the same time] Aha, so word of mouth just getting the publicity out. NR: —and word of mouth. KM: Wow. NR: I would talk to say one veteran and I’d [say], “Tell your friends that you know.” KM: Yeah, so very grassroots then. 15 NR: It just makes me feel so proud that this happened. But I had the backing of the Governor and the veterans organization, VFW, American Legion, the AV, American Veterans, all this outfit, because I joined all of them. When we had meetings at the VFW, American Legion and so forth, get the word out, get the word out. Word of mouth. KM: That’s the way to do it. NR: So, that’s how we started. KM: Sure, use other organizations then to build on. Absolutely. That’s a good idea. NR: Listen, when you come back to the next appointment, let’s start with— KM: That’s an excellent idea, let’s start with this. NR: Yeah, go back to this. KM: Good, I agree. Day Two: 8 April 2011 KM: I’m Kathryn MacKay and I’m here April 8 with Mr. Ramos at his home in Riverdale. We are continuing our conversation from a previous interview, really having Mr. Ramos talk about his life, his career. We’re going to focus on the 1970s with his involvement in the State Veterans Affairs Office. Mr. Ramos, thank you so much for agreeing to this second interview, I really appreciate it. NR: My pleasure. KM: Let’s talk about the formation of this agency. What do you think encouraged or was the instigation for the State to create such an agency? NR: This was during the Vietnam War. I’ll go back and do this justice, because my tremor. Governor Calvin Rampton was the governor during the early 70s, and his 16 desire was to make sure that returning Vietnam veterans to Utah would be knowledgeable as to the benefits due them under the GI bill. In the early 70s, either ‘71 or ’72, I was told to create some programs for returning veterans. The governor had told me, he says, “Go ahead and see what you can do these types of programs, but I don’t have any money to help you with, so you’re on your own. See what you can come up with,” and so forth. I says, “Well, thanks.” I’d gotten word that Mr. Maurice Warshaw, the founder of Grand Central Stores in Utah, might be a source to help me with some funds. I called Mr. Warshaw and told him what Governor Rampton wanted from me to do. I says, “Well sir, I come to you bended knee for some funds so I can do some advertising.” He says, “Okay, I’ll tell you what. Why don’t you come to my home? I live at Hotel Utah.” I says, “Okay sir, give me a time.” He says, “How about tomorrow morning?” I says, “Okay, I’ll come down and see you.” I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t know him. I started thinking what sort of an approach can I do to see if he can help. The next morning, I came to his home knocked on the door, and he answered the door right away. Right away, that very instant when I saw him, I felt at ease. I felt at ease because he was so nice to me. He said, “Come in, come in. I’m just getting ready to have some breakfast. I want you to join me.” I says, “Okay, sir.” 17 So, we sat at the table, and a maid came up. He says, “What would you like to eat?” I thought, “I don’t know, just simple breakfast.” He turned to the maid, looked at him, says “Bring this gentleman some eggs, bring him some toast, bring him some coffee, bring him some pancakes.” He looked at me and he says, “How’s that sound?” I says, “It sounds good, sir.” So, the maid left [unintelligible] but at the time I was talking to Mr. Warshaw. I told him, I says, “Sir, the governor has instructed me,” and I told him what I just said. He says, “Okay, tell you what let’s do. After breakfast I’ll call the governor and we’ll go down.” I says, “Okay sir, fine.” We ate breakfast, got finished, and he called the governor’s office. Well, being Mr. Warshaw, he got through to the governor right away with no problem. He said, “Calvin, me and a gentleman here want to come and talk to you.” I think, if I remember correctly, the governor says, “What about?” He said, “The returning Vietnam veterans.” He says, “Okay, come on down. I’m not too busy right now, so come on down.” So, Mr. Warshaw called his chauffer and told us where to pick us up, and he picked us up and drove to the capitol, which was only maybe 10 minutes 18 away from Hotel Utah. We got to the capitol, we walked to the governor’s office, and then an aide, secretary, told us, “Governor Rampton is waiting for you two.” We walked into his office, and the first thing that Mr. Warshaw said to Governor Rampton, says, “Calvin, do you have your undergarments on?” Now, I hadn’t been in the state too long. I had been here maybe three years, so that sounded strange to me, undergarments. I thought, “Well, there’s got to be some sort of underwear or something.” [Laughs] Governor Rampton replied, says, “It’s none of your business. Sit down and be quiet.” All this time, I’m standing thinking, “What a beautiful greeting you two, between two old friends.” So, we sat down, and Mr. Warshaw told the governor about what we had discussed at the hotel. Governor Rampton proceeded to tell him what I just mentioned: his desire was to help the veterans find jobs. He emphasized jobs and then what other benefits are due, like health, all those things. Governor Rampton told him, “The only thing is that I don’t have money for Mr. Ramos to proceed.” Mr. Warshaw says, “Don’t worry about that. I’ll go and give whatever he needs,” referring to me. He says, “When I get back to my office, I’ll call my people. Mr. Ramos, don’t worry about money. I would like to help, and I know I can help with some funds.” That took maybe 10 or 15 minutes, the meeting. We left, went back to his hotel, and he called his secretary or whatever and told me where to go to meet 19 some of these people. He told him, he says, “Whatever he needs, give him this help.” Well, of course most of it was money. The other thing that Grand Central had was machines that could make advertising, all kinds of advertising for his stores. This is what I needed right away was some posters to take to post offices, take to city, county and state offices throughout the state of Utah. What I had to do, I went back to my office and I told my supervisor what had taken place. He couldn’t believe I had been to the governor’s office with Mr. Warshaw. He said, “You got Mr. Warshaw to help?” I said, “Yes, and he said ‘Tell me what you want.’” “Really?” “Yes.” He says, “You know what, I’m gonna have a meeting with the staff in about two hours, and I want you to come in and tell them what you’ve done. This is unbelievable.” He had the meeting. He told the staff what I had done. I was so proud of what I had done. He tells his staff, “Now, I want you guys to go out and beat the bushes and come back with what Ramos has come up with.” Anyway, the meeting was over. Made signs, and when we got the signs, they’d send the staff to help me with Southern Utah and then took care of Northern Utah from Salt Lake to Tremonton. We put posters in every government building. Weeks after that, the plan was to have job fairs. I think I told you at the last meeting that we came to Layton because I lived in Layton. Came to Layton, went to Mayor [Lewis Shields], who was the mayor, and asked him for help 20 again, no problem. He says, “Great, I’ll be glad to help.” The first job fair was held at Young Chevrolet. He took cars out of his… what you call it at the time? KM: Showroom. NR: Showroom, yes showroom. Took all the cars out, and he said, “You can use whatever you need. If you need more room, tell me.” I says, “No, I think it’s enough.” Then my next step was to visit employers. Davis County and Weber County have a job fair, and have them come in Young Chevrolet, set up tables, chairs, but we had that whole showroom full of employers, something like 40 of ‘em. KM: That’s a lot. NR: This started about 10 o’clock in the morning and went until about 2 o’clock in the afternoon. There was a good mix of veterans coming in looking for work, and the employers offered them whatever opening they had. I don’t remember the exact number of veterans what was hired the few days after the job fair, but there were some that were hired, so I thought, “Good, this shows some promise.” About a month later, I came back again for another job fair, and Layton High School offered their… KM: Auditorium, or the basketball area maybe? NR: No, the front of the school that you come in. It’s kind of a showroom, but it’s a big area where the kids congregate and so forth, so it was a little bigger than Young Chevrolet. That’s where I had my second job fair, and in no time, Layton got national recognition because of the job fairs. What I’m trying to do here is try to find that national job service that Layton got recognition for, if I have it here. This 21 is about my volunteer stuff. Anyway, there was a national office that wrote to the mayor congratulating them. KM: Layton City felt very good about this whole program then? NR: You know what, Kathryn, every time I talked to someone that could help, they were ready to help. “Just tell me what you need and you can have whatever you need.” KM: That’s wonderful. NR: It was, especially when the Vietnam veterans came back. They didn’t have too much recognition because of the war and so forth. I had the second one, and I had the third one, and it was all positive. I still had Mr. Warshaw ready to help. There was a restaurant in Layton called Kin’s Restaurant, a very nice restaurant. The owner was a Japanese gentleman. His first name was Kenneth… I’m not too sure about his last name, but he had an area where they could have banquets, meetings, and so forth, so he told me, “You can have this room.” The next step was to have veterans’ recognition as they came home looking for school, jobs and so forth. The mayor came to me and says, “Let’s have recognition night,” or something like that. We invited the local veterans that were discharged, invited them to Kin’s Restaurant for dinner, and the staff came out with… What do you call it…? KM: Plaques? Or certificates? NR: A certificate for their service and so forth. After dinner, we got to introduce the veterans to whoever was there. At that time, the Lieutenant Governor… KM: Oh, you’re getting me too. I can’t think of who it is. 22 NR: Under Rampton. KM: We can look it up. NR: Yeah. He came as the state representative. Worked beautifully. He introduced the veterans, handed them out certificates. Then about a month later, had another one, and then some more, because different veterans were coming home and we just wanted to introduce them briefly. They would tell what they done, where they served, and so forth. Just everything fell into place. From there, let’s see… We’ve gone through this. KM: I’m going to ask you a question while you’re thinking about this. Where was the state office located? The Utah State Office of Veteran Affairs, where was it located? Where were your offices? NR: Oh, it was on 7th Avenue. KM: In Salt Lake? NR: In Salt Lake. The office name was Public Service Careers. That program was to help disadvantaged women and men, the women training to administer, type, take shorthand. At that time, we didn’t have all the high-tech stuff. Public Service Careers came under the Department of Human Services. I was there to go out and have disadvantaged people sign up for this program until my boss told me about trying to do something for the veterans. KM: Had you met Governor Rampton previously? What was your connection with Governor Rampton when he asked you to set up this program? 23 NR: I was with the VFW, American Legion, and the veterans organizations were also interested in helping the veterans. We all gathered at a meeting, and this is where this took place. KM: Oh yes, the photograph with Governor Rampton. He’s signing what? NR: This. KM: Oh, I see, he’s signing this letter. In fact, this letter serves to introduce so-and-so. It’s a letter that then you were able to hand to someone to say that you had his support and his approval. NR: Right. KM: “I request Mr. Ramos be given every possible consideration and support.” Excellent, excellent. Dated November 5, 1971. NR: Yes. As I mentioned, started early 70s, ’71, ’72. There, a gentleman named Dale Matson, he was the representative of the U.S. Department of Labor. His job was also to help veterans just as I did. KM: So, bringing people together for a common purpose? NR: Yeah, but he and I, we became real close with different ideas when we went to work. We visited city, county, state offices with mayors, city councils, whatever government office, and tell them what we were doing so that they would let them talk to another and say, “Yeah, we had a job fair here. We had recognition night.” But they didn’t know anything about it, so we went and contacted all these people and told them what we were doing and that we wanted their support. Again, they’d, through their office, give anything we wanted, anything we needed. This went on for maybe a year. 24 Going back to ’71, probably in ’72, and I’m gonna have to do some [research on] which legislator or senator put a bill in to create, what was it, State of Utah Veterans Office or something like… It’s not like the department we have now. We’re just the Office of Veterans Affairs. We had one supervisor, one secretary, and two outreach people. Four employees. KM: A small office. NR: Oh, very small. The budget, I’m not sure what it was, but enough to pay the four of us. So, his last name was Parry, P-A-R-R-Y. He was a Vietnam vet. Our supervisor, his last name was Robison, not Robinson, R-O-B-I-S-O-N, Robison. Everybody called him Roby. He said, “I want you to take care of the south,” and looked at me and said, “I want you to take care of the north.” “Okay.” KM: In doing that, that’s gonna involve you in a lot of travel. NR: Yes, from Salt Lake to Tremonton, so they furnished me with a state car and I parked it in Ogden. I got office space in Farmington, I got office space in Layton, Ogden, to take care of Roy and Clearfield, so I had an office in Ogden. Then I went north and got offices in Logan and Tremonton, so I had like five offices. On Monday I would come to Farmington, stay there a couple of hours. The veterans would come in to file or whatever they needed, and then from there to Layton for about two or three hours before I went home, took care of all the paperwork. They even furnished me with a receptionist in Ogden office to answer the phones and so forth. She came from some disadvantaged program, so she helped with the telephone and making appointments so on and so forth. Monday, 25 Farmington, Layton. Tuesday, Ogden. Wednesday, Tremonton. Thursday, Logan. Fridays I came back to my office and got all the paperwork ready to file with the VA in Salt Lake for claims and all kinds of paperwork. KM: I was gonna ask you who kept the statistics and who kept all the information. So, you’re working closely with the federal Veterans Affairs Office, particularly if you have collected information, ‘cause you’re trying to help veterans that are in these outlying areas. One way to help them is to get them in contact with the Veterans Affairs Office that might provide you with other help or information, etcetera. NR: That’s how come I put up office’s different days, because the posters were out around the post office, county, state, posters all over the place. If I went to Tremonton from 8 till 12 that day, there was posters all over that I would be there between 8 and 12. So, they came to the office for whatever they need. That’s how. KM: Thinking back, do you have a sense of what some of the most often requested services were? Were veterans most often looking for jobs? Were they most often looking for access to education? What were they…? NR: The reception, that I can remember, the priority list made jobs number one. Two, if I remember correctly, was school, college. Number three was to file the paperwork. If they were filing to the VA whatever, to see if they qualify for medical, make sure that the spouses and the family got what they had coming to them, those kind of claims. I done all that on Fridays and still talked to veterans if they came in. Then on Monday morning, I’d take all these claims and go to the 26 VA, the feds, and file the claims with them. That’s what took place at the Office of Veterans Affairs. KM: I’m actually going to ask you about your visibility because we’ve just gone out to your garage to take a look at a particular license plate. But you were also talking about that you drove a state car but you had additional markings on the car. What were those markings? What did you put on the car? NR: Veterans representative. That’s it. KM: It magnetized to the side? NR: Yeah, put them on the front doors, both sides. The people that made it for me, again, free. They just, “We’ll make this for you.” It was in such a way that the colors they selected stood out. KM: Ah, so they could really— NR: Stood out. KM: I bet that was a good way to do that because your offices would be small, but the car would be additional notice that this office existed and that you were there in the office. That would be a good way to advertise that. NR: Sure, yeah. KM: Very effective. NR: Even though it was a state car, I got permission to put those on there. They said, “Yeah, you’re doing veterans work for the state, so yeah, it’s okay. We’ll give you permission.” The guy that made it for me, he says, “It doesn’t cost that much. We’ll do a couple for you.” So, when I visit the offices, the car was parked there. 27 KM: Yeah, it’s a good idea. The United States starts pulling troops out of Vietnam in 1973. NR: Yes. KM: I can only assume that there was quite a number of veterans that sought your help? NR: Yes, hundreds. Hundreds of veterans, both men and women, and they came to those offices and said, “Well okay, what am I due? How much school can I get? How much medical can I get for my little girl who’s sick?” Then not only was I and the office busy, but the VFW, American Legion, Disabled American Veterans, they were busy too with what they called service officers. Veterans went to them also, so we had quite a bit of coverage. KM: A real network of people trying to help the veterans and giving information. NR: Yes, the veterans organizations hopped in and said, “We want to help.” I said, “You’re welcome.” That’s what generated interest about the veterans programs, GI bill, and so forth. We had all this information ready for them. I’ve got paperwork as to what eligibility and from the VA, the feds. I went to them because every Monday morning we’d take the claims to them. Every Monday morning I would visit the feds, VA. They collected all kinds of paperwork that they had telling the veterans what benefits they had and so forth. I loved this job. I knew that I had to start the day in the morning, but I didn’t pay no attention to the evening because I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed my job. KM: That’s great. 28 NR: Especially when everybody else [is] kind of uniting to help you with that. It just turned out to be a beautiful creation of assistance to the veterans coming home because boy, they were coming home upset. Number one, because they were not welcome like the World War II or Korean veterans because of Vietnam. Most of ‘em really needed therapy, a lot of therapy, and just a lot of assistance from the city, county and state people. KM: How long were you doing this? How many years did you work? NR: Okay, when that office was created, I think it was ’72. I just told you, what, north of Salt Lake? KM: Yes, your assignment. NR: Yeah, I think that office was open close to five or six years. Like I said, we stayed busy, busy, busy. I’m so happy that they had that office. Then 1978 the legislator from Tooele allowed—Mrs. White submitted a bill to close the State Office of Veterans Affairs. Her comment was, “Why do we need the state office when we’ve got the feds?” The VA office in Salt Lake. Salt Lake feds did not have outreach people, so our office had outreach: me, the gentleman going south, and the VFW, American Legion, DAV, American Veterans, what have you. When we got the word that she had submitted this bill, we couldn’t understand because when we created this office we visited city, county, state. We thought that would unite and, what’s the word, not to vote to close that office. KM: Oh yes, to campaign to really make the case that this was a worthwhile endeavor. NR: Right, but it passed. 29 KM: It did. This is Betty White, right? Isn’t this Betty White? Beverly White, that’s right. NR: Yes, I recall, yeah. They closed the office, then all the four secretaries and the two outreach went to their agencies because they completely just closed the office. I hope that our office, Veterans Affairs, kept records as to how many veterans we helped somewhere in the basement of the capitol. But anyway, for six years I think we did a good job of reaching those veterans. KM: What I am impressed with is that it’s very grassroots. You’re really working in the community, and community officials and employers are working together. That seems a very effective strategy. NR: It was, and to my amazement it was easy. Because I was a veteran, I knew what benefits I had, so it went from me to them. “This is available, that’s available. All you have to do, tell us what you need and we’ll send you that with school, jobs, so forth.” KM: It sounds like it did matter that you had experience, you had knowledge. NR: That’s what helped me, the background experience, because even when I was active duty, I volunteered to help at the VFW or the American Legion or DAV because I’d be willing to or still do. It just worked. Everything fell into place. Everything. It just seemed amazing, but the public, they united to help these kids coming back, so that’s how it worked. KM: It must have been very difficult then to see the offices close. NR: Oh, it hurt. KM: I’m sure it did. 30 NR: It hurt because those six years, we knew—and I’m sure that the fed VA has some kind of record because they had to keep them forever just in case these veterans come back to refile or whatever. But all those records are kept. It disappointed us because we were doing—I think, my opinion—good work, and the results were positive. That’s even a plus that when we helped this gentleman, he went to work on a job or went to school, we got that response. That’s a plus, a positive. KM: Absolutely. NR: So, it just worked beautifully. KM: So, the offices are closed. I need to ask you what you did then? NR: Okay, when I got laid off, Job Service—before Workforce Service it was called Job Service—a position opened in Brigham City. Of course, I lived in this area, and they wanted a representative because each Workforce Services agency office had a veterans rep, and veterans come to that rep and tell what they needed. That’s where I went, then from Brigham got transferred to, at the time, Clearfield Job Service. But there they already had the veterans rep, so I was given the job of helping disadvantaged people for whatever jobs and so forth. KM: In general, not just veterans? NR: Right, until I retired. KM: And you retired what year? NR: 1987, July 1. That’s when I retired from work, and I didn’t quit. I’ve been helping. The Governor has appointed me for a two-year position on the Governor’s Veterans Home Advisory Board. I’m on my second year, and the executive 31 director of the Department of State Veterans Affairs approached me last Thursday and they said, “Okay, your appointment is up in December. How do you feel if I ask for two more?” I said, “Go, go. I like it, keeps me busy, keeps the brain working,” because it’s been good for me. I have membership and go to meetings with the Northern Utah Veterans Council. We meet the first Friday every month in Ogden at some restaurant, I forget. First Friday with them, and then on the first Saturday I meet with the American GI Forum. That’s a Hispanic American club, so the first Saturday with them. Then Riverdale, where I live, if you ever get a chance to see our memorial, it’s at the city office right there in front. KM: Oh, I’ll have to look for it. NR: So, I’m with them every first and third Thursday. Last night we had a meeting, and we’ll meet again next Thursday to get ready for Riverdale’s Glory Days Parade. We’re meeting because they’re going to have a booth after the parade in the park, and we’re selling bottles of water just to get some funds to help us. Right now, Riverdale Veterans Memorial Committee helped install this memorial for Riverdale veterans. They ordered tiles with their names, and if they served with one of the military services, we put the name and that information on the memorial. So, we’re still… KM: Good. You’re keeping busy. NR: Yes, because it has been good for me. I enjoy it, and my wife supports me because lots of time she’s home, says to me, “Go, get out of the house.” 32 KM: I want to ask you, I know that this works for you, but I bet it also works for these organizations because you know so many people. You have so many contacts. Do you find that you can use those networks very effectively as you continue to work and help these committees? NR: Absolutely, yes. I volunteer at the pharmacy at the base. I’ll be there 24 years first of July. I volunteered as soon as I retired in 1987; I’ve been there for 24 years. Like I say, it keeps me busy, it keeps me in tune with the benefits that the veterans are getting nowadays, because constant change all the time. Especially now with the economy, there’s not so much money for veterans, but we’ll work with that. We’ll continue to do what has to be done because these young kids are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan just, oh, limbs, head injuries, it’s so sad. The Veterans Home 120-bed facility is full. KM: Is it really? NR: Mostly World War II veterans. As of last Thursday, we had six female veterans in the home. Like I say, most of them World War II. The oldest is 99, the youngest is 45. The 45-year-old is an Iraq veteran. A beautiful, beautiful home. I was on their construction committee. Took us four or five years to realize that facility, but we got it. Representative Brad Dee from Washington Terrace submitted a bill for that veteran home, and then Senator Knudson wrote a bill from the senate. Bradley Dee from the representative group sent it to Knudson from the senate group, so they’re the ones that created the veteran home. I go there sometimes to visit, talk to the veterans, because I’m just now getting at that age they don’t talk much. We have four wings. That one wing is for 33 dementia, and that’s called the Coast Guard wing. Then we have the Air Force wing, the Marine wing, the Navy wing, so we have four wings of 30 beds each. Beautiful facility. KM: Wow, that’s great. NR: Contractor to help maintain the home, they do a beautiful job. They’re good contractors. KM: It’s a good thing to be involved with. NR: Yes, and I learn every day different things that I should remember when I talk to veterans and so forth. It’s been a beautiful journey for me. KM: Well, I appreciate your willingness to let me hear part of that journey. Thank you very much. 34