Oral History Program Helen Clausse Interviewed by Marie Jones 12 March 1997 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Helen Clausse Interviewed by Marie Jones 12 March 1997 Copyright © 2012 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. Archival copies are placed in University Archives. The Stewart Library also houses the original recording so researchers can gain a sense of the interviewee's voice and intonations. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Stewart Library of Weber State University. No part of the manuscript may be published without the written permission of the University Librarian. Requests for permission to publish should be addressed to the Administration Office, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, Utah, 84408. The request should include identification of the specific item and identification of the user. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Clausse, Helen, an oral history by Jones, Marie, 12 March 1997, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Helen Clausse. The interview was conducted on March, 12 1997, by Marie Jones in Clausse’s home. Helen talks about her childhood and her family. MJ: Today is March 12, 1997. My name is Marie Jones and I am going to interview Helen Clausse. This is taking place in her TV room, this is my grandma. Thank you, Grandma, for doing this interview. Okay, we'll start first...where were you born? HC: In Idaho. MJ: And when did you move to Utah? HC: When I was about five years old. MJ: Well, the first question I want to ask is, what were the public schools like that you went to? HC: You mean compared to now? MJ: Or just what were they like? HC: Well, just went to school. MJ: Did you have big classrooms? HC: No, we had kind of small classrooms, and the schools were much smaller than they are now; we had old-fashioned desks. MJ: What are old-fashioned desks? 1 HC: Well, the kind that have ink wells in some of them, not all of them that was kind of before my time, the ink wells. But there were some of them that had ink wells in them. And of course old green black boards. I have no idea what a school room looks like now, I haven't been in one for years. MJ: Can you remember any kind of deviant things that you did in grade school? HC: Any kind of what things? MJ: Naughty things. HC: Well, I remember once we were in sewing class on the top floor of the school and three or four of us would climb out the window onto the roof at school. We thought that was real naughty. MJ: Did the teacher ever find out? HC: I don't know whether she did or not, but I know we thought we were real naughty. And then one time going to school I got in a rock fight, and I had a rock in my head. And the teacher looked at it and said - anyway, I wasn't crying, and she said I should have been. And she was going to go get the guy that threw the rock, I can remember. Anyway, we had a rock fight, we just threw rocks at each other. We didn't use guns in those days. MJ: You had rocks, was it just for fun? HC: Oh, yeah. MJ: Did you have mostly women school teachers? HC: Yes, I had three. I didn't have a man teacher until, well, I had one when I started junior high. 2 MJ: What kind of friends did you make? HC: Well, we had a group of us, I guess there were about six of us. Six girls; in fact, we still go to lunch together, the six of us. MJ: Do you? You are all still around? HC: Yeah; well, we were gone during the war years, but then we all came back. And we still come together so it’s been a life-long friendship. MJ: Did you go to school with them? HC: Yes, from the first to the twelfth grade, and we still meet and have lunch. So that's pretty good. MJ: What was dating like during school? HC: It couldn't be like it was now, because we had to ride the street car down the middle of Washington Boulevard. And we had to catch the street car if we wanted to go into town, either catch the street car or walk to town. Oh, I went with one kid once in a rumble seat of a car, but he couldn't drive, he had to have, I think it was his brother that drove. That was quite an experience. MJ: So even after you could drive you still took the trolley. HC: I did not drive until after I had Michael. MJ: Wow, did you have to have driver’s ed or anything to get your license, or you just learned? HC: You just learned and then you got a license. MJ: By yourself? Did you teach yourself to drive? 3 HC: Well no, I had one friend taught me and then Joe taught me, and then I didn't drive until after Michael was born. And then that was necessity; I didn't want to stay home all the time, I would kill the kids. MJ: How old were you when you did that? HC: Oh, twenty-two. No, we didn't have driver’s ed or anything. MJ: You just took the test? HC: My grandma and grandpa, they didn't even have to take a test or anything, they just went and told them their names and they gave them their licenses. And it was good for until they died. MJ: That's scary. HC: Grandma and Grandpa Clausse didn't ever use it, neither of them ever drove, but they had driver's licenses. MJ: Okay, what was your first date like? Do you remember? HC: Well, they used to have what they called loyalty day parade, do you know what those are? There were all the kids from all the grade school and all of them marched in the parade, every spring they had the loyalty day parade, we marched in that. And then after the show I went with a boy then. MJ: Do you remember his name? HC: Yes, Bill Ball, not that it makes any difference. MJ: Did you go by yourself or did you go in a crowd? HC: Oh, we went in a crowd. 4 MJ: Did you always date in crowds? HC: Most of the time. MJ: When was your first kiss? HC: Oh heavens, I can't remember. I have no idea. I really didn't date too terribly much except this one boy, and I did go out with a lot of kids but I didn't like any of them. MJ: Did you have a curfew? HC: No. MJ: You didn't? What time were you usually home? HC: Well, most of the time. But since I got out of school I went to work, so I had to be home because I had to get up and go to work. I remember one night we stayed out all night, I think it was New Year's Eve or something. But it wasn't very much fun, we got too tired. MJ: So was this during high school or were you graduated from high school by then? HC: I think I had graduated by then. I don't remember any of the kids I went with that year. Even my kids didn't have a curfew. MJ: You were nice. HC: I just told them that I trusted them and if they ever gave me a reason to not trust them then I'll give them a curfew, as long as they behaved themselves, so they did, I guess I don't know. MJ: You never found out. HC: That's true. 5 MJ: What was your early family life like when you were growing up? HC: We were quite poor, didn't have many things, we kind of lived on a farm. And dad used to walk to his work, and mother would do a lot of the farming, the irrigating, and the planting. I don't remember much about living up there, because I can't, it was many years ago. I remember going back there all the time after we moved to town because my grandmother and lots of my aunts and uncles lived up there. The only thing I remember is we were going somewhere and mother wouldn't let me take a dog that they had and I ran under the porch and held the dog and wouldn't come out because I wanted to take the dog. That's about all I can remember living up there. MJ: What about down in Ogden? HC: We moved up to South Washington for awhile, I guess we were only up there for about five or six months. All I remember was a red brick house on Washington Avenue. MJ: You were the oldest, weren't you? HC: I had a sister that only lived about 17 days. MJ: So did you have to watch.... HC: Yes, I always had to take care of kids. That was okay, only I thought they had to mind me; I guess that is kind of impossible. They didn't like that very much. I babysat a little bit but I didn't care for that either, and I got paid; I took care of three boys for about twenty-four hours and got paid fifty cents. Mother made me give twenty-five cents of it back, she said fifty cents was too much. So that is how babysitting has changed. MJ: We get paid a lot more now. So how many brothers and sisters did you have? 6 HC: One brother and three sisters. And then the one that died, which would be four. Now, wait a minute, I didn't have three sisters; I only had two sisters, I was thinking of my kids! No, I only had two, Betty and Marion, and the one that died was a girl. MJ: Did you have chores to do? HC: Oh yeah, we had to do dishes and keep our rooms clean, you know, just the ordinary. No dishwashers, we had to do them the old fashioned way. But I do remember I always had to wash and Betty would rinse, and instead of rinsing them she would put them back in the dish pan. And I'd get mad and scream and yell at her. Guess who got to end up washing them? I learned to keep my mouth shut. MJ: Did you take family vacations? HC: No, about the only vacations we ever had was when we went to Idaho. We went every Memorial Day. MJ: To do what in Idaho? HC: Oh we'd just go up to a lake and have a big family reunion every year. And we did go to California once. MJ: How long did it take you to get to Idaho and California? HC: Well to Idaho it took us quite a while. It used to take us a good four or five hours which you can do now in two hours now I think. MJ: Did you have a lot of arguments with your brothers and sisters, or did you get along? 7 HC: Well, I’m sure we argued, Betty was quiet and she would do things and I'd get blamed for them because I didn't have enough sense to keep my mouth shut, but we just raked her, you know. MJ: Did you ever rebel against your parents? HC: No, I don't remember. Well I guess I'm just like the other kids. Wanted to do something they didn't want me to do, I don't remember. But I remember that if I wanted something really bad not to go to Mother, but to go to Dad; Mother wouldn't give it to me, but Dad would if he had it. In fact I bought, I had my first boughten coat when I went to high school. It was either hand me downs or make it from scratch. Well, we didn't have very much. MJ: That's because you grew up during the Depression, right? What was that like? HC: Well, as far as I was concerned, I thought it was just about like anybody else ‘cause all the girls I ran around with, the kids that lived around, there was only one girl I remember that ever had, you know, new clothes. All the rest of us were in the same predicament, so we didn't ever think about somebody having more than we did. MJ: But you never starved or anything? HC: Oh, no. MJ: What did Grandpa do, your father? HC: My father, he tried to farm but he wasn't a farmer, so when we moved down here he went to work for Van Allen Canning Company. MJ: Did he do that during the Depression? 8 HC: Yeah, during the thirties. Then, when I was six years old, he went to work for them. And then he worked for them for awhile, and then he worked for the Royal Canning. MJ: So he never worked for any government projects? HC: He did for about six months. Then he managed Royal Canning until 1940, then he built his own factory and went into business for himself. And that was just the beginning of the war, World War II, so that was a good time to go into the canning business, so that's when dad made his money. MJ: During WWII? So the Depression really didn't affect you that much? HC: No; like I say, I didn't ever go hungry. I didn't ever have money when I wanted it, but neither did my friends, so I never felt deprived or anything like that. Just the norm for that time. MJ: What did you do for fun since you didn't have any money? Because you were a teenager, weren't you, during the Depression? Or close to? HC: Well, close to. It was the thirties wasn't it? Yeah most of the time, yeah I was because I got married when I was 21. We played "run, sheepie, run" and "kick the can." MJ: You entertained yourself. HC: Yeah, and then we'd go sleigh riding down the hill, and then the kids would ski. I was never very good at that, but we used to... And then we went to church, they had gold and green balls. They had dances and stuff like that and plays, we used to do that. Oh, and when I was in grade school we formed a little club that we used to go to all the time. MJ: You would go to movies? 9 HC: Well, not too much; it only cost a nickel or dime, but we didn't have a nickel or dime. Oh, and then we used to go swimming in the ditch, build a dam in the ditch and we'd go swimming there. And then we would watch the ball games that they had down at the ball park, down where there is one now. And then I had a pair of roller skates; well, we had to carry our skates from the house, streets and sidewalks. In the winter time it would be muddy and snowy and that so we would walk and carry our boots and we would take our skates and boots off and put them in the neighbor's mailbox because nobody else had to wear any because they didn't have to walk through the mud and the snow like we did. MJ: What kind of jobs did you have before you were married? HC: I picked beans, and I picked more beans, and more beans. MJ: How much did you get paid? HC: I don't know, a penny a pound, not very much. I was about eight years old and I picked them every year. That's how I bought my new clothes. But nobody but us would pick them, none of our friends would pick them, it was too hard of work. But we all did, Betty and I did. MJ: Was it for your father? HC: Well, it was for the canning factory. There used to be a lot of farmers down on 2nd street that grew green beans, and so I guess that was my first job, was picking beans. MJ: Did you work after you were married? HC: Not very much until after Jill was born. I worked at the Emporium which was a department store in Logan, I worked there part-time. And every once in a while I'd work 10 for Dad at the factory because I was a secretary when he was at the Royal Cannery. I would just help out. MJ: You stayed home with your kids after you got married? HC: Until Jill was born; then I went to work full time. MJ: So how did you meet your future husband? HC: Well, first of all I met his mother, because she worked at the canning factory. She had six boys and she would talk about them all the time, and then they moved from South Ogden. They used to live just behind Washington Store. And they moved out to Eighth and we went to school together because we were the same age. So I knew who he was before he moved there. So then I ran around with him for awhile and he joined the CC Camp, so I didn't go with him very much until he finished. MJ: What's the CC Camp? HC: Civilian Conservation Corps. It was a war-time job for young men. They went out and they built dams and cleaned up. It was to get people work because there wasn't very much work. MJ: So how old were you and Grandpa when you got married? HC: When I got married? 21. MJ: Grandpa was 21 too, right? HC: Yeah, we were both 21. There is only two months’ difference in our ages. MJ: How did he propose? 11 HC: I don't think he ever asked me to marry him, he was working in Provo and we were sitting on the lawn and he gave me a ring. MJ: And that was it. HC: And that was it; he didn't say anything about it, but I guess we just kind of took it for granted. I don't ever remember him saying "Will you marry me?" or anything, he just gave me a ring and I took it that he wanted to get married. But then so did I. MJ: What was your wedding like? Was it big? HC: No, we just had family; we were married down at Grandma and Grandpa's house. MJ: What year was this? HC: 1940. There was just his family and my family. And we went to the dinner at the Hotel Ben Lomond. MJ: And that was your honeymoon? HC: No, then we went to Salt Lake; that was our honeymoon, in Salt Lake. We went from Ogden to Salt Lake and that was it. Stayed the night in Salt Lake. MJ: Just one night? HC: Brief honeymoon; like I say, nobody had very much money in those days. MJ: What was your early married life like? Did you stay home? HC: Oh yeah, I didn't work. MJ: And Joe worked.... 12 HC: Well, kind of. He was doing steel work when we were married, construction. So we lived in Provo for awhile and then we went to Denver for two or three months. Then he went to Santa Maria, California, no, no he went to Las Vegas first and worked with his dad there in steel construction. Then he went to Santa Maria, and that's where he was when the war broke out. MJ: Didn't he fight in WWII? HC: He was drafted. MJ: He was drafted? For how long? HC: Well, he was gone for about two years. MJ: Did you have any kids then? HC: Yes, I had Michael and I was pregnant with Sharon. MJ: Was that hard for you? HC: Well, yes, I'm sure it was. We had just bought our home. I stayed home and took care of the kids. MJ: What was it like living on rations? HC: It must have been okay because I can't remember anything too bad about it. So we must have got along okay. MJ: What was it like actually living through WWII? Do you remember how you felt or what you thought? HC: Well, it was, of course Joe was in the Navy - he was on a ship, but he never had to fight. The ship never, but it was kind of lonesome. 13 MJ: Did you know much about what was going on with the actual war? HC: Not much. I guess I just wasn't too interested in it. MJ: It didn't impact your life, except for taking your husband away? HC: Except for that, I got along fine. Course when we bought our home, we did buy it, Dad gave us a down payment and then we paid for it. We paid $2,759. MJ: Wow. HC: For a new home, it was a new home at the time, it was brand new. Then I just stayed with the kids. MJ: What did you think of Franklin Delano Roosevelt? HC: I really didn't think too much, I should have been more active in politics, but I didn't have the time. I don't think he was as great as all the people think he was. MJ: How come? HC: Well, I don't know, I just – well, for one thing, I didn't like his personal life. MJ: What was his personal life? HC: Oh, he had lots of girlfriends, you know, stuff like that. He was a brilliant man I guess. MJ: Do you like what he did for the country? HC: Well, I don't know; I think he gave too much to people. Didn't make them work for it. I think you should work for what you get or just go without. He did start the CC Camp, though, which gave a lot of people work. MJ: So how many kids did you have? 14 HC: I have five. MJ: Were they all girls or all boys? HC: One boy and four girls. MJ: Did Grandpa spend very much time with them? HC: Not like they do now, fathers do a lot more than they did. MJ: Did he take more part in the disciplining or did he... HC: No, not too much, I did most of that. All he did was look at the kids and as soon as he gave them one of his looks they knew they were in trouble, and they better shape up. MJ: So he didn't really spend time with them, doing things? HC: Oh well, we used to go for rides and that a lot, and camping and that because that's all we could afford to do. As far as going to shows and out to eat you know hamburgers and things like that, we didn't do that; we didn't have the money, so we couldn't. Every Sunday we went to Mother's or Grandma's. I did most of the discipline, but if they were sick he took care of them. MJ: If they were sick he would come. HC: Because I was no good at taking care of people when they were sick. And if the kids got hurt or anything he was the one that helped, he took care of the cuts and bruises. He was more compassionate than I was. MJ: So when he came home from work what did he do? 15 HC: Well, he fixed the basement and the house, he'd work outside; he liked to work out in the yard so he did a lot of yard work. And he liked to build things so he always kind of worked. MJ: He didn't sit in his chair all day? HC: No, he liked to tinker, he was a very good handy man, he could do most of the work around the yard and the house and he also liked to paint. When he had more time he probably painted a lot more than he did now. MJ: Like paint pictures? HC: Yes. MJ: You said you went camping; did you take any family vacations like they do now, every summer go on a vacation? HC: My kids didn't know what a vacation was. We went up to the lodge. Joe and I went once with Dad, Mother and Dad. To North Carolina and Dad was president of the Ogden Reds, not with the kids. MJ: What are the Ogden Reds? HC: They were a baseball team from Ogden, and so they were having spring training. As far as a family vacation, well in fact we've never been to Yellowstone, I've never been to Yellowstone. I guess I thought it was more important that they had something to eat and to wear than if they went on a vacation. But we did go camping, we did take the kids and go camping. Usually just a day trip or something. MJ: What do you think of the technology? 16 HC: I can't understand it, I have no idea. I don't know, I think it’s just, I just hope it doesn't get too complicated, because I can't understand it. MJ: Have there been a lot of changes? HC: So many that you just can't comprehend all the things that have changed. MJ: Did you have anything that you thought was high tech when you were younger? HC: I guess our radio, an old fashioned radio. MJ: That was pretty high tech? HC: Well it was a lot better that the phonograph we had before that. The telephone, radio, television was just you know... MJ: Was that pretty neat? HC: Well, we didn't have TV until after we were married. MJ: Did that change your life? HC: I imagine it changes everyone's life really when they watch TV and that. I know that the children always wanted to watch a couple of shows. It still boggles my mind how they can get TV and that. I just take it for granted now. MJ: Just watch it. HC: We used to just have radio, we didn't have TV until well after he was home from the war. MJ: Did you spend a lot of time watching it? 17 HC: Well, I don't remember too much time; I had too many kids to take care of, didn't have time. MJ: Was it hard to keep your kids away from watching TV and doing their homework and their chores? HC: I never had any problems with any of my kids doing their homework, they all did it. I never had to say "you got homework?" or "get it done." They did it. Michael never did do very much but he was on the honor roll all the time, he was an "A" student. I never saw him study at home until he went to college. And then he would bring work home, but I never saw him do it. I guess he just retained what he learned. MJ: What did you think of African American people back then? HC: Back then I guess I was a little prejudiced. I thought they should be by themselves, segregated. MJ: Was that how most people felt? HC: I think so. I know I felt like I could tolerate any of my children near any Japanese or Hispanic more than I could an African-American. I could see that, the others I always thought "well, that would be okay." And I think I shouldn't be, I know, but I think I still have feelings about it if one of my kids were to marry an African-American. MJ: How come? I'm just curious. HC: I don't know, I guess it’s just because it’s been bred in me and I know I shouldn't feel prejudice but I do a little bit, I really do. MJ: But you said that now you don't quite feel - is that from more experience with... 18 HC: Well, now when I was growing up I remember, black Americans, we didn't call them African-American. MJ: What did you call them? HC: Negroes. Until there was one in our school. We never did have any contact with them or anything like that. When I went to high school I think maybe they put one or two in the whole school. MJ: Were they ostracized? HC: Well, I think they probably were a little bit. But like I say there was a time when I don't ever remember, just one or two black families in the whole city. Course I didn't know too much about the south part of the city. But I think that had a lot to do with it. So now that there are so many more of them, you take them - I don't want to say for granted. MJ: They aren't so noticeable maybe. HC: Yeah, because there are so many now. Well, when Joe went to the Navy we took Michael down to Union Station to see him off and Joe was carrying him and the porter came by and they were all African-American and Michael says, "How come that man's face is that color?" He never had seen one, and even on, we didn't have television or anything like that so he'd never seen one. MJ: What did you say to him? HC: I don't know what Joe said, he had him, he was carrying him. MJ: Do you remember the race riots or anything like that? HC: Just the recent ones. 19 MJ: But none back then, there wasn't any racism in Ogden or anything, no cross burnings? HC: Not here; I'm sure there were in other parts of the country, but not in this area. MJ: We are talking about women and going to work. HC: I would just as soon stay home with mine. And equal rights, I don't want equal rights; I'd just as soon have somebody take care of me. And have somebody open the door for me, and you know, and do things for me, I like to be pampered. I don't know why they'd want to give up that. But that's thinking now, mine’s old fashioned thinking. MJ: Women don't need equal rights? HC: I guess it’s okay, I mean if they are capable I guess it’s okay. MJ: What do you mean capable? HC: If they are smart enough and intelligent enough. MJ: Smarter than men? HC: Well, I'm sure they are smarter than some men, and if they want to work that's fine. I just don't. And I think that's why there is really a lot of divorce and, you know, stuff like that, and playing around or whatever you want to call it. MJ: Because women are working? HC: Because women are working; of course they have better chance when they are out in the work field to meet people. But I think it does lead to a lot of marital problems and things like that. But somebody will say "But, oh that way men will have more chance to..." I used to think that if all the women stayed home and all the men worked it would be a better society. 20 MJ: Do you think men are more capable of working outside the home? HC: Well, I think so; ‘course there are women now that do construction work and everything like that, but I think that should be man's work. MJ: Construction work? HC: Yeah, stuff like that. MJ: Like manual labor. HC: Yeah, and of course you've got to have men that think too. But the world has changed, and it’s impossible, you can't stop progression. I guess you might just as well accept it the way it is. I do admire some men now the way they take care of their kids, used to be that it was always the women's job but now they kind of take more of an interest in the raising of the children now than they used to. Which I think is a good thing. MJ: So what do you think of working mothers? HC: I was a working mother, but I do think that if there is a working mother that the father should help the mother with the daily household things and the raising of the child. But I know that when I started to work, I had to do work outside the home and I had to do the work in the home, because men just didn't do things like that. MJ: So Joe never helped you? HC: Well, not too much. He could, he was capable of it. MJ: He mostly did yard work... HC: Well, he would do all the yard work and that, but as far as the household chores, he did like to cook. He would cook once in a while. Outside of that, the rest of it was… 21 MJ: All your job. HC: Although I didn't have to iron his pants, because I couldn't do them very well. He didn't send them to the cleaners. And like I said, he liked to cook; he was a cook in the Navy, and he enjoyed that, but as far as taking care of the kids and that, that was my job. MJ: Do you think women and men should receive equal pay for the same kind of work? HC: Well, I think so, for equal work, can do the work and then if you have the know-how to do it you should get paid. But if you don't.... MJ: Do you think men are more intelligent than women? HC: No. MJ: So women have as much chance too. HC: I don't know; I think nowadays a lot of men, women too, don't apply themselves. They just kind of go along with the flow and they don't try to do their best and to reach their potential. They think now they can get something for nothing. MJ: Well, thank you, Mrs. Clausse. 22