Oral History Program Edith Mueller Interviewed by Ronand Andersen Winter Quarter 1974 i Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Edith Mueller Interviewed by Ronand Andersen Winter Quarter 1974 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library ii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. 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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Mueller, Edith, an oral history by Ronand Andersen, Winter Quarter 1974, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Mrs. Edith Mueller on the war years in Switzerland, some of her experiences, and what life was like in Switzerland during the war. She is going to tell me a little about some of her experiences and those of her family as she recalls them. RA: Tell me something of your life preceding the war years with Germany. EM: We were more or less onlookers as far as the development in Germany was concerned, but we were very involved emotionally and intellectually and, of course, we had refugees coming in for years before the war started. I remember lines in front of businesses that had shut down, lumber yards, pharmaceutical and chemical plants and things like this. I remember the mood being one of complaint and dreariness, but I went to school then and I didn't concern myself too much. I had been used to having no money because my family did not have any money so to me it was not a new thing. We had money for quite a few years before, and suddenly something hit my family and so we had to go without. It just fell into step with what the depression brought to my people who were better off. So, I don't think I was too much hassled by it. We had half a vegetable garden. Like the Americans have it forced on them in order not to spend money for vegetables and fruits. We always had had these so that really was not too much. What I was always a lot more involved in as I got a little more older was the political scene. I would not read as much as the young people read here today, but I would listen to what my parents were talking about, and to put it mildly we were violently, or very much, anti-German or I should say anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi. Of course, 1 the Jews started pouring into Switzerland either illegally at night or through the Red Cross for years before the war started. RA: Was it just because of Adolph Hitler's policies? EM: Yes, the persecution of the Jews began in the 1930s. I mean in Mein Kamph Hitler talked about the Jews and the arch-enemies of the German people that were in Hitler's words the oppressors. They sucked the life out of the Arian, superman, German population, and you just have to do away with it. He could not hit the German population from one day to the other—destroy the Jews. He kept on dripping it like a little bit of poison every day in small doses until the people really were worked up against the Jews. RA: As I understand it, there are three different language groups in Switzerland--German, French, and Italian. EM: There is one more--Romansh. It is one of the oldest languages, and it has a lot of Latin in it. I would say about 250,000 to 300,000 people speak it. RA: Which canton or language group did you come from? EM: I came from the northern part. They speak a language with French and Italian words in it. Also, there are a lot of German words. It is what the linguists call a corrupted language. RA: Are the people from this area German in origin originally? EM: Americans talk about a melting pot. I would like to say that the Swiss had a melting pot too. There are a lot of German, French, Swedish, Bavarian, and Czechoslovakians. Basically, more people in the northern part of Switzerland are of German descent, but 2 that might be this German heritage, which in some cases is four and five hundred years old. However, they very passionately proclaim they are Swiss. They did not want to have much to do with their northern neighbor. RA: In other words, they did not have a lot of sympathy for the Nazis. EM: We read their literature, we listened to their music, we loved their paintings, we share a lot as far as culture is concerned but that is where it ends. We feel that the Germans are too aggressive, they are too nationalistic, they are not citizens of the world in the larger sense, so politically we did not want to have anything to do with them. This is maybe one form of racism too when you analysis it, but that is a fact. We did not think we were better, we just think we are different. We are polite and everything with them. Today when somebody asks me in America, “Are you German?” Very strongly I say no I am Swiss. RA: Regarding the refugees that were coming into the country, did the Swiss people take them in or how were they cared for? EM: I have, for instance, a brother-in-law who was a refugee and a cousin of mine is married to a psychiatrist who came originally from Germany. So I know in my own immediate family what they suffered. One came from Frankfurt (the psychiatrist) and the other was a tailor who came from Vienna. They came, I think, in 1937 or 1938 and both of them are Jews. The ones that came were mostly Jews. Some of them were political, some were painters, some were writers who could not stand it anymore and escaped into Switzerland, and we took them in. Some received visas from America or some South America so they were safely tucked away. We had them by the thousands, and it was mostly the Jewish communities of certain Swiss cities who provided maybe large homes 3 or families took them in, funds were pouring in, they had clothes for them, they never got a working permit however. The Swiss were very unkind in that respect. They fell in with the Germans who proclaimed them to be people without a country. RA: The Swiss did not allow them to work? EM: No. They just allowed them to come in. Sometimes the government would give them money or would give them food or things like this. The Swiss felt that first they had to look out for their own people. This was maybe not a very generous attitude, but we just had to look out for our own. At least the men and women who fled into Switzerland had a haven. They had to check with the government every three months and had to get their visas, which were just temporary visas, renewed and they were considered to be people without a country. When the Germans started purging the Jews, they took their citizenship away from them. They did this when they entered Austria, Hungary, and all other countries. This happened because they annexed those countries and they became part of the greater German Reich. Automatically, their former citizens were without a citizenship. My brother-in-law immigrated to America as really not being a citizen. Because Americans always take the land of your birth as the place that gave you citizenship, my brother-in-law was still considered an Austrian. The Americans disregarded what the Germans had done. They all came into this country under a special quota. I wanted to say that the refugees brought a lot of good things into Switzerland. They made us appreciate our country and our freedom more. I think in a certain way, we became more compassionate and more understanding. We became more determined to just deny the Nazis any room in our country. But then, we have a fifth column just the same—Swiss traitors. 4 RA: What were the types of people in the fifth column? What kinds of things did they do? EM: I don't think that we had big scandals like the Rosenberg’s. We did not have anything so dramatic like that. What we had were small infiltrators whose eyes and ears were open all the time. They got a gratification out of tattling. They felt threatened and were ready to admit the Germans had everything and in time would win over the allies. I think they wanted to be "in" when the Germans finally took over. It was difficult to know there were Swiss citizens ready to betray their country, the refugees, or the people who had escaped into Switzerland. This was a real black mark. RA: It wasn't a strong movement was it? EM: No, very minimal but it was there. RA: In 1939 the war began, France was defeated in 1940, and the Swiss were surrounded. What was it like to be surrounded on all sides? EM: It was a very uptight feeling. We did not know if Hitler would enter Switzerland the next morning. He had so successfully invaded so many countries like France even though there was a Magi not Line, which was supposedly like the Great Wall of China. He took France within a few days. Also, he took Luxemburg, the Netherlands, and Belgium. We never really thought we could successfully withstand the German army should they decide to break into Switzerland and go all the way down to Italy. RA: Why do you think they never did do this? EM: When we realized that Hitler would not go, there were people who said he just could not destroy this beautiful country. Some of them had real romantic notions for their reasons. Of course, with a person like Hitler that would be the last thing to move him. We were a 5 lot more useful to him; we were a lot more useful to everyone. It was like a citadel. In this war-torn Europe, there was Switzerland. The allies, Russians, Germans, and Italians all had their spies; they needed a neutral ground from which to work. So this was one reason. Another reason was that every single pass, every single tunnel, every single highway that led into and out of Switzerland to other countries was so heavily mined we would have blown half of the country apart. We were ready to do this. There were tremendous caches of ammunition in the mountains, and although we knew the German spies had most of the locations, the thing they could not prevent us from doing was blowing half of the countries to pieces. This was something we lived with for several years. We really lived with it. The city that I lived in, the northern most city, you could walk from my house into Germany in a half an hour. It was that close. We had traps against the tanks all across the main access streets and we, as citizens, had to push our bikes around it. We lived that way for five years. We never thought about it anymore. RA: Wasn't life a little difficult for you being surrounded like that as far as what you needed to live such as food? EM: Yes definitely. Switzerland always knew that we would not have more food than we could produce and store in our country that would last for more than three at the very best for four years. Things were very tightly rationed. For instance, I am a real nut on rice. I can never get enough rice, and I am tracing it back to the fact that for almost three years no one in Switzerland saw one kernel of rice. This might be ridiculous to anyone else, but to us being deprived of having rice which we had loved and which was a staple food on our tables was really being deprived. Another thing was sometimes for 6 months you would get half an egg a month. So unless you could go together with someone and share an egg a month, you went without eggs for months. RA: People as a whole did not suffer a lot? EM: No, it was nothing in comparison to what the Dutch went through, or the French, or any of those people. So really I am just bring out these points. I don't want your pity, but to show you in comparison with other countries, it was absolutely nothing. RA: The war itself was probably the product of a lot of things, but do you think the Swiss saw it coming or foresaw the Germans taking Hitler as their leader in the 1930s? EM: Do you remember in 1938, Daladier, the French Premier, and Chamberlain from England meeting in Munich and more or less delivering Czechoslovakia to Hitler, and Hitler stating he had no more claims on any territory and wanted peace, and Chamberlain waving his hand and umbrella? The Swiss were almost beside themselves. We did not cheer, we were not happy, we just knew we were only postponing the war. The longer we postponed it, the better the Germans will be prepared. This was one of the maneuvers that Hitler played. He took things step by step. He was like the wolf who ate the seven little goats. He swallowed one but was sure to go back and look around for the other one. In the meantime, he got more sassy, he got more sure of himself, and he was able to put off the day of the war until he was absolutely sure that he was ready. In September 1939, war was declared and Hitler was prepared. It was France and England who were not prepared. RA: The people probably did not think they could rely for too much help from the British or the French? 7 EM: No. I think that probably the Swiss were a strange mixture of facing certain realities which the French and the English absolutely refused to face. Maybe this is because they just suffered through a war of twenty years ago which the Swiss did not suffer through. Maybe the French and the English wished so much things to be the way they saw them, and the Swiss just had this uncanny feeling that this is too good to be true; they were just a lot more skeptical. We, for instance, when the war broke out, many, many Swiss families had a lot of food stored. What we have in Utah, you know the Church saying store your food for a year, that is nothing new to us. We did this in the 1930s. Whenever you could scrounge something you would put it away. We had bottles of oil sitting in our cellars and cans of vegetables and things like this in order to be ready for whatever hits us. RA: As I understand it, the Swiss army mobilized right after the war started. They were considered to be citizen soldiers. Were any of your family in a position to be in the military or did they ever see any kind of action? EM: They only action that anyone of them saw was my husband's family. My' husband was in the army for three and a half years. Sometimes he would go on furlough so he could go to the university and pursue his studies. What action he saw was when he had to guard the Poles, refugees, or deserters that swept into Switzerland at night. They had them in big concentration camps. I mean this in the good sense of the word. They were not like Dachau and Auschwitz. We had to put them and herd them together some place because technically they were under the Geneva Convention. Although they were in a neutral country, they were still soldiers. They were more or less in some form prisoners of war. We had all the Poles, all the French who came into our country, we had them 8 together in large camps and the Swiss volunteers had to guard them. Some of them were close to the borders. There were sometimes fights and things going on--violence. When you talk in terms of violence, relatives of mine saw German soldiers going after people trying to cut the barb wire or crawl under it to escape, they saw them shot and dying like you see in the movies. A lot of instances happened on the border. Of course, the Swiss government issued stern letters to the government in Germany telling them how much against this they were and they still hold their borders open. Of course, this was to no avail as no one told Hitler anything. RA: Did the war require a substantial alteration in the federal structure of your country? EM: Yes. RA: Was it necessary to make a stronger federal government in order to provide for your war effort? EM: Definitely, we depended a lot more on the national government. I imagine the same thing would apply in America. If war or any grave emergency arose, I think the whole of the country would be inclined to look to Washington rather than the local government. This applied to Switzerland, we looked to Bern, which was the capital of the whole country. We still depended very much on the local government but only for local things otherwise we gave our federal government quite a bit of emergency power. This is similar to what exists in Washington—that under the threat of war or under actual war conditions, the President can take those measures necessary without going through the whole machinery of voting. However, we never gave the federal government any freedom to make deals with Germany on a political basis. Under the pressure of the situation, they did have to appease the Germans somewhat. One of these that enraged 9 the Swiss was that they permitted the Germans to have trains going through Switzerland to ship goods, ammunition, etc., from Germany to Italy and vice versa. This was a real sore spot with the population. RA: Do you think that might have been a reason why Hitler did not invade Switzerland? EM: Definitely, this was one more reason. The spy nets were another, the fact that we would have blown the country apart, we did not harm the railroads, the power stations, and finally we were more important to him in tact were all reasons. The Swiss government was censoring the newspapers. As far as the official newspapers were concerned whatever aroused the anger of the German ambassador in Bern, it was brought to the attention of the federal government. They, in turn, would reprimand the newspaper who had printed something derogatory concerning the German government. In time the more independent newspapers did something which I have always greatly admired and thought was very unique. Sometimes you would open the newspaper and half of the page was white--just blank, and you knew there was something that had been censored by the government. They had given an order to the newspaper to take out what had displeased the censor and replace it with something else. The newspaper only kept half of the order. They did not print what the government forbid them to print, but they did not print what the government told them to print. So sometimes you would pay for a newspaper that was maybe one-third blank. You delighted in this. I had a "high." I remember, I thought it was great. It was the only way for the newspapers to demonstrate one measure of independence. I thought this was great. However, we had to make concessions. Maybe it is difficult for you to understand this, but we got food from the Germans and sometimes we knew that the Germans had taken it away from 10 other countries. We made deals with them. For instance, under the guise of the Red Cross, starving children from Greece were brought in to be cared for. So we extracted concessions from the Germans too. Also, to further appease the Germans we did not print too many pro-allied news stories. This was a difficult situation for the Swiss government. At times they felt like tightrope walkers, and in looking back I'm sure we criticized them for things they could not control. As time went on, we had many, many American flyers in Switzerland. I know for a fact that the American headquarters would tell the flyers if you get shot at in the southern part of Germany or in the eastern part of France, by all means try everything you can to guide you plane, no matter how crippled, into Switzerland. If you have to crash it in the country, do it, we will pay for the damages to the Swiss government. If you can land it, land it and tell them that you got lost or heaven knows what. We had several thousands of American flyers in hotels or wherever all over the country who had chosen to be locked up in Switzerland for the rest of the war than to fall into the hands of the Germans. At least when they came into Switzerland, no one would torture them in order to extract information. If they were captured by the Germans, they could have been shot. All in all, this would have been a bigger lose to America. RA: In other words, the Swiss government interred allied pilots and airmen? EM: Yes, the Swiss government closed both eyes. This was never officially admitted but we knew that lots of times Swiss, through their radios, would guide into our country crippled American planes that they heard flying around in the night not knowing where to go. The bombed the city I lived in at one time. You see there is a river and I think they got the two sides of the river somehow confused because so often their attacks would come in 11 the night and this was very confusing to them. This was due to the fact that Switzerland was blacked out. This was another concession the Swiss made to Germany. For a long time we did not black out. Can you imagine from the sky the whole country of Switzerland outlined and you knew exactly where the country's boundaries were? To a large extent, the Swiss claimed the blackout was to save energy, but I think it was another concession to the Germans. They blacked out Switzerland at 10:00 each night. You had to turn off your lights or close shutters and cover the windows so that not a ray of light could come out. The city was heavily patrolled by voluntary air wardens who would check the houses. Anyway, those instances where they would drop bombs, there were not many but they all happened after the blackout came because it was a lot more difficult for them to distinguish boundaries. You got to realize Switzerland is one-fifth the size of Utah--a very small country. Yet, four million people live there. It was extremely densely populated. Can you see how many lights lit up that country in the night time? At the speed that planes would come in it would be so easy for them to overshoot the borders. I mean after all one-fifth of Utah, it is ridiculous. RA: During the war it is now known that Hitler carried on exterminations of the Jews. Were any of your people aware of what was going on in Germany at the time? EM: Yes, but I don't think until after the war and the countdown began that anyone realized how many there were. Six million is an unbelievable, staggering amount. You have got to realize that killing of the Jews had started a long time before the war started. It only got more hysterical after the war started and then even more hysterical when Hitler more or less was not quite sure if he could bring it off. But we heard about the gas chambers, we knew about the trains, you know when they herded them into the trains 12 and would put the trains on deserted tracks leaving them there until they knew they were all dead. We knew of that before the war even broke out. They call it the "whispering" that went on. It would all come out from Germany. Either it was brought by intellectuals or political refugees who at one time or another would manage to go into Switzerland. We have got to realize too that it was not only Jews who were killed, he killed many, many so-called Arians. I mean 100 percent dyed-in-the-wool Germans who caught the displeasure of the Gestapo. They were maybe outspoken, they were writers, they were newspapermen, they were conscientious objectors, many German intellectuals suffered at the hands of their own people. It was not just against all Jews. We just talk more about the Jews because there were so many of them. Many, many German people, intellectuals, feeling people, philosophers, doctors, scientists could not stand the climate anymore. They went to America two, three, four, five years before the war started. How can aware, awakened people really tolerate the climate? I am not talking about the hot or cold, I am talking about the spiritual and the emotional climate in Germany. They just could not take it any longer, so many of them came into Switzerland. Many of them went to France where tragically many got caught. Many went to London. Many went to America. I am maybe unkind, but I would like to compare it to America. There are many people here who really feel ashamed for many of the things that are happening right now. For instance, for many of us it is painful and difficult to face our part of the responsibility in it, and many of us do not admit that we voted for Nixon even though we did. I do not think it is because we are cowards or ashamed, but because it is very painful to face the fact that in a very small measure we have contributed to it. We have to translate this now into Germany. There were many, many, 13 many Germans who had heard about the exterminations, they had heard about what was being done to the flower of their people be it Jews or Arians. I think it was almost unbearable for them to face their— no matter how small— share in the guilt. When you are quiet in certain ways, you can't escape the fact that you have contributed to it. I do not know how I would have behaved. I am glad I have never been put to the test, but the fact remains--don't let anyone fool you, Germans or Austrians who have claimed, "I did not know." If the Swiss knew about it, the Germans knew about it. They witnessed what went on in the flat to the left and right above and below them. The screaming wives whose husbands were taken. The children saw the Star of David on all the Jews for years then suddenly friends disappeared, a store owner disappears. "They knew." I do not mean to criticize them. Maybe I would be quiet too. Maybe I would deny it too, but really what it all boils down to they knew it and they have to live with the guilt. They are still struggling with it today. You talk with a German today and when you really get close to him and try to meet him as a human being without criticizing him and you can really open up to him, he is the first one, if he has any depth, to say, "I just cannot look at it." So you just let it rest, but they knew about it. RA: How did the Swiss people look upon the Italians on the south and Mussolini? Did they also feel a threat from him? EM: No, No. We thought Mussolini was dictator. He did a lot that was unfair, unjust. That he was a pompous, arrogant man, but we did not think he was anything near to as dangerous, as paranoid, as insane as Hitler was. He was more or less just a poor imitation of a tough dictator. The Swiss are a very strange people. We think we are quite unique. No matter how small, we are very important in the world not because we are 14 conceited, we are very conscientious of the contributions we have made in many areas. Well, in the popular terms most of us have quite a good self-initiative. Unfortunately, we are a little bit bigoted too. We are very international, we are very open-hearted, and at the same time we are narrow-minded and not so international as far as certain areas in public life are concerned. In many ways we are a contradiction which maybe every nation has to show. Anyway, we have always looked down, just a little, at the southern-Italians. When I was back in Europe last year, I had many interesting discussions. People would say I cannot understand the attitude you guys have in America against the Mexicans and Negroes. With us it doesn't make any difference whether someone if Mexican or Negro, they are all human beings. The same person who utters those thoughts when you ask him, "Do your children go to school with Italians"? They say, "Yes dammit, we have to put up with those spaghetti-eaters." I do not think they realize it or are aware of it. If they think we have prejudices or treat minorities unkindly, very often they do the same thing. RA: In other words, the Swiss didn't have a lot of respect for anything the Italians could do to them? EM: No, we loved their songs, we loved Rome, we loved the warm weather, we loved the way they are more or less relaxed, but we just loved it because we are outside of the Italian house and we look inside. We are intrigued by what is going on inside, but that does not mean that we would want to trade places with them. It does not mean we would want to be inside of the house, we would much rather have our Swiss house which is neat and clean. We are ambitious, we are hard-working, and we have many of 15 the qualities that we say the Italians do not have and that you have to have in order to make it. RA: Mussolini was more or less a joke then? EM: That is the word, yes. RA: I have heard a lot of things about the work of the Red Cross. I guess they were active in Switzerland during the war. What kind of things did they undertake? EM: The Swiss did a lot of good, but they did this even before the war. When there was a country where they had an economical strife or there were problems with the government, they would always go in and get sick people or children and bring them back to spend six, eight, or ten weeks in the mountains. They would bring them back with Red Cross trains staffed completely with volunteers. After France and Belgium were overrun, through the efforts of the Red Cross, every year thousands upon thousands of children from Holland, Belgium, Luxemburg, and France would come into Switzerland. The children would stay in Swiss homes with Swiss citizens without any reimbursement at all. We had two boys from Belgium staying with us in my parents’ home during the war. They were brought to us through the Red Cross, and they stayed with us for two months. We fed them, gave them clothes, and what not. I think this was a tremendous contribution by the Swiss people under the guise of the Red Cross. I think to save thousands upon thousands of children from probably severe consequences of malnutrition, not even to mention what it meant to them emotionally to come to an island. Although it was hard for them to go back into the war- torn countries, at least they knew there is something like peace on earth which is very important to somehow balance things out for them. I always have to give the Germans credit for this. They 16 were very harsh, they were very cruel, they had very little concern for other nations, very little respect for other people, but they still left this door open. They let the Red Cross go into many countries, bring out children, and bring them to Switzerland. They could have said no, so we have got to give them credit for saving yes. Even if they said yes because the Swiss government compromised once more, that is not so important. But they indeed let us go, and I feel we have got to give them credit for that. RA: A while back you were discussing the general climate in Germany before the war. Did you receive German propaganda broadcasts out of Germany or Italy? EM: Yes, we would get it all. Whenever Hitler would give a talk, whether he would talk from the Reich Palace in Berlin, whether he would talk from his mansion in the southern part of Germany, whether he would visit a factory to dedicate something to whomever it was, all the German workers (white collar and blue collar workers) had to stop working and they were compelled to stay or sit and listen to the whole tirade that would sprout out to them through the radio. They, in turn, were observed, patrolled, and quietly watched by little spies among them. Even if in your heart you were absolutely anti-Nazi, in order to save your life or whatever you would have to clap with the rest of the mob when the crowd that Hitler addressed would applaud. It was expected of the workers who were hundreds of miles away to applaud too. By the same token, the same radio broadcasts were beamed into Switzerland. I remember a woman, she later became my mother-inlaw. The strange thing was she was born and raised in Germany but she completely identified with the Swiss. She would sit in front of the radio and get in such fits that she would shake her fists at it when Goebbels would talk because she identified with the allies. It was very funny to see a German denouncing the German government in a 17 German language. It was something to behold. We were just outraged. It was also very frightening. Somehow you learn to live with those things. I would say that off-hand 90 to 95 percent of the Swiss, no matter how dark it was when Dunkirk happened, France fell, Hitler was talking in terms of going across the Channel, he invaded Russia, he chased the Russians by the thousands in front of him and swept over that country, somehow in the deepest parts of our hearts, we knew sooner or later the tide was going to turn. Don't ask me what fed our hope, it was there. RA: Who did you think would be the ones to turn the tide? EM: I don't know what it is against all the odds. It was there, we were just waiting for the tide to turn. There were times when we were terribly depressed, when we were scared, I would say probably that no other person meant as much to the whole of Europe as did Churchill. First of all, he had the courage to spell out all the dangers and all the possibilities that indeed lurked in the background. By spelling it out, half of the fear automatically diminished. As it is in personal life, you face the danger, you dare to look at it, and half of it is gone because no sooner do you face it that you find the strengths coming up from deep inside of you that you never knew were there. Somehow this happened to us. Americans in nostalgia and admiration look back and they quote Churchill as saying that what he had to offer them was a lot of tears and sweat and blood, there was a big, big ocean between America and Europe and although you were very much involved and we needed you and we greeted you desperately when you came, the fact remained that for two years we had really been isolated emotionally, spiritually, and as nations in war. The Swiss were always lined up with the allies no matter what. When we talk in terms of "we" it was the allies we lined up with. Although 18 technically, we were neutral. When Churchill came, he more or less gathered us and we knew anyone who has a man like this and who has the Royal Air Force who fought off the battle over London, what else can happened to us. "We've got it made." It was just a question of time. Although it is hard for you to realize, it is true. RA: Did the Swiss feel safer with the Americans coming in 1941? EM: Definitely, it was a point of relief. We knew the tide was turning. We sensed it in the two years before America entered the war. I think subconsciously we always looked towards America and probably thought "you are our younger brother, you had better get busy and do something." What it boils down to, it stands and falls with your coming. We can hold on but we do not know for how long. We did not put it in all those words. It is looking back that certain things fall into place, but I know this, it was within us. When America finally came, we knew it was going to be all right. I think we probably knew we needed you not only for the tremendous amount of war machinery that you brought, not only for the soldiers that you sent, not only for your generals, but we needed to be absolutely one in spirit and determination to make a "go." This was very important to us. We had to cling together and when America came in it was "all right, we are going to go it together now." We knew that as a country you had to get ready for it. You wanted to stay removed from us until you just had to come. Of course, America played a very, very important part. RA: The Swiss are craftsmen. Would they, because of this, do any kind of trading in ammunition and weapons with the Germans and Italians? EM: Yes, it is almost like schizophrenia, and it was probably the same thing that the Americans faced. Many of the soldiers who went to Korea and Vietnam knew that either 19 overt or by whatever way very likely many American boys got killed by the enemy with ammunition that was black market or officially gained through business maneuvers. The Swiss made parts, made very sensitive instruments in electronics, radios, you name it. They had munition factories, and we delivered lots and lots of ammunition, guns, and things to the Germans. I know that. It is one of those things. Money speaks very, very loud and is very powerful. I am sure there were many deals made between the Swiss and the German governments. The same with money. I am sure that the Swiss stacked millions upon millions of Jewish money stolen by the German political figures and stashed it away in the banks in Switzerland. The better part of the population thinks money does not smell, but there are many, many who refer to much of the money that is sitting in Swiss banks as "blood" money. Not because when I say blood they want to show their distain and their contempt for anyone who brings money in that is stained. It does not need to be actually money, but the blood can cover other things than just the physical aspect of it. They know that much dirty money is in Switzerland that came from overthrowing government, for instance, in South America, they know that much of the money came from the Jews, so they call it "blood" money. It is just a term to show that it is something they really did not want to have anything to do with. RA: Did the war itself have anything to do with your coming to America? 118 - 127 - Edited, but still on the tape. RA: Was there a general fear of the Russians among the Swiss after the war? 20 EM: What I am going to say is going to make the Swiss sound like they know it all, but I don't mean it that way. I do have to say that probably the Swiss were in a strange way removed from it, but we were involved at the same time. Probably, the Swiss because of the neutral position they took were more objective. When I say that we had very, very strong misgivings for what happened in Yalta and in Germany, that we handed over part of Germany to the Russians, we were ready to hit the ceiling that the Americans would be so gullible. The Americans did indeed hold their own troops back and let the Russians advance in the east. We could not understand it, and I think historians and around-the-table lay-historians can debate until their noses fall off. We really did not know whether it was right or wrong, or whether it was advisable or not, whether we would have done it or not. The Swiss as such and may be from their point of view of being more realistic and less starry eyed, we felt that the Americans and the English really gave the Russians too much. The Europeans are very, very conscious of the Russian threat,' but they are not has hysterical and "freaked out" over it as some Americans are. To a large extent, I think they have learned to live with it. RA: To conclude this interview, I am going to ask you to tell me a little about your life and your background. EM: I was born in Basel, Switzerland. I went to the public schools and business school. I worked as a secretary. I married, I came to America, and we had five children. We had been in America for three or four years when I started getting very much involved in volunteer work. I worked with the kids out at the Industrial School for seven or eight years as a volunteer. I worked with the physically handicapped at the Gramercy Clinic for approximately fourteen years. I was in Juvenile Court as a volunteer intake officer for 21 three or four years. Due to circumstances within my personal life that changed everything, I am now working at the Dee School as a secretary. 140-146 - Subject deals with political parties. Edited, but still on tape. RA: Did any of the major Swiss political parties take a pro-Nazi stand? EM: Not one of them. RA: Was there a Nazi party at all in Switzerland? EM: Yes there was. RA: Was it strong? EM: No, something like what you have here in America. The subject concluded the interview with the following story: EM: We wanted our dog to be part of it. It was a dog--middle size, black with brown and white markings. He was a beautiful dog. He was very much a part of our family. We were so frustrated at times. We wanted him to learn something. We did not have bones very often because meat and everything was rationed, so whenever we had a bone, be it a dog bone or left-over from a roast, we taught him that when we would say that the bone is from Hitler, he would absolutely refuse to take the bone. Because we had taught him when we started that if we said it was from Hitler, we would say "no, bad, bad" and all kinds of stuff. Looking back now I think it was kind of stupid but anyway we did enjoy it. When we would say the bone is from Churchill, he would jump up and grab the bone. 22 Sometimes we would introduce him to refugees who would come visiting us, we would introduce him to American flyers who came to our home and had dinner with us or spend the night with us, and they all had a lot of fun with him. No matter how much he wanted the bone, when we say it is from Hitler, he would absolutely refuse. RA: Would you say that you family in doing that was an indication of the way most Swiss families felt about the Germans? EM: Yes, definitely, very much so. 153-173 - Edited, but still on tape. This interview was conducted on March 6, 1974 with Mrs. Edith Mueller of Ogden, Utah, at her home. The interviewer was R. Scott Andersen. 23 Evaluation of the Oral History Interview with Mrs. Edith Mueller. Ronand S. Andersen Winter Quarter, 1974 Dr. Sadler The role of Switzerland in World War II has always been an intriguing question to me. Interviewing Mrs. Edith Mueller provided an opportunity to gain some insight on this facet of the war and to learn something about the country itself. Several objectives were present when I decided to undertake this project. Among these were the following: Why did the Germans allow the Swiss to remain the only neutral nation in Continental Europe? How did the Swiss react to the situation created by the war? In what types of activities did the Swiss cooperate with the Nazis? And in general, an "inside" view of the conflict that could in fact, be offered only be an individual that resided in a country, such as Switzerland, which escaped German invasion yet remained involved in the struggle in an indirect fashion. To a certain extent, these basic questions were answered in the interview. Nevertheless, more interviews, both with Mrs. Mueller and other Swiss that were in similar circumstances, would be valuable in pursuing this area of the war. More time to carry out further oral research would have constituted a valuable asset but the short span of the quarter, along with the other work that it required, curtailed arty further investigation of this problem. Besides meeting ray objectives in a limited fashion, this interview was also enlightening in some of the minor facts that it brought out. Among these are the work of the Red Cross in Europe during the war, the problem of Jewish refugees, governmental censorship of the Swiss news media, and some of the general problems faced by a neutral people during a major conflict. The subject, Mrs. Mueller, was an excellent conversationalist and a very charming lady. Only on questions concerning her ex-husband was she reluctant to elaborate on a point. Specifically, these were concerned with the Swiss army. While being aware of the role played by her former husband in the military, I was reluctant to press any questions dealing with this subject because of the personal nature of the issue to Mrs. Mueller, While obviously enjoying the opportunity to express herself on this subject, Mrs. Mueller sometimes exhibited a tendency to stress things that were not relevant to the interview. After receiving her permission, I felt it was necessary to edit certain portions of the conversation. Most of these are located near the end of the interview, when the subject seemed to be getting slightly fatigued. In analyzing the content of the interview it became apparent that the subject wanted to impress upon me her conception of the importance and vitality of the Swiss nation. Obviously, this was a very biased outlook but it can be overlooked when viewed in light of the important data provided by her. As for my own role in this interview, I must admit that I committed a substantial number of mistakes. As an example, during the course of the conversation I inadvertently acknowledged her comments by uttering slightly audible sounds while nodding my head. Only after playing the tape back did I become aware of this absurd mistake. Another flaw was my own tendency to be quite patronizing at certain instances in order to encourage her to continue on a desired point, or to change the course of the conversation. Besides these two fundamental errors, I sometimes failed to lead the course of the conversation in the direction that I wanted it to go. The biographical information of the subject is located near the end of the tape because she was ready to discuss the topic of the interview at the beginning, I included a short family story at the end of the tape because I felt that it illustrated the general outlook of the Swiss during the war. In summary, I found this interview to be an interesting experience and I regret both not being able to pursue the subject matter further because of the time factor, and my own mistakes which, in turn, caused the interview to lack an organized form.