Oral History Program Paula Crittenden Interviewed by Lorrie Rands & Alyssa Kammerman 13 November 2018 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Paula Crittenden Interviewed by Lorrie Rands & Alyssa Kammerman 13 November 2018 Copyright © 2022 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Beyond Suffrage Project was initiated to examine the impact women have had on northern Utah. Weber State University explored and documented women past and present who have influenced the history of the community, the development of education, and are bringing the area forward for the next generation. The project looked at how the 19th Amendment gave women a voice and representation, and was the catalyst for the way women became involved in the progress of the local area. The project examines the 50 years (1870-1920) before the amendment, the decades to follow and how women are making history today. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Crittenden, Paula, an oral history by Lorrie Rands & Alyssa Kammerman, 13 November 2018, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Paula Crittenden Circa 1945 Paula Crittenden Circa 2018 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Paula Crittenden. The interview was conducted on two different days. The first interview was conducted on November 13, 2018, in her home, by Lorrie Rands. Alyssa Kammerman, the audio technician, is present during this interview as well as, Shana Croft and Julie Croft, Paula’s granddaughter in-law and daughter respectively. The second interview was conducted on December 4, 2018. In these interviews Paula discusses her life, her memories of Ogden, and the impact of 19th Amendment. Day I LR: It is November 13, 2018. We are in Morgan, Utah, with Paula Crittenden in her home talking about her life, her stories and her memories for the Women 2020 project at Weber State University. With me is Alyssa Kammerman, Shana Croft, and Julie Croft who are Paula’s grand-daughter in-law and daughter respectively. So Paula, thank you so much for your willingness to sit down, and I forgot to mention, I’m Lorrie. Again, thank you so much for your willingness to sit down and talk with me I really appreciate it. So Paula, let’s start with when and where you were born? PC: I was born in Ogden Utah on December 18, 1925, at home. LR: At home. Do you remember where your home was? PC: I don’t know the number but it was up in 28th street somewhere, up by the mountains. 2 LR: Okay. You said you were born at home. Did your parents ever talk about where you were? Was it on the kitchen table? PC: I was a twin, so I don’t know. I would assume she was in bed, my mother. LR: You were a twin? PC: Yes. LR: So who was born first? PC: I was. LR: You’re the oldest. Did your parents ever talk to you about that day, the day you were born? PC: Probably. I don’t know what they’d talk about. LR: I was just curious if they had ever talked to you about that day, but it’s okay if they didn’t. What was it like growing up with a twin? PC: We were separate. We were never very close twins. LR: Really? PC: Yes, she didn’t look like me, and I didn’t look like her, and we didn’t like the same things. We were friends, you know, sisters, but we were never close like twins sometimes are. LR: Interesting. What school did you go to in Ogden? PC: I went to Lincoln Elementary, Mound Fort Junior High, and Ogden High. LR: Mound Fort Junior High. PC: It’s gone long ago. LR: It is. As you look back on going to school, what is one of the things that you enjoyed the most about school? 3 PC: I liked everything about school. LR: Okay. Was there something in particular that was the most interesting? PC: Gosh, I don’t know. I can’t think of that. Maybe you got the wrong person to interview? LR: No I don’t. I’m just not asking the right questions. So you were born in 1925, talk a little bit about your memories of the Depression. PC: Well, I remember the Depression, but you’d have to ask me something specific. LR: Okay. You remember the Depression. What do you remember? PC: Being poor. LR: What would your mother fix for dinner? PC: Whatever was in the garden that she canned, or rabbits that we raised. Graham crackers and honey and milk for supper. I remember that because I eat graham crackers a lot. LR: You still eat graham crackers? PC: Yes. LR: What did your dad do? PC: He worked as a carpenter, and I call it 2nd Street, used to be the depot, Army, Ogden, I don’t remember what it was called. LR: It was the Defense Depot Ogden, yes. PC: I don’t know where else he worked. He worked, that’s all I know. LR: You say you had a twin. Did you have any other siblings? PC: I was one of nine. LR: What was it like growing up with a large family? 4 PC: Well they were scattered out for twenty-five years, so I didn’t know my older sister very well, cause she was a lot older. I don’t know, I guess it was just like everybody else. LR: Isn’t that a funny question, what was it like, and you’re just thinking that’s the way it was. Alright, so your father worked at the Defense Depot Ogden, what would your mother do? PC: My mother, she worked all her life, too. At first, she used to do remodeling for clothes, when I was a little kid. She did sewing for people, and then she became the head housekeeper for the Ben Lomond Hotel. That’s the last job I think she had. LR: You say her last job was at the Ben Lomond; do you know what she did there, what her duties were? PC: She was in charge of all the maids and making sure things were kept clean. She was the boss. LR: What was her name? PC: Alta Paulson. LR: Alta Paulson. And your father’s name? PC: Lawrence Paulson. LR: Alright. If either of you have a question or anything you’d like to know more about, just chime up. SC: I’ve already learned some things I didn’t know. PC: Really? SC: I didn’t know your mom was the head housekeeper at the Ben Lomond. 5 PC: Yeah, she was for years. SC: That’s pretty cool. JC: Let’s see, and didn’t she make drapes or something? PC: I did. JC: You did? PC: I made drapes for them, for the rooms. LR: So your mother employed you to help, too. Did your mom teach you how to sew? PC: Probably. I don’t know, I’ve been sewing all my life. We had to make all our own clothes, we were poor. LR: Right. And you made your own clothes, as opposed to your mother? PC: Well she did to, but eventually I did. LR: That’s really cool. JC: In fact, some years you made all school clothes. You would make shirts, and you were an excellent seamstress. LR: That’s amazing. SC: How old were you when you did the drapes for the hotel? PC: How old was I? SC: Yeah. Like a teenager? PC: Oh no, I was married. LR: Okay. So your mother worked there for a long time at the Ben Lomond. PC: She did. I don’t remember the date when I did it. SC: You said she did fur coats to, what does that even mean? 6 PC: Well the rich ladies would bring her fur coats to remodel, or they would need hemming or something, and she did all of that. She’d mend them and I remember being forbidden to touch any of them. LR: Sure. That’s really cool, do you remember watching her do that? PC: Yes. She did a lot of that, for a piddly amount of money, cause nobody paid much money in those days for labor. LR: As you were growing up, and living through the Depression and being poor, when do you remember things starting to get better? PC: You know, I don’t know. I don’t know that I remember when they started to get better. I just remember being poor and having to work all my life. LR: Speaking of that, do you remember your first job? PC: Probably at Kress’s. Do you know what Kress’s is? LR: Yeah, I do. PC: That was my first job. LR: What did you do there? PC: I think what I did was stock the counters. They had open counters with little bins on them that you’d have to walk along and slap kids hands for touching things. LR: Do you remember how old you were when you started? PC: Whatever the age was, I think about fourteen. I think there was a minimum age when a kid could go to work. LR: Okay, and this was right before World War Two broke out. PC: Yes. AK: Would you tell me a little bit about what Kress’s is? I’m not familiar. 7 PC: Kress’s? It was a dime store. We called it a ten-cent store, because everything was cheap. SC: Probably like a dollar store. PC: Woolworth, have you ever heard of Woolworth? AK: No, I haven’t. LR: I think the dollar store is the best way. AK: It was more than just food? PC: They didn’t sell food. AK: The bins didn’t have candy in them? PC: They just sold dollar store stuff. JC: And didn’t they have candy in those bins? AK: Candy bins, yeah. I was wondering with the bins. Thank you. LR: What are your memories of Pearl Harbor Day? PC: I can remember exactly what happened Pearl Harbor Day, because it was the first time I ever heard my mother use a swear word. She was doing something with my hair, and my boyfriend called up and he said “The Japs just bombed Pearl Harbor.” My mother said, “Oh my God, we’re at war.” I’d never heard her swear before. But I remember that. That’s about the only thing I remember, is when my boyfriend, who was Lester Fronk… SC: Lester Fronk? PC: Lester Fronk. You better not put that down. LR: It’s already down. But you can take it out if you want. PC: It’s alright, he’s dead, but we were friends for a long time. 8 LR: So you said your mother was doing your hair. It was on a Sunday- were you going to go to church? PC: I don’t remember what I was doing, but I remember she was doing something with my hair. LR: What was it like the next day when you went to school? Do you remember? PC: I don’t remember. LR: Did you go to Ogden High? PC: I did. LR: So you were one of the first classes, then, at Ogden High? PC: Yes. LR: What do you remember about, do you remember any of the parties or dances that they had during high school? PC: Some of them. Most of them. LR: What do you remember about them? PC: Well every Friday night at the churches, they had a live band. I can’t remember his name now, but he’d go around to different wards every Friday night, and play so you could dance. There was a lot of dancing. People just ballroom dancing. I’d forgotten that. That was one of the fun things, the Friday Dances. LR: Friday Dances. Did you ever go to the White City or the Berthana? PC: I went to the White City. In fact my boyfriend worked at the bar up there. They didn’t sell liquor, but he was a bartender for soft drinks, and I used to go up there and sit there with him. LR: And watch everyone dance? 9 PC: Watch everybody dance. LR: Do you remember some of the music that played? PC: It was Glen Miller and Frank Sinatra, and whatever music they had. In fact, I thought of them because both of them came there live, when I was back there with my boyfriend. I got to see that Frank Sinatra, little skinny guy, but he was such a good singer. LR: Yep, he was. That’s really cool that you got to see him live. PC: Yeah. They had a lot of live bands come up at that time to the White City. JC: Didn’t Dad work there? Wasn’t he the bartender? PC: He was the bartender. SC: That’s what I was gonna ask. PC: That was gramps. My Paul. LR: Was this during World War Two, or after? PC: Probably both. LR: So you met your would-be husband during World War Two? PC: I think it was going on. JC: Well you probably went to high school with him, because you both went to Ogden High. You might have been in the same class. LR: What year did you get married? PC: 1943 or 1944. I don’t remember. Sometime around then. LR: Right. Was he ever drafted? PC: He enlisted in the submarines. LR: Crazy. I don’t know if I could do that, be in a submarine. 10 PC: He loved it. SC: That was pretty early. Subs weren’t quite common yet, were they? PC: No, he loved it though. They were great. They were a bunch of nice people, too. They were treated really good. LR: Yes they were. They were fed well and treated well. How long was he in the service? PC: About ten years. LR: So he made a career out of it? PC: He was going to, but then they were going to ship him to China or someplace, so he got out. JC: Let’s see, and he would have been in the Korean War. PC: He was in the Korean War, and World War Two. LR: And what was his name? PC: Paul Crittenden. SC: Paul and Paula. PC: Born on the same day. LR: Really? JC: Same year, same day. SC: Same hospital, I guess, was he born in the hospital or was he born at home, too? PC: He was born in the hospital, I was born at home. So we didn’t cross paths. LR: So how did you meet him? How did you meet Paul? PC: I don’t know, probably going to school. 11 LR: Okay. Julie, right? Mentioned that you probably went, had a class with him maybe? PC: I don’t, I don’t really remember. He played football and all the fun stuff, and I liked creative writing, so our paths didn’t cross in the schoolroom. LR: Alright. You were married 1943 or 1944, where did you guys first live? PC: Let’s see, I think we just lived in a hotel room, cause he was in the service. LR: Okay. AK: Where were you in your family as far as the line of kids? PC: The sixth of the nine kids. I was sixth in line. There was Ruby, Don, Helen, Wade, Iris, and then me and Joye, we were twins, and then Ruth and Lawrence. I can remember that much. AK: That’s great. Thank you, and with World War Two, do you remember if you helped with the war effort at all? Like Victory Gardens, collecting scrap metal, or any USO activities that you helped with? PC: I’m sure I did, but we suffered a lot. Sugar was rationed and I remember we used to draw a line up the back of our leg here for a seam on the stocking, because we couldn’t buy nylons. Nobody went bare-legged, till we found out you could put color on your leg and draw a line up with a pencil, and it looked like stockings. Funny I forgot all about that stuff. LR: So they rationed shoes, they rationed meat… PC: Leather was rationed, and nylon. Anything to do with the war. LR: Do you remember the ration coupon books? 12 PC: I do. I know that a lot of people gave the workers in different places their cigarette coupons, because nobody smoked that I knew of, in my family. So we’d give them to somebody for a present or for whatever they could give us. LR: That was very common. A lot of people would give their coffee rations to someone else for sugar, to swap things like that. That was very common. SC: Were you drinking coffee back then? PC: Nope, I didn’t’ start drinking coffee until I was old. Like about twenty. SC: So where did Gramps go? Was he in the Pacific theater? PC: Both. He was over in Japan for quite a while, and then they went down through the Panama Canal, and over to New London, Connecticut, where he was for quite a while. LR: Did he ever go to Europe? PC: I don’t know where they went. He was under the ocean. LR: How often were you able to communicate with him? PC: Well I went and stayed there, in New London, Connecticut. I went there and got a job working for a lobster fisherman. I don’t remember what I did, but he used to furnish me with lobsters and cook them for me, too. LR: So was your husband training at that time, or was he deployed? PC: He was through training. He was on the submarine the USS Sturgeon. LR: Okay. Do you know how long you were there in New London? PC: Oh, four or five years, I guess. I’m sure that we were there after the war ended. LR: So what do you remember about V-J Day, the day the war was done? 13 PC: I remember, I was in New York City, and I don’t know why. But that’s where I was, probably just traveled through or something. But I remember somebody saying the war is over and everybody was screaming their lungs out. It didn’t even do anything for me. I don’t know why. It’s hard for me to remember what my emotions were. LR: No, I’m putting you on the spot, and it’s hard when you’re put on the spot to recall things. When was your first child born? PC: 1945? 1946? So I had one. LR: When the war ended and you’re in New London, you said you were there for a few years. Did he get out of the service at that point, or did you move to another base? PC: We moved to San Francisco, where he was stationed. He stayed in the service for about ten years I think. LR: So in San Francisco, were you working or just taking care of your family? PC: Just drawing my pay from the government, and that’s all. LR: Drawing your pay from the government. What does that mean? PC: Well, when your spouse was in the service, they gave you an allotment. LR: Right, I remember it now. You said that you were sewing all your life, would you maybe take in some work sewing for other people? PC: No. LR: You just sewed for yourself and your kids? 14 PC: Yes, I did all that, but I never did it for money, except for my mother, when she was the housekeeper at the Hotel Ben Lomond. She conned me into making drapes for her. LR: Right. Did she pay you for them? PC: Oh yeah, that’s the con. LR: So you’re in San Francisco. When did you leave San Francisco? PC: I can’t remember that. SC: There was Oregon at some point, wasn’t there? PC: Well we lived in Vancouver, Washington for ten years. I think it was San Francisco, and then he went to Portland to train submarine officers. But that was after the war. SC: I just remember Julie was born in Oregon. PC: Yeah she was. SC: Where was Lynn born? PC: I think Lynn was born in Ogden. LR: How many children did you have? PC: I had five. LR: Five. Okay. So the first one was born during the war. PC: It was Paul then Lynn. LR: So Julie’s one of the babies? PC: And then I had a baby who died. LR: So you weren’t in Washington for very long, about ten years you said? Did you work while you were in Washington? 15 PC: I’m sure I did. I worked for the power company and I’m trying to think of the name of it. SC: Was that when you started doing office work? PC: Yes. I’m trying to think of the power company’s name. I started in Vancouver, Washington, which is just across the river from Portland. That’s where we lived, actually. LR: Do you remember what you did at the power company? PC: I did a lot of things. I collected delinquent bills and worked in the office. We were a little branch office where I worked, and I did everything you’d do in a branch office. LR: How many women worked there with you? PC: Let’s see, there was me, Amelia and Butch, and the three women, and Leonard, Ray and one other guy. Three men and three women. Does that answer your question? SC: I’m curious how the men treated the women in the office? PC: They treated us good. SC: Like Mad Men, where the men were really sexist? PC: Well I never worked around men like that. Women had a role, and I don’t think women ever took a man’s job. There was two ranks- men and women. Men were the upper class and women were the lower class, looking back on it. LR: Do you remember how that looked, men the upper class, women the lower class? Were you treated different? PC: No, not where I worked. 16 LR: How were men the upper class? PC: Well I didn’t mean the upper class—well, it probably was upper class. I took a guy’s job, for instance, a guy named Lynn Cottrell. He made, I can’t remember, say 15,000 dollars, and when I took his job I got ten. I don’t remember the figure, but it was quite a bit less money. LR: So they cut your salary down? PC: Because I was a woman. I didn’t protest, it was just the way things were. LR: Did you even think you had a right to protest? PC: Nope. Kind of insipid, wasn’t it, the way things were? SC: Was that like in the fifties or sixties, Granny, when was that? PC: I can’t remember the date, don’t ask me for any dates. LR: Were you still in Washington and working at the power company in Portland when that happened? PC: We were living in Vancouver, Washington which was just across the river. We lived out there quite a few years. LR: Was that the only job you had out in Oregon, was the power company? PC: I worked for the housing authority. And don’t ask me what their name was, because I can’t remember. LR: Do you remember what you did for the housing authority? PC: Signed up new customers, and signed out old customers. I don’t remember all of it, kind of everything to do with housing. JC: Did you work for the government then? Was it a government job? PC: No it wasn’t. 17 LR: Was your husband okay with your working? PC: Sure. LR: Okay, well did he encourage you to work or was it more of a necessity? PC: Well, he didn’t have anything to say. If I wanted to work, I’d work, and I don’t think he cared. Probably enjoyed the extra money. LR: Did you work any other place in the Portland area, or just those two places? PC: I worked for the power company and the housing authority, and I think that’s all. That’s been lots of years ago. AK: I was curious, did they have some sort of a daycare for workers that had children, or were the kids all at school while you were working? PC: I had a babysitter that came, a colored lady that lived around the corner that came every day for twenty-five dollars a week, which was cheap. She came to my house and her name was Lizzie May Overall. It just popped into my mind. Her husband was James T. Overall. LR: They lived around the corner, you said? PC: We lived in McLaughlin heights. Vancouver, Washington. it was kind of a war-years housing. LR: Was it segregated? PC: No. SC: So how did you meet her? PC: Lizzie May? I was just trying to think that very thing. Well, I got a job, and I was looking for somebody, and I think somebody recommended her or she had an ad. 18 LR: That’s really cool, though, that you found daycare or someone to watch your kids. PC: There was no day care then, like they have now, she came to my house. LR: So you were in Vancouver, Washington probably through the 1950s. PC: Don’t ask me the dates, because I don’t remember. LR: So were you still in Washington when President Kennedy was killed? PC: Just trying to think, I think so. SC: I was wondering was Gramps was in the Korean War? LR: Korean War was the early 1950s. PC: We were still out there. SC: Were you in Vancouver for the Korean War? PC: Yes. LR: So that makes sense. Was he gone a lot, your husband, during that time? Was he deployed, or was he just training? PC: Sometimes, but for several years they just trained people on the submarine. LR: Okay. I know you don’t remember dates, but from Vancouver, where did you move to? What was your next place of residence after Vancouver? PC: I think we came back here. My husband went to work for the railroad. They sent him a letter and told him his seniority was still in effect if he wanted to come back to work, cause all the years he was in the service his seniority had gone on. So he decided it was worth coming back. LR: So he was working for the railroad before he enlisted? PC: Yes, for just a short time. But when you went into the service they did that for you, and he didn’t know it at that time. 19 LR: That’s really amazing, that he still managed to keep that. PC: Well it gave him about fifteen years head start on anybody else. LR: Yes it did. That’s actually amazing. Do you remember where you lived when you moved back here to Ogden? PC: I don’t. JC: Didn’t you live at Grandma Crittenden’s on Grant? Are you talking about after the war? PC: Yeah, we went from Connecticut to San Francisco to Washington. Is that right? JC: You know, I’m not sure. PC: She wasn’t thought of then. SC: Cause you were born in Washington, right? JC: Astoria, Oregon. PC: That was a naval hospital. LR: There’s a base there still. JC: You did live on Grant Avenue at one time, but I don’t know if that would have been right when you came back. LR: Did you eventually move into a home in Ogden? PC: I was trying to think, I think we just came up here, found this place. LR: Well it’s not that far from Ogden. PC: Nope, we wanted to find a place in the country, and when we came here there was this little tiny house here with two trees out in front. We liked it, so we inquired within, and they wanted to sell it. So we bought ten acres and the house for 9,000 dollars. 20 LR: That’s amazing. PC: That’s how cheap it was out here. In fact, my mother in law said, “Why are you moving your family out to that godforsaken hole?” SC: Was the highway in yet? PC: No, it was the old highway. SC: That loops around the horseshoe bend that you can still kind of see? PC: Yeah, it was there. Then you had, across the river bridge was down by… JC: Down by lower Peterson. You know where the old church is in Peterson? There was a bridge at the end of that road that crossed the river. One of those metal bridges, like you see down at the mouth of the canyon? PC: That opened up to let the train go through or something. We had to stop for the train. LR: Did you build the house then, or just move into that little house that was here? PC: We moved into the little house and it’s still there. It’s the kitchen. LR: Okay, when you were first here, did you get a job too, or did you stay here and work at home? PC: I worked all the time, and I can’t remember where I first went to work. JC: Let’s see… you worked at Marquardt, Thiokol, Browning was your last job, but I don’t remember what your first job was. PC: I think it was Marquardt, because they had just moved into the area. LR: Do you remember what you did there? PC: Well when I first started, they had a little office on 24th street, right by the hotel. I did everything, literally everything. 21 LR: Everything. So Marquardt, I’m not familiar with that. PC: They made rockets, like Thiokol. They were the same as Thiokol. LR: When you said you did everything, was that more than just being a secretary? PC: Yeah, everything that had to be done in an office. SC: It’s almost like you were an office manager. PC: Well yeah, cause there was only a couple of us. LR: Do you remember how long you worked at Marquardt? PC: A long time, other than that, I can’t tell you. JC: You probably worked all the time we were kids. PC: I did. JC: You probably quit in about 1970. PC: I did. LR: You said you worked at Browning. PC: That was the last job I had. LR: What did you do for them? PC: Well, they just had a little office over here and I was in charge of the file room. LR: Was it their sporting goods store? PC: No, it wasn’t a store. It was where they brought the guns and stuff in from Europe. JC: Then you kind of did secretarial work. You didn’t work for John Val Browning, did you? PC: He was the big boss, but I didn’t personally, no. LR: So you did the office manager type stuff for Browning, too? 22 PC: I was in charge of the file room, kind of the same stuff. LR: Okay. SC: Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of new things. I didn’t know you lived in San Francisco. PC: Well didn’t you? SC: No! PC: I loved San Francisco. It was cool. LR: What was cool about it? PC: I don’t know, everything. We didn’t have a car, I’d have to walk. I’d walk down to the bay, and I can’t remember all that we did, but it was fun. I liked it. Almost as much as I liked Connecticut. LR: Two extremes though. SC: Chinatown? PC: Chinatown was fun. My mother in law told me I had to visit Chinatown. SC: Did you eat anything there? PC: Yeah but I don’t remember what I ate. LR: So I don’t know if you realize, but we’ve been doing this for an hour. PC: Really? That’s why my brain is so taxed. LR: But you’re doing a good job. I actually have a lot more questions I’d like to ask, because we’ve only gotten about halfway through your life. Would you like to keep going or for us to come back? PC: I think I’d rather you came back. LR: I’m okay with that, because there’s still a lot of questions I have. 23 Day II AK: Today is December 4, 2018. We are with Paula Crittenden, continuing her story. My name’s Alyssa Kammerman and I’ll be conducting the interview. I’m here with Lorrie Rands, Shana Croft, and Julie Croft. Last time we were here we talked about your time working with Browning Guns, and I just wanted to continue with that story. You mentioned that there were a lot of firearms that came from Belgium. Was it more a warehouse, or a store? PC: Well, Browning makes guns in Belgium, and then they shipped them here. I don’t know if they stored them there, but I worked there for years. It was just the executive offices where I worked. SC: They still have the office over there. What’s the armory that’s behind it? It’s not, the old Browning armory everybody calls it, it’s like a big factory? PC: Well they made bows and arrows, too. So they might have done that. AK: Okay, and you mentioned you were a secretary while you worked there in the executive office. PC: That’s all women could do in those days was be a secretary. AK: So no chance of promotions for women? PC: I was about as high as you could get. Which wasn’t very high. LR: Do you remember that changing? Were you there when that started to change? PC: When women started getting paid as much as men? LR: Well, that hasn’t changed, but when women could actually have a different job besides just a secretary. 24 PC: Well, no. I was designated the secretary, but I didn’t do much secretary work. We had to type, and you didn’t have the modern conveniences you have now like texting. JC: Like computers. PC: Computers, yeah. AK: You mentioned you didn’t do much secretary work. What did you do? What did your job consist of? PC: Let’s see, I don’t really remember exactly what I did. I did just whatever they needed in the office part. SC: Kind of sounds like an office manager how you described it. Is that what you did? Did you like run the office? PC: Yeah, there was only one office. SC: Did the secretaries report to you? Were you the boss of the other secretaries, or…? PC: No. Every guy had a secretary, a personal secretary. But I wasn’t the personal secretary to anybody, yeah, I guess an office manager would probably be the best description. LR: So that was the last job you had at Browning? PC: Yes, then I retired and became a lazy bum. LR: So, forgive me Alyssa, I know I’m butting in, but did you catch that moose after you retired, or were you still working when you got the moose? PC: Let’s see, I got the moose about thirty years ago, so I was probably still working. How long ago did I retire? 25 JC: Oh, you were retired. You retired in probably the late 1970s I think. SC: Were you working when Jed was born, or did you quit? PC: You know I think Jed’s being born was when I quit. JC: It was around there, but it could have been a little bit later. SC: Maybe when they got back from Germany or something? PC: Yeah, that’s right. 1970s was when he was born. So that was why I probably remember it, cause I quit my job and acquired a little grandson that I adored. AK: So you mentioned there was a good story behind getting the moose. Is that correct? PC: Well, not really. We were just looking for a moose, and he walked out in front of me and dared me to shoot him. SC: Where was it? PC: Up the road between Whitney and what was that other road called, Julie? JC: Gold hill. LR: How many permits did they give out for moose that year? PC: Just one. LR: And you were the one who you drew it? PC: I drew the permit. The only permit in the family that ever got drawn, and I just happened to luck into a beautiful moose. LR: Yes you did. JC: They may have given more permits in the state, didn’t they? PC: Oh yeah. JC: But in her family, she’s the only one that’s ever had a bull moose permit. 26 LR: That’s really cool. PC: Well, when I drew out, I put in for years and years. Three hundred dollars an application, every year, and nobody ever drew out. But I lucked out, and then I lucked into a huge moose that was a good one for a change. LR: So were you alone, or did you have your family with you? PC: My husband was with me. AK: Do you remember what kind of gun you used? PC: .30-.06 Browning that I used for everything. SC: Do we have that gun now? PC: I gave it to Jed. SC: That’s what I thought. PC: It was an automatic. JC: Wasn’t it one of the first automatics Browning came out with? PC: Number twenty-three or twenty-six. It was one of the first, when they first started to make the automatic. It was a good gun, I loved it. Shot a lot of things. AK: Have you always enjoyed hunting? PC: I loved hunting. It was the funnest thing in the world. I sure do miss it. LR: Who taught you to hunt? JC: Probably your husband. PC: Well I’d go with my husband. Before we ever got married a hundred years ago, we’d go on dates and we’d go hunting. Rabbits or something. 27 SC: Who stole chickens, didn’t you get chickens on a date or something? I vaguely have a memory of a story about chickens. Or Paul and his brother, did they do something with chickens? JC: You know, that could have been Lynn or my brother. They used to call it having a chickaree, and they’d go out, and I guess get chickens and cook them. I don’t know, did you guys do that ever? PC: Chickaree isn’t like that. I think a chickaree is something to do with when someone gets married and you go break things up. But I don’t know. SC: I’ve never heard that word. PC: Yeah, that’s Peterson talk. AK: Okay, so you retired from the Browning gun company, and you said you did a lot of hunting. What were some of your other hobbies that you enjoyed? JC: Okay, I’ll tell you a few hobbies that you will think of, soon as I mention it. You were always cooking, and this is even before you quit work. We had a cow out here in the barnyard, my dad worked on the railroad, and Mom actually took care of it. You’d go milk the cow in the morning before work. PC: Before I went to work. JC: Sometimes, or my sisters or my brother maybe, and you would make homemade cheese and homemade butter. PC: Cheese curds and butter. Cottage cheese. JC: You tried yogurt. PC: I did! And it was good. SC: Jed’s talked about the butter. 28 PC: The butter was really good, and the cheese curds were as good as any you could buy, once I learned to cook them and drain them and everything. Took me a long time. SC: You always had an amazing garden. PC: Yeah, I did have a good garden. JC: You did lots of canning, but you did that even before you quit work, and you had a cow. PC: That’s right, I’d have to get up and milk the cow before I went to work. Go out, milk the cow, come back to take a shower to get the stink off. AK: Who taught you how to make cheese? PC: I taught myself. LR: I love that. I just love it. PC: I think I got some instruction from the extension service on how to make it, and it was just trial and error, because it took a long time to get where I could make good cheese. But it was good. AK: That’s fascinating. Do you remember some of the things you had to do to make the cheese? PC: Do I remember? Oh yeah. You had to heat the milk up and pasteurize it, the cream, and then I keep trying to think what it’s called, some kind of lactic acid. SC: Was it rennet? PC: It could have been rennet, I can’t remember if it was or not. Anyway, it was lactic acid, which you put in there with the water clabber, or the milk clabber, and I just had it down to a science. 29 LR: Were there any other things that you would do? You had your own cow, and you made all this product from it, what else would you do, because it looks like you were very self-sufficient? PC: We were. I raised a garden, and froze vegetables, and… SC: You had turkeys. JC: They raised chickens. PC: We raised turkeys and chickens. JC: When they didn’t have money, they ate deer. Deer or elk. PC: We lived on elk for years. JC: Then you started raising a cow to butcher, and my dad would butcher one every year. So you were pretty self-sufficient. You made lots of really good bread. PC: I was a good bread maker. SC: Best toast I’ve ever had in my life, Granny’s toast. I don’t know what it is. JC: It’s the slathered butter. PC: The homemade butter. Well I used to salt the butter heavily, and I think that’s why people liked it, cause it had a lot of flavor. AK: Would you need to get permits for you elk and deer hunting? PC: Oh yeah. You always have to have a permit. I never poached. SC: It’s easy to get, though. Wouldn’t you guys get depredation permits or stuff like that? You never had problems getting elk and deer? PC: Well, there was a time, where elk permits, you had to draw out. Not everyone could buy them. JC: Actually, elk weren’t even really around here when I was young? 30 PC: They were planted. JC: In the 70s, there were no elk here that we ever saw, or over in Enterprise. I think they may have shipped them in or something. I don’t remember, but probably the 1980s or 1990s was when they brought them in. We probably mostly ate deer, I don’t know that you ever hunted elk before, like in your younger days. SC: When did you get the elk on our wall at home, the one you gave us? PC: Let’s see, that came from Wyoming. I think. It is a big one. We used to hunt up there every year, because we could go up and hunt at Paul’s, my son. He had an outfit, and we’d go up and buy an out of state permit and hunt up there. Always sure of getting something good up there. LR: As I’ve been listening today, I’m realizing that you ran and oversaw the house, and you took care of everything here. You were the big cheese. PC: You mean more than my husband? He was the bigger cheese. LR: Well, he wasn’t home as much, though. You were here, and I’m looking at this as there’s this really strong powerful woman who raised her children, and took care of a cow and worked every day, and still managed to raise a family and do everything. I want to make sure that you understand how amazing that is. PC: Well I never thought of myself as a strong, powerful woman. LR: Well, that’s what I’m saying. Also around when you were retiring was when the national movement was happening for equal rights for women. Did that touch the small community here, that movement? PC: Well, I don’t think so. Didn’t touch where I worked. They didn’t have equal rights. I took a job from a guy that made more money and I got his job and I didn’t make 31 as much money, just because I was a woman. We didn’t fight for it, either, women didn’t fight to get it. I remember, when I worked over at Browning’s, John Val Browning, who owns the company, came around once when women started to wear pants. He wrote a memo to all the women that worked for him, that he would permit us to wear pants if he approved of them. So we had to model them for him. JC: Did they all have to be pant suits? PC: I mean, that was a wrong thing to say, because we actually didn’t model for him, but he had to give his approval to everything we wore. That’s how strong the men and women relationship was. Women didn’t have any rights. SC: When did that start changing? When did you notice that changing? PC: Well it started changing about 1970, cause I quit when Jed was born. JC: I was out of high school. In about 1971, they allowed girls to wear pants to our high school, I remember we had to wear dresses to school. SC: Is that kind of behind the national trend? PC: That’s what everybody was saying, we weren’t unique in anything like that. SC: Weren’t behind or anything. PC: No. AK: Did you see any changes in health care at all throughout your life, for instance, when you had your babies, did you have them at home or in a hospital? PC: In a hospital. I wasn’t behind that much. I was born at home, but my babies were born in the hospital. 32 AK: Okay. I know some people had babies at home as late as the 1960s, that’s why I was curious. LR: Was your husband allowed to be in the room when your babies were born? PC: I don’t know if they were or not, but I wouldn’t have had him. I wanted privacy. SC: I remember you telling me once how they used to knock women out to have the babies. PC: Knock them out? SC: Yeah, like put them to sleep. PC: Well, they’d hold some ether over your nose, and I can remember that when you were having a pain, you’d suck in the ether, but if you were quick and could grab their hand and hold it, you could get a good whiff of it. No, they were crude. AK: Doctors, were they all male, or were there some female doctors as well? PC: I don’t remember any female doctors. JC: Do you remember when you had your first female doctor? PC: You know, I don’t remember exactly. I had one to myself. Kathleen DeRemer, twenty years ago, maybe. AK: Okay. Let’s see. And I’m sorry if this is too personal, but do you remember anything about when the birth control pill came out in the 1960s, any kind of reaction to that? PC: If I had had a birth control pill when I was having babies, I’d never have had any. [laughing] They didn’t have anything, except abstinence that worked. They had a diaphragm you could put up in you, supposedly, but that never did work. 33 AK: Interesting. Do you remember the reactions at all, when the birth control pill did come out? PC: No. When the birth control came I was through in the baby having stage. SC: Did it change anything for women, do you think? PC: The birth control pill? Heck yes. It made sex enjoyable. AK: Awesome, thank you. LR: I love that. That is the best response, I think. AK: So as your kids started growing up and getting older, did you have a lot of your grandkids living pretty close to where you were? PC: Some of them, yeah, they lived here by me. Here in Ogden. AK: Did you have a lot of family things with your extended family as time went on? PC: Yes. AK: Did you take any of your grandkids hunting with you, or teach your kids how to hunt? PC: Well, my husband and I used to go hunting, and we didn’t like to take any kids. LR: That’s a lot of work. Taking kids. PC: But, Julie would. JC: Deer hunting was a serious business. It wasn’t just to go out and have fun. They were serious about hunting, and you didn’t make noise, you didn’t talk, so mostly little kids never went. PC: Except you. JC: Just me, but I never said anything anyway. 34 PC: We put her on the back of my horse. She was good though, she just went with us everywhere. One of the Crittenden brothers brought some guys from Hooper, and we just told him he could never come with us again, because they talked. It ruined it, the whole hunt. We didn’t like strangers around. SC: Jed would go too, though, wouldn’t he? PC: Yeah, Jed went all the time with us. SC: Cause he was probably pretty quiet too? PC: Yeah, he was good. LR: When your kids were younger, where did they go to elementary school? PC: Morgan. LR: Would you drive them or would they take the bus? PC: They’d catch the bus. I’d walk them down to the corner or drive them down to the corner where they’d catch the bus. LR: Were they all in elementary school at the same time? PC: No, they’re quite a ways… JC: Let’s see, I am seven years younger than my sister Lynn, so they were gone when I was still home. PC: The school up here was little though, they had the elementary school and the high school. LR: So what would you do with them after school to keep them entertained? PC: Tell them to go outside and play. What else? LR: That’s different from what it is today. 35 PC: Much different. That’s what I can’t understand, when the kids bothered us in my generation, you just told them to go play, and they did. They had an imagination, course, they don’t have to have an imagination now, with the devices there are. LR: So as your kids got older, and they started to leave the house, what would you do after you raised your kids and you retired? PC: I don’t really know. I know I was never bored. SC: I know what you did. You read. You gardened, you read. PC: That’s right, I was an avid reader, that’s true, and I’d forgotten that. I don’t know how I could forget, but I lost my eyesight, and that ruined my whole life cause I couldn’t read anymore. I’m glad to have you sharing! SC: Well we used to read together, we used to read some of the same books, Game of Thrones, we’d lend each other books, and she’d give me some of her westerns, because I love to read too. That was probably the first thing we clicked with, when Liam was a baby. I’d come over here when we first moved to Morgan a couple of times a week, and you’d hold Liam. You’d hold him the whole time, it would be the first time in days I didn’t have to hold him, and we’d drink coffee and talk about books, politics, and news. PC: Yeah, we did do a lot, picking a part the world. SC: We solved all the world’s problems. We did, just no one would listen to us. JC: Well, and you did some other stuff too when you quit working, you took up crocheting. You made afghans, and I think that was after you quit work, and you started doing quilts. But you did do a lot of those afghans. 36 PC: That was before I ever did quilts, though. Crocheting was not my favorite thing. I’m just somebody that likes to do something with my hands. Like pull a part Kleenexes in my pocket. JC: When Dad was home, he and Mom would go in the mountains and get logs and you’d help him get firewood to sell. PC: He’d get fence logs, or fence posts, or rails and we used to go up once I knew he was coming home, I’d pack everything up and we’d take off for the mountains. We spent all our time up there JC: You took Jed a lot, right? PC: Yeah, he loved to go. When he was two, we started taking him. AK: Would you be camping during that time, like tent camping? PC: Well, first we moved a little tent up there, then we had a little building we took up, then we built a cabin. Had fifteen acres up there, where we spent lots of time. AK: You’d bring the wood down from the cabin? PC: Yes. AK: Would you use your horses for that, or did you use a truck? PC: We didn’t use horses, we had a tractor. JC: Well, when you first started getting poles. They are poles for fence rails, and they just cut them by hand and loaded them on a big truck. Later, you also cut logs to build our homes. PC: We used the Max Robinson sawmill to cut them into boards. JC: Then Dad sold firewood, poles, and posts. That’s when Jed also worked for him. 37 PC: That’s right. That’s how Jed paid for a lot of his college, working up there in the woods. He was a good worker, too. That’s Shana’s husband. My grandson. JC: You’d do a lot, too. Dad would cut them, and you guys would drag them and load them up. LR: Julie, if you don’t mind, let me ask you a question. As you look back on growing up, how do you think your mom… JC: Was Mom the big boss? LR: Yeah, she doesn’t see herself as this strong powerful woman, how would you describe her as you looked back? JC: Well actually, my dad was a strong figure, but he wasn’t home all the time because his railroad job took him away. Mom is very independent and you always have been. You took care of everything when he was gone. Mom was always self-sufficient, our family was self-sufficient, but when Dad was gone, you just did everything. I don’t know that my dad ever went into a grocery store. He did nothing like that. You did all the cooking, he would probably have never known how to open a can. PC: He didn’t. JC: And he wouldn’t if he could. Yeah, you pretty much did everything, at least inside and probably the yard. Well Dad did the yard, too. PC: My husband always said anything inside the fence is women’s work. JC: He had cows and kind of a farm. Then he went to work on the railroad and did firewood. But you just did everything with him. Then when he was gone, you did everything else that he didn’t do. 38 PC: And everything he did. LR: So what did you learn from her example, as you raised your own family? JC: I’m just sorry she can’t cook now, she would cook dinner about three in the afternoon for Dad and my kids would come over for dinner. She kept us fed. My mom sewed her whole life and sewed all our school clothes. I don’t know how to sew a button. PC: That’s because you never had to. JC: I liked the outdoor stuff. My sister learned all the good stuff like sewing, quilting, cooking, and crafting. I was more a tomboy. LR: Nothing wrong with that. JC: Now that Mom doesn’t cook, we’re in sad shape. I keep telling Shana cook something extra. PC: Thank goodness for Panda Express. SC: I just remember you always talking about feeding the neighbors. JC: She fed the neighbors. We are the neighbors. SC: Yeah, she’s a great cook. I use a whole bunch of your recipes. PC: I loved to cook, what I liked the most about cooking was doing something new. Not the same old recipe. AK: Did you have a lot of neighbors up here when you first moved or was it pretty isolated? PC: It’s always been just our house here and Julie, and the one up on the hill here. But we didn’t associate with them, because we didn’t like them. We had issues. AK: So are the rest of these neighbors pretty recent? 39 PC: We’re the last one this way. AK: So what do you enjoy doing now? PC: Well, I enjoy watching the Golden State Warriors. LR: Basketball fan. PC: I love it. That’s all I do, I don’t do anything. AK: That’s great though, basketball is fun. I think I’m ready to ask my final question. Are there any last memories any of you would like to share before we close? LR: We’ve been doing this for almost an hour again, Paula. PC: Really? And I’ve never shut my mouth. AK: That’s the way we like it. Are there any final memories you’d like to share, or either of you would like it? PC: I can’t think of anything, you have to ask me specific questions if you want to find something out. Even though I can talk up a storm if I get started. AK: You’ve done an excellent job, we really appreciate your time. As a final question, I just wanted to ask. Is there anything that you would like to leave as your legacy to your family? Specifically the women in your family like your daughters and granddaughters on how to make it through this life, how to be an independent woman? PC: I don’t know how. AK: I don’t think that’s true. JC: Even though you can’t see good, you’re still independent. PC: That’s my problem, when I lost my vision—I can see pretty good, but when I couldn’t read. Reading is so important, I think it’s the most important thing in the 40 world. If you can read, you can escape to anywhere you want to go, or nowhere, or just have fun. But when you can’t see to read, it takes all the pleasure out of the written word. SC: I think Granny’s just amazing. JC: Yeah, she did it all. PC: Really? SC: Yes, are you kidding me? PC: Just cause I did physical things. JC: She did all of the womanly things and did them good, and the men things too. SC: And did them good. LR: I love that! AK: Well thank you so much for letting us come and visit with you, it’s been really amazing. Your story is excellent, so we’re so thankful we’ve been able to hear it. PC: I hope you got something out of it. LR: Oh, we did. You don’t need to worry about that.