Community Oral History Sarah McClellan and Hazel Jones Interviewed by Alyssa Kammerman 17 October 2023 RootsBridge LLC Mission Statement RootsBridge cultivates connection in communities and families through the transformative power of storytelling. Our mission is to compassionately record life histories, honor unique experiences and promote empathy through shared narratives. By encouraging individuals to step into another's shoes, we cultivate deeper bonds between storyteller and hearer. In the communities we serve, we foster a sense of unity and compassion. We are driven by our passion for providing a platform for marginalized voices to ensure that every story is heard and none are diminished. We believe in a community where everyone feels connected and finds a sense of belonging. Project Description The Union Station Centennial oral history project is a companion to the Museums at Union Station’s “Heart of Ogden” exhibit, which commemorates the 100-year anniversary of the opening of the current Union Station building on November 22, 1924. In honor of the centennial anniversary, Ogden City contracted with oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC to collect fifteen oral histories from community members who shared memories associated with the Union Station in Ogden. The interviews encompass the 1930s to the present day, thus documenting the period when Union Station was actively functioning as a train station and its subsequent transformation into a museum and cultural center. Community members interviewed included former railroad employees, Union Station employees, residents of Ogden, city employees, and museum volunteers. The diverse range of interviewees reflects the diversity of Ogden and provides a comprehensive view of Union Station’s impact on the community as a cultural hub and a place of shared history. ~ Oral History Description ~ An oral history is the spoken account of historic events in one’s life from the unique and partial perspective of the narrator. It is a primary source and unique interpretation of one’s lived experience. Rights Management This work is the property of RootsBridge LLC and The Museums at Ogden Union Station. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching, and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text / as long as credit is given to RootsBridge LLC and Ogden Union Station. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: McClellan, Sarah, and Hazel Jones, an oral history by Alyssa Kammerman (RootsBridge LLC), 17 October 2023, Centennial Oral History Project, Museums at Union Station, Ogden, UT. Oral History Interview October 17, 2023 Interviewer: Alyssa Kammerman Interviewees: Sarah McClellan and Hazel Jones Abstract: This is an Oral History Interview with Sarah McClellan and Hazel Jones, conducted October 17, 2023, for the 100 year anniversary of the Ogden Union Station. This interview was conducted at the Ogden Union Station by oral historian Alyssa Kammerman of RootsBridge LLC. During this interview, Sarah and Hazel share memories of their husbands’ work on Union Pacific dining cars as a waiter and a chef-cook, respectively. They discuss segregation in Ogden, redlining, and the churches and social clubs that were important in Ogden’s Black community. AK: So I'll just go ahead and give the date. Today is October 17th, 2023. I'm here with Sarah McClellen and Hazel Jones for the Ogden Centennial Exhibit project. So starting out, I wanted to learn a little bit about your growing up years before we jump into your time with the railroad. So I guess we can start with Sarah and then go to Hazel: When and where were you born? SM: Well, I was born in a small town in Hartford, Alabama, in 1940. I grew up the youngest of 11, and my mom had 10 girls and one son. And I finished high school in 1956, and when I finished high school, I left there and started to live in Jacksonville, Florida. Went to college there. AK: What did you study? 1 of 54 SM: My major was biology and math. AK: Okay. How about you, Hazel? HJ: I was born in Hope, Arkansas, and when I was seven years old, my family relocated to Los Angeles, California. And that's where I grew up and went to school. I graduated from high school and went to UCLA for two years. And I have a degree in early childhood development. AK: That's really cool. And what brought you both to Ogden, Utah? Let's start with you, Sarah. SM: I had a sister that moved here in 1946, right after World War Two, because her husband got a job with the Union Pacific Railroad as a cook, and she encouraged me to come. [Laughs] And I wonder why. But I came. And my brother-in-law had quite a few brothers that was also working at a different part, at Second Street Depot. And also one was out at the Navy Depot. So that's how I come to been here, because my sister's been here so long and she encouraged me to come. AK: And why did she encourage you to come to Ogden? SM: She just wanted more family here. She felt a little bit lonely out here because she didn't have her family here. Because coming to Utah, most folks don't even talk about Utah where we come from in Jacksonville. I told them I was living in Utah, they say, "Eutaw, Alabama?" So they got a city called Eutaw, E-U-T-A-H. It's pronounced Utah. I say, "No, because most folks seem to forget about this state. 2 of 54 If you live down there, unless you have some kind of relationship with this state, most folks don't talk about Utah that much where I come from. AK: That makes sense. I mean, what is there to talk about with Utah? Unless you ski, I guess, so [laughs]. And how about for you, Hazel? What brought you out here? HJ: When I came, I was just comin' for a visit. My sister was living here, and I came to visit with her and decided to stay. I fell in love with Utah [laughs]. I love the mountains and the area here as well. I was supposed to go back home and get me a job and go to work [laughs]. SM: When I came out here, I got a job, and I was gone to leave as soon as the year was over. HJ: I did too, I started working at Hill Field, got me a job at Hill Field at that time, and then I decided to stay in Utah. Been here for 77 years. AK: What was your job at Hill Field? HJ: I was a key punch operator. AK: And what year was that again? HJ: 1951. Well, it was typing, you know. SM: You don't know what key punching is, do you? HJ: You don't know anything about that [laughs]. Key punch operator. That was the name of the typers at that time. 3 of 54 SM: It was something that could punch a thing and it gave us a card and you could run it through. And was that kind of the front runner of the computer? HJ: Payroll cards, yeah. AK: Okay, that makes sense. And you came to Ogden in the 1940s as well? HJ: No, I came in November of 1950. AK: Okay, perfect. And what job did you get when you first came out, Sarah? SM: When I first came here, I got a job teaching in Brigham City at Intermountain Intertribal School. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but. AK: Tell me about it. SM: In Brigham City, in World War II, they had a hospital there, and when the war was over, they converted in 1950 to a tribal, Native American school. And we had in the very beginning about 2,500 kids from different reservations, but mostly from Arizona. And while I was there I taught math and science to kids in 11th and 12th grade. AK: That's really interesting. So you would have been in your early 20’s when you did that, right? SM: I was 26 when I came here. 4 of 54 AK: Okay. What are your memories of Ogden at that time? Was it a busy town? Were there a lot of people coming through the railroad? What are your memories of what it was like? SM: When I came in, the railroad was quite active when I first came here. There was a lot of transportation going on, lot of folks coming through, so it was a busy place. This place was, the Union Station was. Because a lot of folks at that time had not started to travel by airplane; they were still using the railroad to travel, and so it was quite busy. It was busy when I came here, because I would come down and pick folks up that rode the train into Ogden. Because that was the major, especially for African-Americans that I knew, my family, they rode the train into Ogden because it was a way of transportation. AK: Why was the train an especially major way of travel for African-Americans during that time? SM: Well, that's who I dealt with. I didn't deal with nobody else [laughing]. I can't say what other nationalities would do, I'm talking about what my family and friends was doing, and it was, uh, African-American. That's why I said that. I don't know what the Asians and the Japanese and those were doing. I'm talking about my family and the folks that I knew. AK: Ok, that makes sense. So speaking of the train, so you came out here a year after World War Two ended, is that correct? SM: No, my sister did. I came out here in 1966. 5 of 54 HJ: Well, I was here in 1950, so [laughs]. My husband and I got married in '52, and I'm a long-time railroad wife, one of the only few that's left now [laughs]. And during that year, she said the town was really busy at that time. A lot of people coming, and it was a lot of things that were going on in the Black community; it was really thriving at that time. But when I first came to Ogden and I tried to get a job in my field, they wouldn't hire me. They were not hiring Blacks at that time. So that's how I ended up at Hill Field. And of course, it paid more money and I stayed on [laughs]. But my husband was a chef cook for the railroad for 39 years, and he had four brothers that worked for the railroad, two brother-in-laws that worked for the railroad. Matter of fact, that was one of the prominent jobs for Blacks at that time. AK: I've heard that railroad jobs were considered really good jobs at that time. Is that correct? SM: It was an upgrade, especially for the Blacks that I knew that was migrating from the South. And they had just left World War Two, and so they didn't want to go back, I guess, sharecropping and things, so this was a step up for African-American males. [To Hazel] And they had a few women, didn't they, in the laundry? Did they hire a few ladies over in the laundry? HJ: Well the ladies worked here in the Station. You know, they were, I guess, say, housekeepers and that type of thing. I think it was two ladies at that time. But those were the only ladies that I knew that worked for the railroad. 6 of 54 AK: I'm curious about what positions were open to African-Americans on the railroad at that time. You had porters, waiters, red caps... HJ: Waiters, cooks, lounge car people. I can't remember if they hadn't started hiring Blacks for porters at that time until years later. AK: So porters were white at that time? HJ: [Sigh, thinking] You know, I really can't remember if they had... I assume it was white. I don't know [laughs]. SM: I can't remember. When I came here in '66, it was, Blacks was porters. So I don't remember. AK: Okay. So they started hiring Black porters more in the '60s? HJ: The late '60s, I guess, they started hiring them for porters. AK: But the cooks were often Black, correct? HJ: It was really a segregated situation when I came to Utah. SM: And cooks had assistant folks, too. It wasn’t only chefs that worked in the kitchen. HJ: Well, they had stages; A first cook, second cook, third cook. Yeah, it was a tiered thing. SM: There'd be a chef cook, and under the chef he had folks that did the, uh, peeling the potatoes and things like that. 7 of 54 HJ: They did certain jobs. They cooked different meals. They were specialists in different types of food. One of my brother-in-laws was a great cook with pastries and that was all he did on the train was do the pastries and things like that. And of course, my husband was a chef cook later on, I guess after he had worked about ten years, he'd become a chef cook. And of course, he was the big boss, he thought [laughs]. But it was good times, you know, in those days. Really good times. And I wouldn't trade any of it because it was really good to me and my family. AK: Hazel, how did you meet your husband? HJ: I was going to work, and the guys used to have to go to Salt Lake to catch the train. They'd had to leave Ogden and we had to ride the Bamburger. So my girlfriend and I was on our way to work, and they were on the train. And it was during the baseball season of the World Series, I remember that. And he started talking to me, and I thought to myself, "Oh God, I wish this guy would just leave me alone," [laughs]. SM: "I'm not here for a conversation." [00:12:38][1.2] HJ: Oh, yeah, and so, anyway, one thing led to another and we laughed and talked all the way to when we got off at Hill Field and they went on to Salt Lake. After he came back from his trip, he stopped by where I was livin' at my apartment, someone knocked on the door, and I went to the door and there he was, and I said to myself, "Wow, do I have to?" [Laughing]. But anyway, he asked me to go out to a movie with him and I agreed, and that's how it got started. 8 of 54 AK: I love that. And how often was he in town? HJ: He was gone six days. They would do a six-day trip and they would go from here to... Well, they went different directions. Sometimes they went to St. Louis, sometimes Chicago, and then back to L.A.. And they would have to come back through here and we would meet the train and say hello and hug and kiss, and they would go on their way to Los Angeles. And that's how we lived for years. SM: They was home so many days and they worked so many days. AK: Man, that's hard. So because of that, did you find other wives that would help you with things you may need while your husband was gone? Did you have a pretty good community of railroad wives that you could tap into? HJ: Yes. Matter of fact, the majority of the wives were railroad wives. And of course, there were different classes of women [laughs]. And maybe I shouldn't use that word. But there was like, you know, there was different classes of women and they did their thing. SM: You had some that were big members of churches and you had some that partied more. HJ: Yeah. AK: So you mentioned that at that time, the Black community was flourishing, and Utah is not really known for its diversity, as we all know. And so was there more diversity in Ogden during the time that the railroad was here compared to now? 9 of 54 HJ: Mm hm. You know, Ogden was really the focus point because there was a few families in Clearfield and Roy at that time, Washington Terrace, but the ones that was in Washington Terrace were more government-type people: the ones at Clearfield Navy Base, and Ogden DDO. They were all kind of like military-type people, and so they were kind of separated. But we would get together like at parties and special days and things like that, and at church, because the majority of them belonged to the same churches, and so that's how it was in the early years. AK: Were there predominantly Black churches at that time with segregation and everything? HJ: [to Sarah] There were what? Three? SM: Uh, yeah, about three. HJ: Well, at that time it was three: Embry Chapel, Wall Avenue 28th Street, and... SM: And Griffin. Griffin came later, because when I came, it was down on the railroad tracks. HJ: Yeah, Griffin came later and it was Wall Avenue and there was one on Lincoln. There was four and they were different denominations. And of course we were Baptist, so we always thought that we were, some of them thought that they were better [laughs]. SM: When I came here, it was more Baptists than there was any other denomination. 10 of 54 HJ: But when the churches were really first organized, Embry Chapel had the majority of members, since Wall Avenue was not operating at that time. And I guess a lot of them went to Embry Chapel when Wall Avenue was built, I guess, they went back to the Baptist church. I don't know. That was before my time. SM: When I look at the history, I know they started the Wall Avenue Baptist Church, you know, and that kind of started with the... HJ: The Wall Avenue Baptist Church was built in 1919. SM: Incorporated in 1926. HJ: But Embry Chapel was 1911. It is still the oldest Black church of the state. AK: Okay, and was Embry Chapel a Baptist church as well? SM: It was AME. HJ: African Methodist Episcopal Church. AK: Okay. And so how did the churches create that sense of community? Did they have activities that you would go to? HJ: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. We had plenty of activities back in those years. You know, the churches mingle with each other and they would visit on special days. If it was a New Zion's special day, then Embry Chapel would support us and we would support them, and it was just a community gathering. It's just one of those things that just kept going around and around for years and years. 11 of 54 SM: And it's still like that when they have their church anniversary or pastor's anniversary. We go and support them and, you know, usually have a meeting at 3:30 on Sunday afternoon, so I still go and support it. I was up at Unity a lot. I went over to Unity about three or four Sundays ago for their 25th anniversary. HJ: We even support the churches in Salt Lake. It's just like a family thing. When you have a picnic, you invite everybody and they all come. AK: I like that. So I want to hear about how you met your husband, Sarah? SM: When I came to Utah, I wasn't married, so I met my husband because a lot of the railroad guys used to come and hang around at my brother-in-law's house because he liked to always put on a pot of food because he was a chef-cook. So they would all hang around and eat and have a drink. And my husband was a part of that and he would work for the railroad, so that's how I met my husband, was at my sister and brother-in-law house, because they all would hang out. You know, if you work for the railroad, a lot of this group of railroad folks always would be together when they would be all in town. They would all find each other, and sit around and reminisce about their life, career or something and, you know, debate about a baseball game or something, you know? So that's how I met my husband. HJ: It was a group of guys that even though they had their own separate identifications, they were all still like a close-knit family, really. I mean, they just, as she said, there was groups that did certain things and they did those things together, but as a whole, they were just a family. 12 of 54 SM: When they would have their layovers here, they all acted like they hadn't seen each other, and they would get together and meet at each other's homes. And my brother-in-law was kind of a main meeting place and they all gather there. And they would meet about every day, Monday through Friday [both laugh]. HJ: Well, my husband was just the opposite. He was not a really big party guy. He was more of a “homey,” let me put it that way. He loved to be home with his family and stuff when he was in town. And 'in town', that's what they would say, "Well, I'm going to be in town this week," or "I'm going to be in town next week," or whatever, you know? And it was a lot of fun back in the day. AK: Did your husbands know each other, then? SM: Every Black knew each other [both laugh]. They say I know about every Black in Ogden, but I don't. My sister came out here in 1946 and she lived in Arsenal Village, because Blacks don't – HJ: That was in Roy. SM: Washington Villa was a government-type housing that mostly African-Americans lived in and we had one on Antelope Drive. HJ: Yeah, the um… SM: Sahara Village. HJ: Yeah, Sahara Village, and then there was the Navy base, which was in Clearfield. They had one too. 13 of 54 SM: I know, but my sister lived in – because when she came in, there was nowhere to rent a room, a motel, an apartment. And when they first moved here, they rented a room with a family because you couldn't rent a hotel or a motel room. And I guess they built Washington Village and Sahara Village and the other one just for African-American families. HJ: Well no, they wasn't just for African-American families at the time because there were Spanish, Japanese, um [thinking]. SM: Any of the minority groups. HJ: You know, if they work for the government, they was entitled to live in those areas. SM: Well most of them were people of color that lived in those apartments. HJ: Well, later on. Yes. AK: So with some of that separation of housing and such, was the segregation in Ogden as overt as it was in the South? HJ: Yes. It was terrible for housing for Blacks at the time. We could only go from 21st Street to 36th, between Lincoln and Wall Avenue, because West Ogden was not even developed at that time. I can remember when my husband and I were getting ready to buy our first home, and there was a house that was on Lincoln and 31st Street. [To Sarah] You remember that big two-story home that was there just on the corner of 31st and Lincoln? 14 of 54 SM: Mm hm. HJ: And it was a beautiful home and I just fell in love with it. When we went to view the house that night, the young man, I guess it was her grandson that was selling the house for her. And I guess he forgot to tell Grandma that it was Black people that was looking at the house. So when we got there to go through the house, Grandma was with him, and you could just see the blood just drain right out of her face, and she went in the kitchen. Of course, the son and his wife continued showing us the home. I said, "Oh, I love this house," because we had two children at that time, and it was large enough for additional family. It had two bedrooms upstairs and a full basement and the main floor. And when we came back from upstairs and went in the kitchen and I told my husband, "This is it." I said, "This is for my family," a big, beautiful yard and all of that, plenty of room for the girls to space out. And Grandma [laughs], she looked at him and she said, "Oh. I don't know." She's like, "There's no Blacks living in this..." Well, she didn't say that, she said, "...color people living in this neighborhood, and I don't want to be the first one to sell to color." And that hurt me so bad, because that's the first time I really had come in contact with the segregation in Utah, and that just tore me apart. And I told my husband, "Forget it." And to this day, every time I go past that house, I say, "Thank you, Grandma, for not selling it to me, because had you sold it to me, I'd be stuck there." Now the area is so rundown. And, you know, it's really in a real slump. That, yeah, it was really bad, even in the theaters. You'd know, you go to the theater, I– 15 of 54 SM: When I first went to the Orpheum Theatre, I wanted to know why we couldn't sit on the floor. We had to go upstairs. HJ: Yeah. SM: I want to sit down there. They said [whispering], "You can't sit down there."[laughs] HJ: It happened to me at the Egyptian Theatre – my oldest daughter and I. Dad was out and we decide we's going to go to a movie on Saturday because we usually go to the drive-in. We never went into the theater, and I really didn't realize that it was that bad. [laughs] I didn't. So when we walked in the theater – and at that time they had ushers on the doors – and I took my daughter's hand and we was going to walk through the door, and he stood in front of the door, and I couldn't figure out what is wrong with him. And I said, "Well, aren't you going to open the door?" And he just stood there looking at me and I couldn't understand what was going on. And so, I said, "Well, are you going to let me in?" And he called back for the manager because I guess he didn't want to deal with telling me that I couldn't go there. So the manager walked over to me and he told me, he said, "You have to go upstairs." Well, I was pregnant with my third child, and I said, "Oh, no, I'm not going upstairs." I said, "I paid my money and I want to sit here." And he said, "Well, I'm sorry." He said, "But colored people are not allowed to sit on the floor." and so I told him, I said, "Well, are colored people allowed to get their refund?" 16 of 54 And for 40 years, I've never put my foot back in there [laughs]. Until about 10 years ago. SM: It was the same thing over in the Orpheum Theatre also. And that's when I thought, "Why can't we sit down here?" They said, "No, Sarah," and it was the first time I went to a movie. They said, "No, we have to sit upstairs." And I asked them, “Why?” You know, I mean, I came from Jacksonville, Florida, but I didn't think that we'd do the same thing here. Somehow I thought it would be different. I thought Ogden would be more... Why would it be segregated when it had 0.7% Blacks? You know, I mean, what are you segregating from? HJ: Especially in 1960, you would’ve thought it would be better, but… SM: Mm mm. Nope. HJ: And it didn't change until 1960. It changed just a little bit before the Civil Rights Bill was passed, and it was changed because the young generation changed a lot of things like the Berthana Skating Rink: they had to go at different times. The white kids went early and the Black kids had to wait until 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00 at night to go. And the white kids would get upset because the Black generation had better music and they skated better or whatever, and the kids couldn't skate too well to Hank... What was his name? The western-ey people [laughs]. The western music, that's what they had. And so a lot of the white kids start waiting until the 9:00 hour to go. So they had to do it because they wasn't getting the crowds at 7:00. And so that's why it was changed because they said they just did not understand why they had to go at different times. 17 of 54 SM: And I know my sister, they wouldn't show them a house above Washington when they bought a house in 1955. HJ: What do you mean, Washington? You couldn't go any farther than Lincoln. SM: When they bought it in 1955, she told me they didn't show her anything above Washington Boulevard. AK: Were there signs as well, you know, how they would have in the South? They'd have, you know, “colored” and “white” signs? Both: No, no. I never saw any. HJ: When we first came, we didn't really know. The Blacks, I guess, that was here, they knew better, and so they never bothered about it. So I don't know; I never did see any signs that say colored or white. And the kids were going to school together at that time. The schools were integrated, and a lot of things was integrated, but there was still that stigma there about certain things. AK: Was there any segregation in the Union Station that you guys noticed? HJ: No, hm mm. No. If you come in and wanted a ticket, they'd sell it to you. The only time that there was any changes on the train, you could sit where you want to, and they would change if you was going South. I remember getting on the train with my family and we was going to Louisiana, my husband's home. And when we got to Kansas, I didn't know that. When we got to Kansas City, we had to change coaches and I thought that was horrible [laughs]. We had to get off of that 18 of 54 train, we had to change trains anyway – but we had to get off of that train and get on another one to go into Louisiana. AK: What did you say was horrible? The different train? HJ: They put you on a segregated coach. That was it [laughing]. And my kids kept crying the whole time, and I said, "Well, I don't know. I just have to do what they tell us to do," [laughing]. Yeah. I never went back on the train again [laughs]. AK: I had been told that for some railroad workers, they could have their families ride the train for free. Is that correct? HJ: Oh, yeah, that was a pastime for me and my family. We did it all the time. When the train would come, Dad would come through here, and we would get on the train with him. We'd go to Saint Louis or Chicago or wherever they were going on and spend the night and come back home. And when we would go on vacations, we'd go with the crew that he was working with. And we had all the privilege. SM: Mm hm. The best food. HJ: We were VIPs, you know, and that's the way it was [laughs]. My girls and I just, it was just part of our part time, you know? We did that all the time. AK: I like that. Do you guys remember what the food was like on those trains? Or the menu? HJ: Oh my God, they treated you like... Well, yeah, the menu was the same as, you know, the paying customers. As a matter-of-fact, we would be treated much 19 of 54 better, really, because they would wait until everybody had been served, and then they would have the wives and the families to come in, and all of the railroad guys would sit down that was working with us and have dinner. And it was just a marvelous time during those years. AK: Did you wives create any kind of a club for yourselves, or any kind of an organization? HJ: Oh yes, we had... Some of those pictures you were looking at? AK: Yeah. Tell me about that. HJ: Okay. Well, those were different clubs, different organizations, of Blacks, you know. We made our own community, you know. We just, everything that everybody else was doing, we did it in our community: the dances and the formals and the picnics, and all of those things that we all are enjoying together now, we did them separately. AK: So tell me about some of the community clubs? What were their names? HJ: There was the Sorrels, the Debonairs, the Anytimers... Oh, gosh, that's why I brought my book, because I can't really think. [To Sarah] Oh, gosh, help me. SM: I don't know. When I came they had the Doves, and the... HJ: And yeah, the Doves, and... If you’ll allow me to get one of my books, I can give the names to you. AK: Yeah! Do you want me to pull them out of the bag for you? We can if you want. 20 of 54 HJ: [Looking in the book] Some of them are listed here and some of them are not. But anyway, there was about 20 or 25 different ones, and there were men and women clubs. SM: And the Eastern Stars was big when I came here. HJ: Well, the Eastern Stars was the women and the Masonics was the men. Of the… SM: Masonic, Lodge #20. HJ: Yeah. SM: Okay. They used to do quite a few things. They used to do the Easter egg hunt for the kids in the community. And they used to do a picnic down where the train used to be. It used to be where Western Ford is. HJ: Western Ford is... John Affleck Park. SM: Yeah. HJ: John Affleck Park. And they had big ball games there and... SM: I used to go to that and they had hot dogs and different things for the kids, and they were very, a lot of them were very supportive; Upward Bound for kids that were going to college, and a lot of them went up to Logan to Utah State. And they supported a lot of the boys and girls that went to the Upward Bound. HJ: And the American Legion was one focus point for veterans and their families in Utah. And they did everything. We did everything for 'em. They had different 21 of 54 programs and different scholarships and um…[Thinking] Oh, jeepers. It was just, you know, we just did everything that we're doing now, it was just segregated. AK: So, I am familiar with Upward Bound, but I haven't heard of Anytimers. What was that one? HJ: The Anytimers was a social club. Yeah. It was just a social club. And a lot of the social clubs back in those days, they just had socials for themselves. They [laughs and shrugs] didn't do anything. I always joined the ones that did charity work, but it was very few of them that really did charity work back in those days. SM: In 1988, we started the first Black sorority here, and I'm a Delta Sigma Theta sorority. And so we'd do quite a few things, like give scholarships and also we got a mentoring program, and quite a few programs that we did when we started in May of 1988. We just celebrated our 35th anniversary. AK: That's fantastic. Congratulations. Was that connected to a university at all? SM: No. We have nine different Black sororities and fraternities, and they're all over the United States. And you go to a lot of Black colleges and you'll always find them there. But we're doing better in Utah. We've got quite a few now. We've got Omegas and we got the AKAs and others. HJ: I was president of the American Legion Auxiliary, and in 1988 I became the department president, which was over the entire state. And we only had one Black Legion in the whole state of Utah. And I did so many things that I just forget that I did them, I guess: Girls' State, Boys' State, Americanism programs and all 22 of 54 of these kinds of things for the kids. And when I was president, I'd travel all over the community, all over the state, and I went in places that sometimes I was afraid, you know, because they were so prejudiced in some of those little towns like Corinne and Logan and places like that. And they still are. They still are that way. And of course – SM: Southern Utah, some of those places are bad, too. HJ: Mm hm, yeah, they are. But with the American Legion, the American Legion Auxiliary, within the confinement of that group, it wasn't really segregated, but it was just the people, you know. I learned to live with it and put in a lot of years with the organization. AK: That's amazing. So for a lot of these social clubs, was there a prerequisite to join? Did you have to be railroad wives or anything like that? SM: You don't have to be a railroad wife to join a social club. HJ: Oh, no no. Not really. Not really. But they were picking and choosing their groups, you know? I mean, everybody couldn't join [laughs]. SM: And a lot of folks didn't want to. I know they asked me to join some of them, and I don't think it was that I didn't qualify, it's just that I didn't... I just didn't do it. HJ: And it was just, like I was saying earlier, there's a different class of people, let's just put it that way [both chuckle]. And you didn't want to be in an organization with everybody anyway. So, you know, I mean, just like any of us now, you just… 23 of 54 [Laughs] Sarah and I was talking just about this one club that, they got together just to save Christmas funds, I guess, I don't know. SM: Was it the one at the Kiwanis Club? HJ: No, the group we were talking about; The Christmas-saving group or whatever. SM: [Chuckles] Yeah, they tried to get me to join that one. I don't know the name of it. HJ: I said to Sarah, "Well, didn't they know how to put the money in the bank and save it?" [laughs] SM: They just got together. It was just a social. They just wanted to spend [inaudible, both women talking over each other and laughing]. HJ: And I guess they just gave it a name. SM: They played a lot of bid whist. HJ: [laughing] Anyway, it was really comical to me because we were just talking about that a couple of weeks ago. “Well, my heavens,” I said, “didn't they know how to save money?” SM: They got together and they played bid whist. Bid whist was big back in the day. And from that, they went to dominos. HJ: And then they went to cards. It was just a fun thing, really [laughing]. 24 of 54 SM: And that’s why they got together and they would meet at each other's house, and they would prepare a meal or food or some hors d'oeuvres, and they would play cards. HJ: It was party town, in other words. That's what it was [laughing]. SM: And then they played music because everybody had a record player back in them days, you know. And so, you would eat and play cards or play dominos. HJ: Whatever fancied them, that's what they did [all laughing]. AK: And what was the name of the game? Big wish? Is that what you said? HJ: Bid whist, with cards. SM: Bid whist. HJ: Yeah, and then, four people would play it, you know, just like, well, it's just like poker. But it was Bid Whist. SM: You had to bid. You had to bid the cards you had in your hand. How many you could make. You know, ‘I bid five, I get four in diamonds.’ ‘I bid five clubs.’ HJ: I was never into that department. I didn't know too much about it. SM: I played a lot of bid whist, when I was in college, that's what we did a lot [both laugh]. I learned to play really, really well. So we did a lot of that on Friday nights, and Saturday would play cards, bid whist, and then we learned to play dominos. 25 of 54 HJ: Yeah, well, I never learned how to play dominoes. Herman tried to teach me, and I guess I wasn't interested in it. And that's why I never learned [laughing]. SM: Well, I used to play a lot of dominos. [Inaudible], he saw them play a lot of dominos. HJ: Yeah. Mm hm. AK: So I've heard that one of the places that some of the social clubs would gather was the Royal Hotel. Is that correct? HJ: The Royal Hotel was a hotel. Then they used to have a restaurant. It wasn't a bar or anything like that until later on, then they, downstairs turned it… But it was just, like a diner-type thing. But they have several beautiful restaurants on 25th Street. There was the LeFrance restaurant. The Tiffany had food, Beulah Holston Diner. There was the Tiffany Club, you could eat and party [laughs]. Oh, let's see. What else was there? SM: Annabelle’s Porters and Waiters Club just lasted longer. HJ: Porters and Waiters Club was the focus point because of the railroad, you know. But there was a lot of nice restaurants in the Black community: The barbecue stands, they had barbecue restaurants. Beauty shops. SM: Had two barbershops. HJ: Barbershops. Yeah, right. SM: Black barber shop up where [points down 25th Street]. 26 of 54 HJ: Cleaners, gas stations. SM: Yeah. What you call that? The gas station just on 25th and Lincoln? HJ: Yes, it was Price's. SM: Yeah, Ralph Price's. HJ: Yes, Ralph Price gas station on the corner of 25th and Lincoln. It was just as I said– SM: We were self-sufficient. You know, you had everything that you needed in the Black community. AK: Did you have to be that way because of segregation? SM: Well, I guess because of segregation, so the Black community had to become self-sufficient. Because, you know, there wasn't no Black mortuaries here. HJ: And never have been one. SM: My sister would tell me, Harding and Myers or Harding and Somebody, they were the only one who would take Black bodies. AK: And so the Porters and Waiters Club, you said that was a big thing at the time. Is that correct? Like, was it more popular than the other restaurants to go eat at? HJ: Not until later years, when a lot of the rest of 'em closed up, I guess, in the early ‘60s. They were all about the same, really. 27 of 54 SM: I think really where they had more jazz and more music and certain kinds of... They broke the rules and they would stay out late at night. HJ: Well, it was because Annabelle was the only one that had an area where they had live music. And that was why the Porters and Waiters was so famous. SM: Joe McQueen. HJ: Well, it was other bands, too, that used to play there. SM: But he had a lot to do because him and Annabelle was always really good friends and they did a lot of jam sessions up there, you know. And when I came here, Fisher Smith had a band, Ed Taylor and the Chaperones… HJ: Yes. SM: And you know it was other bands besides them. HJ: But then after Annabelle closed, the American Legion became the focus point for the music and stuff, because they were always jammin' there. Sometimes on weekends there would be so many young people around that place because it wasn't that large. I mean all nationalities, because they enjoyed that type of music. And it was times we just had to close down because it was so many kids and a lot of them was underage. [laughing] They had false IDs, you know. And of course, if you knew them you had to tell them that, “No, you not coming in.” But if you didn’t know them, you couldn't tell them, “Well no you can't come in because I know you're lying." 28 of 54 SM: Yeah, “I know that’s not your birthday.” HJ: But you couldn't fight with them. And so a lot of kids got away with it. SM: Yeah, because a lot of them weren't accustomed to the type of Black music. Because most out here is country and western. It changed some now, you know, as you go in, but it was all country and western. HJ: The Black community is the one that brought all of the R&B music into Utah, because, you know. It wasn't even allowed in the families, I guess, at that time. I don't know why. The kids would slip in, come off the bench and come down to the community and enjoy themselves. SM: Different kind of music. Different kind of dance, too [both laugh]. HJ: One of the reasons why they had to just turn it loose because, "Hey, we, the young people are not going to put up with this garbage," you know. And they didn't. AK: That is really fascinating. I hadn't thought of that before. So there wasn't a lot of access to like jazz and those kinds of music at the time? SM: Rhythm and blues and stuff like that. HJ: Oh, no, it wasn't, when, back in the early '50s and '60s. You know, I guess they didn't even allow it in the homes, because it was predominantly Mormons, and their church, and so. 29 of 54 SM: And a lot of the white kids couldn't dance. I mean, they didn't have a rhythm to keep up with the music. HJ: Well, they had never heard it, really. SM: I know, I'm just saying that’s why they got excited when they heard some of the old timers, the James Brown, and they heard all of that, they came along and they just went wild over it because it was so different from... It wasn't wrong what they were doing, it was just a different thing. HJ: Well, it wasn't so much of that as it was the religion, really. I mean, they just pump religion in the kids, and I don't know, are you Mormon? AK: I am, but I want to hear about it. HJ: Yeah. So you can understand what I'm saying. The families just don't allow a lot of things that what's going on around the world. SM: It was different music [chuckles]. HJ: But it was all good [laughs] AK: And also, like you were saying with the dances, was that the time of swing dance and Lindy Hop and those kinds of things? SM: Yeah, yeah. They didn't dance like that. You know, it wasn't nothing wrong with that, it was just, the young kids really caught on to that type of dancing, so. 30 of 54 AK: And the reason why I had asked about the Royal Hotel is because I had heard that that was also a community center for the Black community. But is that true or was it just a hotel? HJ: Yes, there was a community center. It started out being a USO for young soldiers, and then later on it turned into a community center for the Black community. And I worked there as a counselor [Sarah laughs then Hazel laughs]. I worked everywhere, didn't I? But anyway, it was a really nice place. The kids did a lot of beautiful things. And I remember the first play I produced with – [Sarah laughs] Yeah, I did! With Hazel McEwan and Gloria Steen and Audrey Harrison, oh gosh, who else was in there? Leonard Holston at the community center on Wall Avenue. SM: [To Hazel] You know, I'm doing a history committee, right? I see all of that. I got all of them. HJ: [To Sarah] I know you have. SM: [To Alyssa] Down at at New Zion, I've been coordinating some and going through to get a lot of pictures of what she's talking about when they was doing plays. And plays used to be a big thing. It would make kids have more confidence to get up and speak and to act in front of folks. And I know the churches that I went to, they had a lot of Easter programs and Christmas programs and sometimes just a 'closed school' program to teach you how to be confident when you're speaking. 31 of 54 HJ: The majority of the Black families were Southern families and they were taught by Black teachers – and when you come from the South, Black teachers did not play with children. I mean, I remember when I was in the third grade, I had to get up and recite the Gettysburg Address. Third grade! I mean, and you better know that or you were in big trouble. Really. And a lot of the Black children was so far advanced when they went other places, like coming to Utah or California or someplace. They were so far advanced in knowledge that they graduated early. I graduated at 16. SM: I graduated at 16. HJ: Mm hm. I mean... SM: I can tell you: “Listen, my children, and you shall hear, Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere, On the 18th of April, in Seventy-Five: Hardly a man is now alive, Who remembers that famous day and year. He said to his friend, “If the British march by land or sea from the town tonight, Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry-arch Of the North-Church-tower, as a signal light,— One if by land, and two if by sea…” 32 of 54 Oh, I mean, you have [all laughing]. I mean, I still remember. You had to stand in front of the class and say the Paul Revere Ride. And she wasn't playin'. And, “I can't hear you!” And she'd get in the back of the room, and say, "I can't hear, you!" And there was no microphone back in those days when I went to school, you know what I mean? We had to project. "Project, Sarah! I can't hear you." [Chuckles] HJ: And I mean, you did it at an early age. And like the kids here, they do certain things in junior high school – we did that in third grade. SM: Yeah! HJ: So, you know, it was just different [laughs]. Some of those teachers were so mean! AK: I'm impressed you still remember your poem, too! Good job [laughing]. SM: Yeah, I remember a lot of stuff! HJ: I wanna forget! [All laugh] SM: No, baby, you can wake me up any time of the night. I still remember! [laughs and continues reciting “Paul Revere’s Ride” by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow] HJ: They did not play with you. SM: Because they told me you had to know it! 33 of 54 HJ: And we had a lady, Dovie Goodwin, that was a teacher. She was a Southern teacher. And the kids hated her at Pingree. They really hated her because she taught the old-fashioned way, because she was educated in an all Black college. I can hear my girls talkin' about Miss Goodwin [laughing]. SM: Mrs. Dix was no joke! HJ: And I couldn't say anything because it was true! You know, they were mean. I mean, they were really mean! SM: They wasn't playing! Why do you think that I can still, at 83 years old, I can sit and recite? [laughing] And when they got through, you better know it, and you better not stumble and you better not mumble. You better speak, you better project, and you got to hear what you got to say. HJ: [Pointing to Sarah] You’re from Tennessee, and I'm from Arkansas. Two different worlds, but it was the same thing! [laughing] SM: Same thing, they didn't play. Yeah. I know all my timetables. HJ: Yes, yes, yes. AK: That is impressive. I've already forgotten some of mine, which is bad. SM: Uh uh. No, you didn't have Dorothy Dix for a teacher [all laugh]. HJ: [To Sarah] Yeah, that's what I was saying. If she'd had one of those ladies she'd know them! 34 of 54 SM: If you had Dorothy Dix for a teacher, you would know them and you would stand up and you would say them all. You know, you look back now, and you ask kids, and everybody has to look on their phone. I say, "How much is seven times eight?" [Pretends to pull out phone calculator] "Oh, let me see here." I'm like, "They don't remember!" AK: That's true! We've gotten so reliant on our phones nowadays. SM: They’re on their phones, looking. I say, "That's 56! What are you looking for?" [all laugh] HJ: On the calculator. SM: Yeah, they got their phone out [mimics tapping oh phone]. AK: Yes, that is true, unfortunately [laughing]. SM: Oh, but back in the day, you had to know it. And when I say you know it, that's why I know it today. HJ: And you don't ever forget it. SM: You don't... When you say you know something, you never forget it. AK: That's true. So I would like to hear a little bit more about your husbands' jobs on the railroad as chef cooks. So tell me about, how did they get some of their training for that? Did they have to learn how to cook a certain way in order to work for the railroad? What did that look like? 35 of 54 HJ: Well, a lot of the Black men, when they were growing up, they learned how to do cooking at home. They didn't have to go to school or anything to learn how to do that. And of course, when, in later years, the young guys that came along, they had to be trained because they didn't know. Just like now, they don't know [laughing]. But the majority of the guys that were the older guys, they already knew how to cook and do things. SM: A lot of them, they also did it in the Armed Forces, too, because – not all Blacks – but some of the Blacks that went into the Armed Forces, they worked in the kitchens. They did not allow them to carry guns and things like that when they went into the Armed Forces. HJ: Yes, you even go back to the slavery era, the cooks, I mean, they just knew how to do things like that. And it was handed down from generation to generation. SM: Yeah, mm hm. AK: And do you know if your husbands have had to... I don’t know if audition is the right word, but like when they were trying to get the job, would they cook for the person that they were interviewing with, so that they could sample the food? Or what was the process to getting that job? If that makes sense. HJ: The chef would always set up the menu and whatever they were going to serve that day. And the hub was here in Ogden, and the Commissary was on the other end of the Union Station, and they were in charge of supplying all the food for the train. And everything that they used on the train was picked up right here in 36 of 54 Ogden for the six days they were gone. Now they might would have to order something different, you know, once that would run out. It all depends on how heavy the load was. They might have to pick up something from one of the other places. But most of the foods and supplies was here, and they would load the train enough for that whole trip. AK: Okay. And then while they were on the train, were they just constantly cooking or did they have little breaks? HJ: Well, they did three meals: breakfast, lunch and dinner. Just like a restaurant. SM: When they went out on the road, that's what they did. HJ: Yes. SM: Because the folks on the train had to eat three meals a day. AK: They ever serve any kind of hors d'oeuvres or anything in between? HJ: Well, it all depends on if they wanted to do a special meal. But usually the meals were the same: breakfast, lunch and dinner. And of course, they did a lot of roast chicken and meatloaves and stuff like that for a big quantity. Just like when you go into a restaurant, on some of the trains, they can order what they want; If they wanted a steak or if they wanted pork chops or whatever. But just like going into a restaurant. AK: So how long could your husbands be home after their six days away? 37 of 54 HJ: They were gone six and home six. Well, they were home five days completely and on the sixth day they would leave on the trip, and it was a rotation thing. AK: Okay, so six and six. So what did you guys do to keep busy while they were gone? SM: I was working. HJ: Well, I was working and raising my girls [laughs]. I was happy when he got home because he did it all. When he would come home, he would take over the kids and see that they got to school and give me a rest. And for five days he was Mama and Papa, and for five days, I was Mama and Papa [laughs]. SM: Yep. You know, that was the usual. HJ: Yeah, I mean, it was just a normal thing for us. AK: And what did you guys do for work, since you were both working? HJ: Well, I worked for the federal government. And then in 1963, I went to work for Sierra Lingerie, which was a lingerie place out on 12th Street. And I was a quality control inspector and did that for 20 years. Retired in 1982. AK: And how about you, Sarah? SM: I taught school up in Brigham City at Intermountain Tribal School, and they closed it in 1984. And with that, I was recruited by Internal Revenue Service, and I went there and worked with EEO. And when I retired, I was the EEO Diversity Director for the Internal Revenue Service until 1995, when I retired with 30 years 38 of 54 of service. And then in 1997, I started my own nonprofit, and I'm still doing it up on 24th Street – from 1997 to 2023. AK: And is that your AIDS/HIV nonprofit? SM: Yeah, I've been doing that. Since 1997 HJ: After I retired, I just started traveling. I just went everyplace and seen everything. SM: But I want to improve this because of my Internal Revenue job. I got a chance to go to about every state except six. And they afforded me to do that. HJ: I've been to every one of them but Mississippi, and I don't know why I missed that. [laughs] SM: Yeah, been to Mississippi, I stayed there. I went to Jackson for a conference for six days. HJ: I never had a desire to go to Mississippi. SM: I would never come, but there was a conference I went to. And in 2000, I went to South Africa, to Cape Town, and did HIV over there for eight weeks. HJ: My husband and I did several cruises, seven European tours. We just enjoyed good times. AK: That's so fun. So I am curious with the trains: So I guess the Union Pacific stopped servicing this area back in the '70s, correct? 39 of 54 HJ: Yeah. My husband was on one of the final trains that went from Chicago... The Amtrak had stopped running from Los Angeles to Chicago, and they had to go to L.A. to get on the train the final year. And he and Gortrol Logan was on the same route, and they had to go every six days to Salt Lake, get on the airplane, and go to Los Angeles to go to work. And it was a hectic time during that year, and I was so glad when it was over with because it was really hard – especially like in the wintertime when we had to take them to the airport. It was rough, but you did what you had to do. Anyway, he was on the final Amtrak that ran through; “The Last Run,” they called it. And we had to pick him up in Salt Lake. SM: Some of them had to move down there. A lot of them had to move to L.A. HJ: Yeah, yeah. Back when Amtrak took over, a lot of them moved to L.A. Sylvester went, but he came back. SM: Sylvester, Roscoe DeVore. HJ: Yeah, Roscoe, Carl Bonds, Hamilton, Red Oliver. SM: All of them had to move to L.A. HJ: Well that's why my husband, he was supposed to have moved too. But he said he wasn't going to live in L.A. He didn't want to. So he would have to go back and forth by plane, every six days. SM: My husband didn't really have to move, but he had to work on those, um, Gandy Trucks. 40 of 54 HJ: Yeah, Herm did too, after the train stopped running. SM: Yeah and what they had to do: They had to cook for, they called them Gandy Dancers. HJ: The Gandy Dancers were the railroad crew that did the work on the tracks and such. SM: We called them Gandy Dancers [both laugh]. HJ: Yes, Herman would have to go out and... SM: Matt wouldn’t cook but he'd have to go out and help the cooks because my husband was a waiter. But he had to go on Gandy Dancers' trips and they would be repairing a part of the railroad and they would carry a car out there and supply it with all kinds of food. So, the men repairing the railroad tracks, they called them Gandy Dancers. HJ: And they would feed and take care of the railroad track workers and others. SM: They had to cook for them and serve them. AK: Interesting. And I am so sorry, Sarah, but I thought that your husband was a cook like Hazel’s. But you said that he was a waiter? Is that correct? SM: Yeah. But these two had to go out on the… [laughs] HJ: My husband hated it, too [both laughing]. When the phone would ring, he would just get so worked up. "I wish I could tell them I'm not here." 41 of 54 SM: And they’d get on the to sever the Gandy Dancers, and they would send a cook up there and a waiter. And so he would have to serve the Gandy Dancers, when they came to eat lunch and dinner. HJ: Well, they fed the workers three meals. SM: Workers got their three meals a day. AK: And they were on call? Like, they would call them up on the phone and tell them to go? HJ: No, they had a time. I mean, they did their eight days or whatever and... SM: And they moved all over the track. I mean, they'd do so many miles of this track, and then they'd move it down another so many miles... HJ: And then they would move it through different states. Sometime he would have to go to Montana. Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada. AK: So with the Gandy dancers, was that on the — HJ: Well, it was the guys that did the tracks. SM: And they call them Gandy Dancers. You heard no talk about Gandy Dancers? [Looking incredulous while Hazel laughs] AK: I haven't! I know, I know! [all laugh, teasing] SM: I don't even know why they call them Gandy Dancers. 42 of 54 HJ: Me either. [laughing] SM: They were the workers. HJ: Well, that was the name that the cooks gave them. [both laughing] SM: No, it's the profession name! I saw it. Yeah. Gandy Dancers. HJ: Well, I said it was a name that the cooks gave them. SM: But they made it up. HJ: Yeah [both laugh]. SM: And the Gandy Dancers were the folks that repaired the railroad tracks. HJ: Yeah, they did the work on the tracks. SM: Yeah, you know how you have to repair the railroad tracks? And they sent the cook and a waiter out there to prepare the meals, because they were still getting full pay. But my husband did not want to go out, and… HJ: Didn't any of them really like it. [both laughing] HJ: They had to do it in order to get their checks. AK: That makes sense. SM: Yeah, and they were still getting paid full-time. 43 of 54 AK: And were they still in Pullman cars at this point, when they would go out there? Or did they go out there in trucks? HJ: Well, they did it until they retired. Sometimes they would stay home maybe a month or two before they would go out, but they would still get paid. But when they were on call, they had to go. SM: Had to go out and work on the Gandy cars. And they had to drive their cars to get there, so they knew how to get to the different places in Wyoming, if they had to leave, and they knew what time they had to leave in order to get there before Monday morning, if they had to be there Monday morning to start to – for my husband – to serve food. Because the cook would be there to cook the breakfast, to serve the breakfast. AK: So how long did both of your husbands end up working for the railroad before they retired, then? HJ: My husband worked 39 – well, 40 years, really, because he had worked a year before he went into the military in '42. And then when he came back out of service in 1943, he went back to the railroad. So he had 40 years. SM: 37 years. AK: So I think we are starting to wrap up, getting close to the end of my list of questions. But what are some things about Black history on the railroad that you feel like would be important for exhibit attendees to understand? 44 of 54 SM: I think sometimes what the African-Americans contribute to the railroad get lost, because without all of the energy, it wouldn't be a railroad. And so, because they are what made this railroad great, and I think they should be... When I came down and looked at the display, I indicated to them, I think they should have more featured because they was an integral part of making this a great organization – even though they weren't the president, the CEO. But they are one, and I think that they should be known for what they did. I think the Chinese should be known more about. I know you didn't ask about the Chinese, but I'm just saying, they don't get what they deserve out of it, because if it wasn’t for the Chinese working' these railroads, it wouldn't be no Union Pacific Railroad. If the Blacks weren't standing over those hot stoves and cooking and carryin' on, it wouldn't be a Union Pacific Railroad. And I think sometimes they forget about that. They don't know how important it is that someone, each part, starting from the ground up. From laying them tracks to cooking the food to someone doing the laundry, somebody did all of those coats and tablecloths and white napkins you see that they used, they did that laundry over there. And they was over there in some hot laundry, doing all of that that made this railroad. And I think they forget about the little man, you know, the integral part. HJ: They do. SM: They don't give them what they deserve – is recognition. 45 of 54 HJ: Well, I agree with her. I mean, if you have to work six days – well, say three days, – and if you could see the area where these guys worked, I mean, they were... Oh, what champions. That's the word I would use, because there's no way that I could work in a space, I don't know. Maybe three feet? And they had these wood coal, wood stoves to do these meals. SM: Hot. HJ: And I don't know if you've ever seen anything like, well, like the restaurant meals, when they put them on the table, you know – beautiful meals, and they come out of that little spot that they were working in, and six or seven guys in this little area working, and turn out a meal like that. And I tell you, I don't know how they did it. I really don't. SM: And they didn't have no paper plates then. HJ: Mm mm. They, crystal, silver, and they had to clean that silver everyday or every other week or however often they clean it. And they use china, I mean, expensive china. SM: You've seen it in this place, and they got it out there. That's what those tables looked like. They didn't have no paper napkins. And so somebody had to make sure that was taken care of. HJ: I was thinking the other night after I got the questionnaire, and I said, "Back in the day, the laundry, they wouldn't even hire Blacks," you know, and I never could 46 of 54 understand that. I said, "Why?" The laundry thought it was so bad to have a Black person working there. SM: I guess it was too much of a job. HJ: It was just crazy. AK: Wait, you said that they didn't have any Black people working in the laundry? HJ: No, no. The only Blacks that they had working with the train was the two ladies I was telling you about. And of course, they had the roundhouses. I think the Union Pacific, it was on 28th Street. Southern Pacific was on 29th. And they had a lot of Blacks working there. But the laundry, they never hired any Blacks. AK: One thing I forgot to ask about: I am curious about the working conditions and also the pay. How much were cooks and waiters paid at that time? HJ: Well, the cooks, I don't know, but it was top pay at the time. My husband’s pay was around $1,300 every two weeks. SM I didn't ever look at his check. I mean, [both laugh]. HJ: I know it was top pay, you know. SM: It paid the bills [all laugh]. You can equate that to whatever. HJ: I know my husband made a good salary. And I guess at that time, it was one of the top salaries, even in the state of Utah. SM: I never knew what my husband made. 47 of 54 HJ: Yes. It was sufficient for us to live on and we lived comfortable lives. SM: Mm hm. He paid the house mortgage and this and that, and it was his, you know. HJ: And he would always tell me, he says, "You live within my paycheck," even though I was working. He said, "You don't make a bill in your name." He says, "Let my paycheck pay for everything. I'm responsible for that." He said, "Then, what you make you and the girls enjoy," and that was how it was. SM: I had my ZCMI account. You don't know what ZCMI is, do you? AK: I do, actually. SM: Yeah, I had my ZCMI card, you know. I had my own accounts and I paid what? Well, I paid the telephone bill because back in them days... HJ: I didn't pay any bills. SM: … because I'd run up the telephone bill, and I didn't want him to see the telephone bill because I would get on it with my sister and we would talk for hours. HJ: Well, I did too, but he would still pay the bill, you know. SM: And I guess, you know, I was a GS-9, you know, I was making' pretty good money. I could pay my telephone bill and... HJ: Well I, like I said, I had four girls – well five, really, because my husband had a daughter with his first wife since he was married before. And I spent my money 48 of 54 on the girls, and we loved clothes, and that's where it went. Every time they needed something or whatever, you know. SM: I had my ZCMI account, and I had one at Bon Marche [laughs]. HJ: Mhm. Well, I had one at the Bon Marche, I had one at LR Samuels, and one at ZCMI [both laughing] AK: [laughs] That's fantastic. [To Sarah] Do you have any children? SM: One. AK: Is it a boy or a girl? SM: Girl. I got one daughter and one grandson. I don't have but one grandkid. AK: And I know Hazel’s husband was named Herman. [To Sarah] What was your husband's name? SM: James Willie. Everybody called him Mike. He didn't like James Willie. [To Hazel] I bet you didn't know his name was James Willie, did you? HJ: Yes, I did. SM: Well how did you know? Nobody else knew. HJ: Well because I knew his name was James! SM: When he died, I had folks calling me, wanting to send flowers. And they said, "What's his name, Sarah?" 49 of 54 HJ: I know. Everybody called him Mike. SM: And it was, "Sarah, what was Mike's name?" [Laughing] because they had to tell the florist the name. HJ: I'm trying to compile a list of all of the railroad men, the names, 'cause I think that that's important, that they need to have those names. And there's one I can’t remember. SM: Red Oliver, what was Red Oliver's name? HJ: Robert. SM: Yeah, but what did everybody call him? HJ: Red. SM: [laughs] Red, yeah, they called him Red Oliver. I thought his name was Oliver, maybe. I don't know why they called him Red Oliver. HJ: Because that's his last name – Oliver. SM: But I didn't know [both laugh]. You know, so many had nicknames, 'til — HJ: Yeah, like Esau. And the other night, when I was looking' for it, I couldn't think of his first name. And I thought, "Oh, Willie B!" [both laugh] SM: [To Alyssa] That's my brother-in-law, and everybody called him Esau. AK: And that wasn't his name? 50 of 54 SM: It was Willie B. Daniels [all laughing]. HJ: Why did they call him Esau? SM: I don't know! [laughing] I don't know. When I came to Utah, his nick name in Alabama was Boot. B-O-O-T. HJ: Well, now they call him Boot. SM: But growing up, his nickname was Boot. And don't ask me why they call him Boot. And then when he came out here, they called him Esau. [Incredulous look on her face. Alyssa and Hazel laugh] AK: Well, do you have any other stories from the Union Station that you would like to share? HJ: Oh, we could sit here and give you stories all afternoon [both laugh]. AK: So many good stories. I am curious: when the Union Station started having a museum, were any of you on the foundation board at all? SM: No. That's what I told Hope. And I also told Sarah: I told them, "We need somebody of color to be on that board,” when they gonna redo this, because I want to make sure if we have a museum, and they gonna have one, that there’s a Black museum. HJ: Well, look, this is my dream, and I'm working on that one right now: To establish a Black museum or library, and I want someone to give me space to put all this stuff. 51 of 54 SM: And if we're not at the table – I know about that. That's why I sit on so many boards – because if you not at the table, you get forgotten. It's all been about Browning and guns and the cars and things, but they don't know who the backbone of this railroad is; and I just told you who the backbone of this railroad was. And so when they start doing this 30 acres or whatever they got, I want to make sure there's something about these porters and waiters. And I think, I can't speak for Asians, but that should be something. I am talking about the African-Americans. I told them, and I’m going to ask Hope again, "How do I make sure that there's a Black person who is going to be sitting' at the table, that's going to speak up when they start to expand out?" I still think we should have something down here. These guys stood in them hot kitchens, they built this railroad on the backs of the Blacks and the Asians, and so I think when they make this the big deal they talking about, the cars and the guns, which is great, but they don't think about the real backbone that is, and who. And I do, I told Hope that I think they should consider somebody that's on that foundation because they forget about us. There's never been nobody on that foundation. I don't know if there’ve never been nobody on there, but I don't know. HJ: Well, no, there haven't been anyone on there. SM: You know, I am petitioning' that we have a Black person on there, a voice. I already talked to Hope, and I already talked to Sarah Langsdon about it because it's important. Because I know Sarah Langston has a lot to say, but she's not Black, as you know. 52 of 54 HJ: And she's gotten her information from the Blacks. SM: Yeah. So she doesn’t know some things'. Not that I'm putting her down, but you aren’t never lived it, so you don't know it. AK: Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, that makes sense. And were you also a part of creating the museum exhibit here that talks about the porters and waiters? Or was that New Zion that worked on that? SM: That's my exhibit. And it has porters and waiters [to Hazel] I got a part of the exhibit down here. AK: Okay. Yes, I've seen that before. SM: Yeah, that's mine. HJ: And where did you get it from? SM: A little from here and a little from there, from [inaudible, Hazel laughs]. Probably got some from you, got some from them. But, you know, we put it together, and I want to make sure that there's something about the porters and waiters, and, you know, the red caps and the folks that made this place a great place. AK: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I'm just a local historian, but what can I do to help you guys with getting Black history up there? SM: Talking about the foundation, make sure that the African-Americans got a seat at the table. beause they forget about us. I don't know if they forget about us – they don't want to think about us. 53 of 54 HJ: And did you know that there were different uniforms for the workers? SM: I know that some of them wore different kinds of uniforms, because I would see them. AK: For like the chefs versus the cooks? HJ: Mm-hmm, the chef wore a different type of clothes than the porters and the waiters. AK: [Examining photo] Oh, my goodness. That is such a good picture. Have they scanned this? SM: And the red caps had on a different type of uniform. AK: Okay, that's good to know. SM: I remember Jimmy Gray and John Hayes. Some of them was red caps. HJ: [Referring to the photo] My husband was the chef on that run. He has on the black checkered pants. He's the one in the middle at the top. AK: That is fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything that you'd like to say in closing? HJ: It's been kind of fun just reliving our past [laughing]. When we were young and gay. SM: And having fun, yes. 54 of 54 AK: Wonderful. Well, thank you. I really, really appreciate the time that you guys took to come meet with me. It was so much fun getting to visit with you both. SM: Well, thank you for doing this. AK: Of course! Absolutely. 55 of 54