Oral History Program Lori Newbold Interviewed by Nate Doutre 1 February 2018 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Lori Newbold Interviewed by Nate Doutre 1 February 2018 Copyright © 2023 by Weber State University, Stewart Library Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Weber State College/University Student Projects have been created by students working with several different professors on the Weber State campus. The topics are varied and based on the student's interest or task for a specific assignment. These oral history assignments were created to help Weber State students learn the value and importance of recording public history and to benefit the expansion of the Weber State oral history collections. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Newbold, Lori, an oral history by Nate Doutre, 1 February 2018, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, Special Collections and University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. iii Abstract: This is an oral history interview with Lori Newbold, who currently is the Director of Training Services for LDS Seminaries and Institutes. It was conducted February 1, 2018 and concerns her thoughts about women and leadership in northern Utah. The interviewer is Nate Doutre. ND: This is Lori Newbold. I’m Nate Doutre. It’s February 1st, and we are at Alta High School in the LDS Seminary Building. Lori, this interview is about, kind of to start with telling us about your background, your childhood, where you came from, that kind of thing. LN: So, I grew up in South Jordan, Utah. Just down the road from here a bit. My family has a long history there, like settled in the 1800s. So, the joke is that if you ever want to talk bad about somebody, you shouldn’t because they are probably related to me. Grew up there, lots of deep roots, you know, in South Jordan. I went to Bingham High School, graduated Bingham Miners there. Growing up, my family, I lived on a street with six houses and they were all cousins…all my dad’s side of the family. My Grandma’s on one side, which was cool, because cousins my age and we all got along really well. When I was in fifth grade my parents divorced, and my dad moved next door with my Grandma. So that was a little bit weird. Not a super normal situation, but from that time…my mom worked my whole life, but when they divorced she ended up getting a couple of jobs to help take care of us. I am a jack of all trades and a master of none. I do a little bit of everything, but I don’t do anything real well. I played sports. Everything but soccer. It’s the world’s favorite, but it’s my least favorite. I probably shouldn’t admit that, it may 1 hurt somebody’s feelings. I was in choirs, I did music. I was in dance from age three to high school, then I did a little bit of theater, a little bit of acting. I mean, I love to do everything, but I didn’t do anything crazy well. ND: Did you do any sports or anything in high school? LN: Yeah, so I played basketball, volleyball, and softball for Bingham through my junior year. And then my junior year I got cut from all three of them, which I laugh about now. I cried a lot then…but I can laugh now. That was kind of my upbringing. I have one sister and four brothers. Now all of my family, they are all in South Jordan and Riverton. I live in Sandy, so I’m the only one on the east side of the freeway, but we all still get along well. It’s good. I see my family a lot. ND: And where did you go after high school for your education? LN: So I graduated from BYU with a bachelor’s degree in psychology. Then eventually I went and got my master’s degree from the University of Phoenix in Mental Health Counseling. While I was in my undergrad I did a couple of study abroads. Like I went to BYU Hawaii, Jerusalem, and Nauvoo. They all did semesters at the time. I ended up graduating. I served an LDS mission when I turned 21 in Cincinnati, Ohio. I spoke English and was out there for a year and a half. ND: Did you come back a Red’s fan? LN: Sure. I love baseball, I mean…I’m a Giants fan to the core, but I could cheer for the Reds, especially since they are in the American League and the Giants are in the National League, so it works out all right. 2 ND: That’s awesome. Just more about you, do you have any hobbies or anything that you do now? That you enjoy doing? LN: You know, it’s kind of funny, because I still love to do a lot of those things. I love to go to the theater. I love to play sports. You know, as you get older you play “old lady” basketball, “old lady” softball…slow pitch and all that kind of stuff. If it’s a recreational league or a church league, I’ll try to play. Now, probably my bigger hobby is traveling. I have a goal to visit all seven continents before I die. ND: How many have you been to? LN: Six. ND: Wow! LN: So, I’m hoping, I don’t know how ‘near future’, but I’d really like to go to Antarctica. They have a cruise. ND: I figured that was your last one. LN: I know. I wish that was one I had checked off, but… In October I did a humanitarian trip to Peru. I took my nephew who was 14, and that was really fun. I spend a lot of time with my nieces and nephews. I have 14 of them now, and they’re delightful. So now my hobbies are more to do…it’s more about who I’m with than what I’m doing. Because, this sounds really bad and probably really spoiled, but I’ve pretty much done all the things in life that I wanted to do hobbywise, do you know what I mean? I’ve been skydiving. I’ve been scuba-diving. I’ve done all those things that you’re like, “Ahhh, someday I’m going to do…” because I love to play and see the world. So, now it’s just kind of more about who I’m with and what they want to do. I find joy in watching my nephews play Jr. Jazz or 3 going to my niece’s dance recital or soccer games. Even if I don’t like soccer, I like watching them play soccer, right? So, that’s a lot of what I do now. I like to read. I like to…seriously, I’ll tell you what I don’t like. I hate sledding. I don’t ever want to go sledding again in my entire life. And I really like to be warm, so I’m not a huge fan of winter. Anything summer, I’m outside. Let’s go on a hike, let’s go to the mountains, whatever. Winter…give me a space heater! ND: Haha! That’s awesome. So, going back to your childhood, but it can be anything that leads up to this point, but what experiences have you had that led you to believe that you would or could be a leader? LN: This is kind of a fun question. I have a strength. You know, you’re kind of just born with your personality to some degree. And you don’t really realize that when you’re young, that people have really strong different ones. You just kind of think kids are kids, but I’ve always been really outgoing, and bossy. I didn’t realize that I was bossy until you’d get older and people would be like, “That’s bossy.” And you’d be like, “Oh yeah.” I would get on the playground and I would organize, “Let’s play teams.” Even before, when I was little or in classes, teachers would ask me to, just because I was outgoing and I could make friends easy, because I would talk to people. I didn’t really have any, and still don’t really, have any social fears, many of them, you know? Which is good and bad. 4 But because I don’t, I’ll talk to the person behind me at 7-11…I mean, we kind of joke about it because, seriously, people buy my food, like, all the time, just because I’m friendly. I don’t even know it and the guy in front of me that I was talking to at 7-11, like, I went up to pay and he’s like, “He just bought your drink.” And I looked at him and he’s like, “Just keep smiling.” You know? Just stuff like that because we just chatted in line. That sounds like a weird thing to say, but I just…I really, really just love people. So, when I was a child, I would just talk to them and play. I mean, I’m sure I left people out, like everybody does, but I think I included. In school, my teachers would just call on me and then, I remember, there was a student council in elementary school. I ran for student council and got it. So you just kind of start to see...and then within my church, there’s been a lot of leadership opportunities. I’ve been called to be presidents or in presidencies of classes and organizations. So as I have gone through the years, or even on teams that I’ve played, like I’ve been captains of those teams, which people have just suggested or invited me to be. So, I don’t know if I ever made a conscious decision. I was trying to remember…I wrote a couple of things down. I think that was pretty much it. But I think it has to do with just how much I enjoy people. I think I realized that in the process, this is going to sound weird, but I think when you really love people, they’ll do a lot with you or for you, you know? And so, I think, young, I just started to realize that I had the ability to go with people. ND: Cool. I like that. It’s kind of cool that you get things bought for you. 5 LN: That’s so bad! In fact, we were at a restaurant just like, it was probably a month ago. It’s one of those Japanese restaurants that’s set up with a table and they cook your food in front of you. So, they seat you with people you don’t know. Anyway, I was with a friend, and this whole family was together, and we were talking to them. They had never been there before. So, we just started talking, and I said, “Oh, you’ve got to try this!” or whatever, and they didn’t order it, and so I was like, “Ok, you can taste mine. You have to! This is why you come here.” It’s for the noodles, you know? And they’re like, “Alright.” So he takes a bite off of my plate, you know? And then we go to get the bill, and the waiter was like, “Oh, it’s already taken care of.” I looked at him and he was like, “You guys were great. Have a great night!” I mean, it’s never with the intent to manipulate anybody, but I just…I genuinely love the human race. I love people. I think everyone you meet has something to teach you, because they have experiences that you are never going to have. So, by ignoring them, or being… and not that people ignore each other, but you know, I just feel like, I may never interact with you again. Tell me about your life so that I can learn about you and people. My nieces and nephews joke with me sometimes and are like, “You’re really weird!” I’m like, “I know, but they’re friends, right? Why can’t we all be friends?” ND: That’s awesome! That’s a cool attitude. So, what are your core values? I know you wrote down some stuff for that. But what are your core values and how have they influenced your leadership in life? 6 LN: The first one that came to my mind was the thought of honesty. I was raised in a home that was, you know, “Tell us the truth. No matter what happened.” You were going to be punished more for lying than for what happened, if you are not truthful about it. We can’t do anything if we don’t know what is really happening. We don’t know how to fix or improve or change or heal from anything if it’s not…and then through the course of my career, and even, I especially learned a lot about it through therapy. I got my degree in mental health counseling and I practice it part time. The only way anybody ever changes is when they get honest, with themselves and with other people. As long as there is excuses or there’s even, you know lots of times we try to save face or we try to make ourselves…putting our best foot forward or whatever, some of those things can be manipulative in our understanding. So, in my opinion, as a leader, I don’t know how to help you, if I’m not honest with you and you’re not honest with me. I would rather you tell me that you hate my guts than pretend that everything’s ok. Because I don’t know what to do with this, when I can sense, in everything you are acting like says, “That’s not it”, you know. But, “Nah, we’re good!” So, for me, my core values, and sometimes maybe to a fault, is to be honest with you about what I am thinking and saying. I’ve got to learn to filter sometimes, there is a time and place, but that’s one of them. I really, genuinely value honesty in return. I love it when people say to me things they think that I don’t want to hear, they are afraid of hurting or whatever. The only way you’d ever hurt me is if you don’t tell me honestly what you are thinking and feeling. 7 ND: Can I ask a clarifying question on that? LN: Yep. ND: You talked about you being honest with others and then also welcoming their honesty in return. How, as a leader, have you been able to elicit honesty in return from someone who maybe you’ve had experience with them, that were not? Does that make sense? LN: Yeah, that’s a good question, because that can be difficult. See, I actually think culturally, in a lot of places and environments, that’s not always a welcome…you know, especially in a career or a profession when people get with their boss, they want to look and be their best. Because they are trying to be their best, they want to help and support their boss, so sometimes they are afraid to say what’s really going on or to try and take care of things. I found that a lot of that needs to happen because we have a relationship. I assume often that people are going to be as honest with me as I am with them. And that doesn’t always work well, so this is one of my weaknesses is the honesty, right? So, one of the things I’m learning to do better about is making sure that you and I have a relationship so that you feel, the word that comes to my mind is “safe”, that you can tell me what you are really thinking and feeling and that I’m not going to lash back at you, but that I’m going to welcome it. I think it has to do with, in other situations of building you up, because when I honestly see something that you’ve done well, then I tell you, and that honesty speaks for itself. So, then it doesn’t feel like false praise or manipulative, it’s just therefore, 8 straight. I also have to be just as conscious, in honesty, to praise and build and strengthen, as to improve, reprove, or seek to correct. ND: That’s awesome. LN: It can be challenging, that balance. Every individual is different, you know, but sometimes, it takes a real effort to develop that relationship as well. With some people that means you spend more time with them, other people that means you spend less time with them, or you micromanage. Not micromanage, as that’s not always welcome, but you know, you have to learn how people operate, I think. And then you work within their sphere, so there’s that trust and that safety there. ND: The relationship comes first and then the honesty comes second, kind of. LN: I think yes. Unless somebody is a little like me, I mean, literally, you can be a straight stranger and you can come tell me how it is and that helps me. So, again, it’s kind of gauging personalities, but my work, professional across the board is, I work with seriously incredible people who are so hard working and so dedicated. So, in that process, it’s not hard to start with positive things and being honest about wonderful things that I see in people. I think the other part, maybe, one of the other core values has to do with loyalty. Because I also think that if, whoever you lead, feels like you are loyal to them, that you value them and that you matter to me and I’m going to do everything that I can as your supervisor to help you be successful, and vice versa. If they feel that loyalty, and I have to feel it, too, right? Because people can sense when you are faking it. Then that also causes them to want to perform to their best and figure out what’s right. And I know, sitting on the other side, 9 when I’ve been led, people who I feel like were there for me and to help me and wanted me to improve and succeed and become, I would tell them anything, because I knew they weren’t out to get me, they were out to help me. So, that was another one I wrote down. I shared a little bit, but the love for people. That’s a core value for me, across the board. Just loving people. And believing that everyone you meet has something they can contribute, and something to contribute in the work that we have. I love it when people have different strengths than I do, because we don’t need ten me’s. I want people to be better than me at certain things, and I want them to feel like, that I can use them. And they can rely on me and we can, that they can contribute. So, I think that matters a lot. And then maybe the last one I thought of, too, was hard working. It’s a really important value. As I said, I came from a home where, parent’s divorced, and my mom had to work three jobs to take care of us. She worked hard and we worked hard, because we had to do jobs and we had to mow the lawn and we had to…you know, there wasn’t a strong place in our home for gender roles, typical gender roles… [The camera stopped recording at this point, so the recording is missing about two minutes of Lori’s commentary on working hard. However, from my notes she mentioned learning how to do yardwork, her brothers learning how to cook, and everyone learning how to clean. There were no “traditional gender roles” in her home. That experience is why she values working hard. She admires a strong work ethic in others and seeks to help people develop that skill on their own. She 10 also remarked that if she is working with someone who does not have a strong work ethic, her first inclination is to assume that something in their life is off. She seeks to help remedy whatever is off in their life, which in turn fixes the situation.] ND: Do you have any other core values that were…? LN: I think the other one that matters to me is to be trustworthy. I think that honesty grows out of trust. Well, is that the way I want to say that…anyway, the idea that the more honest you are, the more that I can trust you. And the more I am with you, the more you can trust me. I really think this is one that since I was a little kid, the worst thing you could ever do is break a promise to me. Honestly, you could kick me in the shin before breaking a promise to me, and it would be ok. So, on the flip side, I didn’t break promises, and I don’t still. I won’t promise, unless I know I can follow through with it. If for some reason I couldn’t, it would be like a deathbed occurrence. That’s how passionately I feel about being trustworthy. It’s always mattered to me, like, I’m almost getting emotional. It’s always mattered to me, for you to be able to feel like you can give me something and that I’ll give my best, you know. So, anytime any type of leader has put trust in me I’ve wanted to just be trustworthy. And that’s something that matters so, so much for me. I can’t project that on other people. So, I realize the balance of that as a leader is that I have to be forgiving when somebody isn’t, you know? But, for me, I really try to always be trustworthy as a leader, as a sister, as an aunt, as a family member, you know. I want you to know that you can come to me and it will be safe. You can trust me with whatever it is. And if it is beyond my capability, I’ll 11 tell you, “You realize that you are asking me to do something that is far beyond my capacity, so there’s no guarantee of the results! I’ll try, but you need to know what you are getting into by asking me to do this.” ND: Well, but even in that regard, you’re promising to try, but not compete because you know that you can’t. LN: Yeah. ND: That’s kind of interesting. LN: Yeah, I always want to be trustworthy. I always want to be someone in your mind when you’re like, “Gall, who could I call or who could I depend on?” I want to be one of the first people who pops into your brain in all circumstances. That’s probably my other one. ND: Cool. So, this one is kind of fun, but name a person who has had tremendous impact on you as a leader. Maybe it’s a mentor, and then also, with that person, or people, you can talk about people if you want to, why and how did they impact you? LN: Yeah, I would say, I was thinking career-wise, right? Actually life-wise, too. You know Grant Anderson, right? I remember my first year of teaching. We had an area meeting, he did a training there, and I remember being so profoundly moved by his teaching. He’s such an effective teacher, right? Then, after the first year of teaching, we have what’s called the apprentice seminar. You come together with other teachers who have finished their first year, and then you talk about it and learn new things to continue your career well. At the time he was an administrator for Seminaries and Institutes, so, again this is a little bit of my 12 friendly personality, but I was like, “Ok, I see all these people…I’m going to sit with him at lunch!” Because, yeah, he’s a big deal, but I was just “Nah, I’m going to go sit with him and learn from him.” It was one of the best decisions I ever made in my career. I sat down next to him and I just started asking him questions about teaching and about how could I learn, what advice would he give a first-year teacher. And just that kind of stuff. That conversation shaped my career. I mean, I can still remember it. He left administration and went back to teaching at the U, so I took a class from him for three years. I live in South Jordan and I drove to the U because I was so…his leadership, his teaching just resonated with my personality. And again, that’s part of what Grant is, Grant is honest. All the time. He never needs to save face, he’ll just tell you how it is in the most refreshing, down-to-earth manner. Now that he’s back in administration, now I work closer with him. It has been an absolute strength for me as I’m learning more about my leadership position and stuff. So, I think a couple things that really mattered to me: One is that, he’s never one to jockey for position or to try and manipulate anything. His number one desire in all things, in all conversation is to do the right thing. What is best for students? What is best for the organization? And he’s governed by that. Literally I can’t ever think of a conversation where I’ve felt like he had any type of agenda. I know he’s got personal opinions, because I’ve literally said to him, “Ok, now tell me what YOU think. If you were making this decision, maybe not in this position…” 13 So we’ve had those conversations as we’ve strengthened our relationship, you know, but it’s been such a potent and powerful reminder to me of “What is your motivation in the work that you are doing?” And you always need to be motivated by what’s right for the people you’re serving and the organization and never be governed by other things. I think also one of the things that has really impressed me about him is that he’s just really wise. I get so passionate sometimes that I my quality that I’ve been working on in my life the last two years has been temperance. So, I’ve always been a passionate person, but I’ve also realized that passion can turn people off. And passion can work against you if you are not careful, right? So, I’ve been trying to bring that passion in a place, so it works for me. So that means that you don’t say what you are feeling or thinking, and you are a better listener. Sometimes your contribution is listening, rather than speaking. That’s been so good for me. We sit in meetings together, and, again, I watch him think and I watch him ask questions, clarifying questions. He’s the guy that everyone in the room wants to know what he’s thinking. Not that guy thinking, “Ok, we’ve heard enough about what you are thinking!” Everybody wants to know because the wisdom, and he’s been thoughtful. So, I’ve really tried to think, “Ok, rather than having opinions or throwing opinions, what don’t you see? You know, what don’t you understand? And how can you ask questions.” I’ve learned a lot of that from him, just by observing him and his wisdom and his patience. Which has really, really blessed my life. 14 ND: That’s really cool. So, you met him in your first year of teaching and now you get to work with him? LN: Yeah. ND: That’s a kind of cool circle. LN: Yeah, I mean, that’s what we’ve even laughed at, because then I was his student for three years, right? ND: Yes, ok. LN: When I was asked to go from a teacher to a principal, which was something I had never even considered as a possibility or an option for my career… ND: And how long had you been teaching at that point? LN: Six years. It had never crossed my mind and then all of the sudden, “I don’t know how to be a principal. I don’t know how to do administration, really, other than my little sphere.” So, I was like “Ok, well, who can I ask?” And he was the first person who popped into my mind. He was still up at the U and I was still taking a class from him, so, in our next class I said, “Hey, can you and I sit down for an hour outside of class and you give me some council on how to be an effective administrator or principal?” He said, “Yeah”. So, I went up there, and we sat for an hour and he just talked to me about what he’s learned through administration. And the funniest part is, administration is not his passion. Teaching is his passion. He just keeps getting asked to come back to it because he’s so effective, right? Anyway, he’s been a tremendous mentor to me. And for me, he is also a really safe place. I know that I can go to him and say, “Here are my thoughts.” He 15 understands my heart, and my desires, and he also understands and can see where I’m out of line. He’s so patient at bringing those things into line for me and helping me make sense. He’s a great sounding board and a great, mentor is really the word I would use for him. It’s impacted both my career and outside my career because of what I’m learning from him. ND: That’s really neat. Does he know you think that way about him? LN: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. ND: Ok, because I was thinking of sending him a quick note, “Just so you know…” LN: I mean, you still could, I wouldn’t have any qualms about it. He definitely knows, I’ve told him a hundred times, you know, I couldn’t be more grateful for your impact in my life because it just is so important right now of how I’m being shaped. ND: That’s cool. So what do you see as the biggest challenge of being a woman leader in Northern Utah and what do you do to overcome those challenges? LN: Well, that’s a good question. I’ve been pretty fortunate in my career to honestly not have a lot of gender issues arise, so to speak, right? But I think there are challenges in it and they are very real. I think one of the things we are up against in general is culture. You know, as a society, it’s been a very male leadership society for years. I mean, you see it in all these studies. Even from education to all these types of things. I think that we’re improving, no doubt. We’re leaps and bounds ahead of where we were 20 years ago. But I think we still have somewhat of a ways to improve. 16 I think that sometimes, that culture, it feeds into the way that people perceive leadership as well, right? You can have a really capable woman, but you are used to being led by a man, and it goes both ways. I think some men have a hard time being led by men, I mean, some women have a hard time being led by women. Because across the board we, for generations we’ve just been a very male-dominate leadership. So, culturally anytime a woman is in a leadership position, I probably shouldn’t say anytime, because that’s probably too general. In my experience, I’ve even had people within Seminaries and Institutes, there’s a lot more male teachers than female teachers, right? In our administration positions there’s a lot more men than women. So, I’ve had people who’ve even said to me, “I didn’t even know women could teach!” That’s never been one of our policies, that they couldn’t, but people just in their minds assume that seminary teachers are male. When I was asked to be principal at Alta High School, people were, “Whwh-what?” Or they would come in, or even the school, they’d just say, “Wait a minute, I mean, who are you? Are you the secretary?” I just think culturally, I mean, a lot of religions have a strong male leadership, you know, but even outside of religions, just jobs and employment across the board. So, I think cultural is definitely one challenge that they face. Another one is confidence. I think because of the way culture has been, I think women, some women, I want to be careful, I don’t want to overgeneralize in any of this, right. 17 ND: No, you’re fine. This is your experience, so you’re good. LN: So, I think that some women, it takes a certain amount of confidence to lead men when you are used to being led by men. Some women have a hard time remembering how capable they are. Or they get in a setting and they’re uncomfortable because, you know, in Seminaries and Institutes, again, there’s less women. Often, it’ll be you. Most of my faculties, I’ve been the only female teacher on the faculty, so I’ve worked with myself and nine male teachers. Some women feel like, “Ok, how do I…” You know, and then to lead, that can be a challenge, too. So, I think for some women, for whatever reason, the confidence factor can kick in, and not that they are any less capable. It’s just remembering that they are. It’s almost sometimes a self-imposed perspective that can be more damaging. I think another one that women face has to do with the balance between work and family. I feel like we’ve had kind of a spectrum for a long time. Back in the 50s hardly any women worked. And now, the way our society and moving toward activists have gone so far to the other end of saying, “No, you’ve gotta prove that you can have a career and that you can lead. Put family on hold.” Some women desire family, but they also desire to be an example that women can be educated and that women can lead. And so, you go back and forth on this continuum, and I think that both extremes are really unhealthy. I don’t know if part of the reason I never struggled with it much is because my mom was educated. She has a master’s degree, and I grew up in a home where I honestly didn’t know until my senior year that people didn’t go to college. 18 That sounds so weird, but in my family, it was an expectation, like, for myself and cousins. I remember having a conversation with my friend when it came time to turn in college applications and I said, “Where are you applying to?” She said, “I’m not.” “What do you mean? What do you mean you’re not? Like, that’s an option?” And she said, “Yeah, I’m just gonna work?” I said, “You can do that?” I mean, that sounds so silly, but, even when I played ball, I was always thinking about where I wanted to try and get a scholarship to. You know, that was half the motivation, was for school and half was to play. Neither of those worked out, obviously, like I said. I think that that was just an interesting upbringing for me. I had a mom who was competent. I had a mom who was confident, who worked. I mean, it was hard, sometimes, you know, to come home from school—when I was in elementary school and we were off track and my mom was at work, she felt bad because she wanted to be home with us, and we wanted her to be home with us. So Grandma would help out, or we were old enough we could kind of take care of ourselves, but, that’s kind of sketchy, too. Leave us home by ourselves and we’re in fifth and third grade, all day, every day for three weeks. So that posed a challenge for her. I think there are women who would be great leaders and great contributors, but have chosen to put their families first. Which is beautiful when that works. And there are other women who would choose, maybe, to not work 19 as much, but life’s circumstance of illness or divorce, death, or whatever, led them, you know. Then there’s others who are gifted and have a passion for their career, and they have a passion for family, so just trying to manipulate that balance can be hard on a lot of levels for women. I think that’s something that they face, that they, as they go into it, of trying to, “What do I want a career path to be?” I know some women who say, “Well, I’m going to get, I may accept a lower paying job or a lower qualified job because it allows me the hours that my kids are in school. ND: Right. LN: So, even though I’m capable of this, I’m going to choose this so I can be home when my kids are home. Then as a result, they do that job, and they do it well, but sometimes they feel unfulfilled in their job because it’s too easy for them. When I was thinking about that question of challenges that they face, I think those are some of it. The other one I think that happens, going back to my continuum perspective, is that I think that some women become motivated by a strong feminist perspective, so much that that becomes an identity for them. I am a big believer in advocacy. I’m a huge believer in passion but like I said earlier, passion can turn people off, right? So sometimes the challenge when you get in an organization and you’re confident in all of that, you can actually slow down the change that you’re trying to create because you’re over critical. I think there’s an element to saying, “I can see where change needs to take place, but I’m going to 20 come in the flow and I’m going to be a trusted voice rather than a wearying voice. I don’t’ know the word I’m looking for, but does that make sense? I think that even when you’re in a profession or a career, there are changes that I see need to take place, and there are changes that have needed to, and I feel like the best way to accomplish those is start to work with those that make decisions and make suggestions and educate them. Bring perspective, you know? Educate them sounds condescending. I didn’t mean it that way, but you know, informing more than persuading. I believe that when something’s right, that’s when real change begins to take place. It’s often slow and steady, and you live with a little bit of injustice. I’m not excusing it, but I’m saying, I think there’s just a balance perspective that will really make things happen and tempering your passion is a challenge to do when you’re trying to bring about change. ND: That’s cool. It’s a cool perspective. A patient perspective. LN: And it’s hard! ND: I’m sure! LN: I mean who wants to stare at gaps or frustrations every day? It can be really hard. I’ve learned a lot that way. Like I said, I’ve been pretty fortunate in my own personal experience, I’ve always felt equal in my career. I’ve always felt that way. And I’ve always felt valued. But I’ve known many that haven’t, where that hasn’t been the case, so I have a very tender spot for that, and I can see how that works. That’s just my own experience. ND: Can I just revisit something you said earlier? You talked about when you were first principal or even when you were teaching, and people were like, “Wait, 21 whoa, women can be principals or teach or whatever?” And I know you originally said you didn’t see it as an obstacle or anything, but how did you approach that? LN: Sometimes it was as simple as “Well, they are!” “Here I am!” (laughter) You know? ND: Laughs LN: And then it, depending on what kind of day I was having and what mood I was in. But again, I realize that the way I respond in that moment gives me two opportunities. It gives me the opportunity to shut someone down and make them feel like an idiot. Or, it gives me the opportunity to educate and further a conversation to promote understanding. And like I said, it depends on the day how good I was, but I tried saying, “Yea, in fact, we have other women or we need more good women,” You know? Some of those types of things. So, I wasn’t always as graceful as I ought to have been, because it does get old sometimes. ND: Oh, for sure! LN: But, in handling it I tried to just say, “Yeah, and I love my job and I love the opportunity.” It was usually not a critical thing, just a surprise. So when I got criticism, I tried to handle it the way I would any other criticism of what I was doing. But for the most part, it was just on the surprise side. ND: Ok, so I’m going to hit that one more time, but the audio is still going so we’re ok. I’m loving learning from you, by the way. You’re just cool. So what advice would you give, and if you want since I know you’re in Young Women’s, you can think of giving advice to one of them, but what advice would you give emerging young women leaders in order to be successful? 22 LD: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think one of the first things I would say is that you need to be true to yourself. When you recognize your strengths and your interests and your offerings and pursue things along those lines and believe that, going back to that confidence issue. I think there’s a matter of being true to yourself that really matters in any profession at any time in any leadership in any way. You have to live with you, you have to sleep at night. So when I lay down at the end of the day, I want to be able to say, “I did the best that I could today with what I had.” I felt like I was honest in my efforts and I was honest in my perspective. So male or female, be true to who you are and what your values are. Sometimes that’s going to mean you’re overlooked, and sometimes that will mean that opportunities are going to come and you would get the opportunity if you were willing to be less than true. My thought has always been,” I don’t want to work for an employer like that, or a place like that I couldn’t sleep at night.” So, I think that’s one of them. In that process, I would say, kind of the idea of taking that passion and tempering it, you’ve gotta let your work speak for itself. If I always have to tell you how wonderful I am, then I don’t think I’m doing it right. I believe if I’m always focused on doing the right thing, you’re going to want me on your team, regardless of my gender, because I’m doing the right thing. I’m giving you the results that you’re searching for. I don’t have to prove anything to anybody about what I can do or not, because you’re going to get the results you want as a supervisor and a leader. And then you’re going to say, “Wow! That’s somebody that I can trust.” So again, that’s criticism. Because I don’t think that you turn a 23 blind eye to the fact that you are a woman in a leadership position and that’s a minority. I can’t say, “Well that doesn’t matter!” I mean, it does matter! I want to be aware enough that this is different and it matters, but also, I think that the moment my motivation becomes about defeating or proving prejudice wrong, then I’ve started to fail in whatever I’m doing. My motivation is to do the right thing. My motivation is to accomplish and lift and strengthen whoever I’m serving. Or whatever way I’m making it better. When I start to focus more on the prejudice than on the desired outcome, doing the right thing, then I lose the opportunity to make the difference that I’m seeking to make. So again, I’m conscious of it. I’m aware of it. When I walk into a room of ten men and myself, I’m definitely aware that I’m the female there. And I maybe have a unique perspective to offer, and a voice, but I put that voice in context of helping come to the right decision, not “I’m a woman here you all need to listen to me.” So, it’s a tough balance. And I’m not always good at it, because sometimes you do feel passionately. I believe that men and women aren’t the same in all ways. You do have unique perspectives and different ways. Especially in teaching. There were a lot of students who, for whatever reason, maybe something had happened in their life, they just needed a male at that time. And opposite. I had students who were nightmares for a male, and they came into my class and they just needed a female influence in their life, and thrived in my class. So there’s a couple different instances where I watched that. So it’s a real thing to not say that we’re the same and that we shouldn’t even notice that we’re different. If we could use those 24 strengths, and play to those strengths, I think that would be miraculous. I think if girls or women who are looking at that, remember to start to lead and try to do it that way would be good. I also put down, the other one I guess I thought of too, was the power of preparation. I’m a big person in believing, if you want a leadership responsibility, be ready for it. So start to prepare yourself for those things. That’ll help you build your confidence so that when the opportunity comes, you can thrive and you can take advantage of it. If I were to encourage them to do anything, it would be that. And to recognize that there will be opportunities you don’t even anticipate. But if you’re seeking to continually prepare yourself, then you’ll be ready for the things you didn’t even realize you needed to be ready for. I think that’s probably been my own experience, like, when I got asked to be a principal, I thought, “What!?” And then I learned that there were some leadership skills I had learned on the playground and through church opportunities and through teams and stuff that I thought, “Okay, yeah, I do know how to take a group of people and create a synergy for a main goal. Now I’ve just got to take that off the basketball court and put it into a faculty language.” So understanding preparation and striving to do some of those things. But again, not with the passion of “Listen, I’m going to throw everyone and everything out because I’m going to be the example,” but more so, I want to do the right thing. And as I go to do the right thing in this, my actions are going to speak. And sometimes they speak, and people still get looked over. So I don’t want to pretend like that kind of stuff doesn’t happen or that this is a magical cure-all. I 25 would hope that we always prepare and try to strive for the best possible scenario and then roll with the one that comes that maybe is less than ideal. And then, the other one that I would say is to be resilient. So when the opportunity doesn’t come and you are overlooked, and somebody does say the wrong thing, again I’m not turning a blind eye to it, but I’m going to choose to be resilient. Whether it’s a comment about my gender or it’s a comment about something else, I don’t want bitterness to reside in my soul. I don’t want to be a person that’s ever governed by bitterness, I want to be motivated by love and by an ability to love and change and lift wherever I can. So whatever the reason that I am overlooked, experience that pain. Go through it, work through it. And then don’t allow it to change the course of your path for the rest of your life. Be resilient and work through it so that you can still be effective and work through all the talents that you have and all the qualities that you’ve developed. I think that would probably be it. ND: That’s awesome. Then our last question is, what other insights can you share about being a woman leader in Northern Utah? LN: You know; I don’t think I have any. I think I’ve said a lot. Like I said, we need all different types of personalities, all types of strengths, to do all types of work. So figure out what you’re good at and what you like and what you enjoy. I will tell you this, when I graduated from BYU (I’m not a big fan of graduations. Love that we have them, and what it means, but not sitting through them.) I did go to my own. The speaker, I don’t’ even remember his name, but he gave some of the best advice that I’ve ever heard. It’s governed my life. Literally my life, personally 26 and professionally. He said, “The one thing I want to tell you guys as you graduate and move on, is to write your dreams in pencil.” And then he shared his own personal experience with some goals he’d had for a lifetime and then his wife got cancer. And he said “In that moment we had a choice that we could either be bitter or we could create a new dream.” That has just resonated with me through so many different circumstances. I would say in that same spirit of developing yourself, do it, create dreams, write them in pencil, develop yourself, educate, work, serve, build humanity, build your community. And be ready for opportunities in front of you. But also, don’t get so stuck on one that you didn’t get that you miss another one. There are endless opportunities in front of us to change the world. Every person that you meet is a person to lift for the day. And do it! Sometimes we get so caught up in what we aren’t having, the dream we aren’t living, that we miss the one that could create a new one. So whatever that is, I would just say, find your value and then go after it. But be willing to contribute in lots of different ways. Because the world needs lots of contributions. ND: Thank you! LN: You’re welcome! ND: I just realized. I don’t think we ever said what your official job title is. Is it Director of Training Services? LN: Yes. ND: Okay. Do you have to put “with seminaries and institutes” at the end? 27 LN: You could I guess, yeah. The Director of Training Services for Seminaries and Institutes for the LDS church. I mean, you know, you could make it REALLY long if you want to. ND: And you’ve been doing that for two years? LN: A year and a half actually. June will be two years. And I have to say that, because I’m still not that good at it. ND: Whatever! LN: So I still get some more grace period. Like if I say two years, you’d be like, “Oh, you should be able to do this.” But a year and half, I buy myself some time. They’re like, “Oh okay, you’re still new at this!” ND: Well thank you for your time. I appreciate you. LN: You’re welcome. Thank you! 28