Oral History Program Benjamin Noid Interviewed by Jeff Stagg 12 March 2014 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Benjamin Noid Interviewed by Jeff Stagg 12 March 2014 Copyright © 2014 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Golden Hours Senior Center provides services to many patrons in Ogden, Utah. In 2014, the public history class conducted oral histories with several of these community members, cover topics such as World War II, education, segregation, Weber State University, Ogden City, and 25th Street during the 1940s and 1950s. These interviews add to the community history of Weber County. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Noid, Benjamin, an oral history by Jeff Stagg, 12 March 2014, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Benjamin Noid March 12, 2014 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Benjamin Noid, conducted by Jeff Stagg on March 12, 2014 at the Golden Hours Senior Community Center. Ben discusses his experiences with Weber State and all he has done for the University. Lorrie Rands is also present as the recording technician. JS: Hi Ben. BN: Hi Jeff, it’s nice to have you here, and I’m looking forward to talking about myself. People like to talk about themselves. JS: Great subject. So, Ben, what year were you born? BN: 1928. JS: And where was that? BN: Sacramento, California. JS: Now you had a lot to do with Weber State. How did you get to start working at Weber State? BN: Well, like most of us, our lives get a little bit complicated, but I was going to the University of Utah to finish my course work for the doctorate in theater history because at the time I was employed at Stockton College California as the Theatre director and teacher of speech and the occasional English class. I was going to school full-time finishing my PhD course work and working about half time teaching a half load as the teaching assistant in speech department and the English department. I taught freshman English for that year. Also one class per quarter. 2 One day Dr. Lowell Lees, the chairman of the speech and theater department, my immediate boss so to speak in the academic line, stopped me in the hall and said, “Ben, I think you should go over to Ogden, to Weber State, because they’re looking for a department chairman.” And I said, “Okay.” Well, though I wasn’t interested, I didn’t tell him I wasn’t interested, because you want to be on the good side of your boss. The next week, he saw me in the hall again, he said, “Ben, did you go over to Weber State?” I said, “No.” And he started to get angry. And so I figured that I’d go. I said, “Well, I’ll go over and talk to them.” I had a good job. I was at the top of the pay scale at Stockton College, in Stockton, California, and I had tenure. I also had just, the year before, finished supervising the construction of my new theater. Which was a small, little theater, and it had twin turned… I’m sorry, I get all tied up in details like that. But, anyway, it was a neat facility. So, I wasn’t really interested in anything else, but I thought I’d better come over. So, I came over to Weber State, and set up a meeting with President Miller, William Miller, the President of the College, and he had Dr. Clark, Robert C. Clark, come in as well; he was the Dean of Faculty. So I was sitting there, in his office, having a nice time, answering their questions, and talking about what I had done. And I didn’t know anything about the background, which I mentioned; I later learned that they had been looking for a Department Chairman for the Department of Speech and Theater for nine months, scouring the country. And I came walking in happy and relaxed, and that probably was a good thing, and they talked to me for three hours! And after an 3 hour or two, I was sitting there, I was enjoying myself, talking about me, like I am now, and in the back of my mind, I was wondering why are they spending so long? I didn’t know about the history, and now, thinking about it, I know. And the next morning, they offered me the job. Dr. Leland Monson, who was, in my mind, perhaps, the third most important person on campus. He was responsible for two thirds of the academic work, he was over the sciences, and arts, sociology, psychology, really tremendous span of control. And, he called me, my rented home in Salt Lake, and said that I had the job if I wanted it. What a surprise. So, anyway, the bottom line, I decided to take the four year college, leave the two year junior college, and come here, because I thought, I could do much more in my specialties. So, here I arrive, the fall of 1963. The first full year, that Weber offered the four year degree, and graduated the first four year students, of the college, the next June. So, that was when I started. At that time, the college was quite primitive. I believe, the Union building, the main part of the Student Union Building was there, the gym was there. And there were four, we called “cracker boxes,” long low rectangular buildings, roughly north and south, going up the hill. The first one contained the administrative offices, where the President’s office was, and so on. I’ve forgotten which is which, but the other academic areas worked up the hill, and the Browning Center for the Performing Arts’ first phase was under construction. So, my office was on the top floor of the fourth building which was the only two-story building in that list, if you had seen pictures. They were painted green. I don’t 4 know if they were trying to camouflage… no. My unfortunate sense of humor. And, in the top one, they had the library in two rooms; two rooms of the fourth building, on the second floor, where my office was, they had the library. Next to those four buildings, there was a small building, which was the old Student Union Building. So, I was there, but I think, really, why I was hired, one of the main reasons was, that I just finished, essentially, designing with the architect. I didn’t do any building, but constructing a theater. And the first phase of the Fine Arts Center contained, what is now the Austad Auditorium, and they were just finishing that. And Phase Two, which was to contain two theaters was still in the planning stage. So, I helped with that, and if you saw the floor plan of the Allred Theater, and my theater in Stockton, you can see the stage similarity; the large fore stage area, large backstage area, which reflected all of the technical work that I had done through the years, beginning in high school. Where I didn’t start out to act or anything, I just kind of drawn into the theater thing. So, I had also directed over 50 productions, by that time, I was just 35. I had done a lot, where most teachers, or directors, at a college will direct one, or possibly two, plays a year. Maybe one in the fall, and one in the spring. I did four, two in the fall, and two in the spring. Anyway, I don’t want to get lost, and that, we’d better stick with Weber. But I had a lot of experience, so I knew what I was doing. So, I really respected President Miller, and Dr. Clark, very, very much. He was a wonderful man. The planning he did for Weber State, well, not that he did, but he was responsible for, was a central campus with parking lots all the way 5 around. You are probably aware of the parking problem now. You can thank the presidents after President Miller for that. Because, they started plunking buildings down where there were supposed to be parking lots. Gee, look at all this space here, let’s put a building over there. And they did that over, and over again. Later, the parking lot in front of the Fine Arts Center, was redone, right in front of my very eyes. Because my office was on the top floor, and I’d look out; they’d redone the parking lot three times, that I know of. Then they redid it again, when they put in the big art building over there. That took some of the parking; it just goes on and on. Each president would look at things, I think, and say, “Well, we really need this, so we’ll do that.” But the result was that some people were parking several blocks away from the college. Which irritates the people in the neighborhood, has for years, but it’s just a problem. But, I wanted to compliment President Miller on his foresight, and his planning. He was just a very, very fine person. I don’t think anybody ever said anything contrary. It was like a big family. There were only 74 people, as I remember, 74 faculty and staff when I came. The student body was 2,800. I remember that because it was the same at the University of Pacific where I got my Bachelor’s Degree in Music, vocal music; 2,800 students in the whole university. So, here I am, 2,800 student again. At the end of the line after 28 years at Weber, there were about 15,000. I think, depending on how you think of it now, I’ve heard, with the campus, and Davis County, maybe 25,000. What have you heard? JS: Something like that. 6 BN: Okay, when you add everybody up. So, there was a tremendous growth period. At one point, the psychology department needed an extra teacher to teach a course. It wasn’t a course, it was an experience called “The Human Potential Seminar,” psychology something or another. Before we started, I mentioned my liking to pick up extra money, and, of course, this was an extra job. The wonderful 20 hours, and we had 12 people in the group, and we helped them explore their potential. Going back in history, one of the things we did was to help them analyze their motive, motivations to do things. All of us, now I’ll be teaching, talking like a teacher, all of us have primary and secondary motivations. Everybody does in varying. Some people only have one primary, some have two or three primary motivators. All of us have secondary motivators. But for you to feel success and happiness in an activity, and be able to finish it, you need to have one of these primary motivators present. We go into things, sometimes, because of our secondary motivators, and then we wonder why am I having trouble here, finishing or doing well? Often it’s because one of the primary motivators is not there. Well, in the process of helping these students, I located my two primary motives: creativity and challenge. That has helped me since, in just knowing that. It helps to explain how I feel about things, and so on. So, that was a wonderful experience, that “Human Potential Seminar,” and helping people to look into the prejudices inside of themselves, and to change, and I did that to myself. Anyway, it was great, I learned to appreciate young men who wore diamond earrings in each earlobe. Remember when I was born. You say, “Well yeah, so what? This 7 is usual these days.” There was one of these fellows; I learned to look more into people, into the real person behind. Anyway, it was a good experience for me, extending out into other disciplines. Well, back to the beginning. The first year I was privileged to be able to direct a play, Major Barbara, by George Bernard Shaw down at the old Moench building. It was still there on Jefferson, between 24th and 25th Street, across from the county library. I’m just very grateful for that experience, because Weber had no theater, there was no stage. Their plays had to be performed down at the old Moench Building. The year before I arrived, John Elsey, who was in the Theater Department, directed Carousel down there, on that stage. So, it made me feel good, through the years, because I had personal contact with the old days. It was one of those things that gave you a feel. The faculty was like a big family, it really was. Oh, half a dozen of the men on the faculty, including some of the top one or two of the administrators, would go to graduation in their caps and gowns, but under the gown, they would wear their fishing equipment. So, immediately on coming out of the graduation ceremony, they would take off their caps and gowns, get in their car, and go up to the cabin that the head of the Music Department had up in Montana, I think it was Dr. Clair Johnson. And they would all go up, every year, they’d go up there, spend a week or two, right after school. It was just a great feeling to be part of that, and to be accepted, and so on. The next year, oh, at the end of that year, I had been on a year’s leave away from Stockton’s college. I was kind of in the position of not wanting to jump 8 off the diving board whole heartedly, so I left one foot on the diving board. You can visualize what would happen. But, anyway, so, at the end of that first year, the Department of Speech and Theater voted unanimously to retain me as the Department Chairman. I figured, okay, I’m solid, I’m safe. And so I quit my job in California. The next year, we went into production in the Browning Center of Performing Arts, the Austad Auditorium. I directed in the spring, My Fair Lady, which I really liked. I wanted to do a lot more with musical theater at Weber, at that time. Remember, this is 1964, ’65. Weber had, has, a wonderful costume department. Nebeker was her last name—I can’t remember her first name now— was the in charge of costume department at that time, and she was a wonderful seamstress. The scenery and staging was under the direction of Therald Todd, who was a very talented theater person. Music was under Mr. Donald Threlkeld, who was the band director. Interesting thing about it was, that all of the faculty were admitted free, all of the students were admitted free, all of the staff were admitted free, okay? Our budget was the largest budget, as far as I know, ever, for a theater production at Weber. $8,000 was our budget. So, in two weekends, three performances one weekend, three performances the next weekend, and the money had to come from the community—at least $8,000. By that time, I was also the Director, the first Director, of the Browning Center for Performing Arts. And, I had a secretary, and I had a staff, a backstage staff of students that I trained as assistant stage managers to handle outside groups who would come in to do the lighting, etc. I set up all of the paper work, the forms, so that’s part of 9 my creativity, I just liked doing that sort of thing. I also, at the time, same time, was the Chairman of the Speech and Theater Department, with offices on the top floor of the Fine Arts Center, and then downstairs, in the lobby area, I had another secretary, who was the secretary for the Fine Arts Center. So, I also did the publicity and promotion for My Fair Lady as well as directing the stage action. And, I mention that because it was very important, because we had to have a lot of people there for the first weekend, to be able to make the budget. Well, I take a long time to say things, but we grossed $12,000, a profit of $4,000, which was unbelievable at that time. And, so, that happened to work out to be last stage production that I directed, because, after that, it became apparent that some of what I wanted to happen, and some of the other members, happen in the area of the performing arts, just wasn’t going to happen. And I wanted to turn Weber State into the center of theatrical activity, especially musical theater. For the whole intermountain west, we were going to outdo Universities, all of them; BYU included, we could do it. But, it wasn’t quite in the cards. I am over simplifying, and maybe even distorting a little bit, but we decided to split the department. Because, I could see more possibilities for creating, building, in the Speech area, I took the Speech Department. Leaving theater behind in very capable hands of Dr. Rowley, Leonard Rowley, and I don’t know if John Elsey had his doctorate, but anyway, maybe he got it, Dr. Elsey. I’ll promote him if he didn’t get his doctorate; he was a very talented director and actor. I took Speech. We developed the Speech department into the Department of Communication. It may sound funny now, but Debate was in the English 10 Department, under the personal direction of Dr. Leland Monson, as a junior college. Debate and Forensics at Weber had a wonderful history going back into the thirties as a junior college. We brought Debate and Forensics over into the Department of Communication. Journalism was in the English Department. We brought Journalism over into the Department of Communication. Larry Stayle became the main teacher in Journalism, and the advisor of the Sign Post. A wonderful person. His family owned several weekly newspapers, so his background was excellent. We were trying to, we tried for quite a few years to develop an area of Public Relations, and finally we got our Public Relations Major, but it was after I ceased being a Department Chairman. I was a Department Chairman for nine years, all together, at Weber. Let’s see, what else? Oh, and we brought technical writing over from the English Department. Technical Writing had not been taught for quite a few years in the English department, but I could see how, in terms of communication, you have writing, you have speaking. Of course, we had all of the speech areas: Public Speaking, Parliament Procedure, Discussion, Phonetics, Voice and Diction, Interpretation, etc. So, later on, we developed the technical writing area so successfully that we needed to add teachers in that area. Bill Porter began a program in our department, developed a wonderful program in technical writing, and then he was lured away to BYU to be the advisor for the Daily Universe. I don’t know how you feel about this, but I was always a little bit amused in the title Daily Universe. They may have had distribution outside of this country, and nation, and world, but I’m not aware of it, 11 and they have reporters outside of this solar system, but it was called the Daily Universe. That left us without a technical writing teacher. So, okay, guess who? I said I’m not going to lose the program. So I taught technical writing, and developed that into a fairly strong program where we needed a teacher. I said, well give us an English Teacher, and they didn’t do it. I traded, horse trading, traded technical writing back to the English Department, and they gave us Listening. So, we had, we didn’t have writing, per se, but we had Journalism, and Speaking, Listening. About that time, Dixon Cloward, Dr. Cloward, in the Business Department, came to me and asked me to develop a core course in the Logistics Program. If you’re not away, Dick Cloward began the first Logistics Education Program in the Country, with the people at Hill Field. And so, I developed a course called Oral and Written Communication: Logistics 110, and taught that for a number of years at Hill Field. As far as I know, it’s the only class that was taught for several years with three teachers. All of whom got a full salary. This is bothersome to administration, because I wanted to put Humpty Dumpty together again. In order for you to learn about communication, and, essentially, you almost have to still do it, you have to take a class in Speaking. You need a class in Listening, though most people don’t take a class in Listening. You have Reading, which we didn’t have, except in Oral Interpretation in Literature. Of course, the writing part, and I wanted to put all of the Communication stuff in one class. So, we had: a teacher for the oral part, me, we had a teacher from the English Department, Gene Hawkins, whose husband was one of the assistant 12 football coaches; wonderful, beautiful lady. She had the attention of the men in the class, believe me. She liked to joke. Then we had a teacher in the Listening and Reading. So, we had three teachers up there, as long as I could keep the salaries coming. Cause, after a couple of three years, Dixon would ask me, do you we really need three teachers. Well, finally, we cut out the Listening and the Reading, and we had two then for a long time. Jack Steele who was in the English Department, a wonderful teacher, joined me out there. I learned to appreciate the teaching abilities of other as a faculty first hand because we were there all of the time. I mean, we didn’t come in, do our thing, and then go away. I was there when Jack was teaching, and Gene, and the others, and vice versa. We were kind of tuning in to each other. And I still think that’s a good idea to do that. As far as in the Speech area, beside Public Speaking, we did a little discussion. Well, so that was an extra thing, we did. And, then I went into Reader’s Theater Productions. I had a class in advanced public, in advanced interpretation, oral interpretation of literature. Could you imagine? Maybe you can’t. It’s hard for me to imagine, taking a class of just whoever signs up for the class, and doing a public performance for the community, in one of the theaters with the people in that class. And, I did, I was very full of my own powers. I could do it. Many of the students were very doubtful, they didn’t sign up for a class to perform in front of the public. But, anyway, we would write a readers theater show. We would take literature of one type or another, and work it into a 13 theatrical program. We performed in The Round, in the, I believe it is still the Monson Theater, downstairs, in Phase, as I think of it, the Phase Two of the Fine Arts Center. I’d had a lot of experience here, because out in California, experience with the theater in the round. Because, when I came to Stockton College, they didn’t have a theater. They gave me a large room in the Agricultural Building, which I turned into a theater. Put a patrician across with old scenery, and platforms with seating, and had grid built to hang lights on, and a little curtain around, which didn’t fool anyone, but it made it look a little better. In the six years I was there, I did about 24 productions in The Round. Plus, other stuff; I also staged, with the same students, I had this little group of students helping. We staged six grand operas with the University of Pacific. Dr. Lucas Underwood, whom I knew, was their opera Director, and I wanted to help him, because I respected him, liked him a lot. I was a student under him, working on the operas and stuff when I was there as a Music Major. Anyways, so we did that. And that led me…. I back track a little bit. When I first came here. I wanted to do the same thing here. I wanted Weber to do an opera and a musical, one a year; one in the spring and one in the fall. And that’s similar to the experience I had at the University of Utah; in the summer theater there, when I first went back there on a graduate fellowship, the first summer I was there. The summer of 1950, we did Promise Valley, which was an account of the LDS people coming to here, the musical, and Faust, the opera by Gounod. So, I mean, I had that in my background, I knew we could do it, but Dr. Johnson, 14 the Head of the Music Department, apparently didn’t. So, we didn’t do it; I couldn’t do the music to it. But I had confidence in people like Therald Todd with the scenery, and my own abilities to stage it, because I had staged Aida, Traviata, Il trovatore, by Verdi. For Aida, I had 128 people on stage at one time. Back to Weber, I thought we could do the same thing here. Those others in the department of Speech and Theater, wanted to have more performing arts. Now there is a Department of Performing Arts, and they’re doing musical theater, they do great things at Weber now, that we had looked at, and I wanted to be part of, but it just wasn’t going to happen for awhile. So, I went off. I’m simplifying into Speech, and did what I could there, and did the Reader’s theater, that basically was somewhat successful; as part of that, I wrote a Readers Theater for the Episcopal Church of the Good Shepherd, here in the community. On the occasion of the dedication of the Episcopal Church of the Good Shepherd as an historical site; if you want an awkward title, that’s it, but that’s what it was. With some of my students from Interpretation Class, we put this on. I did research about the Protestant Church, and, specifically, the Episcopal Church in Ogden, from the beginning, and we worked that into a Reader’s Theater performance. The Governor, and I, I’m sorry, I can’t remember, I think it was Governor Rampton, came and spoke. Anyway, the Governor came and spoke at the dedication ceremony, and we had 30 or 40 minute readers of presentation. Seemed to be successful. So, Readers Theater, I was still able to do things in theaters, a little bit, and that part make me happy. For about 20 years, I also was in charge of the 15 individual events for what usually was the largest high school forensics tournament in the country. This had been developed by Dr. Monson, because of his interest of speech when he was in charge of the Debate Program. So I did that, and it was very successful. We would often have a thousand high school students here. It just was really big stuff. Brought students onto the campus. As I remember being told, in order to have students want to go to an institution, you need to get them onto the campus. Well, this got students here, it helped build our student base for years. As I’m thinking about our Forensic Program now, the second year I was here, I interviewed Randy Scott, who was a high school student wanting a debate scholarship. And, he got it; and went on to win more trophies for debate and individual events, like oratory, than anybody in the history at Weber State, and they had a history. They did very well, but he won more trophies, I don’t remember how many, but a lot. But enough so that we built a trophy case in the Fine Arts Center, just for that, in the lobby. I don’t if it’s still there or not. Later on, he came back as our debate coach. One of his students actually won more trophies than he did. He was a wonderful teacher, or a wonderful person, and only recently retired as Department Chairman at Weber; Department of Communication Chairman. Also, two of my students, last I heard were there: Becky Sharb…. Becky… Oh, I didn’t review the names… but two of them are now, I think, they’re both, they both they have their doctorates, and I’m not sure of their rank. But, wonderful young women, that actually helped me in a couple of 16 my classes when they were students. And so, that’s a real pleasure to see people, who were your students, do well. One of the things, that I am now thinking about that; when I first became the Chairman of the Speech Department, I wanted to bring something to Weber State. What would it be? Okay, radio broadcasting, KWCR. Began the radio, got funding from the president, we started KWCR. Earl Sanders was our first technical person. We developed a curriculum in radio broadcasting. Then later, Bill Sanders became the director of broadcasting. No relations, same last name. Then after him, Raj, Dr. Raj Kumar; though, at first, he didn’t have his doctorate. A wonderful man from India who had tremendous background in broadcasting in India; and was in line to be the head of their national broadcasting program, but he chose to come here and become an American citizen, and his family; wonderful family. As I think about the people, I keep thinking wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. One of the things that we did too was to develop a curriculum in television broadcasting. And I worked very hard to, unsuccessfully, to bring broadcasting, video broadcasting, television, to Weber State. At one point, I really stuck my neck out, which I did a number of times. I went to see Dr. T.O. Smith, the Superintendent for Ogden city. I had already talked to President Miller about our doing of broadcasting, live broadcasting at Weber, and he wasn’t interested. So, on my own, I thought, I’ll just go down and talk, I shouldn’t have done this, to Dr. Smith. So, I was sitting Dr. T.O. Smith’s office, and, essentially, he offered us their broadcasting facilities, and the equipment, and everything. My idea was to 17 have the Ogden City Schools, and the Weber County Schools, both of whom had live television instructional programing for their students, take two thirds of their budget, save a third, get the same programing and have Weber State students and faculty do the programing that they have currently. I thought, what a wonderful training, and T.O. Smith said, “Well you can have our channel 9 broadcasting facilities. But I will have to talk to President Miller about this.” So he called President Miller on the phone. I was sitting there in his office, where I shouldn’t have been. I heard him say, “Bill” William Miller, “Well, I’ve got Ben Noid in my office.” And so on, “Well, are you interested in taking over our broadcasting facilities?” I was sitting there with a sinking feeling, oh boy, I’m in trouble now. Anyway, President Miller said no, but later, we did do some broadcasting. Prior to that time, I had been the host on a series of half hour productions called “Weber State College Presents” where we explored various departments, like the Art Department, that was a natural; Farrell Collet came with his paintings, and we talked about the Art Department. As well as a simile cast with… Len Allen and… what is it? The radio station. We had a simile cast video over channel 9, and on the radio station. The interview thing, you would have a guest, like we’d have would have Jeff on our program. I was the producer, the director, punching buttons for camera shots, and things; which was fun. But, occasionally Len Allen was not able to be the host, so I had to be the host. And, it was interesting, for me, how self-conscious I became. I’m on the camera now, I really felt self-conscious. Took, probably, ten minutes before I could really relax. We did 18 that for a whole year, 30 programs, I don’t remember how many there really were. To try and show that we could do broadcasting. Didn’t work, but it was fun trying these things. But, not all of them worked, of course. I wanted to mention Dixon Cloward again, and the curriculum committee, the school college wide curriculum committee. Because, I was kind of proud of us. There was a proposal to give college credit for high school remedial courses. Students were coming to Weber who weren’t prepared with the basics of English; composition, and so on. Also in mathematics, they needed remedial classes in order to be able to take college level class. Dixon and I, out of the committee, were the only ones who thought that is not a good idea. So, we spoke against it, we voted against it. It was passed anyway. Then, a few years ago, others looked at that and said, “We shouldn’t be giving college credit towards graduation, for high school-able classes. Let’s stop this nonsense.” Twenty years later, I don’t know how many, so I felt vindicated. That’s why I said I felt kind of proud of us, we tried not to do it. It wasn’t everybody was of the mind to do it. That was changed. As far as debate is concerned, the debate coach that I hired first was Bob Mochi, that was probably in 1965 or ’66. I say, I hired, but I didn’t hire anyone, I recommended his hiring. He was a wonderful Japanese American guy; he is smart, he was a lawyer, his family owns a Chinese restaurant here in town. He, just, was a great guy, I could see him as the first Japanese American governor of the state. I mean, I really, I would’ve been very happy to support him on that. And, on one debate trip, he went to California, and on the way back, just outside 19 of Lovelock, Nevada, they had a terrible accident, auto accident. And he and two students were killed. One of the students was Mary Clark, the dean of faculty Dr. Clark’s daughter, and I had her in class. It was a terrible time. I was doing something in the community, and I got a call, so I found out. I talked with Dr. Monson. One of the hardest things I have ever had to do was go to Dr. Mochi’s wife, with Dr. Monson, and tell her that her husband had been killed. We, prior to that, had called their bishop, and their neighbor lady had come over just to visit, and a doctor was on the way. She was, I don’t know, about five or six months pregnant also. It was just a terrible time. So, all wasn’t sweetness and light, and so on. Somehow we get through those bad times. Through the years, I worked in the community, because part of our job as, responsibility, as a professor, is to be involved in the community affairs. I spent six years on the advisory board for the Red Cross, two or three years advisory for the Ogden Rescue Mission, and then over 20 years on the advisory board for the Salvation Army; and felt very good about that. Then, a long time ago, back in the seventies, I also did a pro bono, no that’s not quite right. Well, I didn’t get paid, but the Community Action Program could use my participation in doing things for the Community Action Program, to request money from the Federal Government. Anyway, I was able to be helpful in bringing quite a few dollars into the community. One of things I did there was to give workshops on problem solving. Neighbor council leaders would come and take these free classes. A very simple process of solving problems. You can solve any problem with this process. But, 20 the key is defining the problem. Well, for instance, ‘I don’t have any money’, that’s not the problem. The problem is that you don’t have a job where you’re making money, or whatever. You have to include the-what is the problem, or- not ‘I don’t have any money.’ That’s where most people stop. But, anyway, I had people coming up- it’s very gratifying, for a teacher, to have people come up on the street and thank me for this or that, because it worked for them. Now, it may be that the solution for the problem doesn’t work, you go back and redefine the problem, including, that aspect of it. And so, you go through the process again. It was fun. It was enjoyable being involved with community people. I also was involved in the Head Start Program. Not as a prime mover, but working with the Head Start teachers, to help them in what they were doing. And go down to where they would had the program in the basement of a church; off Wall Avenue and about 30th or so. Again, I learned a lot about people from doing this. These were ladies, well… I don’t think there were any men involved at that time. Who, some of them, only had a sixth grade education, and here I am, coming from a college area. Course, I blow my own horn here; I was somewhat successful, and it was interesting to see other professor come down, literally down, into that situation and talk to these ladies. Without any conception that they weren’t communicating, I never said anything to them, but I could see, these were very polite people. They were very nice, they would nod their heads, but I knew. I knew they’re nodding their heads but they don’t understanding. But the person, 21 the other professor had no idea. I’m sure I wasn’t as effective as I thought I was, but it was very rewarding to be part of the community. I enjoyed that very much. I wanted to mention that as part of this because many of the faculty members did the same thing. I mean, that was part of our job, was to, for no charge, to talk to people about whatever it is we should be talking to them about. One of my things that I did get paid some money for was an area of Parliamentary Procedure. If you know anything about Parliamentary Procedure, you can imagine trying to teach that class to college students… Boring! As part of my human potential experience, my experience, I learned what motivates most people is having fun. If it’s not fun, they’re not interested. So, my teaching became fun, as much as I could make it. So, in Parliament Procedure, I developed approaches that would make it more fun. We formed little clubs; one of the things we did in a class of 25, or so, we’d maybe have five clubs. And then the club would write a constitution using parliamentary procedure. I got a call once from the American-, the local chapter of, The American Association for Medical Assistance, the AAMA. And was asked to do a one-day workshop on parliament procedure, down town someplace; which I did. I think I didn’t get paid for that. It was very successful, they like it. So, I was invited to be the entire convention program in Albuquerque, New Mexico; two day program doing parliament procedure with the southwestern regional convention, with all of these ladies. I didn’t know if there were any men there, but almost all ladies. And I did. They wanted to be able to be more success in their national meeting that was coming up. They were going to have a national meeting. They had been very 22 unsuccessful the last national convention or two, and they wanted to elect one of their members as president. Well, anyway, it worked. I never heard of-, I suppose there are conventions where only one person does all the presentation. I had never heard of any, I’d never been to one. So, there I was, in Albuquerque, they were very appreciative. They were very well represented in the National; and the person they wanted to elected, was elected to the line to become the president nationally, and they elected two other representatives. So, that made me feel pretty good about the whole thing; as well as I got paid. That’s always nice. It was during the summer. Overall at Weber State, twenty-eight years, spanning the time from 2,800 students to whatever, 15,000, and from essentially being a junior college to becoming a university, has been a really great, great experience. And, President Miller, I go back to him, needs to, continually, be given credit for setting this up. Because he tried to hire as many PhDs as possible, so that Weber State, for years, had a much high percentage of PhDs, as a four year college than anywhere else in the country. And it finally paid off, even though the University of Utah and Utah State did everything they could, politically, to hold Weber down, to keep financing away. Basically, it’s what they did. That’s just my un-political view. But it didn’t work. But, it didn’t really hurt Utah State, they’ve grown, University of Utah, I guess, has grown. But, our geographical location was such that we could hardly help but grow here. And, we have some wonderful programs at Weber. I’ve told people, for years, that you can get as good-, and I really believe this, as 23 good of an education at Weber as you can anywhere if you spick the professor. Not putting anybody down, but my feeling was that, in each department, there was at least one outstanding professor that was as good as anyone anywhere. I suppose you could say, “Well, Einstein...” Basically, I feel that’s true. And students from Weber have gone all over, and done very well. Some of our broadcasting students have gone on to careers in broadcasting, and I don’t know who else… The first year we were a Communication Department, I think we graduated two or three people as majors in communication. I haven’t checked the statistics, but now, I think, if you put journalism, public relations, and so on, all of these areas together, and add them, I’d imagine it’s the hundreds even; I mean it’s just a lot. And, that makes me feel good about being part of being Weber State and helping the growth, as well as meeting so many nice people. I didn’t mention the bowling. I have some stories about being on the faculty bowling league, and the intercollegiate faculty bowling league. We would go, I’ll just mention this, we would go to Utah State, Weber, University of Utah, and BYU on just alternate, just keep going around, on weekends. One a month, actually, not every weekend. And that was fun, we did things for fun, that in those day. I enjoyed that, as well as the Student Union Building, and one thing and another. Do you have any other questions? JS: Once you became the Chairman of the Communication Department, did you have much to do with the Theatrical Department? Because, I know that you are 24 really big into theatre, did you get into direct any more plays? Or anything like that with Weber State? BN: No, I, on a personal basis, just went a different way. I made a decision, I had done almost everything, as a director, that I wanted to do. I wanted to do more, as I mentioned before, in musical theatre. I was a part of our department, John Elsey and Leonard Rowley, Therald Todd wanted to get into the performing arts area, but it just wasn’t… didn’t look like it was going to happen. So, I went a different way in the Speech, and then the Communication. I thought I was creating something. That was fun. JS: That’s really neat. What were some of the procedures with the Communications Department to make it grow? I mean, you said you had to lose a couple of your teachers, but now our Communications Departments has like, I think, six professors now, compared to only two or three professors. So, what did you have to do, as a Chairman, to make that? BN: Well, as a person, and Chairman, what I did in the early days, was to try and develop a statistical justification to adding teachers, professors. So, I would teach extra classes, an extra class a quarter. Incidentally, when I started, we taught a normal load at Weber State, when I came in ’63, ’64, was 15 hours of teaching. I’m not sure what it is now, I think, last I heard, was 12. You have any idea what it is? JS: I think it’s about 12. BN: Okay, 12 hours, well that extra three, in addition to being Department Chair, and then doing the things that I was doing, first Director of the Fine Arts Center, and 25 so on; was a lot of work. But, in addition to that, I would teach 18 hours, or six more than a normal load now. I would point to that, as showing that there was a student demand for the class. So, some of those classes were on a temporary basis. Oh, and that was for developing curriculum. I would go to the Chairmen to request a class, in our curriculum, and they’d say, “What justification do you have for this?” Well, I learned that I’ll get justification. Well, we tried it this quarter and this quarter, and we had so many each time. Then usually that helped to build the department. And if you have courses that are building, and student demand, then you got to get the faculty. I mean, you can justify the faculty. It’s very difficult to justify to something in advance, ahead of time, just because it’s the right thing to do. If you have a very strong personality, you can do that sort of thing. Incidentally, Dean Stringham, in the School of Allied Health, who began the School of… that whole area, did very well in that respect; very forceful. I don’t know, personally, what he was like; I knew him. But, he was able to build his department, but he had all sorts of justification professionally for people in Respiratory Therapy or whatever it is. I was very much aware of what he was doing, as a member of the curriculum com-, the Big Curriculum Committee, as we referred to it sometimes. Because, he would come in, his department would come, and ask for approval of a course that would only have like five students. No more than five students. Well, overall, the college, I’ll have to make up the figures because I don’t remember, wanted to average twenty-, I’ll just make this up, 25 students per class. Well, if you’ve got five over here in Respiratory 26 Therapy because of the nature of the class, you just can’t do anymore, someone else is going to have to have a lot more students. So, I was very much aware of that, and he usually got what he wanted; and did a wonderful job at building that particular area. A lot of growth, and a lot of people that worked very hard at Weber did a lot of extra things for the community and for the-. But, in terms of building, basically, it was trying statistic showing the need, somehow, for class, classes, and then you needed faculty to teach. And so, we also had quite a few adjunct faculty, I think they probably still do, which was a way to build the programs without as much money; don’t pay as much. It’s been a long time since I was Department Chairman, but I do remember doing that. We also built students. I might as well mention this, several of us like Jay Clegg, who did Readers Theatre, also, I wasn’t the only one, Jay Clegg and I both did these Readers Theatre things, original scripts kind of stuff. We would be at registration time, which, where was it? In the Technology Building, we’d have registration; rows of tables and stuff, and so on. Each department would be represented so students could come and talk about course offerings. I don’t know what you’re doing now in that respect, since you’re so much bigger now. But, in those days, remember when I started, 2,800 students, gradually getting more and more. And so, what we did, we had Change of Major slips, and we, we wouldn’t actually go out and physically drag somebody away from another department, but, occasionally, they’d come and ask for help. And boy would we help them. If it made any sense at all, and we were pretty good at 27 making sense of things, we’d… a student would not know what they wanted to major in. So, we would say, that’s understandable, but you need to do something. Now, we would be very happy to advise you and so on, but, in order for us to be able to legally advise you, you have to be a major in our department. So, even if you just come over for a short time, it’s okay, we’re comfortable with that, and you decide later you want to major in something, that’s okay. But for right now, and we’ll help you, here’s a change, we’ll change your major. You’re starting from just about from scratch, not actually from scratch. But, we were able to influence students to come into our department; other people were doing the same sort of thing. Jay Clegg and I really enjoyed that aspect of helping students. Basically, we were helping them, we weren’t trying to mislead them, but they were lost, nobody was advising them, they didn’t have any help; well come on over… Fortunately, for my conscience, you could, even if you are a minor in Communication, how can this be a bad thing? If you’re going to be a physicist, if you’re going to be a teacher, a politician, an engineer, a football coach; how can being a minor in Communication hurt you? No, it’s going to be a help. I really felt good about our area in terms of being able to help students develop their skills and abilities in communication areas that we talked about. I felt we couldn’t lose on a moral ground or any other way because we were helping people, and I like that. I wasn’t just standing up there lecturing about history, which isn’t, there’s nothing wrong with that, I like history… my doctorate’s in Theatre History, for Pete’s sake. And I took a class in Scandinavian history from Dr. Lee Sather. But, 28 still, you’re presenting information where, in our department, you’re helping people develop themselves. Other departments do also, but I felt good about us. JS: Well I thank you for meeting with us today, and appreciate everything you did with Weber State with helping it grow. BN: Well, I appreciate for being asked to think about it, and try to put things together in that particular context. It’s been fun trying to relive some of these things. So thank you very much.