Oral History Program Maria Parrilla de Kokal Interviewed by Sarah Tooker 23 July 2019 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Maria Parrilla de Kokal Interviewed by Sarah Tooker 23 July 2019 Copyright © 2022 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Beyond Suffrage Project was initiated to examine the impact women have had on northern Utah. Weber State University explored and documented women past and present who have influenced the history of the community, the development of education, and are bringing the area forward for the next generation. The project looked at how the 19th Amendment gave women a voice and representation, and was the catalyst for the way women became involved in the progress of the local area. The project examines the 50 years (1870-1920) before the amendment, the decades to follow and how women are making history today. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Parrilla de Kokal, Maria, an oral history by Sarah Tooker, 23 July 2019, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Maria Parrilla de Kokal Circa 2018 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Maria Parrilla de Kokal, conducted on July 23, 2019, by Sarah Tooker. Maria discusses her life, her memories at Weber State University, and the impact of the 19th Amendment. Sarah Storey, the video technician, is also present during this interview. ST: Okay, today is July 23, 2019 and we are meeting with Maria Parrilla de Kokal to discuss her time at Weber. My name is Sarah Tooker, also present is Sarah Storey. Okay professor, when and where were you born? MP: I was born in Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. I was actually right in the air force base, in 1958. ST: Wonderful. And would you talk a little bit about your early life and some historical background? MP: My parents are both Ricans. My father was born in Carolina, it’s one of the suburbs outside of San Juan. And my mother was born in Ponce, which is the second largest city. So, dad was up at the top, mom was down at the bottom in terms of where they were raised. And my father was in the military. He was in the army for two years and then he made a career out of being in the air force. So, he served his twenty years or so as a veteran. Went to the Korean War, was stationed in Korea for a period of time and did all of that. And as a consequence, we were raised all over. And left the island when I was three and had just bumped around in the United States for a period of time. The only place we were stationed outside of the U.S., we as a family, was Bermuda. Tough. But 2 someone had to do it. Four years we were there. And that was the longest we had been anywhere. You were there about two years and then you moved somewhere else. So, it, it gives you an opportunity to meet all kinds of people and to have all kinds of experiences with different cultures. I like that. ST: So, was there anyone or times that stand out from all of the rest of them? Any people that you met or someplace that was just utterly fantastic that you will never forget it? MP: You know, I think every place has its thing. There’s a—the positive things that you like about it, and the negative things that you don’t like about it. Every place has… I don’t know that any one place stands out more than another. The one that I’m drawn to the most, even though I left when I was three, is Puerto Rico. Because that’s where family is and I think to know who you are, you have to know where everyone has been and what the history is and language, etc. ST: So what made you settle in Utah? MP: My father retired from the military in Homestead Air Force Base, Florida. And that’s not far from the Miami region. And he was concerned about raising four daughters in a very active environment sometimes, be violent—he was thinking. That is why he moved to Utah. Utah had been a place he’d been through and it seemed peaceful. So, he moved out here. That was what brought us to Utah. That’s really it. And I think the reason we stayed here, because the majority of our family is on the island. And when we are not on the island, then we are Philadelphia and we’re Florida and we’re… you know, we are on the eastern side 3 for the most part. But not a lot of Ricans that come all of the way out here to Utah. It’s cold. So yeah, that’s how we ended up in Utah and the fact that my parents were here is why we stayed, I think. ST: Wonderful. So were you encouraged to pursue an education growing up? MP: Yes. I was raised with a father who was really progressive. He had four daughters and I remember that when we were living in Bermuda. There was a couple that my parents were friends with, and I happened to over hear my father talking to his buddy. And his buddy was looking in our direction, we were all playing, all of us kids. And said, “You’re going to go broke. You have four daughters. Four weddings, you’re going to go broke.” And my father said to him, “Well maybe. Maybe that’s where it will go. But they will be going to college.” I’m eight at the time that I’m hearing this conversation. He said, “They will be going to college no matter and that is probably where I will go broke.” And his buddy said, “Why would you send them to college? They are girls. All they are going to do is get married. That’s a waste of money.” And my father said something, I’m trying to remember. But it was basically, “A mind is a terrible thing it waste. My daughters are bright, and it probably won’t cost too much because they will all get scholarships. They won’t know pressure.” I remember thinking, “Oh I’m going to college. I will have to get a scholarship too.” My mother was a pragmatist. And she was just really practical about the world. And from her perspective, you needed to be able to take care of your family because you didn’t know what the future holds. And I remember her saying over and over and again, “What if you marry an idiot? You know, what are you going to do? 4 You need to be able to take care of your babies. Or what if you marry a guy who’s a really good guy, but boom! He dies. You need to be able to take care of your babies. What if you marry somebody who is really wonderful and hardworking and all of that, and there’s an accident and they’re incapacitated, and they can’t do that. You have to be able to take care of your babies.” It was just a constant. And from her, and from him, I think we learned that education was the key to freedom. It would be, it would change the way you would look at the world. And it would open possibilities that you would not normally have. Both of my parents grew up poor. Both of them ended separated from their parents when they were younger. My mom’s mother, my grandmother died when my mom was just a kid. And my father’s father, died when he was just a kid. And those deaths had a major impact in the financial stability of the families. So, when we lived in Utah, is when my dad finally got to go to college. And he came here, Weber State. And there is a period of time when daddy is in college here, Nedia, my oldest sister, Rosa, my second sister and me. And then there’s seven years difference between me and my youngest sister and she comes in later on. And yeah, we were up here on academic scholarships. We listened to that well. So, my parents were not wealthy. But they saw possibilities and those things needed to happen. And I learned from that. I learned that a mind is a terrible thing to waste. And that, you know, and daddy would say, “And you girls are smart.” Not very growth mind set, it’s more fixed. But still, the idea, you are capable of doing things. And I remember Mom would be doing dishes and things and she would say, “Well come here, sit down, tell me about this. Okay, I’m going 5 to cook , you are going to wash dishes, you are going to keep talking about school. What are you learning about?” And then she would ask all of these questions. Whatever it was, you were learning about the American Revolution, “Well what happened to Lafayette? What happened to that French guy Lafayette? Well tell me about that.” I mean, there would be this constant stuff. Mom would also look at our report cards and she would look at the papers we brought home and she’d say things like, “Hmmm an A-.” she did, an A-. “Why did you get an A-? What did you miss on this?” So there was this constant push, the expectation was that you could do it. You could do it. And anything less than doing the best you possibly could, which would be up here, don’t think it’s here because it’s not. It’s up here. Anything less than that was unacceptable. So, she would push for that. And we did. We were all, we all finished school. Three of my siblings, or my three siblings became teachers in Ogden City School District. I became a therapist. Something that my parents found puzzling. I remember my mom saying, “You know, when you have problems, you come to the family. That’s where you go and that’s who helps you. You don’t talk about your stuff everywhere. And if you encourage people to do that, then they would go home and work things out and not pay money to see you, to work on things outside of the family.” And I remember thinking, “Well that’s great if you have a functional family, have you thought about not having one if you don’t what would happen?” And eventually, I ended up here. But we all came, we all went to Weber State. 6 I graduated from here in ‘76, I did my four years in three. I didn’t go in the summers. I would take like 21 credit hours and yeah. I would not recommend that. And I know that you’ve shared some frustration, but I would say to a kid that hasn’t quite made up their mind yet is “Thank God, you have had an opportunity to take different classes because now, I look forward to going to classes in my retirement.” Because there is something about being, I guess too focused and too, I don’t know. I had my master’s degree by the time I was 22. But that also means, there’s a lot I wasn’t doing, if that makes sense. So, I mean, it’s not like a regret it, “It was terrible.” But if I had do overs, if I knew then what I know now, I would be saying, “Well maybe you should not say you’re done in three years. You know, take your time, take your four to five.” Which is more realistic now because they are working and doing five million things. And take some of these other classes just because they would be fun. Just because you are curious, just because. Because you are right, sometimes you find something and you think, “Oh that’s where I want to go.” So. It’s along answer. ST: No, that was perfect. So, you spoke a little bit about your mom and the psychology field, but what started your interest in the field? What was it that just made you go, “Oh that’s where I should be?” MP: A couple of things happened. One was that I had applied to the nursing program. I liked people and I was one of the people that if you are on a bus, people come and talk to you and they tell you all kinds of stories. And I like stories, I love hearing people’s stories and trying to see how it is that they got to this place that they are now. But I was also interested in the medical field. So I 7 had thought of going into nursing. And I applied for the program at Weber State. We’ve always had a really good nursing program. And I got accepted as an alternate. And my ego was deflated. I know, isn’t that pathetic? My ego was deflated because they didn’t accept me for real into the program. And I knew that I could apply again, and what have you, and I chose not to. I went for the other thing that I was interested in psychology. And I really gave it a lot of thought. I thought, “How much do I really want this? How much do I really want to work in the medical field? What is it that I find appealing about that?” And I thought, in addition to the biology, it again was doing something that helps people and you have a chance to talk to them. But I also thought in the medical field, unless you have someone that’s, that has a really serious problem, your time with them can be pretty brief and pretty intense and very physical. You have limited time to do much of anything else. And I thought, “I really like the other two.” So, by the time I accepted, I had already moved into psychology. That’s what I did, and I liked it and I still. I think it’s pretty cool. ST: So besides teaching at Weber, where has the psychology field taken you? Like from you starting your program here at Weber to now? Where have you been? MP: I went to graduate school in Fort Wayne, Indiana for my master’s. And then I decided to work in the field for a while. And I did youth work forever and day. I liked working with kids, with adolescents and stuff. I did that for a long time and that—my focus in therapy was kids. But you also end up seeing parents. You don’t see kids by themselves and usually the parent, if there’s a parent that comes, it’s usually a female. So, you do a lot of work with women as well. And I 8 did some work that had to do with battered women. I was a program director for CCS here in Ogden for, what? About six years. In Price and in Ogden. And with that program, I did individual family and marriage counseling. I did problem pregnancy counseling and adoptions. And I did referral and family assistance. There was a lot to learn with that. It was very fulfilling but by then, I had a kid. And you remember that sage advice my mother gave me. I was in a dysfunctional marriage and I got out. And it was good that I had a background because I could take care of my kid. But I ended up coming to Weber State and worked in the multicultural center. I was the first Latina, Latinx now. Latina that they had hired in the multicultural center. And I was there for a year and then I moved into the women’s center. And I was the first person of color they had hired. That was in the 90’s and then yeah. 1990… yeah, like 1990. And then I moved from there, I was in the women’s center for about six years and they had opportunities openings in different departments. And I applied to the psychology department. The reason I applied to the psychology department is because I had offered to teach adjunct and was told that I couldn’t because I had a master’s degree and not a Ph.D. and they were in the process of changing policies. And I applied, quite honestly, so that they could see what my background and experience was… were. I thought, not really move from the women’s center here, but just so that they could see that some of us who did not have a terminal degree, had a wealth of experience and had done a lot of stuff and could really teach an intro class. 9 But at any rate, so they offered me the job and I was surprised. And then you can’t say, “I just wanted you to see that you should really be looking at other things.” I’m a clinician by trade and I’ve been doing therapy for a long time. I mean, you can’t just say, “I just wanted you to see and to think about this.” I came over to the psych department and I was working on going to grad school to get my Ph.D. in UC Boulder. I had remarried, I married someone that was really good. And his, he was visiting with my daughter. They had stayed here, and I had gone to Boulder and the weather changed. And they hit ice and John was killed in that accident. I came back to Utah with my kid and was planning to return to grad school. I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And was diagnosed with cancer. I did, what I think of is the cancer project. You know, chemo, mastectomy, all of that. And it seemed like every time I moved in that direction to go back, something else would happen. You know, you lose a breast, then you lose your uterus, and you’ve already lost a husband. I just sat there and thought—and I know this illogical thinking and I will own that. I just thought, “Every time I move in that direction, I lose something. I only have two of so many parts. I can’t do this anymore.” I was done. I was done with that. And the department chose to keep me anyway. I stayed. I raised my kid, my grandkids are here, that’s a big thing that keeps me here. My mom died and my dad is 91. My siblings and I share responsibility, which is what propelled me into retiring. I wanted to retire while I was still the cool grandma. I was thinking, because then they start growing and then they are 10 not as fast you are. And then it’s not as, you’re not as fun. I wanted to do that. And you know, fair turn around, my parents made a lot of sacrifices for us to be able to get to where we did. It’s fair that we take turns and help with that process. So that’s two out of three of the possibilities my mother gave me. I thought I’d quit dating after that. I thought I had the best of luck here. But any rate, that’s the answer to that, I guess. ST: I’m sorry for your loss. I understand. I lost my husband three years ago, and you just swear them all off. So I understand. So what mentors or resources did you have available to you in your program and career? MP: Here at Weber? ST: In general. Like in your career. Are there any mentors that stood out in your time going to college or in any of your jobs that you’ve had? MP: You know what, and I haven’t thought about this until you just asked this now. But one of my realizations is when I’m thinking of mentors, they have been men. And probably they have been because, for example, when I came to the psych department, the majority of professors who were here, taught me. And they were all white men. Pretty much for that. Well yeah, because when I came into the psych department, I was the first person of color they knowingly hired. We had one more person of color here, they just did not know that for years. For years. So yes, I was the first person of color they knowingly hired. And there were three of us women that were hired at the same time. And one of us, ended up leaving before she had tenure and stuff. Moved, spouse, and that kind of thing. One of 11 us became the chair of this department. And I became the chair of the women’s studies and was the first person of color to do that one. And I’m the first person to have done two terms and then one more semester. I don’t know if that was ideal. But any rate, be that as it may. The mentors that I had were men. Because there weren’t a lot of women. And certainly, there weren’t a lot of people of color. So, they were men. ST: Do you think that that has influenced you in how you teach and mentor others because you are a woman of color and so… I’m trying to think of how to say it politely without—not that white male, you know, that has… that you have experiences and knowledge and things like that to mentor people in a different way than they do. Do you think that that influences you in how you teach and how you go about things with students? MP: Yes. When I first started teaching, one of my colleagues—the one that was mentoring me here, McLaw, had said to me, he was asking me what my relationship with students was like and you know, how was I encouraging them. That kind of thing. And I said, “Oh, well”. And I do target the students of color, and I should target the female students. And if you have a B- or less, then I send you a note to come visit me. And then we talk about what you could do etc. And he pointed out something that was quite valid which was, “You’re not doing that with your white students?” And I thought, “Huh.” The assumption that they would have an upper hand because they have more power isn’t always correct. Especially when you’re talking about issues of socioeconomic status. So, you’ve got students that are disadvantaged for that reason. So now, I bug them like 12 when they have less than a B-, and I try to do assignments that are relative to student success in my intro classes. There are five assignments they do that are gen ed. Kind of retention assignments. I did that because of the disadvantage that they could have. You don’t know what’s going on. Sometimes it’s just that they are being kind of dingy and they are off focused. It’s like, “La la, I’m here.” And I just think, “Well gal, if you’re putting money into this. Or someone is putting money into this. This is an opportunity. This is the key to freedom. You need to take that and go with it.” But by the same token, you also don’t know what else is going on. If they have responsibilities, they may be a kid, but they have responsibilities for younger siblings or they are working so many hours, or whatever. You just don’t know where they come from and what the struggle is for them to get through. But I take that pretty seriously. I want them to be successful. ST: I’ve heard that about you. MP: And then I give them $20 so that they nice things about me. ST: What resistance and battles have you faced as you progressed in your career? And what dynamics have you seen change? Like how you were saying when you were here and being taught, it was mostly white males. MP: Some of that was really difficult. Some of that was really difficult. When I first came into this department, I would hear things like—I told you there were three of us females that were hired. I don’t know if I said, well we were hired at the same time and the dean said that the hope was that at least one of us would survive. 13 And it wasn’t that—he wasn’t saying, “They’re going to be mean to you. You know, brace yourself.” And it wasn’t necessarily that they were being mean. That they were calling us names or whatever. It’s things at the dynamics that happen in the workplace. Like, the people have been there for a while, the boys club. They hang out together. They’ll go to lunch together, they’ll go golfing together and they don’t invite and that’s not a big deal. Or so it seems because everybody is different, and they have different interests and what have you. But if you’re talking about departmental issues and you excluding this group and then you think when you’ve come to a meeting, “We are going to have a conversation about this.” And decide as a department, sometimes it was very clear that the decision was made long before you got to be part of the conversation. That was hard. We had a faculty member that was offensive and managed to survive. I was thinking, “Just because you’re tenured doesn’t meant that you should be here.” But at any rate, yeah. He would say all kinds of things and different ones of us got it for different reasons. I got it because I was a person of color. So I—he would tell me these jokes where we would be the butt of those jokes. And say things about people not being able to be successful because of what we were, because of our packaging. He also said things like, “I don’t know why our department has become so pretty now.” That on the surface doesn’t seem like it’s such a bad thing. But I thought, “Yeah, that’s why we were hired, because we’re all so pretty.” But it’s like that kind of thing that lets you know, you don’t belong here and what you add to this is gender and not in a positive way. He was hard. He was really hard to deal with. He would say 14 things periodically. This happened, I had the misfortune of being in the main office when O.J. Simpson was acquitted. Do you remember him, O.J. Simpson? Oh yeah. And the radio was on and so I literally was in the office when that happened. One of my colleagues said, “That is messed up.” And he walked out and this one says, “Well you know what that means, Maria, don’t you?” And I said, “No.” Because I never knew what it meant when it was coming from him. But he says, “That means that a minority in this country can get away with murder.” And I thought, “That’s interesting.” It wasn’t even a black man, you just put us all in here that we can all get away with murder. And I said, “Really? We can get away with murder.” Because the thought was appealing. No, I’m kidding. Don’t put that in here. I said, “How? So I could get away with murder?” And he laughed and said, “Well not you.” And I was thinking, “Because I’m too dumb? What is it?” And he says, “You don’t have any money.” And I said, “Oh. So maybe there’s something about economics that we’re not talking about here.” And he says, “Well you know that minorities commit the majority of crimes.” And I said, “Would that be blue collar crimes or white collar? Because I’m pretty sure you have a quarter market on that one.” And he says, “It doesn’t matter. They’re criminals.” And I said, “Oh, so when we… when I go in the parking lot, does it make you nervous. Are you concerned that I’ll rip off one of the hood ornaments on your car or I’ll key your car or something.” And he said something about, “It makes me all nervous when you are all in the parking lot.” And I thought, “Oh, well you’re going to be really nervous for a long time.” I mean it was that kind of 15 stuff that was… and I think even though we had some affirmative action and that kind of stuff that existed. And there was a real reluctance to handle someone like that. He’s tenured, he’s been here for a long time, I just remember the president and the vice-president saying to me, “You can just hang in there. They will soon all retire and then it will be okay.” I don’t want to present that they were all that way or that the majority of them were that way. I think they were more sins of omission than commission. You know, “We didn’t think to invite you.” Or “Yeah, you’re new, but we don’t know what to do with you guys, so we don’t invite you to do any of the things that we are doing.” And even Bill McVah who was my mentor and had taught me. He was a child psychologist, he was a clinician too. But anyway, he had taught me when I was a student here. I hadn’t been here very long. We are talking one day and I said, “Oh I’ve got class now and I want to continue this conversation. Do you want to go to lunch?” And there’s hesitancy and then he says, “Okay. Okay.” And I said, “Okay, well I’ll catch you after class.” And when I encountered him, he says to me, “Now, this is the way it’s going to be. You and I will drive separately to the restaurant. We’re each paying for our own meal and we will come back separately.” And I said, “Because you’re leaving? You’re going somewhere?” “No I’m coming to the campus.” And I said, “Okay, your big geologist. You know, background in and you are environmentally concerned. We are driving two cars from here to go to the same place and then come back? Why?” And he says, “This is… it’s just the way it is.” And I remember thinking, “Did something 16 sexual just happen here?” I remember thinking that and I remember thinking, “What am I wearing? Is anything showing?” And, “What did I say? What did we talk about?” And I’m not a flirtatious person, so I was thinking, “Nothing. I don’t do that kind of thing.” Well at any rate, when we came back from that and we talked about, we became really good friends. And I finally said to him months later, “I’m going to tell you how offensive this was. Why did you say that to me? Did you say that to the guys? Do you say that to them? ‘We are going to drive separately, each one of us is paying separately, we are coming right back there and to there.’ Do you say that to them?” “No.” “Well, why did you say that to me? Did you think I was coming onto you, is that what you thought?” “No! I just didn’t know what you were doing.” “Was there anything that I had done that did that? That would suggest that I just wanted to talk about what we were talking about. I thought this was a professional kind of thing. I thought that’s what faculty did.” So yeah, he and I would teach psych of women and gender together at some point I said, “You know, I get a lot of flak for this. I’m too minority oriented. I’m too gay oriented. And I’m a feminist, as if that is the bad ‘f word.’” At any rate, so I said, “Will you teach this with me, because you have same ideology as I do. It would be nice to hear it from you. You’re a white Mormon male, it would be good for them to hear that from you. Much as it pains me because they should be hearing that from me and accepting it, I somehow think they will receive it better.” And I got less of those comments in evaluations. But I noticed that he would get these comments that would just irk me. He was such a sensitive man. Such a sensitive guy. Such a good guy. And I thought, “Why when we are talking about 17 these things, am I not a sensitive woman and a good person. No.” No I. I’m doing okay. And you’re just the good guy here, that’s not fair. ST: The dynamics are very… it’s always interesting how you can… it’s kind of like in your household. When dad says, and then mom says, and the kid is like, “Oh yeah, well I do it because dad.” You know what I mean? Like I know what to mom and…” And it kind of just spilled over into the work place and into like education and everywhere. It’s like everybody has these… and they probably thought, “Oh this man is talking about women and gender stuff… woo! He’s so wonderful.” Because they never talk about that because some of our professors in the anthropology program are like, “Absolutely not, what we talk about that stuff.” MP: Oh, we had one that cracked me up. I was sick one day and I called in and I said, “You need to take the class if you don’t mind, because I’m not well.” Or my kid wasn’t well, and I had to stay home. Anyway, he says, “Okay, what are we talking about?” And I said, “Biology.” And he says, “Biology?” I said, “Menstruation.” He says, “Oh. Well, we can talk about…” I can’t remember what, “Then we’ll talk about this when you get back.” And I said, “So you can’t talk about menstruation? Did you not talk to your kids about this?” He says, “No, no, I can.” I thought, “I thought we were in this together.” He says, “Oh, okay.” So anyway, we were laughing later because he says, “I came in and I sat at the table in the front, and I said, ‘I’m going to tell you all about menstruation, everything you need to know.’” I thought that was good and it’s not like I was 18 perfect. I think just because you’ve had these experiences and stuff doesn’t make you perfect. I remember Bill telling me once that, you know, you’ll talk about how the early research did not include women and people of color and so you weren’t in that early research. And he says, “Well neither was I.” I’m looking at him and thinking, “You’re a white male, it was all about you.” He said, “It’s not about me, it’s not about me now.” And I thought, “Oh you’re older. You’re an older male, they don’t care about you. And if you were a young male, we wouldn’t care about you either.” “You’re right. It was an age group. I wasn’t thinking about that and thinking that some folks would not be included or that there’s some power differentials that occur for different reasons for disability or for socioeconomic status, accents, and so forth. But anyway, it’s when I was thinking, for me, team teaching was helpful in that. And in working in the women and gender studies program, having opportunities to team teach with other faculty from other disciplines was also helpful because you’d get a different perspective about situations that have occurred and the history of what happened with women or what happens with women, etc. SS: May ask a quick question? ST: You can go ahead. SS: So when you were teaching women’s studies and you were getting these reviews, these evals back that were saying, that you were too feminist and too this, and too that. Were you students predominately female at that time? 19 MP: They were. SS: That’s pretty shocking. MP: They were. One of the things that I noticed happened in teaching those courses—the diversity courses. Periodically, I would have a female student say to me, “This class is really hard.” And I would think, “Oh my gosh, no it’s not. No, it’s not. I do a lot of things that facilitate this. What is that is so difficult about this class?” And what I kept hearing back was, it was a different way of thinking. And sometimes they would talk about how, you know, “I was raised with brothers and I just thought things were pretty fair. I did not know…I thought with sexual harassment, that women were whining about things and that they were maybe seductive and regretful after something happened. And I didn’t realize I had been sexually harassed. I didn’t know that that’s what that was called, what happened to me when I was working at a burger place, or something along those lines.” It was like they were learning terminology for experiences. Some of which they’d had, but had been raised in an, I guess kind of a little protective bubble that said that the world is fair. And if you do things, you’ll get rewarded if you do the things that you are supposed to, and only bad things happen to bad people. And here they are looking at things and seeing this inequity and seeing it from a historical perspective and seeing what has happened to themselves or happened to their moms or siblings. And the men that I’ve had in those courses have also been interestingly—they haven’t all been sensitive, but neither have the women. But they have also been interesting and sometimes very strong 20 allies in this. And also trying to sort this through, and I think that’s what makes courses like that difficult. Not necessarily the rigor, right? I think it depends to on the professor that you have, how rigorous it can be. But it is this changing of perspective, philosophy, reality you thought you had that isn’t there. That’s been the biggest complain I’ve heard from students in terms of this class being so hard. ST: That’s interesting. What does a typical semester look like for you? I know you are retired, so does that mean you get to pick, “Hey, I want to do four classes this semester?” Or…? Well in class or…. MP: I have freedom now that I’m retired, but when I was a faculty member, because I did not get the terminal degree and go through the normal tenure process. As an instructor, I have taught eight classes in a term. ST: Wow. MP: Yeah. ST: That’s a lot. I couldn’t keep track. I’m good at maybe, six? MP: It has been hard where I will teach like three. I would teach like three intro classes and then there’s a class—a practicum class that I team teach with a colleague and there’s a… it’s a senior. It’s directed reading, it’s kind of… ST: Yeah, we have those in anthropology. MP: It’s a senior seminar kind of thing that goes with that one. And then I taught developmental courses, so I did child and adolescence and then I would get one 21 of the diversity courses. So Psych of Women and Gender or Psychology of Diversity. ST: Wow that’s a lot. MP: That was hard. ST: So what committees or organizations campus or otherwise have you or are you a member of? MP: Now? Almost nothing. ST: And have… or I should say have you been a member of? MP: Oh my gosh, some of them, you know, they vary from my early years to being on the academic calendar committee. I just remember that one in addition to several other ones and saying to my coordinator at the time in the women’s center, “Do you know how many committees I’m on?” And she was saying, “I know you are on quite a few, but you bring something to the table and you…” And you know, she’s going on about, “How bright you are and how…” I mean, it was very very flattering, but I’m not that dumb. I remember saying to her, “Here’s the latest committee I got and now I’m in trouble because I said, ‘No’ to it. It’s the academic calendar. Let’s be really honest about why you need me on that committee.” I says, “You guys are bean counting. And then you do me twice because you’re female and a person of color. Yay! We’ve got… I’m on every flipping committee there is.” But some of it, I bring on myself because I like being involved and there’s exciting things that are happening or there’s things that you want to be part of the change to. I’ve sat on committees and that I know are 22 Mickey has said to me in the past, “You need to learn to say, ‘No’ to this.” “But this one is important. I’ll do this one for a year or whatever.” So a million. I don’t know, I’d have to really think about it. But I have been on some of the usual ones like The Academic Standards and things like that. But a number of ones that have to do with Diversity. Diversity Conference and so forth. Women’s History Month and those kinds of things. As well as academic ones that are connected to your department because them to the department to the school of social sciences and to the university at large. And then we have more diversity and we have more females and people of color, then it’s not quite as—I’m not as needed in it. That’s kind of a good feeling because I think, “Oh, good things are happening.” ST: That is good. So, what recognition have you received for your accomplishments? I see your little thank you things and there’s the one on the wall. MP: I really like that one. I don’t know there’s a whole stack of stuff that didn’t make it in the box when I was pulling things out. I’ve been recognized by the Native American Council, by Latinos in Action, by the Latino/Chicano Hispanic Group, The Hispanic Area Council, Black Scholars United, Services for Students with Disability, different things that had to do with women that. When Carol Merrill was here, I got something. I don’t know, but they have to do, I think the diversity stuff is important. Also the first generation. And I do things with the schools. One of the things, one of the courses I taught, that I really liked—I liked them all. But one of the ones that I really liked has been practicum because that’s when 23 students get to bring theory to life and it’s exciting because I’ll be listening to them as they’re working with kids or different populations, we have them working with. And I can hear my colleagues voices in a sense because they’ll be saying something and I’ll think, “Oh, you worked with Luke Shaw.” Or that’s a thing, or whatever it may be. But it’s exciting to see the work that my colleagues do and people from other departments and how that just comes to life and I like that. ST: What advice would you give to students/women starting in your field? MP: Several things. I think it’s unfortunate that we still need to tell people that you have got to be the best you possibly can. You cannot slack in anyway because we all pay for it. You have a responsibility to be successful. Not just for yourself, but because you are someone that students will look at and say, “That’s someone that’s like me and they are doing this.” I think it’s important to know where you came from and why you are doing what you are doing. I think it’s more than rising the corporate ladder. I think what you do and what you think has an impact on the next group of people who are coming into your field. I think it’s critical that you are ethical, and you have a strong work ethic. That you are a responsible person, that you are approachable, and that you know, you kind of cheer them on because they are the next ones. ST: That is true. What are some of your favorite memories that have to do just with Weber State University? MP: I have laughed a lot. Sometimes in the classroom, they crack me up big time because of how they see the world and what they have to say. Oh, my 24 goodness, one that came up that I’ll share with you that you probably don’t want to include in anything. While teaching an intro class and it has—someone digressed and I’m listening to them and it was one of those times that they are talking about the right to bear arms. And they get really passionate here in the west about that. So, I’m sitting here thinking, “It has nothing to do with what I am talking about.” But it has taken energy and they are going back and forth and I’m watching the volley on. And one of the students says, “I really strongly believe in the right bear arms because no one has a right to tell me what I’m going to wear. If I want to wear sleeves or I don’t want to wear sleeve, I should have the right to do that.” ST: Awesome, that’s fantastic. And I remember, I think there’s the silence as we’re all trying to process this. “I really strongly believe in the right to bear arms and she’s very passionate about this.” And then she adds that and I’m thinking, “Okay, don’t laugh. Don’t laugh because her colleagues are laughing and I thought, “Okay. The right to bear arms is not about attire. It is about gun control. Arms being guns.” “Oh!” she says. And of course, they are laughing louder and I’m really trying to do that poker face. She says, “I am so blonde.” And she was blonde, and I was thinking, “Oh you cannot say that. You cannot say that either. Blonde people are not ignorant. We just caught you off guard and you probably weren’t listening to the rest of the conversation.” And now, it’s a good time to move one to whatever it was we were, we were going to talk about. But anyway, they have some of that because I think some of those students are adolescent still. Adolescent and immerging adults so they are kind of in that. But I also 25 welcome the fact that we have a lot of non-traditional students because they bring a wealth of experience into the classroom. And I’m not sure if it’s age more than years of college. I tend to think it probably is. But you know, when you are young, and you think you have all of the answers. Well, you don’t think it, you know it. You have all of the answers and then as time goes on, you realize that you don’t. And you’ve got your experience in life that are valid experiences but it’s very narrow. You’ve not done an awful lot, and then you’ve hit some of the people who are more seasoned. So, to have people brining that in to the class too is good to. You’ve got this energy that comes from, “Yes, I’m right out of high school.” But you also have people who have weathered a few things and share a few life experiences and it’s kind of neat to bring them together because they have powerful traits that they bring in for each other and experiences as well that I think open us to being, perhaps, more understanding, more tolerant of each other. Maybe I’m lying and I’m just saying that to myself. But I hope—so I like that and I like when there’s an idea, a concept, and this was happening when I was working in, student—we called it student services then. They keep changing. But anyway, you’d be working with students and you’re working on whatever the project is. You’re bringing in people who are different from each other—different ideas and what have you. And they have some concept, something that they’ve experienced. Something that they are sharing, and they are getting feedback on and it’s like the lightbulbs go on. It’s different ways of looking at things. And I 26 grow too from that, that I’m learning things that I didn’t know before. They’ll ask questions in class of things that I’ve never thought about. So, I have to go look it up. And as I can see, “I don’t know, no one has ever asked that.” I had to find that out. I like that, it’s energizing. I also like when I was theoretically leaving Weber State, because theoretically I’m gone. I was thinking about the journey that’s been here. Because in September, I will have been here 30 years which is awhile. And as you know, I did my undergraduate here too. So I’ve been tied to this school for a while. But, no one is an island, as cliché as that may sound. I have had many people who have played different roles in my life. People have been really kind to me. Really kind. And who have helped me just by being who they are, you know, where you have people like Predi Kumar who came out of the English department and when I was getting involved in women’s studies, she and Sandra Powell and Kathryn MacKay and Gloria Worst, Nancy Honstad, I mean there are all these in that particular area, there were a lot of women who came in and were supportive of different kinds of things that I did. But also, had men who have been very supportive in different ways. I don’t know if you ever got to meet Larry Helmrick, he was a psychologist in the counseling center. Well, we became pretty good friends but Larry used to shave his head and when I was doing the cancer thing and my hair was falling out. I didn’t want to watch it fall out because I thought, “Oh you do this, and all of this hair comes out with it.” I asked him to come over and shaved my head and he did. It’s that kind of thing. I also remember telling Bill McLaw and Eric Amsville, “My hair is growing!” And I had like this much, “Look! I’ve got hair!” Oh yeah, just 27 different things that they… they were just really encouraging. Different people on campus on a personal level as well as on an academic level. “We are doing this project, we think you will be good.” And in the beginning, I think I was always hesitant because I thought, “Because I’m brown and I’m female and you want to drag me into this so you can hit your quota.” Only to discover people were asking you for a number of things, “No, that’s not it because of this and this and this.” “Oh, okay that I can help with.” That has been good. We have some incredible faculty and staff and people that have done—oh when my husband was killed, the good one. When Johnny died, my car was totaled. He was in it, in my truck. And my Weber State decal was in it. And I remember I’m out in a parking lot, I’m not even thinking about that. And one of my students is ticketing my car and I said, “Oh I don’t have a decal.” And he says, “Yes, and when you don’t have a decal, you get a ticket.” And I said, “I understand, this is what’s happened. This is what’s happened…” I mean I just took it. I didn’t have any energy for anything. And he said, “Well give me that back.” And I said, “No, I know I don’t have a decal. I mean what you are saying is true.” And he says, “No, give me back that, and I will take care of it and I’ll get you a decal and I’ll look at all of that stuff.” And then I’m chuckling because the dean of social sciences, Sadler, had called me down and he said, “I’m trying to think of what we can do to help you be supportive in all of this. Is there anything you need?” And all I can think of was, “Well I had this happened a few days ago.” And he says, “Oh we can get you a decal.” And I said, “I have one. One of my students did that for me.” You know I was thinking that there were things that people did 28 when I had no hair. And I was—I had, you know I was doing chemo and radiation and all of that. And I was lopsided. I remember asking my students because Sadler said, “We can get you replaced. You know, and you can go home.” And I have to listen to myself, you don’t know what that can be like. That sounds really depressing. Bill McVaugh came off sabbatical. I had never heard of anyone doing that. He gave up his sabbatical during that time so he could come, and team teach with me in more than one class, so that in case I was too tired, there were times that he’d say, “I wanted to hold fingers and say, ‘How many am I holding?’” And he would just say, “Do you want to go sleep in your office?” “Yes.” “Go and I’ll tell you what happened.” And I had another colleague who taught a class with me and they were just, they were wonderful. And I remember saying to my students, “If you think that it would be better to have just have someone else come in, there’s no consequence here, and I just need to know so that we can make the arrangements. Or can you deal with, ‘All my hair is falling out and I’ll be lopsided.’” And my students were saying, “No, you can come.” They were really really patient. And they’d send me helpful emails. Like one of them said, “I think your wig has bangs, and you should pull them down.” But I also thought just that they were really kind. My colleagues were kind, you know they were, I think that is one of the things I liked about Weber, was that they did things like that. But it isn’t always when disaster befalls you, it’s on other things where you can pop into someone’s office and say, “I’m wondering about this.” Or, “I’ve heard you’ve done this, will 29 you tell me about that? Because I don’t know or give me suggestions.” Or in this last project, the Puerto Rico project, I said to a colleague—I said to her, “I don’t think I’m as good a person as you are. Okay, I know I’m not.” I think if you said to me, “Russia is where I’m from and I know you don’t know the language, but will you go with me to do this? And we can take some students?” I would say, “No, no, can I donate somewhere? I don’t want to be that uncomfortable.” And she said, “Yeah, I’ll do that.” And we—you know, so and the dean got involved and my colleagues got involved and there was money that was raised. There were things that I asked for and they just, they just did. Someone donated jump ropes and someone donated diapers and things. I mean there were just things, and we were able to go to this school and do this work in Puerto Rico after the hurricane had hit. And I think Mindy’s only question—my colleague was, “Okay, you’re retiring, what about this whole thing that you’ve started in this? We’ve started, but you’re not leaving because you’re leaving me with this.” But, it’s that. It’s that. I know that there have been women and men who have helped me with so many different things. People have been very good to me, they have. And if you are telling them that you want to do something for your students, I’m impressed with what people will do. It doesn’t mean that they say, “Yes” right away. They see you sometimes and think, “Oh… okay what is it? I’m not doing that, but what part of it do you think you can do. Or can you tell me how I can do this better?” “Okay.” You have that, that kind of stuff that’s here that is just… I bleed purple, can you tell? I do, I think the world is going to be better because we have some students that are amazing. And they 30 are going to do well because we have some faculty and staff that are incredible. It’s not that we are perfect, right? You know what I mean? Because there are people and you think, “You scare me. I don’t want to spend a lot of time with you.” There’s always a few like that, but for the most part there are some pretty amazing people that we’ve got here. ST: Yeah, I agree. How do you think women receiving the right to vote, shaped or influenced history, your community, and you personally? MP: Oh my gosh, we wouldn’t even be in school if they had not. And there wouldn’t be—I think of a lot of the social services that exist were motivated by women. When I think about therapy and the fact that you have more women who come to therapy than men do. Some of it seems logical. If you have kids and there’s problems, and women have been tasked with doing a lot of the interactions about this stuff. Then you have women, but even in terms of relationships with men, you still have more women that will come in for therapy because we teach women how to do the, “Hi honey, how was your day?” And they track everything—the emotional stuff and whatever is going on. So they move stuff. They get things to happen in religious institutions and in sociocultural institutions as well wherever they can. And sometimes in subtle ways and sometimes in more and more recently and in very very powerful ways as well. I think if women did not have the vote, if women did not get a chance to be a part of the political system, and if they don’t get a chance to be a part of every aspect of that political system, then our society will be at a loss. I think you need whatever gender someone is who is interested in our community, in our schools, 31 in our whatever’s to be a part of that. And women do hold up half of the sky, you know? I think that’s a critical piece. ST: That’s wonderful. SS: And beautiful. You just lived such a wonderful amazing life and you just have such a beautiful aura about you and I just want to personally thank you for allowing us to meet with you because I really enjoyed your time. MP: You’re very kind. You’re very kind. SS: And I’m very sad I didn’t personally take a class from you. I think it would have been a wonderful experience. So. MP: Depends on the day. ST: Okay, I think we are good. SS: Good.