Oral History Program Ali Gustafson Interviewed by Nute Rands 13 August 2019 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ali Gustafson Interviewed by Nute Rands 13 August 2019 Copyright © 2022 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Beyond Suffrage Project was initiated to examine the impact women have had on northern Utah. Weber State University explored and documented women past and present who have influenced the history of the community, the development of education, and are bringing the area forward for the next generation. The project looked at how the 19th Amendment gave women a voice and representation, and was the catalyst for the way women became involved in the progress of the local area. The project examines the 50 years (1870-1920) before the amendment, the decades to follow and how women are making history today. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Gustafson, Ali, an oral history by Nute Rands, 13 August 2019, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Ali Gustafson 13 August 2019 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Ali Gustafson, conducted on August 13, 2019, by Nute Rands. Ali discusses her life, her memories, and the impact of the 19th Amendment. Reagan Baird, the video technician, is also present during this interview. NR: The date is August 13, it is 10:39 am. We are interviewing Ali Gustafson. I am Nute Rands, on camera is Reagan Baird. Thank you so much for doing this with us today. So our first question is when and where you were born? AG: I was born in Valdosta, Georgia, December 3, 1998. NR: Is your family from Georgia, or is that just where you were at the time? AG: My dad’s Air Force, and so, we’re from Minnesota, but that’s just where we were. NR: Is your dad still in the Air Force? Is that how you ended up in Utah? AG: Yeah, that’s how we ended up here, he retired two years ago after twenty-one years of service. NR: Oh, very nice for him. AG: Yeah, it was awesome. NR: When you were a girl who were some of the women you looked up to and why? AG: I really liked Rosa Parks, simply because she was stubborn in her ways and she knew what was right and she stuck to it, that’s just incredible. There’s things that people are told are wrong which aren’t wrong, and like, based off of your ideals I think if you stick to them and you stay strong in them, I think that’s what matters. It defines you as a person. And I mean, of course I look up to my mom. She is like the sweetest person ever and I always strive to be like her, she’s just very 2 kind and wholesome and she just takes everybody under her wings and that’s an incredible thing. NR: So what led you to this love for Rosa Parks? AG: I think she was just something that stuck out to me. One of my biggest things is, it was hard moving to Utah at first, because fourteen years ago, there wasn’t as much diversity as there is now, which is kind of crazy to see how much it’s changed already. It’s huge strides for Utah and it makes me happy, but there still needs to be more diversity. She took something in a situation and she just stuck to her guns and she just did what she thought was right. She’s just someone that I always remembered through history as just an incredible woman, and powerful. NR: Were you pushed to pursue an education? AG: It was just something that was kind of expected. Like, you’re always told to go to high school, you graduate, and you go to college. But college is just... it’s amazing, like you get to meet so many different people and your whole sense of knowledge is expanded and it’s based off of you wanting to learn, not you just being told and forced to go to school. No one can force me to come to class at 7 AM in the morning, I have to make myself do that and so I think that says a lot and builds character. NR: Do your parents have an education? AG: Yes. So my mom did accounting, she got her degree in that. And then my dad did his two years with his GI Bill and then he’s going back to school right now and getting more done. 3 NR: Do you think your choice of education and career would be different if you were born in a previous generation? AG: I feel like any generation is kind of different, you look at like Baby Boomers or before then and even like... my grandpa is seventy-six and he never went to college and stuff, so it just wasn’t something that was assumed to happen after high school at that point, it was a good thing to go but there were definitely more trade routes and stuff, so I think if it was prior I’d probably just look at trade and stuff rather than reaching for more education. Either way, as long as you’re contributing to society, that’s what matters. NR: So what is your education and/or career? AG: I’m finishing up my Associate’s Degree in Science right now and I’m just a few credits short of that at the current moment, and then after that I’m going to go into the EMT program that we have here. So I’m super excited about that. NR: That’s great. So what made you chose the EMT program? AG: It’s just... I’ve done a desk job and I can’t stand it, I have to be constantly moving and being active is something that’s important to me, but overall helping people. I just think it’s so important to help people no matter what form it is, because if we can’t help each other then what are we really doing? It’s just a way for me to be active and help people and I’m not really squeamish and so those types of things won’t really bother me and I’m really well under pressure and so, seems like a good route for me. NR: How does your first job compare to your mother’s and/or grandmother’s? 4 AG: My first job, I worked at Bed, Bath, and Beyond, and my mom worked at a hair salon, and she was their receptionist. And she loved it because she got to talk to everybody, and so I guess that’s kind of a similar idea, the customer service type of it. And my grandmother did actually the same thing, she was in a beauty salon and she fell in love with it and so she just kept working there and she ended up being a beautician for her whole life. And my mom really loved cutting hair and she learned a lot of the tricks from the ladies that were there and she just loved being around people. It’s kind of different because it’s like customer service and it’s more like big production, I guess, but it’s just nice to be around people and so I think that was kind of something that stuck with our family, we like talking to people. NR: Awesome. When was your first job, how old were you? AG: It was right after I graduated from high school, so I was 18. I mostly just babysat and watched dogs before. Sports kind of took over my life while I was in high school. NR: Ok. So you would say independence was something that was a center-point of how you grew up? AG: Yeah. When we were growing up we were taught to be independent and self-sufficient, because you have to spend a lot of time with yourself regardless of if you’re married or if you want to live independently or if you want to have someone that’s just your friend live in your house or whatever, you have to spend a lot of time with yourself, and so it’s important to be self-sufficient and be a strong person regardless of if you’re male or female, because you have to be 5 around yourself constantly, and so if you can’t do that then I feel like other people don’t want to be around you if you can’t live with yourself. You have to be able to provide for yourself if you want to provide for others. So it’s just kind of something you learn. NR: What are some of your motivations for your education? AG: I think it’s just the helping people. Right now I work at a nonprofit and I absolutely love it. For me it’s not my personal goals, per se, it’s just that I want to be able to contribute to society and I want to be able to contribute to other people as well and I think that’s a huge thing. You have to look past just the personal side of it and push for other people as well. NR: So, was this love for helping people and interacting with people, was that also something you were pushed into as you were growing up? Was it like an underlying goal? AG: I think so. I grew up in a very religious home, we grew up strongly Lutheran and so, and we were always taught that you want to show other people compassion, and that’s a huge part of life, my family’s just huge into just taking anybody in that we work with, or simply that we met in a store, and so it’s just important that each person gets whatever they need, even if it’s just a simple conversation or if they need a home-cooked meal, that you’re just able to provide that if you can. NR: So, I don’t know what Lutheran is. AG: That’s ok. NG: Can you explain? 6 AG: Yeah, so... this is always just kind of the simple... You remember that one day in history class when they’re talking about the Catholic Church and the Reformation? Martin Luther, who nailed the Ninety-five Theses? Lutheranism is what came from his teachings of reforming the Catholic Church. It was kind of a big protestant religion after Catholics and a lot of people kind of stuck there and it branched out from there. NR: So, as a woman, how would you define courage? AG: I think courage as a woman is different even from like five years ago, which is kind of crazy, because if you look at how things socially were happening five years ago, it's not the same thing. People just seemed more tolerant, and I feel like recently because of some things that have been happening, with politics and things like that, women have kind of found that this isn’t ok and we should be saying something about it. There’s a way to be content, but when you know that something’s wrong and that people are talking about things they shouldn’t, it’s not right and we should have more power, it’s having that courage to stand up and make a movement, because anyone could kind of sit there and just deal with it. It takes that one person to kind of get up and say something and then it takes a strong follower to get up and be there with them. And so courage it just standing together because the more voices you have, like there’s a lot of women in this world, women over populate men. If we just all stand together there’s so much that we can do, it’s infinite. And so courage is just being there to support each other, to know that something’s wrong and be able to say something for it. 7 NR: So you spoke on how things have changed in the last five years. How has that affected you? AG: Five years ago, I mean I was only sixteen, but I definitely did not think of all the issues that were going on. I didn’t realize how big of a wage difference that women have, or just simple things that happen day to day that I didn’t realize were wrong. And I shouldn’t have gotten treated that way. College is a huge part of that, too. I have found my voice with other women and with males who support me and support women in their cause and I’ve been able to find that it’s good to say something. If you feel uncomfortable, you should say something. If someone’s saying something to you negatively, say something. Because the thing is, ignorance is not stopped if you just simply comply with it. You have to speak up and be like, “Hey!” You don’t have to talk down to somebody, but you can have a conversation and try to educate somebody rather than belittle them. And I think that’s important. NR: That is important. What does the term “women’s work” mean to you? AG: Is this like a saying? Women’s work? I can’t say I’ve heard it before. NR: Oh, that makes me very happy that you don’t know what it means, because it was a really common saying back in the 1950’s and 1960’s. The women were told, “You are going to get married. You are going to go home. You are going to take care of your kids and whatnot and do women’s work,” meaning cooking, cleaning, teaching, nursing, things that “only women could do.” Women’s work. AG: [Makes annoyed noise.] Well. Heh. Women’s work. Let’s see, I am a very stubborn woman, to say the least, and if anybody knows me then they know this; 8 I don’t stand for that. It’s equal work, and especially in a marriage or a partnership. Mm-mm. You are equal partners. You can expect I will go mow the lawn and you can cook, or we can switch it up, but the thing is, work is not male or female. Anybody can do anything. So, take that. NR: That really does make me happy that you didn’t know what the word meant. AG: Yeah. Ooh. If anyone tries to say that to me, I’ll be like, “Excuse you?” NR: There’s only a handful of women that actually knew what it meant. AG: That’s good, that’s making me happy then. NR: How do you think women’s rights are going to change going forward? AG: Women’s rights, I feel like are getting steam in the same way that they did earlier with women’s suffrage. One of the huge things is women’s suffrage didn’t get their momentum to move until other groups started getting theirs as well, and so it’s kind of sad that it has to be codependent I guess, but if everybody can get on the same page where everyone deserves to be treated right, that’s the important thing. And I think if people start realizing one group is being mistreated, that others are as well, and so I feel like women’s rights is getting some steam because more women are going to go in as Justices or in the Senate or in Congress, and the more we can just get out there and be the strong women we are. Women are starting to run more for presidential office, which is incredible that we don’t have to be timid and think just because we go there as a woman we’re going to get voted out. Like, whether you like Hillary or not, she’s a woman and just the fact for her to be on the final ballot was an insane thing for women, and even if you didn’t like her politically, it was incredible to see that women 9 made that stride. It’s just amazing, the strides we’ve made so far. It’s definitely not what it should be, but it’s getting better and more women are realizing to stand up for what they believe in because more people are talking; and the more people talk, the more that other people feel comfortable to say something. And so, I just really hope that we just keep at it and everyone keeps pushing, because we shouldn’t just settle for something they give us, we should push for what’s actually correct. NR: So, to backtrack just a little bit, what are some of the challenges you’ve faced in your academic career and... career career? AG: It was really unfortunate, but I had an educator tell me—it was in a class of like twenty people and there were only two girls in it—that women are house-makers and baby-makers. And I don’t think I’ve ever been more upset in my life. And I... I don’t know, it’s very easy to be explosive in a moment like that, to have somebody say that to you flat out, to your face, in front of a class when they’re supposed to be an instructor. You kind of, you have to decide in a moment, what’s going to be more powerful, and so instead I actually just wrote my essay about it. And then I turned it in to him and I made him read it in front of the class and to see some of the other people’s faces, it made me feel like I made the right choice. Rather than something in the moment, instead still saying something, just when it meant more. The fact that a difference was made and that he was talked to and that the campus stood behind it made me feel like I was supported as well. That’s something that gives me confidence in Weber State and this campus 10 is incredible. Having Brad Mortenson as president is just awesome, and Chuck was amazing as well. We’ve got a good thing going here. NR: Sorry about that experience by the way. AG: Oh, I was so pissed. But it’s okay. NR: How would you change women’s rights for future generations? AG: Let’s see, for future generations... If I were to have a daughter, I think I’d want her to feel comfortable. I think that’s a huge thing like, a woman’s body is a woman’s body, you know, her brain is her brain and you should never be belittled in any aspect. And I think women’s rights is going into something and you shouldn’t feel worried because you’re a woman. And I think the huge thing is I shouldn’t have to go to a place and have it be like outnumbered six-to-one of male to female, and I shouldn’t be concerned in that scenario, like I should feel confident that I’m just as equal as the next. And I think that’s a huge thing because it can be a little nerve-wracking now and it’s just kind of sad. I just would like future generations to have dollar-to-dollar wages. I shouldn’t be paid seventy cents for every dollar a man makes, that seems outrageous. But it seems, hopefully, we’ll make that stride really soon. Women should just feel comfortable that anywhere you go you’ll be protected, fine and safe. NR: What’s some advice that you would give a younger generation of women, or even an older generation of women? AG: Be strong, be who you are. Like, if you want to do something and somebody’s telling you you can’t do something or you shouldn’t do something, who cares? Like, I mean, do what you want. If you want to go do something, do it. If you want 11 to go be the president of a college, do it. If you want to go be an NFL coach, do it. If you want to go do anything, do it, it doesn’t matter if you’re a woman, in fact, that should empower you more, because we’re incredibly strong. You’ve got other women behind you, so just do it. NR: So if you could go back to the original women’s rights movement, back in the 1960’s and 1970’s, would you do the same thing they did? AG: Oh, heck yeah. I know myself and I know that if somebody says something and it upsets me, I will say something. Those women are incredible, in a time when it was completely not acceptable, they just said, “I’m going to do whatever I want and this isn’t okay.” I think that would empower me even more to be like, “Heck yeah, I’ll stand with you!” They were just so strong and so fierce, and I think that’s what you can expect and that’s who women are. And so, ooh, that would be incredible to just like walk with them and just have conversations with them. I would love that. NR: Now the final question. How do you think women receiving the right to vote shaped or influence history, your community, and you personally? AG: That’s a big question. Women getting the right to vote is something that should have happened a lot sooner, I feel like it shouldn’t even have been a question. I mean, I guess, looking at the way history was kind of set up, it’s what it is unfortunately. If I didn’t have the right to vote, it would be very upsetting to this day, ‘cause there’s so many other changes that have happened and the fact that we only got our right to vote a hundred years ago, like that’s just insane. And so those women are just incredible, and to have strong women to look up to and to 12 know that I can make little changes. If they’re able to stand up to a country, then if I’m not being accepted the way I should because I’m a woman in a classroom or in a social setting in a business place, if they can stand up to a whole government, I can stand up to an employer. And so I think that’s something that inspires me personally, and I know that it’s inspired my mom, and I know it’s inspired my grandma. And I’ve had very strong female role models to look up to and I’m very grateful for that, and I’ve been very fortunate that most of my bosses have been women, and I think that’s something that empowers me as well, ‘cause I’m like, “If they’re up there being these strong, incredible people, running a business? I can do that.” And not just me, being an example for other women, I’ve had the ability to coach volleyball for younger kids and just being able to show them, even at a young age and be like, “You’re incredible, you can do whatever you want to do,” I think it’s something that’s important because if we just keep telling people, “You can do anything,” then they can. Power of your mind. I’m grateful for them and for the change that they made and the inspiration that they’ve been for our generation, trying to keep those changes. NR: When it comes to employers, there are many women where they’ve had points where the employer made it feel like they would lose their job if they tried to stand up for what they wanted, even just being treated right. How would you advise women in those situations? AG: If you can’t say or do something that you believe in strongly, no matter how good of a job it is, is it really that good of a job if they’re going to belittle you like that? You shouldn’t have to change your job, but the thing is, you should be able to 13 speak freely. So if you talk to your employer or you talk to someone about them and they don’t respect you, then is it that good of a business? I feel like then you should be a strong person and say what you think and say what you believe, and obviously within means. I’ve been very fortunate to be supported in my ideas, but if I wasn’t, I think that would just upset me so much. Everyone has their limits and everyone has their lines, and I feel like that would be mine. If I tried to say something and they crossed it, then I would probably reflect on, “Is it a good business?” And I’d find better. Go work for their rival company and do better and make them envy that they ever treated you like, ‘cause the thing is, you deserve better if you’re getting treated like that. NR: Any last thoughts or anything you’d like to say? AG: Women are incredible. We’re strong and there’s so many, you look around and women are just beautiful people. We can run a business and we can run a household, and we can do it on our own or we have somebody supporting us. Just the incredible things I’ve seen from a single mother, from a working mother with a spouse or not, we can do incredible things, and so if we stand together we can do even more incredible things. So keep it up. NR: Alright, thank you so much for doing this for us. AG: No problem.