Oral History Program Ann Holdaway Interviewed by Sarah Storey 3 September 2019 Oral History Program Weber State University Stewart Library Ogden, Utah Ann Holdaway Interviewed by Sarah Storey 3 September 2019 Copyright © 2022 by Weber State University, Stewart Library iii Mission Statement The Oral History Program of the Stewart Library was created to preserve the institutional history of Weber State University and the Davis, Ogden and Weber County communities. By conducting carefully researched, recorded, and transcribed interviews, the Oral History Program creates archival oral histories intended for the widest possible use. Interviews are conducted with the goal of eliciting from each participant a full and accurate account of events. The interviews are transcribed, edited for accuracy and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewees (as available), who are encouraged to augment or correct their spoken words. The reviewed and corrected transcripts are indexed, printed, and bound with photographs and illustrative materials as available. The working files, original recording, and archival copies are housed in the University Archives. Project Description The Beyond Suffrage Project was initiated to examine the impact women have had on northern Utah. Weber State University explored and documented women past and present who have influenced the history of the community, the development of education, and are bringing the area forward for the next generation. The project looked at how the 19th Amendment gave women a voice and representation, and was the catalyst for the way women became involved in the progress of the local area. The project examines the 50 years (1870-1920) before the amendment, the decades to follow and how women are making history today. ____________________________________ Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. ____________________________________ Rights Management This work is the property of the Weber State University, Stewart Library Oral History Program. It may be used freely by individuals for research, teaching and personal use as long as this statement of availability is included in the text. It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: Holdaway, Ann, an oral history by Sarah Storey, 3 September 2019, WSU Stewart Library Oral History Program, University Archives, Stewart Library, Weber State University, Ogden, UT. Ann Holdaway 3 September 2019 1 Abstract: The following is an oral history interview with Ann Holdaway, conducted on September 3, 2019, by Sarah Storey. Ann discusses her life, her memories, and the impact of the 19th Amendment. Reagan Baird, the video technician, is also present during this interview. SS: Today is September 3, 2019 and we are here with Ann Holdaway and Sarah Storey is interviewing and Raegan Baird is recording for us. When and where were you born? AH: I was born in Ogden, Utah in 1960, so right here in this county. SS: So have you been in Ogden your whole life, the Ogden area? AH: No, I lived in Sandy for a while, for about fifteen years. Salt Lake and Sandy area. But always Utah. SS: Always Utah, and so your childhood was here in Weber County? AH: Mhmm SS: So what school did you go to? AH: We went to Lomond View elementary. To North Ogden Junior High and to Weber High. And then Weber State. SS: So you never wanted to leave Utah, you just felt content? AH: My whole family’s here, I love Weber County. I was born and raised in Pleasant View and I have no desire to leave. I love it here. I have travelled a lot, I’ve been to South American, Europe a bunch of times. Spent a lot of time on the Eastern Seaboard, but I like Utah. 2 SS: When you were a young girl who were some of the women that you looked up to and why? AH: Well first off my mom, I loved my mom. She's passed away, it’s been about 20 years now. But she worked, she worked at DDO which is Defense Depot of Ogden, she was the commander secretary. It was really cool and she juggled home and kids and work and I just thought she was wonderful. Well I’ve had strong women in my life. So my grandmother, my mom like I said, as far as in the community I don’t think when I was young there was anybody else but my mom that I really thought about. In school I might have thought differently. I liked JFK’s wife, I liked Jacqueline, but I don’t think there’s anyone, sorry. As a fifth grade teacher I looked up to the women, the suffrages. Like Susan B. Anthony and those guys, but you asked me in my youth so… My mom, my mom. SS: That’s fair because a lot of times the people closest to us are the ones that influence us, so it sounds like she was an awesome lady. AH: She was. SS: As an adult have you had people you looked up to or even like personal mentors that helped you along through life? AH: Well before I became an educator I worked at the phone company and I had women supervisors. There was one particular one that said she was “grooming” me for management, her name was Nancy Pitman and she was very strong, very sure of herself and I was very young. I got married young and so she was really instrumental in me going into the workforce and being successful. Here at Weber School District I have a lot of mentors. I love my boss, I won’t mention her name. 3 But she’s really, really influential and she is really, really good. There’s another one Annette Brinkman who was a mentor for me when I first became a principal and she’s very strong, very sure of herself, very helpful, she helped me a lot. SS: It's nice that you’ve been able to have female role models, because a lot of women don’t have the opportunity or haven’t in the past. AH: Yeah they don’t, and you know most of my - my supervisors have been females. SS: Really, that’s impressive actually. AH: It really is, all the way through me working, they’ve been females. SS: Wow. So you’re a mother… AH: I am SS: And you’re a grandmother, right? AH: I’m a grandma, and a stepmom. SS: Yeah that’s right. So in your experiences from what you have observed with your mother, grandmother, and yourself; how do you think the role of mothers has changed? AH: Well, growing up it was more traditional my mom did stay home for the first ten years of my life and then she had to go to work. So I had the traditional upbringing through most of my grade school, it was in 5th grade that she went full time. When I ended up divorced I felt like nobody did that, so that was really hard. And now I kind of feel like working in a school situation I see that a lot. So it’s changed there’s a lot of single moms, there’s a lot of moms that have to go out and work. It wasn’t that just in my youth. So women are more visual in the workplace. They carry more weight than they ever have before. I still think a lot of 4 the weight of home sits on the mom even though they are still working full time. So I think it’s changed a lot. There is a lot of burden, I think on our women. SS: I agree, well especially with them trying to keep up with everything that’s going on, not just work. It seems like with this digital world we live in there’s just so much going on all the time. AH: No there really is, yeah. I kind of feel like with women to the men, my husband has always been a great help and so was my dad, so I have had really strong men in my life too. But I still feel like the women, especially in Utah it’s a have to be perfect. You’ve got to do everything, you have to, you have to have the perfect kids, you have to have the perfect outlook – appearance, you have to have the perfect job, you have to have just so much to be successful. At least that’s kind of the pressure that’s put on us, and maybe it’s just the one I put on myself but I still kind of feel like in Utah it’s kind of that culture. And women are under a lot of pressure to be everything. SS: Moving on to your education, so as a child, where you encouraged to pursue your education both through high school and then a higher education? AH: I was, my grandmother was an educator. My father was my own high school principal. Yeah, I never sloughed. So education was always a part of what we were going to do. I didn’t get my education early, once I graduated I went to Weber State when it was Weber State College not the University. And kind of messed around and then got married and moved to Salt Lake and never finished my degree. And then when my first marriage ended I had to keep working because I had two children and did not really like that career, but I didn’t have a 5 choice. Then when I remarried my second husband is a hard worker and I was able to go back to school. So I went back late in life, I didn’t graduate with my bachelor’s until my late 30s. And then my master’s about seven years ago. But I always knew I was going to do it. It’s just part of my life and I knew that’s what I wanted to do, all my siblings have their degrees, all of them but one have their masters. So we’re just a family of education and here I am working in it. Pro education. SS: Yeah I love that that your parents encouraged you from a young age, so. AH: It was just what we did. Even my grandparents did, on both sides, we just go to college. Yeah, it was just kind of what we did I didn’t think that I wasn’t going to because… it’s just what we did. SS: I like that, that’s the way it should be education is so valuable. AH: Yup, but you know working here in education, it doesn’t always have to be the traditional University, or the traditional big college that you go to. There’s trade schools and a whole bunch of other things that people can do and they can be very successful. SS: Absolutely, yeah I agree that you need something. AH: And some training. Yeah, and I hope I’ve encouraged my kids to do the same. My oldest boy is a lawyer. So that’s pretty cool, my second son is in college, hasn’t graduated. My daughter is up at Weber State right now. So their all – their all rolling and doing education too, so. SS: That’s wonderful, have any of them decided that they want to go into education like you did? 6 AH: No, and you know my third son is quite the teacher. Yeah, he flies helicopters for the military, but he could do it he’s got that education gene. But no, no none of them went… Oh my daughter teaches piano, does that count? She’s a piano teacher. SS: So you said that you had gone back to get your degree, so once you finished your degree what were your career options? AH: My bachelors or my masters? SS: How about both? AH: Well I always knew what I wanted to do though, I knew I wanted to be a teacher so when I got my bachelors my goal was to get hired, and I did. I was hired when I was a student teacher with Ogden City and then I decided to come to Weber school district because my pop worked here. So then I worked as a teacher for 17 years and decided that I wanted to get my masters in administration. So my goal then was to become an administrator and so I did that too. SS: Yeah, so you went straight into teaching, I mean getting hired as a student teacher is awesome that’s not easy to do and then you just, I mean you just kind of flowed into that, you did not have any hiccups? AH: I did not. It was my goal, my hiccup was when I was young I didn’t finish my degree and I got married early. And that was a big hiccup, I had all my kids and then I went back to school. So I feel like that’s a real feather in my cap. Because I had five stepchildren and my children so we had a total of nine kids, and I went back and got my degree. SS: Wow, that’s amazing it’s a lot harder when we have kids in tow. 7 AH: Isn’t it though. But when you’re focused and when you have decided what your goal is, I will tell you the second time at Weber State was a whole lot easier even with nine kids than the first time. Because the first time I was goofing around. Yeah, well I knew what I wanted to do but I was still goofing around. SS: So you thought 5th grade, did you teach any other grade? AH: I taught 4th. Mostly 4th and 5th some 6th grade. SS: Nice, there’s something to be said for teachers that can teach the little kids but I think it would be challenging, I think it would be more fun to really get into science and all that. AH: Agreed, I taught preschool for a year while I was getting my degree. So I did do the littles and I do like them but I prefer the older kids. It’s my personality, I just goof around and they get my jokes. SS: I love it. So while you were getting your degree you stopped and you got married and then you got divorced and went back to school. When you came back to school you had nine children to contend with, which is a lot, where there any other challenges that you faced? Did you have any problems or conflicts other than trying to take care of a family, which is a huge responsibility? AH: Well that would have been my biggest conflict just the juggling of time, the juggling of mother duties that we talked about. Because moms have to do a lot of the lion’s share of work at home. Money is always hard especially when you have nine kids. So I got the kind of loans that if I worked at title one schools, the government would give you back so much of the loan, so that was helpful. So I had to be very careful with my loans and how I figured the money because I 8 didn’t want to go into debt with nine kids. And you know you have to do it a little bit. But I didn’t want to come out with tremendous debt, so that was a big burden. I remember standing in lines at five in the morning up at the financial building because you could only get a certain kind of loan and everybody wanted that loan. I had a very supportive husband, still have him, and my family is very supportive. So think the biggest hiccup was just managing time. Family and the money. I didn’t have any, there were no obstacles with people I always felt very supportive with my teachers. I have had a good experience. SS: Well and I think there’s something to be said for education, since there are a lot of females in education and it seems like they tend to band together where in other fields they don’t have that. AH: That is true, that is true. And especially in elementary, there are men in education but they typically go to the secondary. Not always, but. So we came through with a lot of support because we are with each other so I definitely made some really good friends at Weber that are still my friends. Yup so we had a good support group. And then the education department at Weber State was fantastic. SS: That was your very first job? AH: I worked at Piccadilly’s Fish and Chips. On Washington Boulevard right by that Ogden sign. The building is still there but now it’s where they do the rodeo, for Pioneer Day. That was Piccadilly’s. SS: That’s awesome, how fun. I’m assuming you were in high school? AH: I was! Sixteen. And then it burned down. Caught fire and gutted the inside, and then I went to two other places and was a waitress. 9 SS: So after high school was your first job with the phone company or was that a little bit later? AH: Yeah, right after high school I married, moved to Salt Lake and got a job at Mountain Bell and AT&T, it was called Ma Bell back then. And I got that job because my dad made me take shorthand in high school. I didn’t want to, I hated it I did not want to be a secretary, I did not want to do shorthand but that is how I got hired at Mountain Bell. Yup, I never used it when I got down there I used the computer, but that’s how I got hired. And then I was there for fourteen years. Yeah, I always hated it. But you do what you have to do, when you’ve got a family. SS: Yeah customer service jobs are hard, being on the phones is hard. AH: Oh so hard. You get yelled at a lot. SS: Okay so well I think this has already been answered so the question is what was your motivation to go into your chosen field? AH: Well when I was in 2nd grade Mrs. Tanner was my teacher, I had good teachers, good strong teachers, and I was sitting at Lomond View and it was a rainy day outside and we were putting, it was in March, and we were putting on the calendar if it was a lion day or a lamb day. You know in like a lion out like a lamb. And I remember distinctly thinking “I am going to be a second grade teacher and I am going to work here at Lomond View.” And from there I never changed, I never did do second grade and I never taught at Lomond View, but that’s when I decided I wanted to be a teacher and I never wavered. SS: So that teacher really influenced you quite a bit. 10 AH: Yeah, yeah. But I didn’t think about Mrs. Tanner so when you asked me early on, yeah it was in her class, second grade. SS: Sometimes teachers just really impact you. AH: Yeah they do. SS: What a cute memory. So is there a time you could think of that you feel like you were brave at work? And I’m sure this happens a lot especially being the principal now. AH: Brave at work? Like in any situation? SS: Yeah, just something that sticks out to you. AH: Well brave at work, there’s been a couple of situations where for security reasons at school we either get put on lockdown or lock out. And as the administrator I have to show a brave face and keep it together because everyone looks to you. So there’s been one at a prior school and then one time here that we were put on a lock out. It can be pretty scary. So yeah, but at Mountain Bell you know just brave not to yell back to the customers. But there was nothing scary there, so that might be the only ones I could think of. SS: I think you’re probably being really modest about this because I’m sure you have angry parents that you deal with on a regular basis. AH: Yes and I will tell you working at the phone company and getting yelled at most everyday was very helpful because I’ve learned. But you know most of the time I don’t find it really hard with the parents because they just need to be heard. And their little ones are here. And I’m a mom so I get it, so. SS: Well you do an awesome job. 11 AH: Well thank you. SS: As a woman how do you define courage? AH: Well personally, for me, courage is letting my kids go. Courage is seeing them struggle with life, with hard things. Seeing them trying to get their degrees and trying to figure out the money and not trying to give them everything but letting them learn. Courage sometimes is just getting up every day. And coming and putting a smile on your face and facing the world, because it’s not always easy. SS: I think that’s a great answer cause it is hard to let go and then watch them fall. AH: Yeah it was easy when I could tuck them in at night and know right where they are, but now that their adults courage it letting them be an adult and courage is not, “I just want to step in and tell them what to do still.” You know it would be easier if you just let me handle this for you. But sometimes stepping back is for me, it can be a hard thing to do. SS: So, how did you manage to balance all of these responsibilities that you had? AH: Well some days I didn’t, some days it was hard and there were tears but, my family is great. I trained the kids to help so my children are hard workers and I am proud of that because they got in and helped. My husband is a hard worker and he helped so we were able to manage that. I was able to go part time when I was at school so that was very helpful. And then my kids there’s a span between them because of the step kids and so they would walk and pick up the little ones from school. I didn’t start student teaching until my youngest was in kindergarten. So I kind of planned that. Timed it so that I didn’t have to leave her very much. So we all pitched in together so I’ve been lucky. Yeah really lucky. I’ve got a 12 great family and great support and truly without them I wouldn’t have been able to do all this, so. SS: What a great family structure that you have. AH: I really do, that’s why I’ve never left their all here we all still live close to each other. My older sister always wanted to leave. She used to tease me because she said “You’ll never leave, you’ll never leave.” And I didn’t and she did, but she came home. And now we’re all here. SS: Yeah, I love it. I’ve noticed that people think that if they leave they’ll find what that they're looking for. But, I’ve noticed that if you can’t be happy where you are, you won’t be happy anywhere. AH: That’s true. SS: You make your happiness. AH: And I’m all about positivity, because life is not easy so it’s the way you look at things. SS: Absolutely. What does the term “women’s work” mean to you? AH: Well “women’s work” in the past and even maybe nowadays would be staying home, raising the kids, you don’t have a job, clean the dishes do the house work and I totally don’t agree. But I think that’s how it’s been in the past. I would get my little hairs up if someone said that’s “women’s work” because I don’t think that’s true. I think it’s been that way in the past. Do you know that little Rosie the Riveter? She hangs on my fridge, she’s out of fifth grade because I taught American history. When the women had to go to work when the men were all fighting in World War II it kind of switched around and fortunately now “women’s 13 work” is everything, it’s the job and it’s still the home stuff, unless you’ve got a really strong family. Yeah, well yeah I’ve never been the traditional woman that stayed home. I wanted to, I did want to say home when I first had my children but it never worked for me. So my work is at home, my work is with my children, my work is with my 450 kids here; those are my children. And I’ve always worked outside the home so traditional “women’s work” that’s not me. And it never has been nor was it my mother. For the first part like I said until I was about ten she did that and then she had to go to work too. So we are workers so, “women’s work” is whatever we want it to be. SS: Especially in your position, how do you think that education empowers women? AH: Oh… it makes you more confident, it makes you more aware of the world, it gives you better opportunities for growth, better opportunities for jobs. I think I’m in a traditional man’s job, a little bit, being a principal, but I would tell you there’s a lot of women that are elementary principles even in the secondary. So, education like I said earlier you don’t have to go to University’s you don’t have to go to big schools. You can go to a trade school or even just become an apprentice and learn the trade, but that is a part of education is learning and growing and I think it should never stop, because it just makes you better, it makes you more aware, makes you smarter. So never stop learning, come back to school. Yeah, and I think it’s like reading, once a kid learns how to read and they find the right book they just read, read, read and the become better, better, better. So education is the same thing once you start with it and you start learning and you get that bug, it’s just fun to keep learning. It opens so many doors. 14 SS: How do you think that women receiving the right to vote shaped history, the community and yourself? AH: It gave us a voice, it let us be heard, it instead of just being you know “women’s work” typical stay home don’t do anything, now we have a voice. So for me, when I turned 18 oh I registered because I wanted to vote. And I’ve been very active in the political area because I have a say. I want to have a say I want to be heard. So it was a big deal and it still is, it gives us a voice. SS: It’s only been a hundred years and I think especially the younger generation thinks it’s been so long, but it really hasn’t been. I mean a lot of women’s rights only really started to become available in the 70s, which was not that long ago. AH: Well and see for me I grew up with educated people and women were never, I was never treated as a second citizen or that I didn’t have a voice. So I grew up doing, and knowing that I could do what I wanted to do. That I did have a say and a voice and it wasn’t until I got into education and started learning that you find out not every woman came through that way. And that I’ve been very blessed and lucky, but I do like being heard I do like that we have a say, that we are valued, that we should be valued. That we’re smart and we can handle things, we’re tough women are tough. SS: Yeah that’s true I think society would fall apart without us. AH: We need both sexes because that’s how we get around. But women are stronger than I think they think they are and can do more than they think they can, you just got to get in and do it. 15 SS: Do you have any words of wisdom or advice that you would pass along to young women that are coming up and trying to get their education and deciding what to do with their life. Do you have any advice especially from a woman's perspective? AH: I would tell them to stay positive because it is going to be hard. It's not always easy. There were tears in my masters there were tears in my bachelors because you know it’s hard, it is hard. And life gets in the way, but don’t ever give up you keep trying and keep a smile on your face. Sometimes, I don’t really like this saying but I’ve used it before “fake it till you make it.” Because one of those days is a day that you are going to get up and go “I do not want to do this.” But you have to push through that day and then the next day is going to be a little bit better. So a positive attitude, stay healthy the best you can, you know and keep trying don’t ever give up. Yeah, know what your dream is and it may change a few times but smile and keep going. SS: That’s good thank you, thank you.